More Killings In Southern Thailand

[hammered]

It is unfortunate that there seems to be a rising tide of anti-Muslim feeling across at least the western world. Unfortunately this is so often fed by our very own western govenrments with their polices. Few of us seem to be able to sit down for one minute and try to imagine what it is like being a poor muslim at the receiving end of our polices.

At the moment the Thai goevrnment at least do not seem to be taking this western route of totally alienating Muslim people.

The problems of poor Muslims generally arise from their own corrupt and incompetent leadership.Don't take the mindless approach of blaming all the problems of the Muslim world on Western policies.Read "What went wrong" by the great scholar of Islam, Bernard Lewis to get a better perspective.And why don't you take a minute to consider what it was like for the thousands of victims in the Twin Towers being "on the receiving end" of Al-Quaeda policy.

And as for Southern Thailand, why do you let the Thai government off so easily? What exactly do the crimes committed by both sides in the South have to do with western policies?

I was talking about a rising mindset amongst westerners of across the board anti-Muslim feeling that is played on and advanced by our own governments. I was not talking about the south and my comment relating to the Thai government was that to date they hadnt gone into western style stick only mode, which I think is commendable of the Thais.

By the way, I do sympathise with those thousands on the receiving end of al-Qaeda (arguably formed, funded and armed by the west to resist the soviets) policy just as I sympathise with those hundreds of thousands dead and maimed on the receiving end of decades of western policies.

Anyway I will not say more on this as we are getting off topic.

[Naam]

Perhaps i should say that the doctrine that they follow and carry out their evil doing by should be eradicated and the beliefs that are financed and instigated from fanatics in high places, needs to be exterminated as in destroyed by the way !!!!!!!!!!!!

that sounds completely different and reasonable.

Thanks Dr.Naam, some times my inexperience from an elequence, written / point of view sometimes fails me.

I apologise for it as and when it happens to cause misunderstanding from my lack of it.

marshbags

there is no need to apologise Marshbags. your last statement was quite clear. i reacted because during working and living a considerable number of years in the Middle East i acquired a lot of arab friends who are nowadays horrified by the actions of so-called islamic terrorists. not a single one of my friends condones or justifies these actions.

[marshbags]

B.Post Breaking News

Quote:-

15:32 Separatists behead 28th southern victim

(dpa) - Suspected separatist insurgents on Monday killed a Buddhist father and son, beheading the father, supposedly to avenge the weekend bombing of a mosque in Thailand's deep South.

The decapitated body of Preecha Nuanthong, 30, and the bullet-riddled corpse of his son Dusit, 16, were found on a roadside in Nongchik village, 730 kilometres south of Bangkok, said Pattani Police Sub-Lieutenant Nanthachai Janpoh.

Preecha's head was found later in Nongchik's morning market. The father and son had been hunting in a nearby jungle.

He was the 28th person decapitated by Islamist forces since they resumed a simmering separatist campaign in January, 2004. More than 2,200 people have died in the insurgency since then.

Unquote.

Please go to the following url for the complete B.News story:-

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=118437

How sad and sickening these attrocities are and involving two innocent and very young people of the same family.

ANOTHER family will now be unconsolable .....................................

WHY DO THEY HAVE TO SUFFER YOU EVIL BASTARDS ??????????????

marshbags

Edited April 30, 2007 by marshbags

[younghusband]

It is unfortunate that there seems to be a rising tide of anti-Muslim feeling across at least the western world. Unfortunately this is so often fed by our very own western govenrments with their polices. Few of us seem to be able to sit down for one minute and try to imagine what it is like being a poor muslim at the receiving end of our polices.

At the moment the Thai goevrnment at least do not seem to be taking this western route of totally alienating Muslim people.

The problems of poor Muslims generally arise from their own corrupt and incompetent leadership.Don't take the mindless approach of blaming all the problems of the Muslim world on Western policies.Read "What went wrong" by the great scholar of Islam, Bernard Lewis to get a better perspective.And why don't you take a minute to consider what it was like for the thousands of victims in the Twin Towers being "on the receiving end" of Al-Quaeda policy.

And as for Southern Thailand, why do you let the Thai government off so easily? What exactly do the crimes committed by both sides in the South have to do with western policies?

I was talking about a rising mindset amongst westerners of across the board anti-Muslim feeling that is played on and advanced by our own governments. I was not talking about the south and my comment relating to the Thai government was that to date they hadnt gone into western style stick only mode, which I think is commendable of the Thais.

By the way, I do sympathise with those thousands on the receiving end of al-Qaeda (arguably formed, funded and armed by the west to resist the soviets) policy just as I sympathise with those hundreds of thousands dead and maimed on the receiving end of decades of western policies.

Anyway I will not say more on this as we are getting off topic.

With respect a very bizarre post.I will ignore your patently silly reference to the "hundred of thousands dead on the receiving end of western policies" but your comment on the origins of Al-Quaeda is a travesty of the truth.The roots of Al-Quaeda extremism are in Wahabi fundamentalism, notwithstanding the foolish Western support in Soviet dominated Afghanistan and for Sadddam during the war with Iran.In Iraq the vast bulk of the violence is Muslim Arab killing Muslim Arab, but the silence is deafening in terms of condemnation from Muslim and Arab leaders.Occasionally there are murmurs of disquiet, but the Americans and the British have now become everyone's alibi.What will be the excuse when the Americans have gone home?

