More Killings In Southern Thailand

[dave111223]

Surprisingly though, human rights advocacy groups who would normally scream foul play the loudest when a Muslim was killed by government forces were completely silent over the Wednesday's massacre. None of them joined the protests to condemn the insurgents. Did the silence amount to double standard practice?

Yes it does seem like some of these so called Human Rights groups only speak up when bad things happen to bad people.

[ThaiGoon]

The more you read about this the more obvious it becomes that less and less people are accepting what there animals are doing. As I said the animals are choosing their own fate. If they can’t coexist, and they can negotiate there is little choice left as to what to do with them.

I absolutely agree with you John. They will implode sooner or later. It seems like more and more Thai Muslims down South are refusing to corporate with them. The more hideous crime like this they commit, the further they are isolating themselves from everyone else. This will prove their undoing. When the Thai gov't and military decide to finally rain shit on them, they won't have any place to hide. The other Thai Muslims won't protect these animals like they did before.

[blaze]

The more you read about this the more obvious it becomes that less and less people are accepting what there animals are doing. As I said the animals are choosing their own fate. If they can’t coexist, and they can negotiate there is little choice left as to what to do with them.

I think every body on this board would want to see the killers caught and punished - they would like to see the terrorists neutralized- by what ever means nescessary- but some of us recognize that anit-terrorist measures, if not handled intelligently and with a clear understanding of the social mileu in which they occur, simply breeds more terroism. Death squads have not worked in Colombia- nor, I venture to say, in most places they have been deployed- the largest death squad in the world has created a whole new generation of terrorists in and around Iraq- so what does the government do?

Well, three days ago, Gen Sonthi reversed an earlier decision to pour more troops into the south, saying that undercurrents in Bangkok required more military attention. Do you support his analysis?

By ascribing to these people traits which are non human we conveniently allow ourselves to negate the very likely possibility that specific though misguided actions can create from perfectly normal nice guy humans- the very blood thirsty terroists we wish to anhiliate. Surely we must all wonder whether these events would be so horrible had Tak Bai and Kreu Ze not occurred. Not to mention the tortures, murders, disappearances that rumor treats as normal police tactics in the south.

One state sanctioned murder of an innocent, univolved Muslim family in the South, and then watch this thing pick up steam.

[Jai Dee]

PM to replace NIA chief

Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont said Thursday that he was seeking a new National Intelligence Agency chief following the latest massacre in the deep South.

Surayud said he did not plan to sack NIA director Lt Gen Wipoj Srinual, but the Defence Ministry wants him to be transferred back to work for the ministry and Wipoj himself wanted to work in the position for only six months.

Surayud unveiled his plan to change the NIA chief just a day after Muslim insurgents massacred eight Buddhists in Yala on Wednesday.

Source: The Nation - 15 March 2007

[andook]

So when will we see any of these guilty people arrested and charged then? It would also be good to hear what the supposed insurgent groups have to say regarding this atrocity, and why are they bombing mosques as well, for example? Do we know who was behind the New Year bombings yet?

Since these troubles really kicked off in earnest a few years ago, there has been no clarity of who is responsible for these killings. First it was "bandits" and then "troublemakers", only now is it separatists and radical islamic "terrorists" that are behind it all.

I do not believe one word of the <deleted> that is spouted from the official channels of Bangkok. This latest atrocity is terrible indeed. RIP to the victims, and let the bereaved know the truth too...

[John K]

The more you read about this the more obvious it becomes that less and less people are accepting what there animals are doing. As I said the animals are choosing their own fate. If they can’t coexist, and they can negotiate there is little choice left as to what to do with them.

I think every body on this board would want to see the killers caught and punished - they would like to see the terrorists neutralized- by what ever means nescessary- but some of us recognize that anit-terrorist measures, if not handled intelligently and with a clear understanding of the social mileu in which they occur, simply breeds more terroism. Death squads have not worked in Colombia- nor, I venture to say, in most places they have been deployed- the largest death squad in the world has created a whole new generation of terrorists in and around Iraq- so what does the government do?

