Scotland's leader tells Johnson: we want an independence referendum

[johnnybangkok]

21 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I believe Scotland should have a 'leave the UK' referendum.

BUT everyone in the UK must be allowed to vote so be can be sure to get rid of them.

If you cannot contribute something of substance can I suggest you return to your bar stool in whatever sleazy Pattaya bar is still allowing you to drink and bore the rest of your deadbeat mates with your 'witty' retorts and leave the grown ups to debate. 

[BritManToo]

Just now, johnnybangkok said:

If you cannot contribute something of substance can I suggest you return to your bar stool in whatever sleazy Pattaya bar is still allowing you to drink and bore the rest of your deadbeat mates with your 'witty' retorts and leave the grown ups to debate. 

Ignore is easy to use, hover over my avatar, select 'ignore user' when it appears, then never read my posts again.

[johnnybangkok]

10 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Ignore is easy to use, hover over my avatar, select 'ignore user' when it appears, then never read my posts again.

Your best suggestion yet

[aright]

19 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

If the figures were credible, they would have been exploited to the max by the Bitter Together mob but you stand alone in trumpeting them. Therefore I call as false your post. I suggest that you request the mods to delete your post unless you can provide a verified source.

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The figures were given in good faith and I wish you would have accepted them as such , unfortunately you chose to accept them in bad faith not because they weren’t sustainable ( I later provided further evidence of general dissatisfaction) but because it suited your argument.

As the devils advocate I find it hard to believe a country with a population similar to Yorkshire, 2 large cities and 2 minor cities can’t run a health service and an educational system which is fit for purpose. The old chestnut, comparison to and criticism of the ENHS may make you feel better, but is not relevant since you have devolved powers. Scotland allocates its resources and is responsible for these shortcomings……..no one else.

If an independent Scotland, without the benefit of the Barnett Formula can run their Health and Educational system better than they are being run now I say “Good Luck to You”

Understandably, being sceptical of my first set of stats, can I provide further evidence with links just to show I don't stand alone on my SNHS views. As I have said before I get no pleasure in these opinions and stats but fail to see how independence will solve the problem......more introspection might. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45969866

Scottish NHS performance 'continuing to decline'

The NHS in Scotland is not financially sustainable and its performance has continued to decline, the public spending watchdog has warned.

Audit Scotland said health boards were "struggling to break even" and none had met all of the key national targets - with NHS Lothian not meeting any.

 

https://www.heart.co.uk/scotland/news/local/criticism-of-waiting-times-for-treatment/

Criticism Of Waiting Times For Treatment

27 November 2018, 14:42 | Updated: 27 November 2018, 14:43

The number of patients waiting longer than the Scottish Government's legally binding 12-week target time for treatment has increased by more than 120% in two years, according to new figures.

Over the period July to September, there were 18,278 people for whom the treatment time guarantee (TTG) was breached compared to 8,249 in the same period in 2016, ISD Scotland statistics show.

When added together with figures from the rest of this year, Labour said the Scottish Government's guaranteed 12-week waiting time for treatment had been broken an "astonishing" 53,396 times in 2018 so far. 

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/785061/Cancer-treatment-shameful-SNP

Delays in cancer treatment are ‘shameful’, SNP told

CANCER patients in Scotland are waiting up to 10 months for “urgent” treatment – almost five times longer than NHS target times.

The figures emerged as separate statistics revealed that there are 6,000 fewer hospital beds in Scotland than when the SNP took office in 2007.

 

A search will reveal there are many more if you are short of reading.

 

Regarding your claim “Scottish NHS is head and shoulders above the rest of the UK in about every measure” can you provide independent links to substantiate this?

[RuamRudy]

The figures were given in good faith and I wish you would have accepted them as such , unfortunately you chose to accept them in bad faith not because they weren’t sustainable ( I later provided further evidence of general dissatisfaction) but because it suited your argument.

As the devils advocate I find it hard to believe a country with a population similar to Yorkshire, 2 large cities and 2 minor cities can’t run a health service and an educational system which is fit for purpose. The old chestnut, comparison to and criticism of the ENHS may make you feel better, but is not relevant since you have devolved powers. Scotland allocates its resources and is responsible for these shortcomings……..no one else.

If an independent Scotland, without the benefit of the Barnett Formula can run their Health and Educational system better than they are being run now I say “Good Luck to You”

Understandably, being sceptical of my first set of stats, can I provide further evidence with links just to show I don't stand alone on my SNHS views. As I have said before I get no pleasure in these opinions and stats but fail to see how independence will solve the problem......more introspection might. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45969866

Scottish NHS performance 'continuing to decline'

The NHS in Scotland is not financially sustainable and its performance has continued to decline, the public spending watchdog has warned.

