Scotland's leader tells Johnson: we want an independence referendum

[Scutty]

On you go Nicky you tell that fat effete English ponce what the deal is.

[aright]

4 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

Debating with the Brexit Brigade is like playing chess with a pigeon. 

No matter how good you are and how much you beat them, they’re still going to knock over the board, sh*t all over the pieces and still claim they won. 

 

No one has ever won a chess game by making only forward moves.

Remainers don't understand that sometimes you have to move backwards to make better moves forwards.

That's life.

[johnnybangkok]

15 minutes ago, aright said:

No one has ever won a chess game by making only forward moves.

Remainers don't understand that sometimes you have to move backwards to make better moves forwards.

That's life.

Yeah but not 50 years backwards. 

[aright]

17 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

Yeah but not 50 years backwards. 

We Leavers accept growth and change can be painful but nothing is as painful as being stuck somewhere you don't belong.

[johnnybangkok]

1 hour ago, aright said:

We Leavers accept growth and change can be painful but nothing is as painful as being stuck somewhere you don't belong.

What like being isolated from the biggest trading block in the world?

[sandyf]

On 8/5/2019 at 1:01 AM, aright said:

Pure obfuscation

I am not disputing your figures and don’t know where Farage fits into our discussion on Scottish independence and I don’t understand your reluctance to answer two simple questions.

What additional benefits do you expect to get by joining the EU that you wouldn’t get as an independent nation?

If you can’t identify additional benefits what’s the point in joining?

This is a debating forum and I regard the questions as reasonable and  questions which I presume the public north of the border have had a think about; but if you feel you don't have an answer to the questions there is nothing to debate is there? I won't ask this or other questions again and you can reserve the post for people who agree with you.  

 

What additional benefits do you expect to get by joining the EU that you wouldn’t get as an independent nation?

 

Co-operation - something that Westminster fails to understand. Over the years Westminster, as opposed to the country, has never really wanted to co-operate with the EU. I suppose that comes from the EU highlighting so many times failings in the UK administration. Just one example.

 

OLAF accuses HMRC of failing to use a risk analysis system used by other European customs departments to detect fraud, despite it having raised the issue at four separate bilateral meetings with senior UK tax officials in recent years.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39502316

[aright]

1 hour ago, johnnybangkok said:

What like being isolated from the biggest trading block in the world?

When you are the largest importer of German cars in Europe and one of the largest importers of Italian, Spanish and French wines and Spanish and French fruit and vegetables do you think those Producers and Growers are going to stay Stum while the EU says no more trade isolate them. If you think those people are going to agree to isolation because they have so many other customers on their doorstep just waiting to buy their goods you don't understand business. Business is hard won these days. However if they were to isolate cars, wines fruit and vegetables they can be purchased from around the world as any British supermarket can attest to. Last night I had snow peas from Zimbabwe with my main course washed down with a bottle of Lodge Hill Riesling from the Clare Valley.

Traders don't want isolation they want healthy bottom lines 

Isolation is one more weapon of Project Fear.

[transam]

6 hours ago, Scutty said:

On you go Nicky you tell that fat effete English ponce what the deal is.

What a strange choice of words....????

[aright]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

What additional benefits do you expect to get by joining the EU that you wouldn’t get as an independent nation?

 

Co-operation - something that Westminster fails to understand. Over the years Westminster, as opposed to the country, has never really wanted to co-operate with the EU. I suppose that comes from the EU highlighting so many times failings in the UK administration. Just one example.

 

OLAF accuses HMRC of failing to use a risk analysis system used by other European customs departments to detect fraud, despite it having raised the issue at four separate bilateral meetings with senior UK tax officials in recent years.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39502316

"What additional benefits do you expect to get by joining the EU that you wouldn’t get as an independent nation?

You are answering a question I didn't ask...……...the UK is not an independent nation it is a member of the EU...…..for the time being anyway.  

[RuamRudy]

What a strange choice of words....[emoji848]

Check his post history - he seems to thrive on winding people up.

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[evadgib]

One for you RR ????