Well, three days ago, Gen Sonthi reversed an earlier decision to pour more troops into the south, saying that undercurrents in Bangkok required more military attention. Do you support his analysis?

By ascribing to these people traits which are non human we conveniently allow ourselves to negate the very likely possibility that specific though misguided actions can create from perfectly normal nice guy humans- the very blood thirsty terroists we wish to anhiliate. Surely we must all wonder whether these events would be so horrible had Tak Bai and Kreu Ze not occurred. Not to mention the tortures, murders, disappearances that rumor treats as normal police tactics in the south.

One state sanctioned murder of an innocent, univolved Muslim family in the South, and then watch this thing pick up steam.

Blaze There is no easy fix for this, some innocent will die while the removal is going on, it just has to be accepted as a fact. As I said even the most skilled surgeon must cut away some healthy tissue to remove the cancer.

The best possible answer is the locals start to fight back, at least then the coward animals will stay in their holes until the exterminators come along.

[Jai Dee]

Interior Minister urges people to express condemnation against the southern brutality

Minister of Interior and the Director of Internal Security Operations Command (ISOC) Aree Wongarya (อารีย์ วงศ์อารยะ) has urged the people to muster up courage and show their disapproval in the southern brutality.

In regard to the meeting with Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont, Mr. Aree says that he spoke to PM Surayud regrading water pollution in Ang Thong (อ่างทอง) and Ayuddhaya (อยุธยา) Province and the unrest situation in the southern provinces.

Interior Minister says that he wants Thai people to protest against the brutal situation, while condemning the southern insurgents.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 15 March 2007

[Jai Dee]

Surayud says killings won't derail peace push

Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont Thursday warned of escalating bloodshed in the Muslim south following the brutal deaths of 12 people there, but vowed to push ahead with his peace-building policy.

The prime minister conceded that the deaths Wednesday of three Muslims in a bomb attack and nine Buddhists, shot execution-style after an ambush on their bus, marked a deterioration of the situation in the south.

The violence continued Thursday, with a Buddhist man shot dead at a rubber processing plant in Narathiwat province.

But Surayud he said he believed a non-violent approach was to only way to solve the shadowy separatist insurgency, which has killed 2,000 people in the three provinces bordering Malaysia since January 2004.

"We cannot solve the problem with anger," the prime minister told reporters.

"I will not reconcile with the ones who broke the law, but I will talk with reasonable people. We will solve southern unrest only with peaceful means."

Surayud admitted that the government still had little idea about who was behind the violence.

"I cannot say how many of them there are since we don't know who are the leaders or masterminds," he said.

Source: The Nation - 15 March 2007

[Jai Dee]

Si Sa Ket residents burn effigies during a protest outside the Provincial Hall against the brutal killings of minibus passengers in Yala yesterday. The gun attack was blamed on insurgents. Similar rallies were held in other provinces.

Source: The Nation - 15 March 2007

[John K]

Interior Minister urges people to express condemnation against the southern brutality

Minister of Interior and the Director of Internal Security Operations Command (ISOC) Aree Wongarya (อารีย์ วงศ์อารยะ) has urged the people to muster up courage and show their disapproval in the southern brutality.

In regard to the meeting with Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont, Mr. Aree says that he spoke to PM Surayud regrading water pollution in Ang Thong (อ่างทอง) and Ayuddhaya (อยุธยา) Province and the unrest situation in the southern provinces.

Interior Minister says that he wants Thai people to protest against the brutal situation, while condemning the southern insurgents.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 15 March 2007

Protests will do little good without weapons to return fire. I would not doubt the animals would just come up and open fire on the crowd of protesters.

[John K]

Surayud says killings won't derail peace push

Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont Thursday warned of escalating bloodshed in the Muslim south following the brutal deaths of 12 people there, but vowed to push ahead with his peace-building policy.

The prime minister conceded that the deaths Wednesday of three Muslims in a bomb attack and nine Buddhists, shot execution-style after an ambush on their bus, marked a deterioration of the situation in the south.

The violence continued Thursday, with a Buddhist man shot dead at a rubber processing plant in Narathiwat province.

