How Many Are “Stuck” Here With No Way Out

[drbeach]

Good that you found a good job here, I wonder what industry you're in? Thailand doesn't seem like the type of place where employers are screaming out for talented foreigners. Most Thais think we're all English teachers. Seems to be a rare thing to find an expat employed in any other field. Just today a massage lady assumed that of me even though it's not true.

 

By the sounds of it you don't own any property back home, which would make a move there even more difficult. How about your parents? Will you be inheriting any property from them once they pass on? Normally that should be a way out for most of us, except those of you who are older than about 60, have no parents left and no assets of any kind back home.

 

I would recommend you stick it out here for now, as long as you can keep the job, but do put some money aside and plan for the possibility of returning home if you see that as an option or a necessity in the future. Real estate both in the UK and Australia is very expensive. I don't know how you live here, but it's common for families to experience a home downsizing and therefore a reduction in quality of living once they go back home. You might be living in a 4-bedroom house with garden here but may suddenly find yourself having to move into a 2-bedroom apartment back in Australia, at least until you earn enough to move somewhere bigger and better.

[heybuz]

I read on here from some who say they have no sympathy for those that did not plan for their life, well there are a lot that did but life dealt them a different hand, divorce which in later life leaves you with not much.There are also the others that tout themselves as financial genius's the ones that started working at 16 as a shiney arse in the same job for 50 years did nothing bought a house in the 60, 's did nothing except go to work and because of a property boom not through any planning became millionaires on paper. Now these same people come on forums and lord it over less fortunate people who maybe took the risks and failed. I have no sympathy for them they are the barstool SAS  of Thailand.55 my rant,I've had a few Leo's.

Edited August 11, 2019 by heybuz

[Bangkok Barry]

I'm trapped in Thailand purely because I would not ask my wife to leave all of her Thai family, several of whom live within minutes of us in the next moo ban. I put her first and have to suck up the inconveniences. To be honest. I'm pretty content outside of the immigration uncertainties and the strong baht.

[Lungstib]

I dont consider myself "stuck" but for sure I cant leave. Worked in the low pay, high fun adventure tour business, came here to work, 4 years later got married, had 2 kids, used all savings building a house and just after moving in my employer quit the country because the govt was stopping foreigners doing that job. Spent 16 years going as far away as Tibet and Papua to get work, always part time work but we lived like Thais and got by. M'bike accident at 60 finished my chances to work. No big savings, 2 Thai kids, decent wife, all contact with UK gone. Never leave Thailand now and getting a very small pension thats impossible to live on. Got two small plots and two small country houses, my son lives in one, and scraping by hoping no disaster comes to eat into my 400,000b that secures my visa. If insurance for us retired family men became compulsory I would be in trouble. 

[phycokiller]

Im stuck here, at least in SE Asia, not for financial reasons, I just cant think of any where better to go

[drbeach]

4 hours ago, cmarshall said:

I always thought the young Western guys who moved to Thailand were burning their bridges, unless it was a very short sabatical.  After you're here a while even assuming that you have been able to find work in your field, your skills are almost certainly out-of-date by comparison with your home country and your old network of cronies who might help you find work there has withered.  Your savings from working in Thailand are likely to be paltry making it hard to get established back in the homeland.  You'll need time to look for a job.  Renting an apartment can be difficult in some areas without work income.  Your stint in Thailand is not going to make you look very appealing to prospective employers.  

 

So, it always looked like a one-way ticket to me.  And you don't have the right to live in Thailand.  So, very dicey.

 

It's different for retirees who will have a portable source of income.  

Problem is it's not that easy for fresh graduates or those with little experience to find work back home. I have heard many people like you say things like this, but times have changed. What you are saying would have made sense in the 80s or 90s, not so much now.

 

Hence why some like to come to Asia. If you're bright, talented and have the willingness to start a business, you might find yourself becoming more successful here than back home, where there are far more regulations and most people resign themselves to working for a boss all their lives. Also, with the high rate of immigration to our countries and the move towards automation, we are finding it increasingly competitive. It's not like 20-30 years ago, where anyone with an average Bachelor's degree was able to find a job.