[admiraldy]

It is unfortunate that there seems to be a rising tide of anti-Muslim feeling across at least the western world. Unfortunately this is so often fed by our very own western govenrments with their polices. Few of us seem to be able to sit down for one minute and try to imagine what it is like being a poor muslim at the receiving end of our polices.

At the moment the Thai goevrnment at least do not seem to be taking this western route of totally alienating Muslim people.

The problems of poor Muslims generally arise from their own corrupt and incompetent leadership.Don't take the mindless approach of blaming all the problems of the Muslim world on Western policies.Read "What went wrong" by the great scholar of Islam, Bernard Lewis to get a better perspective.And why don't you take a minute to consider what it was like for the thousands of victims in the Twin Towers being "on the receiving end" of Al-Quaeda policy.

And as for Southern Thailand, why do you let the Thai government off so easily? What exactly do the crimes committed by both sides in the South have to do with western policies?

I was talking about a rising mindset amongst westerners of across the board anti-Muslim feeling that is played on and advanced by our own governments. I was not talking about the south and my comment relating to the Thai government was that to date they hadnt gone into western style stick only mode, which I think is commendable of the Thais.

By the way, I do sympathise with those thousands on the receiving end of al-Qaeda (arguably formed, funded and armed by the west to resist the soviets) policy just as I sympathise with those hundreds of thousands dead and maimed on the receiving end of decades of western policies.

Anyway I will not say more on this as we are getting off topic.

With respect a very bizarre post.I will ignore your patently silly reference to the "hundred of thousands dead on the receiving end of western policies" but your comment on the origins of Al-Quaeda is a travesty of the truth.The roots of Al-Quaeda extremism are in Wahabi fundamentalism, notwithstanding the foolish Western support in Soviet dominated Afghanistan and for Sadddam during the war with Iran.In Iraq the vast bulk of the violence is Muslim Arab killing Muslim Arab, but the silence is deafening in terms of condemnation from Muslim and Arab leaders.Occasionally there are murmurs of disquiet, but the Americans and the British have now become everyone's alibi.What will be the excuse when the Americans have gone home?

Myfriend , the main problem is Israel occupation of the palestinian land ,if this issue is not solved , you will see many new fundemantilist groups poping up in the region , worse than al-quaeda and Hamas.....

[ColPyat]

With respect a very bizarre post.I will ignore your patently silly reference to the "hundred of thousands dead on the receiving end of western policies" but your comment on the origins of Al-Quaeda is a travesty of the truth.The roots of Al-Quaeda extremism are in Wahabi fundamentalism, notwithstanding the foolish Western support in Soviet dominated Afghanistan and for Sadddam during the war with Iran.In Iraq the vast bulk of the violence is Muslim Arab killing Muslim Arab, but the silence is deafening in terms of condemnation from Muslim and Arab leaders.Occasionally there are murmurs of disquiet, but the Americans and the British have now become everyone's alibi.What will be the excuse when the Americans have gone home?

The US and the UK (or better - certain radical factions of those countries) have started this foolish war against the council of many other countries, against the advice of even the CIA, the experienced people of the foreign service and the state department, have tried to blackmail the UN security council with fake evidence, and then have circumvented this only international crises prevention institution we have had when the fake evidence was not bought.

It's not that they were not told beforehand of what is going to happen, and what factional infighting is going to be let lose.

So, yes, you are right - it is mostly sectarian Muslim on Muslim violence, but a large share of the responsibility carry the present leaderships of those two countries. Especially given the history of US involvement in both Afghanistan and Iraq that has led to the situation in the first place.

And these wars make it very difficult for Muslims all over the world to take a position against the fanatical elements in their religious community, such as in Thailand's south. Many times there i have spoken with Muslims who were not supporters of the insurgents, but they have expressed support for Bin Laden. Not because they agree with him really, but because he is seen as one who stands up against US aggression.

Remember right after 9/11 - Muslims in so many countries, including Iran, went on the street to sympathy for the US. Oh my god, what chance for lasting peace has been given away there by a mad and uneducated power clique in the white house!!!

Edited April 30, 2007 by ColPyat

[highdiver]

Myfriend , the main problem is Israel occupation of the palestinian land ,if this issue is not solved , you will see many new fundemantilist groups poping up in the region , worse than al-quaeda and Hamas.....

and how is Israel conected to this?? every time the extreme mulims do domething wrong its Israels fault???

this propeganda has long past away. no one is buying this any more.

Israel being the only western democracy in the middle east has more experince in extreame muslims then other countries.

the majority of the palastinans and I do have some friends from there just want peace and quiet. but its the redical groups who are inticing violence. a small group of terrorists are reponsible for all the chaos. the palestinians have security forces and for the past 5 years have done nothing to stop those extreme movements. even the other arab countries are getting tired of this.

the paletinian problem is a very sore one but it seems that the palestinians and the Israeis need to sit down and work it out.

and when they do. who is then to be blamed for extreme muslims??

the rise of extreme muslims has nothing to do with Israel. it has to do with the notion that etreme muslims belive in.

you are a muslim or you dont have a right to exist. this is not Islam which the religion of peace this extreme hot headed terrorist that belive that anyhting that is differnet from them has to "die by the sword"

the extreme movements rely on poverty and low income areas where they recruit and brian wash youngsters to perform terror acts in the name of the profit.

I slam has nothing to do with them.. they are not representing Islam. Islam is peace Islam is not about killing inocent people.