But Surayud he said he believed a non-violent approach was to only way to solve the shadowy separatist insurgency, which has killed 2,000 people in the three provinces bordering Malaysia since January 2004.

"We cannot solve the problem with anger," the prime minister told reporters.

"I will not reconcile with the ones who broke the law, but I will talk with reasonable people. We will solve southern unrest only with peaceful means."

Surayud admitted that the government still had little idea about who was behind the violence.

"I cannot say how many of them there are since we don't know who are the leaders or masterminds," he said.

Source: The Nation - 15 March 2007

Somewhere along the way I said evil thrives on the compassion of man.

I am very sure every person who was executed and or slaughtered by the animals sought a peaceful solution moments before they were killed.

[Jai Dee]

Funeral ceremony for six victims of bus shooting benig held in Betong

At 14:00 hours today (Mar 15), Yala Governor Thira Mintrasak and entourage attended a funeral ceremony of the victims who were attacked by the gunmen yesterday morning when they were on a passenger bus en route to Betong and Hat Yai. The ceremony was held at the Municipality of Betong.

The group comforted the victims’ relatives and donated 100,000 baht to each of them. The Yala Governor says relevant units are concerned for the relatives and expediting the relief efforts to all affected people. He says all sides are the victims of violence, and in order to alleviate the loss and uplift the people’s spirits, the officials are conducting the operation to boost their morale so they could carry on with their social lives.

The bodies of the six victims from the passenger bus shooting that joined the funeral ceremony in Betong include Mr. Prawit Chomphuthong, Ms. Wilasini Chomphuthong, Ms. Sathaporn Hongsila, Mr. Amnuay Buabutr, Mrs. Sai Buabutr, and Ms. Kiriti Sae-Lu.

Meanwhile, the relatives bring two other victims, namely Mrs. Prachuap Yusawad and Lance Corporal Thitipong Nunoi, to perform a funeral ceremony in their residential areas.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 15 March 2007

[bolognamare]

There cannot be a peaceful soultion to this debacle in the south, as that would result in Thailand ceding Pattani to Malaysia, which is not an option. The only alternative therefore is to remove the problem at source, and yes unfortunately that does mean operations similar to those performed by the British Army in Ireland and elsewhere. Simply put, the Thai gov't need lots of surveillance and then decisive action in the form of snatch and kill squads.

The government should send a military presence to protect the zone and guarantee the citizens (and tourists too), like what happened some years ago in Sicily when civilians were killed from mafia wars.

What about Malaysia answer to this event?

[Jai Dee]

MOD says authorities will use offensive strategies to meet southern unrest

The Minister of Defence said that authorities will be altering their approach to the southern unrest by utilizing greater offensive strategy.

Defense Minister Gen Boonrawd Somthas (บุญรอด สมทัศน์) reported that officials would be modifying their work approach to more effectively counter the southern unrest situation. Greater offensive strategy would be employed to meet the increasingly violent tactics of insurgents.

Gen Boonrawd believes insurgent elements are attempting to goad authorities into meeting violence with violence, so that authorities would lose support with local residents. The Defense Minister said that such tactics showed the insurgents to be religious heretics, and Muslim citizens themselves have decried the violence.

The Defense Minister admitted that authorities could not monitor all locations for attacks, but affirmed that officials would be cracking down on insurgent bases believed to be located in nearby forested areas. Gen Boonrawd added that the period from March to May marked a dangerous time for insurgent activities, as current political conflicts may be used as rationale for increased violence.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 15 March 2007

[Dupont]

There cannot be a peaceful soultion to this debacle in the south, as that would result in Thailand ceding Pattani to Malaysia, which is not an option. The only alternative therefore is to remove the problem at source, and yes unfortunately that does mean operations similar to those performed by the British Army in Ireland and elsewhere. Simply put, the Thai gov't need lots of surveillance and then decisive action in the form of snatch and kill squads.

The government should send a military presence to protect the zone and guarantee the citizens (and tourists too), like what happened some years ago in Sicily when civilians were killed from mafia wars.

What about Malaysia answer to this event?

The bleeding hearts have had their chance and the situation is worsening.

