Do You Have/need Faith?

[jumnien]

You must have something inside that gives you the feeling that everything is going to be alright, that life is worth living, perhaps that there is a path that leads to greater happiness, perhaps something that motivates you to be a better person, something that propels you into the great unknown seeking the unknowable... Remember, I'm not talking about faith "in" something. I'm talking about something pre-linguistic, just a sensation of somethingness.

[garro]

You have to have faith to accept something that isn’t provable. If you know something to be true then this doesn’t require faith only knowledge.

So are there concepts in Buddhism that are not biased on knowledge well reincarnation is one there is no proof that this happens so this must be taken on faith there is no proof you can get to nirvana so this also takes faith .

If a Buddhist woman gave birth to a crippled child her faith in merit and reincarnation would lead her to believe this child had done something wrong in a past life leaving this poor unfortunate child to be stigmatised for life. Luckily more educated people would understand this child had been unfortunate to have a condition that medical science and knowledge can explain.

So do you need faith as a Buddhist? I think you would have to have.

Would you be better of without faith? Most certainly .

Sorry bangchang but I would just like to respectively point out that Buddhists do not believe in reincarnation. Central to the Buddha's teaching is the idea of non-self so there is no self or soul to reincarnate. Many Buddhists do believe in rebirth however, which doesn't involve a self or soul

[chownah]

Faithlessness leads to depression and anxiety. Without faith one has fear. Without faith or fear, one is catatonic and unresponsive.

In everyone?

I must say im the exact opposit to all you say and i have no faith.

I'm wondering what you mean by "faith" here. Do you have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow?....or.....do you have faith that if you practice some skill that you will improve?.....or....do you have faith that by trying to overcome obstacles you will have a better chance of overcoming them?....or do you have faith in the intrinsic value of human life?...or do you have faith in the etc.?

Chownah

[banchang]

You must have something inside that gives you the feeling that everything is going to be alright, that life is worth living, perhaps that there is a path that leads to greater happiness, perhaps something that motivates you to be a better person, something that propels you into the great unknown seeking the unknowable... Remember, I'm not talking about faith "in" something. I'm talking about something pre-linguistic, just a sensation of somethingness.

I dont have anything in me that gives me a feeling of everything will be alright , why should I It very often isnt. As for life worth living , I know that it has taken 4.5 billion years for everyone of my acendants from the first spark of life through millions and millions of years to today this very moment. Every one of my mothers grandmothers ect has been fertile and found a mate for 4.5 billion years, That is mind blowing, to think that every one of us has a blood line right back to the dawn of time. There are more grains of sand in the Shara desert than people that could be here in my place. Dosnt that make life worth living? to know that this is it .No second chance ,make the most of it. Nature is so special without making up supernatural beings, spirits hocus pocus.

[banchang]

You have to have faith to accept something that isn’t provable. If you know something to be true then this doesn’t require faith only knowledge.

So are there concepts in Buddhism that are not biased on knowledge well reincarnation is one there is no proof that this happens so this must be taken on faith there is no proof you can get to nirvana so this also takes faith .

If a Buddhist woman gave birth to a crippled child her faith in merit and reincarnation would lead her to believe this child had done something wrong in a past life leaving this poor unfortunate child to be stigmatised for life. Luckily more educated people would understand this child had been unfortunate to have a condition that medical science and knowledge can explain.

So do you need faith as a Buddhist? I think you would have to have.

Would you be better of without faith? Most certainly .

Sorry bangchang but I would just like to respectively point out that Buddhists do not believe in reincarnation. Central to the Buddha's teaching is the idea of non-self so there is no self or soul to reincarnate. Many Buddhists do believe in rebirth however, which doesn't involve a self or soul

Reincarnation/rebirth? same same to most of us i think . So the child in my story was reborn...

[banchang]

Faithlessness leads to depression and anxiety. Without faith one has fear. Without faith or fear, one is catatonic and unresponsive.

In everyone?

I must say im the exact opposit to all you say and i have no faith.