[younghusband]

Myfriend , the main problem is Israel occupation of the palestinian land ,if this issue is not solved , you will see many new fundemantilist groups poping up in the region , worse than al-quaeda and Hamas.....

and how is Israel conected to this?? every time the extreme mulims do domething wrong its Israels fault???

Ultimately Israel and Hamas (or its equivalent) will have to negotiate and agree a fair two state solution, which will include the transfer of all land occupied by Israel in 1967.It's a question of when not if.But my question -or a variation of it- remains, what will be the excuse for Islam's failures when the Israelis and Palestinians finally make peace?

Perhaps in the meantime there will be "new fundemantilist groups poping up" but the fact is Islam in its more fundamentalist form doesn't work .Serious committed Islamists are most unlikely to succeed within any structures but their own.Their own are notoriously inefficient and corrupt.Only by lucky coincidence have much of the world's petrocarbons been found underneath Islamic nations, giving them what temporary influence they yield.

How can any culture which despises modernity, hates mobility,distrusts individual liberty and autonomy, persecutes those who deviate from cultural or ideological norms, imposes a kind of brutal conformity on the way people live, love, work, and at a stroke disempowers 50% of its people (women) from proper education -how can such a culture(extreme Islam, not the practice of decent moderate Muslims) ever triumph?

Fundamentalist Islam is a mediaval force.It has nothing to contribute to modern business, science or government.Profoundly and essentially reactionary it barely creates, innovates or invents.Obviously we should be careful because a doomed movement in its death throes can be a nasty beast.There will be savage battles ahead as fundamentalist Islam engages with Russia and China,countries which lack the West's squeamishness about applying crushing force to defeat their enemies.

[marshbags]

Just to nudge things back on topic.

The Nation Breaking News

May 1, 2007 : Last updated 11:46 am (Thai local time)

Quote:-

Buddhist murdered in Thai muslim south as OIC chief visits

YALA - A Buddhist man was shot dead and six others injured Tuesday in Thailand's Muslim-majority south, as the head of an intergovernmental group visited the country, police said.

The 35-year-old rubber tapper was gunned down by militants as he pulled into a service station in Yala, one of three insurgency-plagued provinces bordering Malaysia.

Four other people, including the victim's two children, were injured in the attack, police added.

In neighbouring Pattani province, a roadside bomb injured two police officers, leaving one in serious condition, officers said.

The attacks were carried out as the head of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC) visited Bangkok to discuss the three-year insurgency in the south.

Its secretary general Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu met with Thai Foreign Minister Nitya Pibulsonggram on Monday, and was set to meet with army-installed Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont and junta leader Sonthi Boonyaratglin on Tuesday.

Sonthi is the first Muslim to head the army in the overwhelmingly Buddhist country.

Ihsanoglu also planned to meet with Muslim community leaders before leaving Thailand late Tuesday, foreign ministry spokesman Piriya Khempon said.

"The OIC praised Thailand's peaceful approach to resolving the violence in the restive southern region. The organisation has monitored the situation closely and is ready to provide supports," Piriya told AFP.

More than 2,100 people have been killed in three years of unrest in the southern provinces of Yala, Narathiwat and Pattani.

Four were killed on Monday alone, including a man and his son who were shot and then set ablaze. Militants decapitated the father, leaving his head about two kilometres (one mile) away.

The military-backed government, which came to power after a September coup, has made peace-building efforts in a bid to rein in the insurgency, but violence has escalated over the past six months.

Agence France-Presse

Unquote.

For reference url:- http://nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/r...newsid=30033116

There is no respect for life, freedom or religion of any creed with these extremists, their only aim is to destroy humanity.

They hide behind the muslim cause, They do not defend it. IMO as always

marshbags

[marshbags]

B.Post Breaking News

Part Quote:-

OIC chief backs southern policy

(Agencies) - The head of the world's largest body of Islamic nations urged Thailand on Monday to stick to its soft approach to resolving a bloody insurgency in the Muslim-majority far south.

"We are encouraged by the new government's policy toward the Muslim population," Ekmeleddin Insanoglu, secretary general of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference, told reporters.

"We support the measures taken by the government and we hope to cooperate for a better future," he said after talks with Foreign Minister Nitya Pibulsonggram on unrest in which more than 2,100 people have been killed since January 2004.

Unquote

Please go to the url for the full Quote:-

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=118441

marshbags

[marshbags]

The Nation Tue, May 1, 2007 : Last updated 17:56 pm (Thai local time)

Quote:-

Muslims should behave and have equal rights, says IOC

A plea to fellow Muslims in Thailand to admire and respect the rule of law and for the government to give them equal rights was made by the visiting Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC)'s Secretary General Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu on Saturday.

The secretary, who is in Thailand for the organisation's first ever official visit, was speaking to many prominent Muslim leaders during a meeting at the Foundation of the Islamic Center of Thailand in Bangkok.

The government blames Muslim militants for orchestrating violence against Buddhist dominated state that has killed more than 2,000 people since the beginning of 2004.

"We consider all Muslim minorities to be under the Ummah (one Muslim community) doctrine, but Muslims should be also be good citizens and respect the laws of the countries they live in," Ihsanoglu said.

However, Muslims should also "have the same rights as the rest of the population," he added.

Islam is "a religion of moderation and a religion of peace," he said. Any action against humanity is not acceptable, he added.

"People should not associate terrorists and violence with Islam," Ihsanoglu said in the meeting.