Hiding behind women and children, killing women and children! Theres no place for supposed men of this calibre on this planet. Anybody protecting them is part of the problem as well and they have been going softly softly on them least somebody runs to some NGO crying that a bad man shouted at them!

Its inevitable that people are going to die, so let it be them, and lets remember that when innocents are caught up in the cross fire, that innocents are being killed anyway by these idiots.

Go for the schools as well. They teach them that if they die in Jihad, they go to heaven and have use of ex number of virgins! So they are worse than sex touritst in this respect, and their life must be so empty of fun and life that they see death as a preferable way out.

Why not lets agree with them and help them on their way. Only need to catch one or two and they will squeel like stuck pigs. Look at The sheikh they caught in Pakistan. He broke down crying like a baby when he thought he was going to be waterborded!!

These leaders preach that they love death, but they try to ensure that they are isolated from it.

Edited March 15, 2007 by Dupont

[blaze]

The more you read about this the more obvious it becomes that less and less people are accepting what there animals are doing. As I said the animals are choosing their own fate. If they can’t coexist, and they can negotiate there is little choice left as to what to do with them.

I think every body on this board would want to see the killers caught and punished - they would like to see the terrorists neutralized- by what ever means nescessary- but some of us recognize that anit-terrorist measures, if not handled intelligently and with a clear understanding of the social mileu in which they occur, simply breeds more terroism. Death squads have not worked in Colombia- nor, I venture to say, in most places they have been deployed- the largest death squad in the world has created a whole new generation of terrorists in and around Iraq- so what does the government do?

Well, three days ago, Gen Sonthi reversed an earlier decision to pour more troops into the south, saying that undercurrents in Bangkok required more military attention. Do you support his analysis?

By ascribing to these people traits which are non human we conveniently allow ourselves to negate the very likely possibility that specific though misguided actions can create from perfectly normal nice guy humans- the very blood thirsty terroists we wish to anhiliate. Surely we must all wonder whether these events would be so horrible had Tak Bai and Kreu Ze not occurred. Not to mention the tortures, murders, disappearances that rumor treats as normal police tactics in the south.

One state sanctioned murder of an innocent, univolved Muslim family in the South, and then watch this thing pick up steam.

Blaze There is no easy fix for this, some innocent will die while the removal is going on, it just has to be accepted as a fact. As I said even the most skilled surgeon must cut away some healthy tissue to remove the cancer.

The best possible answer is the locals start to fight back, at least then the coward animals will stay in their holes until the exterminators come along.

That's right. There is no easy fix. And that's exactly the point I'm trying to make. The idea of the locals fighting back is good until the south erupts into all out civil war- which could internationalize this conflict to a degree that nobody would want- (remember who fought on behalf of the Kosovars? The Chenchnians? The Bosnian Moslems?--- village defence volunteers have been in place for several years- how effective they are, I don't know. I would expect though, that that is a step in the right direction.

The problem with "collateral damage" is not so much a moral one- as a tactical one. I ask again, would the violence be as horrific had Kreu Se and Tak Bak not happened? Taksin and the military command undoubtedly regarded those incidents (plus many we probably aren't aware of) as "collateral damage."

And right now, I think most would agree, it is tactics that will influence the direction this goes- from the policy level to the security apparatus level- not dropping paper birds, not indiscriminate brutality, not peace marches in northern cities- but military and police and government tactics. And that will require intelligence and intelligent analysis- something that appears to have been as lacking in the previous regime as well as this regime. We might not be able to tame the animal that lives in the heart of the terroris- but we'd better make sure we tether the animal that lives in our own hearts at a time like this.

I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb here when I say that there is nothing the terrorists would rather see than for a massacre of sympathizers or neutral Moslems. And we'd be wise not too play into their hands (using we to mean the government).

Edited March 15, 2007 by blaze

[Plus]

And right now, I think most would agree, it is tactics that will influence the direction this goes- from the policy level to the security apparatus level- not dropping paper birds, not indiscriminate brutality, not peace marches in northern cities- but military and police and government tactics. And that will require intelligence and intelligent analysis- something that appears to have been as lacking in the previous regime as well as this regime.

No matter what regime is in Bangkok, people on the ground stay the same, only their generals' names change.