Audit Scotland said health boards were "struggling to break even" and none had met all of the key national targets - with NHS Lothian not meeting any.

 

https://www.heart.co.uk/scotland/news/local/criticism-of-waiting-times-for-treatment/

Criticism Of Waiting Times For Treatment

27 November 2018, 14:42 | Updated: 27 November 2018, 14:43

The number of patients waiting longer than the Scottish Government's legally binding 12-week target time for treatment has increased by more than 120% in two years, according to new figures.

Over the period July to September, there were 18,278 people for whom the treatment time guarantee (TTG) was breached compared to 8,249 in the same period in 2016, ISD Scotland statistics show.

When added together with figures from the rest of this year, Labour said the Scottish Government's guaranteed 12-week waiting time for treatment had been broken an "astonishing" 53,396 times in 2018 so far. 

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/785061/Cancer-treatment-shameful-SNP

Delays in cancer treatment are ‘shameful’, SNP told

CANCER patients in Scotland are waiting up to 10 months for “urgent” treatment – almost five times longer than NHS target times.

The figures emerged as separate statistics revealed that there are 6,000 fewer hospital beds in Scotland than when the SNP took office in 2007.

 

A search will reveal there are many more if you are short of reading.

 

Regarding your claim “Scottish NHS is head and shoulders above the rest of the UK in about every measure” can you provide independent links to substantiate this?

 

The figures were given in good faith and I wish you would have accepted them as such , unfortunately you chose to accept them in bad faith not because they weren’t sustainable ( I later provided further evidence of general dissatisfaction) but because it suited your argument.

As the devils advocate I find it hard to believe a country with a population similar to Yorkshire, 2 large cities and 2 minor cities can’t run a health service and an educational system which is fit for purpose. The old chestnut, comparison to and criticism of the ENHS may make you feel better, but is not relevant since you have devolved powers. Scotland allocates its resources and is responsible for these shortcomings……..no one else.

If an independent Scotland, without the benefit of the Barnett Formula can run their Health and Educational system better than they are being run now I say “Good Luck to You”

Understandably, being sceptical of my first set of stats, can I provide further evidence with links just to show I don't stand alone on my SNHS views. As I have said before I get no pleasure in these opinions and stats but fail to see how independence will solve the problem......more introspection might. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45969866

Scottish NHS performance 'continuing to decline'

The NHS in Scotland is not financially sustainable and its performance has continued to decline, the public spending watchdog has warned.

Audit Scotland said health boards were "struggling to break even" and none had met all of the key national targets - with NHS Lothian not meeting any.

 

https://www.heart.co.uk/scotland/news/local/criticism-of-waiting-times-for-treatment/

Criticism Of Waiting Times For Treatment

27 November 2018, 14:42 | Updated: 27 November 2018, 14:43

The number of patients waiting longer than the Scottish Government's legally binding 12-week target time for treatment has increased by more than 120% in two years, according to new figures.

Over the period July to September, there were 18,278 people for whom the treatment time guarantee (TTG) was breached compared to 8,249 in the same period in 2016, ISD Scotland statistics show.

When added together with figures from the rest of this year, Labour said the Scottish Government's guaranteed 12-week waiting time for treatment had been broken an "astonishing" 53,396 times in 2018 so far. 

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/785061/Cancer-treatment-shameful-SNP

Delays in cancer treatment are ‘shameful’, SNP told

CANCER patients in Scotland are waiting up to 10 months for “urgent” treatment – almost five times longer than NHS target times.

The figures emerged as separate statistics revealed that there are 6,000 fewer hospital beds in Scotland than when the SNP took office in 2007.

 

A search will reveal there are many more if you are short of reading.

 

Regarding your claim “Scottish NHS is head and shoulders above the rest of the UK in about every measure” can you provide independent links to substantiate this?

 

You gave unsupported figures that cast SNHS performance in a bad light compared to the NHS. I merely asked you to substantiate them and you have failed to do so. Mock outrage and talking about good and bad faith merely suggests that you don't like being challenged. If you post fake news, you should expect to be challenged.

 

As for the rest of your post, nowhere have I or anyone else suggested that the SNHS was a paradise. But all your links show is that there is a decline in performance in SNHS. That is correct, but it is not relevant to the point you tried to make but failed to substantiate.

 

But having failed to back up your post with verifiable fact, you now try to turn the tables and expect me prove the opposite. That's not how this works - you don't spout nonsense then demand those who pull you up in it prove otherwise.