The OIC said it was encouraged by the new government's policies toward Muslim minorities in the kingdom, and the organisation would support measures taken by the government to solve the problems, he said.

Ismail Lutfi Japakiya, Rector of Yala Islamic University, who addressed the meeting in Arabic, said the government should employ a peaceful and reconciliatory approach, as well as eliminate all conditions that cause and fuel violence.

"We should find ways to disarm local people and not arm them to make war against each other," he said.

Arong Suthasana, an academic from Prathumthani University said violence in the deep South had become severe and that the victims were not only Buddhists but Muslims. There were also attempts to start a sectarian conflict between Buddhist and Muslim in the predominantly Muslim region.

Buddhist and Muslim used to live peacefully in the region, but have now become antagonistic towards each other, he said.

"Sooner or later, it will affect Muslims and Buddhists in every corner of the world. Conflict is easy to create, but difficult to eliminate," he warned.

The academic suggested a "special development region" as a solution to address problems of minorities in the region. It is not autonomy, but an approach to put all dimensions into the development, he said.

Angkana Neelaphaijit, Chairperson of Working Group for Peace suggested the abolition of the emergency law, as it opened the chance for human rights violations.

She also suggested the demilitarization of the area and a controlled weapons programme.

Ihsanoglu paid a special tribute to Angkana, calling on the authorities to solve the case of her missing husband Somchai Neelaphaijit, who "championed justice for Muslims".

"The OIC has followed the case and we're looking forward to seeing the verdict," he added.

The OIC also shared Angkana's idea to revoke the emergency law and create safeguards to reduce torture, he said.

by Supalak Ganjanakhundee

Unquote.

For reference the url is :-

http://nationmultimedia.com/2007/05/01/hea...es_30033134.php

I would like to highlight a worthy part of this article:-

Islam is "a religion of moderation and a religion of peace," he said. Any action against humanity is not acceptable, he added.

"People should not associate terrorists and violence with Islam," Ihsanoglu said in the meeting.

My thoughts and personal observation from long ago, and based on the many muslim friends that live among my home community in the U.K.

marshbags

Edited May 1, 2007 by marshbags

[admiraldy]

Myfriend , the main problem is Israel occupation of the palestinian land ,if this issue is not solved , you will see many new fundemantilist groups poping up in the region , worse than al-quaeda and Hamas.....

and how is Israel conected to this?? every time the extreme mulims do domething wrong its Israels fault???

this propeganda has long past away. no one is buying this any more.

Israel being the only western democracy in the middle east has more experince in extreame muslims then other countries.

the majority of the palastinans and I do have some friends from there just want peace and quiet. but its the redical groups who are inticing violence. a small group of terrorists are reponsible for all the chaos. the palestinians have security forces and for the past 5 years have done nothing to stop those extreme movements. even the other arab countries are getting tired of this.

the paletinian problem is a very sore one but it seems that the palestinians and the Israeis need to sit down and work it out.

and when they do. who is then to be blamed for extreme muslims??

the rise of extreme muslims has nothing to do with Israel. it has to do with the notion that etreme muslims belive in.

you are a muslim or you dont have a right to exist. this is not Islam which the religion of peace this extreme hot headed terrorist that belive that anyhting that is differnet from them has to "die by the sword"

the extreme movements rely on poverty and low income areas where they recruit and brian wash youngsters to perform terror acts in the name of the profit.

I slam has nothing to do with them.. they are not representing Islam. Islam is peace Islam is not about killing inocent people.

common , dont take it personal , i am just citing historical facts:

Al-quaeda came to existence due to the former soviet union occupation of afghanistan , Hezballah came to existence due to israel occupation of lebanon , hamas came to existence due to israel continous occupation of palestinian land , the fundemantilist muslims in south of thailand came to existence and are growing due to their belief that their land is occupied by thai budhists and they want some kind of autonomy , so what i want to say is that occupation is a fertile soil for all this extremist groups , WHEN WE SOLVE THIS OCCUPATION ISSUE ,EXTREMISTS WILL NOT HAVE A FERTILE SOIL TO BREED ON IT AND THEY WILL DIE NATURALLY .

[Johpa]

The roots of Al-Quaeda extremism are in Wahabi fundamentalism, notwithstanding the foolish Western support in Soviet dominated Afghanistan and for Sadddam during the war with Iran.In Iraq the vast bulk of the violence is Muslim Arab killing Muslim Arab, but the silence is deafening in terms of condemnation from Muslim and Arab leaders.Occasionally there are murmurs of disquiet, but the Americans and the British have now become everyone's alibi.What will be the excuse when the Americans have gone home?

In a very complicated and multifaceted issue, although Wahabism is not the single intellectual source of Al-Quaeda, let us not forget that the power of the Salafi movement, the source of its ability to spread its backards message around the globe, are the petrol dollars earned from the unholy alliance of King Abdul Aziz bin Saud and the western powers, specifically the US.

But yes, the silence of the larger Muslim world on the Muslim-on-Muslim violence is indeed deafening.