>>>

Government is not extending an olive branch to terrorists, it's trying to engage the rest of the population. It needs the trust of ordinary muslims. Is it going to solve the problems on its own? NO. Once the trust is there, the government should crack down on all suspected militants, the people will forgive if some innocents get caught - that's the meaning of trust.

At the moment villagers in the South simply block any attempts to detain and interrogate the suspects - they don't trust the government forces. Why is it so? Was an apology from Surayud not enough? Was and offer of negotiations was not enough? The answer is that soldiers and officers on the ground are still the same, Surayud's apology hasn't change THEM, and they are the ones who are accused of Krue Sue and Tak Bai and scores of other killings.

Unless there's a visible change in how the police and the army operate in the South, there will be no trust. Can Surayud and Sondhi revamp the whole chain of command or change officers attitudes? Not very likely, but if they can prove to those officers that new attitude will work, it might happen, slowly. At the moment they are considered as big shots from the capital, not as role models.

Funny you mentioned Chechens - it looks like Russians have finally got them under control, after induring years and years of universal condemnation for human rights abuses. Ok, they killed all their leaders, but they also gave them de-facto independence, they gave them autonomy, they let them choose their own government, they stuck to their plan, and they pulled it through.

[RusticCharm]

kinda out of character for the insurgency in the south so far ..... could easily be something else.

Yeah.

No one was beheaded.

[Plus]

The driver has survived, he saw the perpetrators.

[Johpa]

I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb here when I say that there is nothing the terrorists would rather see than for a massacre of sympathizers or neutral Moslems. And we'd be wise not too play into their hands (using we to mean the government).

The problem here is that by being neutral, a Muslim is showing sympathy towards the Jihadists. And make no mistake, despite there being bonafide grievances down south, the insurgency and the violence is part of the global Jihad, a declared war against Dar El Harb, the world that is non-Muslim. It is not an easy battle when the protagonists have embraced death, which, almost by definition, is the embodiment of evil.

[blaze]

And right now, I think most would agree, it is tactics that will influence the direction this goes- from the policy level to the security apparatus level- not dropping paper birds, not indiscriminate brutality, not peace marches in northern cities- but military and police and government tactics. And that will require intelligence and intelligent analysis- something that appears to have been as lacking in the previous regime as well as this regime.

No matter what regime is in Bangkok, people on the ground stay the same, only their generals' names change.

>>>

Government is not extending an olive branch to terrorists, it's trying to engage the rest of the population. It needs the trust of ordinary muslims. Is it going to solve the problems on its own? NO. Once the trust is there, the government should crack down on all suspected militants, the people will forgive if some innocents get caught - that's the meaning of trust.

At the moment villagers in the South simply block any attempts to detain and interrogate the suspects - they don't trust the government forces. Why is it so? Was an apology from Surayud not enough? Was and offer of negotiations was not enough? The answer is that soldiers and officers on the ground are still the same, Surayud's apology hasn't change THEM, and they are the ones who are accused of Krue Sue and Tak Bai and scores of other killings.

Unless there's a visible change in how the police and the army operate in the South, there will be no trust. Can Surayud and Sondhi revamp the whole chain of command or change officers attitudes? Not very likely, but if they can prove to those officers that new attitude will work, it might happen, slowly. At the moment they are considered as big shots from the capital, not as role models.

Funny you mentioned Chechens - it looks like Russians have finally got them under control, after induring years and years of universal condemnation for human rights abuses. Ok, they killed all their leaders, but they also gave them de-facto independence, they gave them autonomy, they let them choose their own government, they stuck to their plan, and they pulled it through.

That's right. There is no trust. Some on this thread have recommended a jackboot approach- accept a few innocent villagers getting killed but wipe out the vermin. You seem to be taking the opposite approach- that the 'occupiers' (as they are seen by many to be) become role models. I think you don't mean role models but models of 'civilized' deportment. That, I agree, is a good starting point- though perhaps a little late in the game.