 

Also, don't forget those expats who are working for international companies here. Can't see how their experience would be any sort of handicap in the event of moving back home. However, unlike 30 years ago when international companies sent their staff here for 2 years at a time, paid for their move, the kids education etc. and they went back home afterwards, these days it's more likely a young, unattached man arrives, thinking he'll stay for a couple of years. Then he meets a Thai woman, gets married, has a couple of children and is still here 20 years later with no plans on leaving.

 

Another thing is that Thailand no longer needs the same skills as it did a couple of decades ago, when it was like Laos is today. Even in that country, I know a number of westerners who are being replaced by locals and expats from nearby countries like Vietnam and Thailand. In a few years time the mining jobs, engineering roles and all sorts of technical positions will all be filled by either locals or expats from regional countries. The good 'ol days for westerners will be gone.

Edited August 11, 2019 by drbeach

[fordguy61mi]

 

19 hours ago, bowerboy said:

So now we live in Thailand and my wife has permenant residence in Australia and I feel incredibly lucky that we could go to Australia anytime at the drop of a hat

You’re lucky you can do that in Australia. If you (meaning your wife) had permanent residence in America she could only be out of the country for up to 6 months out of every year to maintain permanent resident status. On the other hand, the green card in the U.S. is good for 10 years and not 4. Just thought I’d point out the differences. This is why my wife will be seeking her Citizenship here in the U.S. and gaining a U.S. Passport so we can travel back and forth without problems when I retire in 4 years.

Edited August 11, 2019 by fordguy61mi

[gearbox]

To the OP...

 

If I were you I would move back to Australia unless you are paid well enough to cover 1 mil per year international schools in Thailand.  The main reason for going back would be the education of my kids. From what I've seen so far good education is not much valued here. 

 

[drbeach]

2 minutes ago, gearbox said:

To the OP...

 

If I were you I would move back to Australia unless you are paid well enough to cover 1 mil per year international schools in Thailand.  The main reason for going back would be the education of my kids. From what I've seen so far good education is not much valued here. 

 

Thais think that their educational system is good. Also, international schools, despite being expensive are probably much better quality than Australian public schools, where they teach all sorts of garbage these days.

 

I wouldn't base a decision about where to live off of education of my kids, if it meant downsizing and reducing my standard of living. If he has a good, stable job here and he likes the lifestyle, there's no reason to move at this time.

[UbonEagle]

As you acknowledge, her visa is not permanent...my wife lived/worked in Oz for 10+yrs, has moved back here permanently now, but used to get a 5yr visa renewal for a minimal fee...now 3-400AUD yearly with the re-apply hoops and bullshit to jump thru, and the rhetoric in oz re immigration now only likely to get harder.

One to remember for everyone bashing the system here...they ain't alone

[BestB]

12 minutes ago, gearbox said:

To the OP...

 

If I were you I would move back to Australia unless you are paid well enough to cover 1 mil per year international schools in Thailand.  The main reason for going back would be the education of my kids. From what I've seen so far good education is not much valued here. 

 

I guess it all depends on where kids like to live. If they raised as Thai , in Thailand highly unlikely they would want to move to Oz but if they raised in Oz , they may want to stay there .

 

plenty of Thai with education locally and then getting accredited overseas. 

 

By the way, private good schools in Australia are not much cheaper than Thailand and Australian public schools are not much better than Thai . Do not see too many public school graduates getting into uni to do law or medicine or engineering . TAFE is where most public school graduates end up 

[watcharacters]

3 minutes ago, BestB said:

the hips of people that you saw

[Gecko123]

To the extent that "stuck" means taking a drastic hit to your standard or cost of living if you relocate, I think it's time to admit that almost all of us are "stuck" here to one extent or another. If you think that doesn't apply to you, my question would be whether you have crunched the numbers yet or not.

 

Repatriation requires a tremendous amount of pre-planning. Your expenses change as you get older, and items which were negligible expenses when you left might be huge when you are considering repatriation, i.e., out-of-pocket medical premiums and expenses, long-term care. God bless you if you had the foresight and means to hold onto a house back home during your stay in Thailand, but very few are in that lucky situation.