[Naam]

common , dont take it personal , i am just citing historical facts:

Al-quaeda came to existence due to the former soviet union occupation of afghanistan , Hezballah came to existence due to israel occupation of lebanon , hamas came to existence due to israel continous occupation of palestinian land , the fundemantilist muslims in south of thailand came to existence and are growing due to their belief that their land is occupied by thai budhists and they want some kind of autonomy , so what i want to say is that occupation is a fertile soil for all this extremist groups , WHEN WE SOLVE THIS OCCUPATION ISSUE ,EXTREMISTS WILL NOT HAVE A FERTILE SOIL TO BREED ON IT AND THEY WILL DIE NATURALLY .

but let us add that the afore-mentioned facts do not justify terroristic acts which kill and main innocent people. two "wrongs" do not make a "right".

[younghusband]

common , dont take it personal , i am just citing historical facts:

Al-quaeda came to existence due to the former soviet union occupation of afghanistan , Hezballah came to existence due to israel occupation of lebanon , hamas came to existence due to israel continous occupation of palestinian land , the fundemantilist muslims in south of thailand came to existence and are growing due to their belief that their land is occupied by thai budhists and they want some kind of autonomy , so what i want to say is that occupation is a fertile soil for all this extremist groups , WHEN WE SOLVE THIS OCCUPATION ISSUE ,EXTREMISTS WILL NOT HAVE A FERTILE SOIL TO BREED ON IT AND THEY WILL DIE NATURALLY .

but let us add that the afore-mentioned facts do not justify terroristic acts which kill and main innocent people. two "wrongs" do not make a "right".

Admiraldy's jumble of "facts" don't stand up to detailed scrutiny but it is true an Israeli-Palestinian settlement is needed as a matter of urgency.I have given my views earlier and won't repeat them now.

In the London Times today there is an article by Michael Gove on "The real darkness at the heart of Islamist terror".He demolishes the view expressed by admiraldy and others that the motivation of the terrorists is Western foreign policy adventurism.He points out that too many of those who choose to comment on terrorism,its roots, motivations and methods fail to understand the ideology that drives and justifies these actions.He concludes that the ideological motivation for the terrorist threat we face is an austere and pitiless twisting of Islam that offers young men redemption through violence, and the opportunity to exalt themselves by purging the world of the impure.

Just as the followers of Hitler were offered membership of an elite, a sense of special belief and a tempting opportunity to give vent to their resentments and frustrations through violence against those who were "impure" in racial terms, so today's Islamic extremists are offered the same bewitching path, with the focus of violence on those who are "impure" in ideological and cultural terms.The impure, the targets for slaughter are not just apostates who mock Islam, such as Salman Rushdie or the Danish cartoonists, nor are they even the architects of foreign policy adventures -the Bushes and Blairs etc, they are the clubbers and shoppers of the West -in the eyes of the Islamist killers we are all slags, none of us innocent.That is the ugly and troubling truth.

Those who follow Islam are in thrall to a totalitarian world view, like Fascism or Communism, the actions of otheres are always viewed through the skewed perspective of a narrow faith.

Money quote.Recent trial of Islamic extremists in London.Intelligence services caught on tape one of the group talking about a planned bomb in the Ministry of Sound nightclub which would have killed hundreds of young people enjoying themselves:

"No one can turn round and say "Oh they were innocent, those slags dancing around.Do you understand what I mean?"

Edited May 2, 2007 by younghusband

[A_Traveller]

Hm.. As a matter of at least courtesy, if you are going to use an article verbatim, allowing for repositioning edits, as a post, please provide a link to the original, so that posters may read it.

Note the author is a journalist but is also a Conservative Member of Parliament.

Regards

Link

Michael Grove Article

/edit punctuation //

Edited May 2, 2007 by A_Traveller

[Jai Dee]

Southern unrest may dissolve before formation of next administration

The Deputy Chairman of standing committee believes that the southern unrest situation may dissolve before the end of the Surayud administration.

The Deputy Chairman Den Tohmena (เด่น โต๊ะมีนา) said during the meeting today concerning the southern rift, including problems of tourism and industry. He views it is good opportunity for cooperation between the government and the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC) to work together declared to solve the southern unrest situation.

Mr. Den says the government has already implemented some solutions suggested by Peace Building Center and the standing committee.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 02 May 2007

[younghusband]

Hm.. As a matter of at least courtesy, if you are going to use an article verbatim, allowing for repositioning edits, as a post, please provide a link to the original, so that posters may read it.

Note the author is a journalist but is also a Conservative Member of Parliament.

Regards

Link

Michael Grove Article

/edit punctuation //

Sorry my technical ineptitude.Will learn how to provide links.Michael Gove is very well known as one of the sharpest intellects in the Commons.

[Mid]

Southern unrest may dissolve before formation of next administration

The Deputy Chairman of standing committee believes that the southern unrest situation may dissolve before the end of the Surayud administration.

The Deputy Chairman Den Tohmena (เด่น โต๊ะมีนา) said during the meeting today concerning the southern rift, including problems of tourism and industry. He views it is good opportunity for cooperation between the government and the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC) to work together declared to solve the southern unrest situation.

Mr. Den says the government has already implemented some solutions suggested by Peace Building Center and the standing committee.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 02 May 2007

kool - aid overdose for sure .........................

[ColPyat]

Hm.. As a matter of at least courtesy, if you are going to use an article verbatim, allowing for repositioning edits, as a post, please provide a link to the original, so that posters may read it.

Note the author is a journalist but is also a Conservative Member of Parliament.

Regards

Link

Michael Grove Article

/edit punctuation //

Sorry my technical ineptitude.Will learn how to provide links.Michael Gove is very well known as one of the sharpest intellects in the Commons.

I am sorry to disagree with your opinion on the writer of the article. He twists more than a few facts around to suit his agenda.