You're not suggesting that Kadyrov regime in Chechnya nor the behavior of the Russians leading up to the installation of that regime, is the type of 'role model' that would win the trust of the Pattani villagers are you? But the point I was making by bringing up Chechnya was the role that foreign fighters played (as well as in Kosovo, Bosnia and Iraq) - something I don't think anybody wants to see happen in THailand. The Russians had at their disposal a good army- and an intelligence service based on one of the most effective the world has known. Should foreign 'mujahadeen' types start trickling into Thailand- Bangkok may not be so well insulated.

Edited March 15, 2007 by blaze

[blaze]

I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb here when I say that there is nothing the terrorists would rather see than for a massacre of sympathizers or neutral Moslems. And we'd be wise not too play into their hands (using we to mean the government).

The problem here is that by being neutral, a Muslim is showing sympathy towards the Jihadists. And make no mistake, despite there being bonafide grievances down south, the insurgency and the violence is part of the global Jihad, a declared war against Dar El Harb, the world that is non-Muslim. It is not an easy battle when the protagonists have embraced death, which, almost by definition, is the embodiment of evil.

Yes but that is the nature of all movements of this type: the your'e 'either part of the solution or you are part of the problem" sort of mentality. But when the 'neutral person', is abused by the big enemy-the 'real' enemy- he can quickly become seen as a martyr for the cause- even though only hours previous he was regarded as part of the problem. And if there's one thing that must be avoided if at all possible- it is martyrs. Don't you think so?

[Heng]

I wonder if we could carry guns, would they try to attack a Van full of people with guns. I think not. Cowards only attack the weak.

Actually most of the gun licenses issued for the last 2-3 years have been to the southern provinces (that is, regular everyday citizens that are willing to put all of their id and house reg. docs on record....not terrorists), to the point that there is a shortage in the rest of the country. Armed families, mom, dad, grandma and grandpa + virtually no training vs. light machine guns and rifles in ambushes... the terrorists know who's going to win that one 99 out of 100 times anyway.

[blam]

The following is a post I wrote here at thaivisa.com on February 23. This post is now far too long and I apologize, please bear with me now:

I went to Betong last month. Great little town., it's on the Thai/Malaysian border a few hours west of Yala city. Also, we did manage to go to Yala and Pattani just to see what's up. It is hard to like what you see. Not so much in the city, but in the surrounding rural areas: The Thai government has literally GIVEN these people everything. Electricity, water, telecommunications, transportation, highways... everything. But the local people have made a mess of it all.

Betong is essentially Chinese, about 65%, and is a very nice, very clean little town. It is very unique and has a great history, but now, the Muslims want the Chinese out. The Muslims want their goats and their unbelievable squalor (read below) taking over the streets and they want the Southern Thai dirty lazy lifestyle to rule the town.

Fact: The roads to everywhere in the far south have large blockades with riprap broken concrete and crossed steel spiked tubing protruding, they are imposing & effective and sit in the middle impeding all traffic. There are sandbag protected huts off to the side of the roads surrounded by concertina wire and small artillery, just the tops of helmets and guns sticking up are visible. There are units of heavily armed soldiers walking along the roads every few miles. Soldiers with M-16s hanging out at the 7-11s are commonplace. The airports are surrounded by hastily made chain link fences with high density large-loop concertina wire, and the runways are essentially ringed with gun turreted trucks.

So... Hey people, it LOOKS like a war zone down there already. If somebody wants to call it a 'civil war' zone, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch of the imagination at all, and it actually sounds more correct according to what you are seeing.

...

Traveling: As far as I could see with my own eyes, my wife agreeing, is that the Muslim villages are dirty, very very very dirty. I felt like saying, "Hey, if somebody' just comes in here and blows this place totally to h#ll, nobody is going to miss it. Not for an instant" It is that disgusting. But, I am an educated man, and have traveled the world extensively. I tried to look into the self righteousness of the local Southern Muslims as simply uneducated but spoiled, and tried to see beyond their mess. The normal Islamic world is not nearly so extreme. Here, there are kids and good people that happen to be of the Islamic faith, and it is an awful thing to think of what is is going to happen in the near future. But listen, there is something going on here that is out of control, and it is NOT THAI, and NOT OF THAI ORIGIN. It very much reminded me of places that I have seen in the poorer areas of Egypt.