 

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[aright]

10 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

 

 

You gave unsupported figures that cast SNHS performance in a bad light compared to the NHS. I merely asked you to substantiate them and you have failed to do so. Mock outrage and talking about good and bad faith merely suggests that you don't like being challenged. If you post fake news, you should expect to be challenged.

 

As for the rest of your post, nowhere have I or anyone else suggested that the SNHS was a paradise. But all your links show is that there is a decline in performance in SNHS. That is correct, but it is not relevant to the point you tried to make but failed to substantiate.

 

But having failed to back up your post with verifiable fact, you now try to turn the tables and expect me prove the opposite. That's not how this works - you don't spout nonsense then demand those who pull you up in it prove otherwise.

 

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I am not outraged and I have said that I understand if you don't accept them however it is you who continues to flog the dead horse. You are eventually going to have to move on  and face the challenges I have posed. Your stance is is one of a person who is comfortable in only one  zone....prodding.

I agree you didn't say the SNHS is a paradise as I didn't say the ENHS was either but you did make the statement “Scottish NHS is head and shoulders above the rest of the UK in about every measure”.  I have already said I cannot find the link my stats came from so have confessed to my sin, all I am asking you to do is substantiate your claim with independent links as you asked me to do, but you seem reluctant.....I wonder why?

Posturing is a cynical, wearisome mistress. 

 

[RuamRudy]

I am not outraged and I have said that I understand if you don't accept them however it is you who continues to flog the dead horse. You are eventually going to have to move on  and face the challenges I have posed. Your stance is is one of a person who is comfortable in only one  zone....prodding.
I agree you didn't say the SNHS is a paradise as I didn't say the ENHS was either but you did make the statement “Scottish NHS is head and shoulders above the rest of the UK in about every measure”.  I have already said I cannot find the link my stats came from so have confessed to my sin, all I am asking you to do is substantiate your claim with independent links as you asked me to do, but you seem reluctant.....I wonder why?
Posturing is a cynical, wearisome mistress. 
 

As you said yourself, you could Google it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/lesley-riddoch-let-s-remember-how-good-scotland-s-nhs-actually-is-1-4651003/amp


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[aright]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

As you said yourself, you could Google it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/lesley-riddoch-let-s-remember-how-good-scotland-s-nhs-actually-is-1-4651003/amp


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She sounds like an apologist for the SNP policies.

 

Is this the same Lesley Riddoch who said

 

Lesley Riddoch: Be sure to vote in the local elections ... and help pave the way to indyref2

 

“It’ll also be harder for councils to ignore Nicola Sturgeon’s call for one per cent of council cash to be allocated through participatory budgeting, if most councils are henceforth run by the SNP.”

 

it just looks as though Labour is heading for disaster north of the Border,” and added that after next week “Scottish local government should become at least predominantly something that the SNP run”.

 

So change is in the air — if independence-supporting Scots shake off voter fatigue, “vote till they boak” by putting SNP and Green candidates top but continuing to rank Unionist parties, and above all, put the date in their diary. Next Thursday is council election day.

 

I have given you 5 disparate links (and I have more) discrediting the SNP's handling of SNHS you have given me one written by a woman who has SNP supporter written all over her. Pathetic! Do you want to try again? 

[RuamRudy]

She sounds like an apologist for the SNP policies.
 
Is this the same Lesley Riddoch who said
 
Lesley Riddoch: Be sure to vote in the local elections ... and help pave the way to indyref2
 
“It’ll also be harder for councils to ignore Nicola Sturgeon’s call for one per cent of council cash to be allocated through participatory budgeting, if most councils are henceforth run by the SNP.”
 
it just looks as though Labour is heading for disaster north of the Border,” and added that after next week “Scottish local government should become at least predominantly something that the SNP run”.
 
So change is in the air — if independence-supporting Scots shake off voter fatigue, “vote till they boak” by putting SNP and Green candidates top but continuing to rank Unionist parties, and above all, put the date in their diary. Next Thursday is council election day.
 
I have given you 5 disparate links (and I have more) discrediting the SNP's handling of SNHS you have given me one written by a woman who has SNP supporter written all over her. Pathetic! Do you want to try again? 

You give me the express, the Hello for Brexiteers, and you try to pass off fake news as gospel. I give you verifiable data from the most staunchly unionist newspaper in Scotland and your only refute is ad hominen. Truly pathetic.

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[aright]

17 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

You give me the express, the Hello for Brexiteers, and you try to pass off fake news as gospel. I give you verifiable data from the most staunchly unionist newspaper in Scotland and your only refute is ad hominen. Truly pathetic.