The most blatant omission of facts:

"And when it comes to foreign policy, when we choose not to intervene, when we decide that we shan’t get involved, whether in Bosnia, Chechnya or Kashmir, we are not respected for our modesty and restraint on the world stage."

Fact is is that in Kashmir "we" were very much involved. Unfortunately though on the side of the "terrorists". Parts of the funding by the US and Saudi intended for Afghanistan (Mudjaheddin and Taleban), to be channeled through Pakistan's ISI was diverted to fund Kashmir's rebels. It was silently accepted that those terrorist organizations operating in Kashmir had safe refuge and training camps in Pakisthan, which was and still is the biggest regional partner of the US.

How comes that Pakistan is the regional partner of the US anyhow, a country that has more than a few difficulties to separate the state from it's more than extremist fundamentalists?

As to the question of "guilt". As bad as Saddham was, he was not an Islamist, he was the opposite. Why is the war against terror waged against Iraq? Why was Iraq completely destroyed and therefore made a training ground for future Islamist terrorits, exactly as Afghanistan was in the 80s?

It would be a lot easier to fight Islamic terrorism if the US and Britain would not be led by Christian fundamentalists and murderous profiteers, which are equally repulsive.

Islamic fundamentalist terrorism is only such a thread because we have made it so, and we continue to make the same mistakes we have made in the past.

Another quote that disturbs me very much:

"Just as the ardent young followers of Hitler in 1930s Germany..."

I don't like these populist and emotive historical comparisons which do not stand up to closer inspection. Nazi Germany and Islamic terrorism are two completely different matters, completely different issues. I am sick of these people trying to rally support by comparing their enemies with the big evil of the 20th century. Especially when historical facts are ignored, such as the very clear and documented involvement of the US, especially US industrialists and bankers with the Nazis.

These people should be rather quiet with the Nazi comparison. There are a few funny and unrelated incidents, such as G.W. Bush's grandfather - Prescott Bush - was indicted during the war under the trading with the enemy act. Parallels today could easily be drawn, such as the personal business involvements with the Bush family and the Bin Laden family, for example. I am sure though that this is just a coincidence...

Anyhow, point being, yes, the Jihadists are worrying, their world views are deplorable. But the present leadership of the US and the UK are not one bit better (read this, not a world view i could share: http://www.newamericancentury.org/ ). They are two sides of the same coin. A solution to these complex problems is not possible with all of them. The earlier the Bin Ladens, Bushes and Bairs, and whoever else, are locked away the better.

[ColPyat]

Southern unrest may dissolve before formation of next administration

The Deputy Chairman of standing committee believes that the southern unrest situation may dissolve before the end of the Surayud administration.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 02 May 2007

Things must be really bad if officials have to resort to making such unrealistic comments.

[JR Texas]

Southern unrest may dissolve before formation of next administration

The Deputy Chairman of standing committee believes that the southern unrest situation may dissolve before the end of the Surayud administration.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 02 May 2007

Things must be really bad if officials have to resort to making such unrealistic comments.

JR Texas: Such a terrible situation............I think more heads are being chopped off in southern Thailand than in all of Iraq. And burning people alive.......horrible! I wonder how much of this is reaching the mainstream mass media in the Western countries.

It is, I think, important to keep in mind that the vast majority of Muslims worldwide do not support people who engage in such mindless and hideous acts of violence.

[ColPyat]

Southern unrest may dissolve before formation of next administration

The Deputy Chairman of standing committee believes that the southern unrest situation may dissolve before the end of the Surayud administration.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 02 May 2007

Things must be really bad if officials have to resort to making such unrealistic comments.

JR Texas: Such a terrible situation............I think more heads are being chopped off in southern Thailand than in all of Iraq. And burning people alive.......horrible! I wonder how much of this is reaching the mainstream mass media in the Western countries.

It is, I think, important to keep in mind that the vast majority of Muslims worldwide do not support people who engage in such mindless and hideous acts of violence.

The main difference between the beheadings here and Iraq is that so far here victims are killed first, and beheaded afterwards.

There was one incident where allegedly one women was burned alive, after having been badly injured.

From what i can read in the media the situation in Iraq is far worse than here. I don't think that there is a possibility that things here turn as bad as in Iraq, but i do believe that things will get a lot worse than they are now, unfortunately.

The main stream mass media in the west is too occupied with the mid-east to give much attention to the southern insurgency in Thailand.

[hammered]

Hm.. As a matter of at least courtesy, if you are going to use an article verbatim, allowing for repositioning edits, as a post, please provide a link to the original, so that posters may read it.

Note the author is a journalist but is also a Conservative Member of Parliament.

Regards

Link

Michael Grove Article

/edit punctuation //

Sorry my technical ineptitude.Will learn how to provide links.Michael Gove is very well known as one of the sharpest intellects in the Commons.

I am sorry to disagree with your opinion on the writer of the article. He twists more than a few facts around to suit his agenda.

The most blatant omission of facts:

"And when it comes to foreign policy, when we choose not to intervene, when we decide that we shan’t get involved, whether in Bosnia, Chechnya or Kashmir, we are not respected for our modesty and restraint on the world stage."

Fact is is that in Kashmir "we" were very much involved. Unfortunately though on the side of the "terrorists". Parts of the funding by the US and Saudi intended for Afghanistan (Mudjaheddin and Taleban), to be channeled through Pakistan's ISI was diverted to fund Kashmir's rebels. It was silently accepted that those terrorist organizations operating in Kashmir had safe refuge and training camps in Pakisthan, which was and still is the biggest regional partner of the US.