...

Unfortunately, the situation looks grim, and I have a feeling that this will end up like every other Muslim versus (name your religion here), the perps are going to destroy it all by themselves. And, they will take anything and everything of value and destroy it as well.

The Buddhist Thais should get out of there, the Chinese should sell their businesses and get out of there, the Muslims are going to destroy it. It almost seems that certain.

What can the Thai government do? This situation could take Thailand right down the same road as Bosnia. If they strong arm, they lose, (ethnic cleansing?) if they placate they lose. It really is a lose lose situation.

Islamic extremist whack jobs have done it again, and they will keep on doing it as long as the real world hasn't returned to the Islamic extremist's dream of a new stone age. I don't have an answer here at all, only the idea that it going to get WAY worse before it gets better, terrorism will the flash point, and it looks like it is already here.

Sorry for any typos, it's late here in Thailand

That road from Betong to Yala is long, and winds nauseatingly up and down the mountains there. That information, that that it is nothing but sharp curves and up and down steep hills, is not on ANY map nor is it in any tour guide that I have seen. Well, yep, we almost ran out of gas, had to stop for an emergency, late afternoon, 100 Baht hand hoser at a motorcycle nam mon shack. While we were stopped, the look we got from the local young dudes there was enough to make us force it into something any Indy 500 pit crew would be proud of. The young guys are obviously pumped up on something akin to the old Bangkok strawberry Ya-Ba, but in this case it's a nasty high caused from an out of control religion. That's right, it is totally out of control, and the Muslim society is doing nothing about it. Those young dudes had crazy blood in their eyes and h#ll, I'll tell you, it was pretty damned obvious,

I truly believe that the Thai police and military could get a handle on this; if they just went in there and started doing a lot more. Go into the villages, take pictures, get thumb prints, shut off their water, shut off their electricity, search every motorbike, put more patrols on that road... TAKE THEIR <deleted> GOATS AWAY FROM THEM, make arrests, lots of them. The Betong Chinese have figured this stuff out a long time ago, and have dealt with it locally, immediately, and directly. They are ruthless in the way they protect themselves. The Thai government should do the same.

I am sickened and disgusted with Yala Province, it is time to stop doing things in a Thai way, and start acting like the local Chinese: the Thai Govt. should get down there and ask how the local Chinese have managed to do such a good job of maintaining themselves in Betong. At this point I am sure that the locals have a pretty good idea who the perpetrators in these latest incidents are.

Go down there and get them. Enough is enough. The Thai way is not working.

Thaksin's strategy, in 2001, of removing the locally administering Thai military (85% Islamic), and replacing it with Thai police regulars (99% Thai Buddhist) is an unmitigated and wholly self manipulated disaster. How many times can you say the word 'stupid' in one breath?

I must have been out of my mind to go down there in the first place. Chuan Leekpai, HELP, where are you? (the echo long lost in the distance.)

Old and in the way in Phuket.

[Johpa]

I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb here when I say that there is nothing the terrorists would rather see than for a massacre of sympathizers or neutral Moslems. And we'd be wise not too play into their hands (using we to mean the government).

The problem here is that by being neutral, a Muslim is showing sympathy towards the Jihadists. And make no mistake, despite there being bonafide grievances down south, the insurgency and the violence is part of the global Jihad, a declared war against Dar El Harb, the world that is non-Muslim. It is not an easy battle when the protagonists have embraced death, which, almost by definition, is the embodiment of evil.

Yes but that is the nature of all movements of this type: the your'e 'either part of the solution or you are part of the problem" sort of mentality. But when the 'neutral person', is abused by the big enemy-the 'real' enemy- he can quickly become seen as a martyr for the cause- even though only hours previous he was regarded as part of the problem. And if there's one thing that must be avoided if at all possible- it is martyrs. Don't you think so?

Martyrdom is a very subjective view of death as is "the big enemy" or "the real enemy." There are two common methods for avoiding perceptions of martydom: one can either attempt to avoid deaths or one can make death so commonplace that martyrdom non longer has meaning. As Coppala's version of Colonel Kurtz would say "the horror,....the horror".