 

My strategy for repatriation is to delay retirement benefits until 70, conserve cost of living expenses between now and then while I remain in Thailand, and pay maximum attention to my health so that future health care costs stay manageable. Have also inventoried possessions and determined that around age 70 there will be a "sweet spot" in terms of depreciation and use value where the amount of stuff I will need to lug back home will be minimal, thus saving on shipping costs. I am trying to make the best use of my remaining time in Thailand by doing vegetable gardening, exercising regularly, and eating a super-healthy low-fat, low-sodium diet.

 

So, no, I do not feel trapped here, but like escaping from Alcatraz, leaving Thailand does require a lot of planning.

 

 

Edited August 11, 2019 by Gecko123

[Thaidream]

1 hour ago, drbeach said:

 

Also, don't forget those expats who are working for international companies here. Can't see how their experience would be any sort of handicap in the event of moving back home. However, unlike 30 years ago when international companies sent their staff here for 2 years at a time, paid for their move, the kids education etc. and they went back home afterwards, these days it's more likely a young, unattached man arrives, thinking he'll stay for a couple of years. Then he meets a Thai woman, gets married, has a couple of children and is still here 20 years later with no plans on leaving.

 

Another thing is that Thailand no longer needs the same skills as it did a couple of decades ago, when it was like Laos is today. Even in that country, I know a number of westerners who are being replaced by locals and expats from nearby countries like Vietnam and Thailand. In a few years time the mining jobs, engineering roles and all sorts of technical positions will all be filled by either locals or expats from regional countries. The good 'ol days for westerners will be gone.

While you make a good point- the reality of coming to Thailand in your 20s or 30s and being hugely successful is IMO a pipe dream- there are just not that many successful people from Western countries in Thailand that started decades ago and still here and successfu'.  I can only think of 5-10 from those early days that made it big in Thailand and are still going strong

 

Then there is the issue of retirement- what are you going to do when you are 65 and cannot work anymore.  You may have been relatively successful for some years but contributed nothing to your own countries Social Security Fund; a super annuation fund or other retirement scheme and thus you won't have a 'pension'.  Unless you have been able to save huge amounts through the years- you will be poor.

 

NOt everyone can invent the computer or Google rf facebook. In Thailand, as soon as you start a small business- and if it is successful- it will be copied 100 times over until everyone  loses money. There are just so many niches that are filled- although there aewsome franchises that could be successful in the right location but you have to well heeled already to buy into them.

 

Right now in the West there are still opportunities to go into a company out of College and work your way up the ladder.  It is 20-30 year from now when it will become harder as automation and Artificial Intelligeence will make success for many very difficult.  IMO the World will always need specialists- green tech; doctors; nurse; nuclear scientis etc.  Highly specialized, intelligent people will be in vogue always. At the same time- Governments and Social scientists need to really convene a major conference to decide how much AI will be allowed and actually needed in view of the life altering changes that will come.  

 

IMO- the conecept of a guarnateed income is not that far off and needs to be seriously considered.  In fact- one of the lesser know candidates running for President- Andrew Yang- has aplatform in which every US citizen will be paid $1000 per month for life. Think of how that would change the economy of a country; potentially eliminate poverty and allow people to live in dignity.

 

The question that really has to be answered is do we really need autonomous vehciles ; do  we need massive AI; do we need to send people to Mars- if the result is the ultimate degradation of our people.

 

You are right- the World is changing and changing fast- but is it for the better?  

Edited August 11, 2019 by Thaidream

[bowerboy]

2 hours ago, Skallywag said:

Wherever you go, you are stuck with a wife and 2 kids (5 and 7) who need to be raised for the next 12-15 years (the kids, hopefully not the wife 55)

Hope your wife has a profession and can work in Australia, as most parents living in a first world country need 2 incomes to raise a family.   

Good luck and if you are over 45, please consider a vasectomy, IMHO.

 

Being addressed as Grandpa at your kids high school graduation is a real bummer ????

 

Regards

Skally

 

Fortunately I seem to have a more positive outlook on the joys of parenthood...it’s not about being stuck with kids it’s about being stuck in a country with options...