 

[RuamRudy]

One for you RR [emoji41]
[/url]  

Isn't he in prison? How did he get access to a phone? Maybe YOP life is easier than in adult prison?

He certainly needs to spend more time thinking about what he is tweeting - Scots are happy to take orders from the EU but not the English? He clearly isn't receiving the Better Together talking points about stressing that we are being led by a UK centric rather than English centric government.

Out of the mouths of babes, as they say.

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[aright]

RR....It's interesting you have spent all your time talking about Darren Grimes but no comment on N. Sturgeon's statement...….

 

" Independence is about self governance, about being in charge of decisions that govern a country, and allowing us to co-operate on the international arena as a friend and ally as well"

 

How does that square with independence giving you self governance and being able to co-operate in the International arena then getting rid of it by joining the EU.

 

I don't buy the anti English argument, I know to many Scots as friends to believe that but it does point to a country which wants to be nannied.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

RR....It's interesting you have spent all your time talking about Darren Grimes but no comment on N. Sturgeon's statement...….
 
" Independence is about self governance, about being in charge of decisions that govern a country, and allowing us to co-operate on the international arena as a friend and ally as well"
 
How does that square with independence giving you self governance then getting rid of it by joining the EU.
 
I don't buy the anti English argument, I know to many Scots as friends to believe that but it does point to a country which wants to be nannied.
 
 

But now we are back to that existential (?) argument about whether membership of the EU leads to an unacceptable degradation in national sovereignty.

As I have stated previously (possibly not to you) I believe that the cost of membership of the EU (financial and sovereign) is more than recompensed through the gains received.

Membership of the UK means giving up far greater freedom, sovereignty and national wealth than the EU requires. Every country in the UK, not only Scotland, is being shortchanged by Westminster.

For example, by believing the myth that Scots are subsidy junkies, the rest of the UK directs its ire at us for having free prescriptions, free personal care for the elderly, free university tuition etc, while you don't get to enjoy such benefits.

But instead of questioning why we have such benefits while you don't, you should be asking why you don't have them too, because they are attainable and affordable if only you could, for once, elect a government not desperately protecting the status quo.

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[Brigand]

Wee Cranky still wailing like a banshee. Funny that the Royal Bank of Scotland said today it will bail to London in the event of independence because the Scottish economy isn't big enough to support them and it won't be just RBoS.  

[aright]

50 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

But now we are back to that existential (?) argument about whether membership of the EU leads to an unacceptable degradation in national sovereignty.

As I have stated previously (possibly not to you) I believe that the cost of membership of the EU (financial and sovereign) is more than recompensed through the gains received.

I must have missed that post .What costs and gains are they then? 

Membership of the UK means giving up far greater freedom, sovereignty and national wealth than the EU requires. Every country in the UK, not only Scotland, is being shortchanged by Westminster.

For example, by believing the myth that Scots are subsidy junkies, the rest of the UK directs its ire at us for having free prescriptions, free personal care for the elderly, free university tuition etc, while you don't get to enjoy such benefits.

Scotland has devolved powers and is given more money per capita than the rest of the UK. In the main we don't have ire over the benefits you have which we don't. Many people would be unaware of them.

But instead of questioning why we have such benefits while you don't, you should be asking why you don't have them too, because they are attainable and affordable if only you could, for once, elect a government not desperately protecting the status quo.

The truth is we don't have those benefits because we can't afford them although we are working on that. So what has devolved powers, extra money and the expense of free benefits produced? (it's amazing how many people feel "free" means it hasn't got a cost)

A country which has the worst drugs problem in Europe.

A country which has the worst performing NHS in the UK

A country which has a dismal educational record. In 2012/13 10% of the public including parents complained to the Teaching Council of Scotland. In 2017 it was 29%; last year it was 44%.   There was a time when Scotland could, and did boast that its system of education was far superior to that in the rest of the UK. Then along came the SNP...…...

A country whose current PM  said she wanted to be judged on the performance of education in Scotland and is still in office.