If it was your children mudered in that van down south, would they be martyrs? Would you be willing to engage in conversation with the killers? What happens when the non-Muslim world, the Dar el Harb, accepts the Jihadi challenge of battle? There are no easy answers nor clear solutions. The horror, the horror. Which is your preferred choice of horror?

[ColPyat]

The problem here is that by being neutral, a Muslim is showing sympathy towards the Jihadists. And make no mistake, despite there being bonafide grievances down south, the insurgency and the violence is part of the global Jihad, a declared war against Dar El Harb, the world that is non-Muslim. It is not an easy battle when the protagonists have embraced death, which, almost by definition, is the embodiment of evil.

I am sorry, but i would like to see evidence of this.

So far, we have very little. We have no foreign fighters yet, and only confirmation of some of the leaders of some groups having been trained in Afghanistan. So, far, i would view the conflict similar in nature to the Aceh conflict, which was mostly separatist with the obvious illicit business interests involved, but not Jihadist.

You may be right with your assumption, but i have not seen enough evidence. And, the conflict if not yet Jihadist, might turn so in the future, as happened in several other conflicts that started out separatist.

The important part is, that we need to know where we actually are in the South. Insufficient information will not allow the government to employ the right strategy. With separatists one can negotiate, as their ideas in the end are not too dissimilar to the idea of statehood the government has, while Jihadist ideology is far removed from anything that resembles a modern state.

If it is the case that the problems in the South are basically separatist in nature, then a softer approach leading to negotiations would be prudent, including readiness for concessions and compromise also from the side of the Thai state. A solution similar to Aceh with autonomy would be realistic.

If though it has moved into Jihadism, then things will be very difficult, and there won't be a solution.

Edited March 15, 2007 by ColPyat

[Mid]

meanwhile the PM's in the North solving the haze ..............................................

[admiraldy]

They should try to find a solution for the south issue asap , otherwise foreign islamic jihadi groups will start pouring to the south to help their "brothers"

[ColPyat]

They should try to find a solution for the south issue asap , otherwise foreign islamic jihadi groups will start pouring to the south to help their "brothers"

This will not be easy though, fortunately. There is no common border with a destabilized or supportive country, through which those fighters could slip through unnoticed, and find shelter, such as in Kashmir or the 'stans.

Malaysia does not support those Jihadists, and Indonesia is half an ocean or a province away.

[dog412]

The problem here is that by being neutral, a Muslim is showing sympathy towards the Jihadists. And make no mistake, despite there being bonafide grievances down south, the insurgency and the violence is part of the global Jihad, a declared war against Dar El Harb, the world that is non-Muslim. It is not an easy battle when the protagonists have embraced death, which, almost by definition, is the embodiment of evil.

I am sorry, but i would like to see evidence of this.

So far, we have very little. We have no foreign fighters yet, and only confirmation of some of the leaders of some groups having been trained in Afghanistan. So, far, i would view the conflict similar in nature to the Aceh conflict, which was mostly separatist with the obvious illicit business interests involved, but not Jihadist.

You may be right with your assumption, but i have not seen enough evidence. And, the conflict if not yet Jihadist, might turn so in the future, as happened in several other conflicts that started out separatist.

The important part is, that we need to know where we actually are in the South. Insufficient information will not allow the government to employ the right strategy. With separatists one can negotiate, as their ideas in the end are not too dissimilar to the idea of statehood the government has, while Jihadist ideology is far removed from anything that resembles a modern state.

If it is the case that the problems in the South are basically separatist in nature, then a softer approach leading to negotiations would be prudent, including readiness for concessions and compromise also from the side of the Thai state. A solution similar to Aceh with autonomy would be realistic.

If though it has moved into Jihadism, then things will be very difficult, and there won't be a solution.

i totally disagreed with the Aceh autonomy. pancasila, not sure of spelling, was the acceptance of all the various cultures and beliefs of that huge cultural olio that is Indonesia. Aceh is now, more than ever, forcing the Muslim view on all the inhabitants of their newly found "autonomous" possesion. may Thailand not make the same mistake.