 

Valid points though nonetheless 

[MadMuhammad]

20 hours ago, brokenbone said:

im stuck in the way of back pain, its too horribly painful to relocate with all that entails

Where are you located mate?

[drbeach]

2 hours ago, heybuz said:

I read on here from some who say they have no sympathy for those that did not plan for their life, well there are a lot that did but life dealt them a different hand, divorce which in later life leaves you with not much.There are also the others that tout themselves as financial genius's the ones that started working at 16 as a shiney arse in the same job for 50 years did nothing bought a house in the 60, 's did nothing except go to work and because of a property boom not through any planning became millionaires on paper. Now these same people come on forums and lord it over less fortunate people who maybe took the risks and failed. I have no sympathy for them they are the barstool SAS  of Thailand.55 my rant,I've had a few Leo's.

I completely agree with you. I have no sympathy with the now mostly 55-65 year olds (+/- 5 years) that were fortunate enough to be handed everything on a silver platter. The ones that got their degrees in say engineering 30-40 years ago when it was still free (in some countries) and then graduated with an average GPA and no debt, easily got a job because there was no competition for jobs back then, were trained on the job and then moved up the corporate ladder. They then purchased a home, everything went well for them, got married, had kids, are still married, kids have grown up and they have the audacity to lecture people when circumstances have greatly changed. Chances are, the jobs they worked in when they were starting their careers have since been automated. A bachelor's degree is no longer going to cut it - often you need a Master's degree to get your foot in the door. Not to mention pretty stellar grades, not just a pass or a 2 or 2.5 GPA. Then you have to compete with cheaper overseas hires. Often what happens is you can't even find a job in your field anymore, you have to work in a completely different career. I've seen it happen so many times. We're living in an era of globalization. Even Thailand will eventually have to adapt and get on the bandwagon. In the future, it's virtually guaranteed that more foreigners (from all walks of life) will be coming to this country, while more and more go to our own. Everything will become more standardized and eventually you'll be able to work wherever you want as every country will eventually be largely the same.

 

So the same thing that one commentator who talked about "young people burning bridges coming to Thailand" can happen when going in the other direction. Thais going to our countries usually end up working in massage parlours and Thai restaurants with little chance of doing anything else. Similarly, there are expat professionals here who've had good careers but when they decide to move back home not for another career opportunity, but for a lifestyle change or for their children's education, sometimes they end up taking jobs they are overqualified for because they can't find anything that matches what they've been working in. I've seen cases of Americans who are married to Aussies move from the states back to Australia who end up living in a tiny apartment (much smaller than they're used to back in the states) and running a fish and chip shop near the beach. Nothing wrong with running a restaurant or a small store, but is that kind of downgrade worth it, just to say "you're living the life next to the beach?" Personally I don't think so, but to each their own.

[bowerboy]

1 hour ago, gearbox said:

To the OP...

 

If I were you I would move back to Australia unless you are paid well enough to cover 1 mil per year international schools in Thailand.  The main reason for going back would be the education of my kids. From what I've seen so far good education is not much valued here. 

 

Thanks for this and yes completely agreed....

 

Plus I want my kids to be in a system where they get to enjoy life with a safety net and a society that truly values the young as the key to the country’s future...

 

Plus school fees as mentioned...not to mention insurance, possibility for wife to work part time, qualifying for Medicare and pensions etc

[BritManToo]

14 minutes ago, drbeach said:

Thais going to our countries usually end up working in massage parlours and Thai restaurants with little chance of doing anything else.

They can marry a local guy then asset strip him with ease.

That's always the best employment opportunity for women in the western world.

[marcusarelus]

2 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

They can marry a local guy then asset strip him with ease.

That's always the best employment opportunity for women in the western world.

I think you should add something about the guy being stripped as regards mentality.  There is a limit on Mentally challenged folks.  

Edited August 11, 2019 by marcusarelus

[drbeach]

45 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

While you make a good point- the reality of coming to Thailand in your 20s or 30s and being hugely successful is IMO a pipe dream- there are just not that many successful people from Western countries in Thailand that started decades ago and still here and successfu'.  I can only think of 5-10 from those early days that made it big in Thailand and are still going strong

 

Then there is the issue of retirement- what are you going to do when you are 65 and cannot work anymore.  You may have been relatively successful for some years but contributed nothing to your own countries Social Security Fund; a super annuation fund or other retirement scheme and thus you won't have a 'pension'.  Unless you have been able to save huge amounts through the years- you will be poor.