How comes that Pakistan is the regional partner of the US anyhow, a country that has more than a few difficulties to separate the state from it's more than extremist fundamentalists?

As to the question of "guilt". As bad as Saddham was, he was not an Islamist, he was the opposite. Why is the war against terror waged against Iraq? Why was Iraq completely destroyed and therefore made a training ground for future Islamist terrorits, exactly as Afghanistan was in the 80s?

It would be a lot easier to fight Islamic terrorism if the US and Britain would not be led by Christian fundamentalists and murderous profiteers, which are equally repulsive.

Islamic fundamentalist terrorism is only such a thread because we have made it so, and we continue to make the same mistakes we have made in the past.

Another quote that disturbs me very much:

"Just as the ardent young followers of Hitler in 1930s Germany..."

I don't like these populist and emotive historical comparisons which do not stand up to closer inspection. Nazi Germany and Islamic terrorism are two completely different matters, completely different issues. I am sick of these people trying to rally support by comparing their enemies with the big evil of the 20th century. Especially when historical facts are ignored, such as the very clear and documented involvement of the US, especially US industrialists and bankers with the Nazis.

These people should be rather quiet with the Nazi comparison. There are a few funny and unrelated incidents, such as G.W. Bush's grandfather - Prescott Bush - was indicted during the war under the trading with the enemy act. Parallels today could easily be drawn, such as the personal business involvements with the Bush family and the Bin Laden family, for example. I am sure though that this is just a coincidence...

Anyhow, point being, yes, the Jihadists are worrying, their world views are deplorable. But the present leadership of the US and the UK are not one bit better (read this, not a world view i could share: http://www.newamericancentury.org/ ). They are two sides of the same coin. A solution to these complex problems is not possible with all of them. The earlier the Bin Ladens, Bushes and Bairs, and whoever else, are locked away the better.

Hi Colpyat

A commendable comment indeed. While many westerners dont like Bush and Blair (and super poodle Howard), very few realise the magnitude of their "crimes"

[A_Traveller]

Hm.. As a matter of at least courtesy, if you are going to use an article verbatim, allowing for repositioning edits, as a post, please provide a link to the original, so that posters may read it.

Note the author is a journalist but is also a Conservative Member of Parliament.

Regards

Link

Michael Grove Article

/edit punctuation //

Sorry my technical ineptitude.Will learn how to provide links.Michael Gove is very well known as one of the sharpest intellects in the Commons.

I have always wanted to use this & now I have a reason {italics above}:-

ROFLMAO

If he's the sharpest knife in the cutlery draw heaven help the UK.

Regards

PS I see that there has already been a rebuttal of the MP's grasp of reality, though I would question some of the assumptions made herein as well.

/edit add PS//

Edited May 2, 2007 by A_Traveller

[plachon]

Anyhow, point being, yes, the Jihadists are worrying, their world views are deplorable. But the present leadership of the US and the UK are not one bit better (read this, not a world view i could share: http://www.newamericancentury.org/ ). They are two sides of the same coin. A solution to these complex problems is not possible with all of them. The earlier the Bin Ladens, Bushes and Bairs, and whoever else, are locked away the better.

Hey, think you forgot a few other arch-crims, who make Bush and Blair seem like kindergarten kids. Thinking in particular of Cheney, Rumsey and Wolfie (soon to be ex-President of the World Bank).

From today's Guardian, an interesting quote from Geoff Hoon:

"Sometimes ... Tony had made his point with the president, and I'd made my point with Don [Rumsfeld] and Jack [straw] had made his point with Colin [Powell] and the decision actually came out of a completely different place. And you think: what did we miss? I think we missed Cheney."

It's an interesting interview article with many revealing insights from Hoon.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2070256,00.html

It really doesn't offer much hope about the vision and leadership of the present UK administration, then or now.

[ColPyat]

Hey, think you forgot a few other arch-crims, who make Bush and Blair seem like kindergarten kids. Thinking in particular of Cheney, Rumsey and Wolfie (soon to be ex-President of the World Bank).

Kissinger as well.

[plachon]

Hey, think you forgot a few other arch-crims, who make Bush and Blair seem like kindergarten kids. Thinking in particular of Cheney, Rumsey and Wolfie (soon to be ex-President of the World Bank).

Kissinger as well.

Ah, well if you start going back that far we'd soon be compiling a list as long as your arm of mass murderers and war criminals, which would be a great thread for the Bearpit I'm sure.

But coming back on topic, I'm really not too sure that fundamentalist Islam and southern Muslims in general should be taking the rap for what's going on down there, and how it has all spiralled out of control.

As you have said yourself Colpycat, the situation is incredibly complex, and it is too simplistic too point fingers at one cause or another. That includes assuming Islamic fundamentalism is too blame. I'm sure the majority of perps down there who are shooting or killing would not even know what Wahibism was if it bit them on the nose. I'm not sure I would. But I do know that there are laws of cause and effect in operation.

I'd like to compare the reaction across America and in LA in particular of the Rodney King beating video, and the video that was released around election time (possibly by Democrat candidates?) showing the Tak Bai massacre. Imagine how an impressionable youth, quite possibly unemployed, poor and with little education, would react on seeing those images and that video? But rather than riots in one city, which were quickly suppressed and efforts were put in place both to reform the LA cops (not sure how successfully) and start urban renewal programmes, in southern Thailand the reaction was general across the region and on top of a long, lingering set of circumstances, ensured it couldn't be nipped in the bud at source.