I'm wondering what you mean by "faith" here. Do you have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow?....or.....do you have faith that if you practice some skill that you will improve?.....or....do you have faith that by trying to overcome obstacles you will have a better chance of overcoming them?....or do you have faith in the intrinsic value of human life?...or do you have faith in the etc.?

Chownah

I know the sun will rise, I know that practice makes perfect, I know that human life has has value (see my reply to mdeland)

Knowledge v Faith I will go with Knowledge

Edited March 22, 2007 by banchang

[jumnien]

Ban Chang, you seem to have a lot more faith in your knowledge than I have faith in mine. I don't have total faith in what happened 4.5 billion years ago, in fact, it wouldn't surprise me if scientists said it was 5.5 or 3.5 billion years ago as science develops. We are in the infancy of the scientific age and all must be taken with a grain of salt. I don't even have lots of faith that what Jesus or Buddha said 2,000 or 2,500 years ago is faithfully recorded without political agenda and faithfully translated into English. For that matter, I don't even have a high degree of faith in yesterday's newspaper; basically I take it as just entertainment.

One man has faith in something, another claims knowledge of it, which is just a deeper form of faith. A truly faithful Christian or Moslem or Hindu would probably say they have knowledge of God's existence, not faith that he exists. Nevermind.

Your quote "mind blowing, to think that every one of us has a blood line right back to the dawn of time. There are more grains of sand in the Sahara desert than people that could be here in my place. Doesn't that make life worth living? to know that this is it .No second chance ,make the most of it. Nature is so special without making up supernatural beings, spirits hocus pocus." Boy I couldn't agree more. In fact, I'll give your beautiful prose a big "Amen!". For me, as yourself, faith has nothing to do with supernatural beings or spooks. That said, I'll allow the majority of buddhists their beliefs in spirits and miracles. Live and let live. I share your deep awe and faith in Nature.

Edited March 23, 2007 by mdeland

[kayo]

These are some of the many things I have learnt and what I like about Buddhism:

Buddhism aims to awaken people to the limitless potential and value of their own lives. Buddhist philosophy and practice bring about a positive transformation in the depths of life, transforming fear into courage, deluded impulses into wisdom, and egotism to compassion.

Buddhism begins with individuals deciding to take responsibility for their own individual lives, reforming first themselves and their immediate surroundings and relations, and then gradually extending their wisdom, courage and compassion into a wider sphere.

Faith is important but it has to be faith in yourself first. Then you can pass on faith and hope on to others. Intelligence is not so relevant as far as I understand. Even people with a low IQ can be perform a good buddhist practice. It's the heart that counts. Intuition can be useful, it can be a shortcut to happiness. Instinct is more important. Wisdom is one of the ultimate goals. When you reach a certain amount of wisdom - which I believe most of us don't have, including me - you can transform poison into medicine and build that inner indestructible happiness, no matter how much suffering you are going through. According to my and others experience we can achieve this in this life. We don't need to collect points in this life and hope to reincarnate into a better person. What counts is now.

If the past is history and the future is a mystery, today is a gift, that's why they call it the present..

Enjoy!

That was an awesome post ave. :D

Re> that inner destructible happiness: To me, imo, this has been achieved. And we often find ourselves chasing past achievements throughout. I am currently undergoing a form of transformation in which I've truly lived and breathed several years of several different experiences that I approached fearlessly, and with some form of instinct I carried those years on in different approaches and guises as i got older, through three different countries and continents for far more years than I had expected to be gone at all.

Now I'm back in the UK after nearly in ten years, and when it gets to this time of night, and I can't sleep well (too cold all the time), I start to think that if I had a little more of that self-faith and wisdom (of intuition at least) and make it work all over the world, what do I need to do to make it work for me here?

Peace of mind probably. Something i seem to be losing drastically.

[camerata]

You have to have faith to accept something that isn’t provable. If you know something to be true then this doesn’t require faith only knowledge.