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Yes but I also gave you the Telegraph, the BBC  and Heart and I have many others. My opinion of her was based on what she said, what other criteria would you use. I use the same sort of judgement when Corbyn writes an article in the Times or Telegraph about the government, economy etc and I have on occasion agreed with him but overall???....are you saying she's independent and not a dyed in the wool SNP supporter? You seem to have forgotten the Express report was a reaction to statistics provided by SNHS.  I have to assume you have no other independent links which tell us how the “Scottish NHS is head and shoulders above the rest of the UK in about every measure”. 

Denying the truth doesn't change the facts and it is impossible to change what you refuse to confront.

 

[RuamRudy]

Yes but I also gave you the Telegraph, the BBC  and Heart and I have many others. My opinion of her was based on what she said, what other criteria would you use. I use the same sort of judgement when Corbyn writes an article in the Times or Telegraph about the government, economy etc and I have on occasion agreed with him but overall???....are you saying she's independent and not a dyed in the wool SNP supporter? You seem to have forgotten the Express report was a reaction to statistics provided by SNHS.  I have to assume you have no other independent links which tell us how the “Scottish NHS is head and shoulders above the rest of the UK in about every measure”. 
Denying the truth doesn't change the facts and it is impossible to change what you refuse to confront.
 

What truth do I refuse to confront? Have you requested that your fake news post be removed yet?

http://www.businessforscotland.com/scotlands-nhs-outperforms-the-rest-of-the-uk-heres-why/

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[aright]

36 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

What truth do I refuse to confront? Have you requested that your fake news post be removed yet?

http://www.businessforscotland.com/scotlands-nhs-outperforms-the-rest-of-the-uk-heres-why/

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Is back to posturing the best you can do, but since you feel so strongly about it, why don't you request it. 

Your alleged truth that the “Scottish NHS is head and shoulders above the rest of the UK in about every measure”. I didn't make the claim you did and have not supported it with any credible evidence. Not that your comparison is terribly important in a post about Scottish Independence, as I said before Scotland have devolved powers and where it chooses to put it's cash is up to the SNP nothing to do with Westminster or the ENHS. If things are not as they should be the SNP must carry the can.

 

I see Nicola is very reluctant though

 

Nicola Sturgeon insists NHS waiting time plan 'not failing' despite record problems

NICOLA Sturgeon has denied her government’s £850m plan to cut waiting times is failing despite new figures showing almost a third of patients were treated after the legal deadline.

The Scottish Tory leader also said Health Secretary Jeane Freeman should be sacked if she failed to hit the next milestone on improving the 12-week treatment time guarantee.

Official data revealed the guarantee - which promises inpatient or day case treatment within 12 weeks - was missed for 31.6 per cent of patients in the first three months of 2019.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17674348.nicola-sturgeon-insists-nhs-waiting-time-plan-not-failing-despite-record-problems/

Denial is the way some people handle what they cannot handle and I don't think we are going to change each others minds...….so I will leave it there, we have started repeating ourselves.

[RuamRudy]

Is back to posturing the best you can do, but since you feel so strongly about it, why don't you request it. 
Your alleged truth that the “Scottish NHS is head and shoulders above the rest of the UK in about every measure”. I didn't make the claim you did and have not supported it with any credible evidence. Not that your comparison is terribly important in a post about Scottish Independence, as I said before Scotland have devolved powers and where it chooses to put it's cash is up to the SNP nothing to do with Westminster or the ENHS. If things are not as they should be the SNP must carry the can.
 
I see Nicola is very reluctant though
 
Nicola Sturgeon insists NHS waiting time plan 'not failing' despite record problems
NICOLA Sturgeon has denied her government’s £850m plan to cut waiting times is failing despite new figures showing almost a third of patients were treated after the legal deadline.
The Scottish Tory leader also said Health Secretary Jeane Freeman should be sacked if she failed to hit the next milestone on improving the 12-week treatment time guarantee.
Official data revealed the guarantee - which promises inpatient or day case treatment within 12 weeks - was missed for 31.6 per cent of patients in the first three months of 2019.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17674348.nicola-sturgeon-insists-nhs-waiting-time-plan-not-failing-despite-record-problems/
Denial is the way some people handle what they cannot handle and I don't think we are going to change each others minds...….so I will leave it there, we have started repeating ourselves.

The link provided which has verifiable data. The report concludes:

"The evidence available for comparison suggests that the Scottish Government’s approach to health service management – having a greater ratio of healthcare spending and resources to demand and overall population, as well as providing better GP access to lesson the pressure on hospitals – has made the Scottish health service more effective than that of the rest of the UK."

Why not try to refute this rather than simply resort to your limp insults?

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