 

NOt everyone can invent the computer or Google rf facebook. In Thailand, as soon as you start a small business- and if it is successful- it will be copied 100 times over until everyone  loses money. There are just so many niches that are filled- although there aewsome franchises that could be successful in the right location but you have to well heeled already to buy into them.

 

Right now in the West there are still opportunities to go into a company out of College and work your way up the ladder.  It is 20-30 year from now when it will become harder as automation and Artificial Intelligeence will make success for many very difficult.  IMO the World will always need specialists- green tech; doctors; nurse; nuclear scientis etc.  Highly specialized, intelligent people will be in vogue always. At the same time- Governments and Social scientists need to really convene a major conference to decide how much AI will be allowed and actually needed in view of the life altering changes that will come.  

 

IMO- the conecept of a guarnateed income is not that far off and needs to be seriously considered.  In fact- one of the lesser know candidates running for President- Andrew Yang- has aplatform in which every US citizen will be paid $1000 per month for life. Think of how that would change the economy of a country; potentially eliminate poverty and allow people to live in dignity.

 

The question that really has to be answered is do we really need autonomous vehciles ; do  we need massive AI; do we need to send people to Mars- if the result is the ultimate degradation of our people.

 

You are right- the World is changing and changing fast- but is it for the better?  

I already pointed out the threat that AI is making in our own countries, one thing I didn't mention was off-shoring, which is another big issue. Manufacturing in many western countries like Australia is as good as dead. Thailand is a better place for that. But it's difficult to start something from scratch as it's all big corporations now. Being Thai wouldn't help any more either, it's a case of having the capital and know-how to do something. Everyone and their grandma is developing some sort of new "app" but there are tons of cheap programmers out there, whether Thai or foreigner, the chance of striking it big is rather small.

Although when I said people making it here, I didn't mean that hordes of 20-30 somethings would be able to all start a business and be successful. And no, contrary to what you may think copycatting is not necessarily a threat depending on what you're doing (it is in some sectors, rarely in others). If you have the right amount of money backing you, you can do great things. This however is not an easy thing for someone with no connections and no experience.

 

Realistically speaking, a young westerner or foreigner from any country for that matter is most likely going to have to find some kind of company who will hire him/her and work their way up. It's more challenging than in the west, that's for sure, but it happens. I know of quite a few examples. There are also far more foreigners in Thailand now than in the past. I think there is a greater chance of making it here than a few decades ago when there was nothing, as difficult as it may seem.

 

However, while there are still opportunities to work your way up the ladder in the west - it depends on the industry and competition is fiercer than ever. If you're living in somewhere like Sydney or Melbourne in Australia, or Los Angeles in the US, you'll be competing with large numbers of international student graduates who will compete for your job. It's often easier said than done. I have also seen lots of my colleagues start businesses back home, but mostly things like fruit juice cafes and things that if done in Thailand could yes be vulnerable to copying.

Edited August 11, 2019 by drbeach

[bowerboy]

1 hour ago, BestB said:

Australian public schools are not much better than Thai . Do not see too many public school graduates getting into uni to do law or medicine or engineering . TAFE is where most public school graduates end up 

 

Thisnis way off the mark...some fantastic state education in Austrlia but you have to choose the suburb/school for sure.

 

To say Thai public school education even exists in the same universe as Australian education is a stretch

[drbeach]

3 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

They can marry a local guy then asset strip him with ease.

That's always the best employment opportunity for women in the western world.

Yes, that's true!

[SteveK]

If I went back to the UK, I'd struggle to find a job paying 20 quid an hour. Factor in housing costs, which are ludicrous, ever rising council tax, currently 140 a month, the crap weather, miserable people and cheating lying government, I'd much rather be "stuck" in Thailand any day of the week.