The whole of human endeavour would be impossible without faith. Every time we do something we (or others) have never done before we need faith, which to a large extent is confidence in ourselves and others. Einstein formulated the Theory of Relativity. We all believe it is true because scientists tell us it is true and that the atom bomb proves it, and we believe scientists are people with integrity. But we ourselves don't know it is true. We can't understand the theory, can't solve the equations, and can't understand the proof. But we still believe it.

In the same way, the Buddha achieved nirvana. Over 2500 years others followed his instructions and also attained it. We can't exactly understand the proof, but we believe it because those arahants were people of integrity. However, the arahants would never even have bothered unless they had some faith, and neither would Einstein.

[camerata]

"So faith has two characteristics: it causes the mind to become settled and composed and it inspires it with the confidence to leap forward. In sum, devotional and spiritual practice [the activities which express faith] constitute a preliminary meditation practice, settling and composing the mind in preparation for the higher stages of Buddhist meditative practice." - Rupert Gethin

[jumnien]

Thanks for grounding our thread, Mr. Camerata! Sometimes, we (I) tend to get a little flighty...

Edited March 23, 2007 by mdeland

[banchang]

The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry."

Richard Dawkins

[jumnien]

I'm not sure of the value of confusing faith for its opposite "blind faith". The buddha is reported to have talked much about faith as a necessary and wonderful ingredient to the spiritual path. As for close mindedness or "blind faith" as you call it, I would see it as a hindrance. Faith allows the mind and heart to open. Blind faith by definition closes the mind/heart.

[banchang]

Can i offer you this link to a BBC program made by Johnathan Millar about the history of disbelife, It is in three parts each an hour long so you will need broad band and some time! I post this not in an effort to convert but to educate . If anyone dose have time I would like to hear your views on the fasinating program.

http://www.veoh.com/videos/v290167nBNFCMmq

[jumnien]

My internet connection is quite slow. Can you sum up what the history of disbelief is. How do the disbelievers maintain their faith that that which they disbelieve is infact disbelievable. Seems very devotional.

[banchang]

I'm not sure of the value of confusing faith for its opposite "blind faith". The buddha is reported to have talked much about faith as a necessary and wonderful ingredient to the spiritual path. As for close mindedness or "blind faith" as you call it, I would see it as a hindrance. Faith allows the mind and heart to open. Blind faith by definition closes the mind/heart.

I would take blind faith as to belive without question or accept without proof, Blind in this instance dose not mean with eyes closed but mind closed to reason, I dont even want to get into the defenition of heart!

[banchang]

My internet connection is quite slow. Can you sum up what the history of disbelief is. How do the disbelievers maintain their faith that that which they disbelieve is infact disbelievable. Seems very devotional.

I think it would be easier if you just got broadband

[jumnien]

I live in the sticks. Great for birdwatching, lousy for internet!

[camerata]

If you are a Buddhist, do you have faith(blind or otherwise), or do you have intuition, intelligence, experience, or anything else?

I think you'll find that most people who were socialized into certain ideas as a kid will end up with blind faith in them, whether it is God, rebirth, ghosts, spirits or racial superiority, because that's the way the mind works. When we hear ideas repeatedly from people we respect, as kids do from parents, they get lodged deep in our subconscious even though we may later reject them intellectually. So people brought up as Christians have some blind faith in God and those brought up as Buddhists have blind faith in rebirth.

But it seems to me this type of blind faith is not necessary for practising Dharma. It could be an advantage, but it could also be a disadvantage, as teachers like Ajahn Chah and Ven Buddhadasa have repeatedly warned. It's up to the individual whether a devotional practice is meaningful or meaningless.

It isn't really a problem for anyone who adopted Buddhism rather than being born into it. Any activity aimed at changing the mind requires some faith (as I understand it the Pali word saddha is closer to "confidence" than "blind faith"), whether it is psychiatry - which is not a science and not verifiable by experiment - or Buddhism.

With Buddhism, the objective is not so much to make an abnormal person normal but to make a normal person a better person. The proposition that reducing selfishness/egoism makes us better is perfectly rational and can easily be verified by personal experience. So the idea that eradicating the conventional self altogether makes us "perfect" is a logical extrapolation. No blind faith is required.