I'm not suggesting that the Tak Bai massacre video was the main or only factor, but just one of many over a long period of many years, that have added up to make disaffected youth, who feel like second class citizens in their own country, rise up and rebel (and for some turn to extreme violence), irrespective of any religious motive. I would say the religious side of things, is just a further catalyst and not the underlying cause. In fact, I would say that what is going on down there might be likened to a realtime Clockwork Orange coming to life. Call it a Clockwork Durian, if you like. Whatever, getting too fixated on the religious side of things is counter-productive and a red herring IMO.

[ColPyat]

Hey, think you forgot a few other arch-crims, who make Bush and Blair seem like kindergarten kids. Thinking in particular of Cheney, Rumsey and Wolfie (soon to be ex-President of the World Bank).

Kissinger as well.

Ah, well if you start going back that far we'd soon be compiling a list as long as your arm of mass murderers and war criminals, which would be a great thread for the Bearpit I'm sure.

But coming back on topic, I'm really not too sure that fundamentalist Islam and southern Muslims in general should be taking the rap for what's going on down there, and how it has all spiralled out of control.

As you have said yourself Colpycat, the situation is incredibly complex, and it is too simplistic too point fingers at one cause or another. That includes assuming Islamic fundamentalism is too blame. I'm sure the majority of perps down there who are shooting or killing would not even know what Wahibism was if it bit them on the nose. I'm not sure I would. But I do know that there are laws of cause and effect in operation.

I'd like to compare the reaction across America and in LA in particular of the Rodney King beating video, and the video that was released around election time (possibly by Democrat candidates?) showing the Tak Bai massacre. Imagine how an impressionable youth, quite possibly unemployed, poor and with little education, would react on seeing those images and that video? But rather than riots in one city, which were quickly suppressed and efforts were put in place both to reform the LA cops (not sure how successfully) and start urban renewal programmes, in southern Thailand the reaction was general across the region and on top of a long, lingering set of circumstances, ensured it couldn't be nipped in the bud at source.

I'm not suggesting that the Tak Bai massacre video was the main or only factor, but just one of many over a long period of many years, that have added up to make disaffected youth, who feel like second class citizens in their own country, rise up and rebel (and for some turn to extreme violence), irrespective of any religious motive. I would say the religious side of things, is just a further catalyst and not the underlying cause. In fact, I would say that what is going on down there might be likened to a realtime Clockwork Orange coming to life. Call it a Clockwork Durian, if you like. Whatever, getting too fixated on the religious side of things is counter-productive and a red herring IMO.

Kissinger was also an adviser of Bush during the Iraq war - the guy has his fingers in every piece of dirt where lots of people die.

But yes, it is fashionable to lump every insurgency in the world where Muslims are involved together into some sort of pan-Islamic extremist conspiracy that threatens our western culture. I am not convinced of this. I think this is a convenient excuse by our western extremists to rally support for their own agendas.

Down south i have a Wahabi friend who says that the insurgents are not Wahabis but old style Sunnis without much education being misled by very intelligent people on the top. He said that there are clear indicators where a jihad would be justified, such as a state forbidding the practice of Islam, and that is not happening here in Thailand. He would ideally prefer autonomy/independence, but not by violent means. Many educated southerners, also rather high up, have expressed very similar feelings to me about this issue.

Obviously there are extremists who have that sort of world view, and they have involved themselves in many such insurgencies with more or less success. But at the start there are people with sometimes rightful, and sometimes exaggerated complaints which inspire them to start such insurgencies.

If one looks at Kashmir, for example - the insurgency was not started by Islamists, but by secessionists, and only later has been taken over by Pakisthan and other Islamists, while many of the original insurgents of the JKLF have switched sides and now fight for the Indian army against the Islamists.

Down south the original issue was secession, and Islamism was an additional inspiration. There was no direct oppression here, only the sort of system and status quo that all Thais suffer from. Down south though people are not ethnic Thais, but Malays, with relatives just across the border in a country that is clearly more developed than the one in which they are citizens in.

And yes, incidents like Tak Bai have definitely contributed to the feeling of marginalization of them by the Thai state.

Lumping all these insurgencies together is IMHO counterproductive, it creates animosity by non-extremist Muslims and somewhat forces them into a corner they themselves do not want to be put in. Most Muslims reject this sort of violence, but they do also disagree with the wars which are led now by the west.

These wars have created nothing but more violence, have only benefited the extremists on both sides.

[Plus]

He concludes that the ideological motivation for the terrorist threat we face is an austere and pitiless twisting of Islam that offers young men redemption through violence, and the opportunity to exalt themselves by purging the world of the impure.

Hard to believe that the "forty virgins" is the only reason for suicide bombings while occupation of ones land isn't.

clubbers and shoppers of the West -in the eyes of the Islamist killers we are all slags, none of us innocent.That is the ugly and troubling truth.

That's a good point - every time someone is killed down south WE call them innocent victims forgetting that they are not so innocent in extremists' eyes. The inability to understand their views, reasoning and motivations lessens the effect of whatever measuers we propose for dealing with the situation.

Younghusband, what makes you so confident that Israel-Palestine issue is going to be resolved any time soon?