I wish I didn't have to say these things and I don't think they will be solved by independence and joining the EU. A little more introspection is needed. 

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[RuamRudy]

 

Scottish NHS is head and shoulders above the rest of the UK in about every measure. It is far from perfect, but I know of nobody who looks at the English NHS and wishes we had that.

But there is certainly a lot said about education in Scotland and I don't know enough about the subject to say whether there is genuinely an issue, and if so, who is at fault.

But neither of those issues are relevant when it comes to this topic - Scottish independence.

As to England being able to afford to treat its subjects in a more first world manner, you are partially right in that the UK government cannot afford that while also fulfilling their neoliberal agenda.

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[aright]

36 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

 

Scottish NHS is head and shoulders above the rest of the UK in about every measure. It is far from perfect, but I know of nobody who looks at the English NHS and wishes we had that.

But there is certainly a lot said about education in Scotland and I don't know enough about the subject to say whether there is genuinely an issue, and if so, who is at fault.

But neither of those issues are relevant when it comes to this topic - Scottish independence.

As to England being able to afford to treat its subjects in a more first world manner, you are partially right in that the UK government cannot afford that while also fulfilling their neoliberal agenda.

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Of course they are...………….

 

SNHS are now miles behind the ENHS in performance outputs on waiting times. That includes being behind on:

a) the 18 week treatment target - 4% behind ENHS

b) 6 week mental health therapy - 11% behind ENHS

c) Key Diagnostics within 6 weeks - 3% not receiving in ENHS, 21% not receiving in SNHS

d) Delayed discharges - ENHS 450 blocked beds daily SNHS 1,400 blocked beds daily (pro rated for population share)

e) The bright spot is on one of the cancer treatment targets within 62 days - SNHS 5% ahead

f) 31 day cancer target - 2% behind ENHS 

 

They certainly are relevant if the SNP gets voted out because of incompetence. Since they gained power the number of SNP's  has had only one direction of travel and its not upwards.  

 

[RuamRudy]

Of course they are...………….
 

SNHS are now miles behind the ENHS in performance outputs on waiting times. That includes being behind on:

a) the 18 week treatment target - 4% behind ENHS

b) 6 week mental health therapy - 11% behind ENHS

c) Key Diagnostics within 6 weeks - 3% not receiving in ENHS, 21% not receiving in SNHS

d) Delayed discharges - ENHS 450 blocked beds daily SNHS 1,400 blocked beds daily (pro rated for population share)

e) The bright spot is on one of the cancer treatment targets within 62 days - SNHS 5% ahead

f) 31 day cancer target - 2% behind ENHS 
 
They certainly are relevant if the SNP gets voted out because of incompetence. Since they gained power the number of SNP's  has had only one direction of travel and its not upwards.  
 

I would be grateful if you could link to those stats.

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[Slip]

7 minutes ago, aright said:

Of course they are...………….

 

SNHS are now miles behind the ENHS in performance outputs on waiting times. That includes being behind on:

a) the 18 week treatment target - 4% behind ENHS

b) 6 week mental health therapy - 11% behind ENHS

c) Key Diagnostics within 6 weeks - 3% not receiving in ENHS, 21% not receiving in SNHS

d) Delayed discharges - ENHS 450 blocked beds daily SNHS 1,400 blocked beds daily (pro rated for population share)

e) The bright spot is on one of the cancer treatment targets within 62 days - SNHS 5% ahead

f) 31 day cancer target - 2% behind ENHS 

 

They certainly are relevant if the SNP gets voted out because of incompetence. Since they gained power the number of SNP's  has had only one direction of travel and its not upwards.  

 

Your figures are interesting, and certainly back up your argument if not carefully cherry-picked.  Meanwhile, if competence were a deciding factor, the Tories would have been on the back-benches since before Cameron first came up with the whole ill-conceived idea for his own/ Conservative political ambitions/ motivations.  The fact that May continued down the path is just more embarrassing for me as an Englishman.

[aright]

25 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I would be grateful if you could link to those stats.