[roo860]

If I went back to the UK, I'd struggle to find a job paying 20 quid an hour. Factor in housing costs, which are ludicrous, ever rising council tax, currently 140 a month, the crap weather, miserable people and cheating lying government, I'd much rather be "stuck" in Thailand any day of the week.

Band B, single occupancy in my town in Cheshire, £106 per month.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[BestB]

5 minutes ago, bowerboy said:

 

Thisnis way off the mark...some fantastic state education in Austrlia but you have to choose the suburb/school for sure.

 

To say Thai public school education even exists in the same universe as Australian education is a stretch

You have to look at the big picture. As I said in my original post , not many public school graduates end up

getting into uni, which is about the sane as in Thailand . Yes no doubt general education in Australia is better but if planning for the future both public systems produce roughly the same results. Then of course you must consider what happens after school ? Uni? And then ? 

 

I would hate to be in your shoes to be honest as you have some major life changing decisions to make which may affect life for decades to come .

 

if you look at the successful locals , they all have local education and then went abroad to get accredited more . Which is the better or best option I suppose only you can decide ????

[bowerboy]

Thing about property in Australia is that you can afford to rent a much nicer home than you could ever afford to buy (especially with today a crazy prices).

 

i will probably never buy a property in Australia or anywhere and am very comforatable with the choice (and it is a choice, it’s not forced on me by financial circumstances).

 

For retirement I am using super and managed funds rather than counting on a house

[BestB]

1 minute ago, bowerboy said:

Thing about property in Australia is that you can afford to rent a much nicer home than you could ever afford to buy (especially with today a crazy prices).

 

i will probably never buy a property in Australia or anywhere and am very comforatable with the choice (and it is a choice, it’s not forced on me by financial circumstances).

 

For retirement I am using super and managed funds rather than counting on a house

I think Oz rents in good locations are also very high. 5-6 years ago I was getting $800 per week for my 2 bedroom in Surry hills, the 1 bedroom in Paddington was paying $750 per week because it was a very popular building. 

 

I only know Sydney market , of course if you go away from the city things get cheaper but then all the best schools are centrally located or only in expansive suburbs. 

 

For me, I can not get my super even though I have not lived in Oz for almost 2 decades. By the time I retire, there may not be anything left from it knowing Australian government spending habits .

 

As said, tough decisions to make 

[bowerboy]

13 minutes ago, BestB said:

I think Oz rents in good locations are also very high. 5-6 years ago I was getting $800 per week for my 2 bedroom in Surry hills, the 1 bedroom in Paddington was paying $750 per week because it was a very popular building. 

 

I only know Sydney market , of course if you go away from the city things get cheaper but then all the best schools are centrally located or only in expansive suburbs. 

 

For me, I can not get my super even though I have not lived in Oz for almost 2 decades. By the time I retire, there may not be anything left from it knowing Australian government spending habits .

 

As said, tough decisions to make 

 

Mate you need to get up to speed with Superannuation...it’s your money not the governments...the government cannot spend your super.

 

Lets assume you left Austrlia 20 years ago and had 20k in super when you left...the Hostplus superaannuation plan has done 11% a year over the last 17 years.

 

Your 20k today would be worth 160k....that is your money mate and no one can touch it....it’s not government money and you can access it however you want when aged over 55 or 60

 

How long did you work in Oz and pay super for? If it’s a while then you could well of had 30k or 40k which means you have just thrown away several hundred thousand dollars for no reason.

 

You should look into it

[BestB]

Just now, bowerboy said:

 

Mate you need to get up to speed with Superannuation...it’s your money not the governments...the government cannot spend your super.

 

Lets assume you left Austrlia 20 years ago and had 20k in super when you left...the Hostplus superaannuation plan has done 11% a year over the last 17 years.

 

Your 20k today would be worth 160k....that is your money mate and no one can touch it....it’s not government money and you can access it however you want when aged over 55 or 60

 

How long did you work in Oz and pay super for? If it’s a while then you could well of had 30k or 40k which means you have just thrown away several hundred thousand dollars for no reason.

 

You should look into it

I can tell you I left a lot more in my super and it has hardly grown . Mine is parked with AMP. I have not thrown it away , still there and I still get updates but what would happen in 25 years is yet to be seen