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Sorry I can't They were taken from a Telegraph report early last year for a reply to another forum which I was involved with. Unfortunately I kept the stats but not the link so if you don't want to accept them I will understand.

I can however support a more recent argument about the dissatisfaction with the SNHS with this

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/28/doctors-warn-patient-care-given-lower-priority-scottish-nhs/

 

It also emerged that performance against the SNP's pledge to give patients a legal right to treatment within 12 weeks for conditions like knee and eye operations has fallen to a new low, with only 72.9 per cent compliance in the three months to September.

Asked to specify what has deteriorated over the past year, waiting times (70 per cent) and staffing levels (71 per cent) were the most common response.

However, almost half (47 per cent) said that the provision of beds and equipment had worsened and 38 per cent said treatments, including operations and drugs, had suffered.

-----------------

50 per cent surge in Scottish patients being sent to rest of UK for specialist treatment

SNP ministers are under pressure over their “mismanagement” of Scotland’s NHS after it emerged the number of patients being sent to other parts of the UK for specialist treatment has increased by almost 50 per cent.

The Liberal Democrats urged Shona Robison, the Health Minister, to explain why the number of Scots referred for treatment to England, Wales or Northern Ireland increased from 427 in 2013/14 to 625 in 2016/17.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/30/50-per-cent-surge-scottish-patients-sent-rest-uk-specialist/

 

[aright]

13 minutes ago, Slip said:

Your figures are interesting, and certainly back up your argument if not carefully cherry-picked.  Meanwhile, if competence were a deciding factor, the Tories would have been on the back-benches since before Cameron first came up with the whole ill-conceived idea for his own/ Conservative political ambitions/ motivations.  The fact that May continued down the path is just more embarrassing for me as an Englishman.

The figures weren't cherry picked...….not my style, but unfortunately I cannot provide the original link. See Post 256. I don't disagree with your thoughts on the Tory party but this is a post about Scottish Independence

 

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, aright said:

"What additional benefits do you expect to get by joining the EU that you wouldn’t get as an independent nation?

You are answering a question I didn't ask...……...the UK is not an independent nation it is a member of the EU...…..for the time being anyway.  

Don't like the answer so try and change the context.

 

Brexiteers do not want to be blamed for the breakup of the union so they are coming up with all sorts of garbage.

The brexiteers voted on a cause rather than logic so why shouldn't the Scots.

[johnnybangkok]

21 hours ago, aright said:

When you are the largest importer of German cars in Europe and one of the largest importers of Italian, Spanish and French wines and Spanish and French fruit and vegetables do you think those Producers and Growers are going to stay Stum while the EU says no more trade isolate them. If you think those people are going to agree to isolation because they have so many other customers on their doorstep just waiting to buy their goods you don't understand business. Business is hard won these days. However if they were to isolate cars, wines fruit and vegetables they can be purchased from around the world as any British supermarket can attest to. Last night I had snow peas from Zimbabwe with my main course washed down with a bottle of Lodge Hill Riesling from the Clare Valley.

Traders don't want isolation they want healthy bottom lines 

Isolation is one more weapon of Project Fear.

I'm glad you have brought up the auto industry because EVERYONE in the know is predicting how bad Brexit will be for it and how catastrophic a no deal Brexit would be for exporters AND importers https://www.smmt.co.uk/industry-topics/brexit/

This idea that everyone will be rushing to do deals completely negates the fact that an OVERALL EU deal that covers all products needs to be done and unless that is done by the end of October (virtually impossible) the effects will be immediate and devastating.

Every single economist (remember those people...... you know, the experts) have predicted correctly the impact on the UK economy that the uncertainty with Brexit has brought and the vast majority are united in their stance that a no-deal Brexit will have severe and lasting negative effects on the UK economy https://www.ft.com/content/534e108a-4651-11e9-b168-96a37d002cd3 

The whole point of all this is Scotland would not have had any justification whatsoever in looking for a new referendum if it wasn't for Brexit and in particular, a no-deal Brexit. The Scots voted to stay as part of the UK in the last referendum and on the whole this was accepted. However, at that time no one mentioned Brexit never mind a no-deal Brexit, especially one that ignores Scotland's vote (62% in favour to Remain). The UK (English) government have brought this on themselves with their cack handling of this whole debacle and although I am not a fan of Scotland leaving the UK, I definitely think they should have another vote now that all the facts are in (I also think there should be another referendum on Brexit for exactly the same reasons but that's looking increasingly unlikely now).  

Scotland feels that it has been ignored (again) and is tired of an English parliament dragging it into obvious economic uncertainty on the basis of some ill-thought out jingoistic nonsense. And I for one agree.

P.S.  Please refrain from your condescending 'you don't understand business' rubbish. I've been running businesses for 20 years and currently employ 60 people. I know business.

 

 

[BritManToo]

2 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

.S.  Please refrain from your condescending 'you don't understand business' rubbish. I've been running businesses for 20 years and currently employ 60 people. I know business.

If you knew business, after 20 years you'd be filthy rich, retired on your Yacht, and not just trying to survive another year.

[aright]

4 hours ago, sandyf said:

Don't like the answer so try and change the context. 

 

Brexiteers do not want to be blamed for the breakup of the union so they are coming up with all sorts of garbage.

The brexiteers voted on a cause rather than logic so why shouldn't the Scots.

Or put more succinctly can't answer the question so change it. Can I repeat the question...

"What additional benefits do you expect to get by joining the EU that you wouldn’t get as an independent nation? 

Why not give it another go with reference to Scotland.

I have always claimed that Scotland should be independent if the electorate can get a

majority vote something Remainers didn't stand by at the EU referendum.

[BritManToo]

7 minutes ago, aright said:

I have always claimed that Scotland should be independent if the electorate can get a

majority vote something Remainers didn't stand by at the EU referendum.

I believe Scotland should have a 'leave the UK' referendum.

BUT everyone in the UK must be allowed to vote so be can be sure to get rid of them.

[aright]

37 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

If you knew business, after 20 years you'd be filthy rich, retired on your Yacht, and not just trying to survive another year.

I run 2 businesses one of them at the top end of the small to medium business category and I  export to Europe and to a lesser extent the USA so I do have some business experience. I have no desire to retire or own a yacht. 

 

[aright]

Sandy

The question was...……..

What additional benefits do you expect to get by joining the EU that you wouldn’t get as an independent nation? 

Is your best answer an icon or is it a cover up for "I don't know" or "none" 

[RuamRudy]

 
Sorry I can't They were taken from a Telegraph report early last year for a reply to another forum which I was involved with. Unfortunately I kept the stats but not the link so if you don't want to accept them I will understand.
I can however support a more recent argument about the dissatisfaction with the SNHS with this
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/28/doctors-warn-patient-care-given-lower-priority-scottish-nhs/
 
It also emerged that performance against the SNP's pledge to give patients a legal right to treatment within 12 weeks for conditions like knee and eye operations has fallen to a new low, with only 72.9 per cent compliance in the three months to September.
Asked to specify what has deteriorated over the past year, waiting times (70 per cent) and staffing levels (71 per cent) were the most common response.
However, almost half (47 per cent) said that the provision of beds and equipment had worsened and 38 per cent said treatments, including operations and drugs, had suffered.
-----------------
50 per cent surge in Scottish patients being sent to rest of UK for specialist treatment

SNP ministers are under pressure over their “mismanagement” of Scotland’s NHS after it emerged the number of patients being sent to other parts of the UK for specialist treatment has increased by almost 50 per cent.

The Liberal Democrats urged Shona Robison, the Health Minister, to explain why the number of Scots referred for treatment to England, Wales or Northern Ireland increased from 427 in 2013/14 to 625 in 2016/17.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/30/50-per-cent-surge-scottish-patients-sent-rest-uk-specialist/

 

If the figures were credible, they would have been exploited to the max by the Bitter Together mob but you stand alone in trumpeting them. Therefore I call as false your post. I suggest that you request the mods to delete your post unless you can provide a verified source.

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