As for what is required, I think diligence is the main thing, as per the Buddha's last words: "Strive on with diligence!"

I think faith is believing something that cannot be rationally explained. Faith in Buddha/God for example.

I think these are two different things. Faith in God/Heaven is faith in something that can't be proven until after death. Faith in Buddha is simply faith in a man who gave us a strategy to cope with life and death, and which can be proven in this life. The equivalent of faith in God would be faith solely in rebirth, which was not the Buddha's message.

[banchang]

Well said Camerata I agree 100%

Your first paragraph is almost identical to Richard Dawkins when he describes faith/belife as a mind virus inplanted in childhood and unditectable by the victim very much along the lines of a computer virus.

[banchang]

I live in the sticks. Great for birdwatching, lousy for internet!

Im sorry mdeland its a shame as its a very interesting program. I wont atempt to condense it into a few lines for you ,after 3 hours of listenining to an oxford academic i felt informed but unable to remember what he was on about at the begining, must be my age!

[jumnien]

I live in the sticks. Great for birdwatching, lousy for internet!

Im sorry mdeland its a shame as its a very interesting program. I wont atempt to condense it into a few lines for you ,after 3 hours of listenining to an oxford academic i felt informed but unable to remember what he was on about at the begining, must be my age!

Sounds like we have a lot in common. That's why, for me and my brain condition, I feel more humble refering to it as faith than knowledge. My brain's like swiss cheese - knowledge is too lofty of a term for anything happening between these ears!

Anyway, I'm a participant in a world-wide fellowship of Buddhists, atheists, agnostics, devout Catholics, Moslems, Hindus, and others who come together to find a common understanding to improve our lives and those around us. My experience is that the atheists and agnostics often operate from a far deeper basis of faith than the devout believers. In fact, sometimes the believers sometimes don't have a clue. There's that analogy of the fish not being able to see the water that comes to mind.

[chownah]

Well said Camerata I agree 100%

Your first paragraph is almost identical to Richard Dawkins when he describes faith/belife as a mind virus inplanted in childhood and unditectable by the victim very much along the lines of a computer virus.

I think its important to define clearly what you mean when you talk about "faith". As was pointed out earlier "faith" is often meant to be a concept like "confidence" when used in Buddhist scriptures. I could be wrong but I doubt that Richard Dawkins would describe "confidence" as "a mind virus inplanted in childhood and unditectable by the victim"....but maybe he would....I've never heard of him before.....maybe we should learn to be totally lacking in confidence......don't know.

Chownah

[jumnien]

I agree with chownah. It's important to understand what faith means to you. Too often those who toy with buddhism as an alternative to Christianity have allowed their idea of faith, prayer, meditation, devotion, salvation, etc to be defined by a fundamentalism that they have rejected. Unfortunately, they then assume that any religion that involves faith, prayer, meditation, devotion, etc. must be somehow flawed. They then must deny that the religion they are attracted to skillfully uses many of the same spiritual practices as the path they rejected. Needless gyrations. Listen to a teacher and follow a bit of his teachings.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sam buddhasa

[banchang]

Well said Camerata I agree 100%

Your first paragraph is almost identical to Richard Dawkins when he describes faith/belife as a mind virus inplanted in childhood and unditectable by the victim very much along the lines of a computer virus.

I think its important to define clearly what you mean when you talk about "faith". As was pointed out earlier "faith" is often meant to be a concept like "confidence" when used in Buddhist scriptures. I could be wrong but I doubt that Richard Dawkins would describe "confidence" as "a mind virus inplanted in childhood and unditectable by the victim"....but maybe he would....I've never heard of him before.....maybe we should learn to be totally lacking in confidence......don't know.

Chownah

I put faith/belife to as a way of defineing faith as a spiritual faith "it was my faith that kept me going"

If you say faith/confidence it is more like I have faith /confidence my car will start in the morning" I have every confidence my car will stars as its only six months old and fully serviced.

The interesting thing about the mind virus idea is it explains compleatly irational thought. A christian fundamentalist will tell you the world is les than six thousand years old but this same person could hold down a good job and not let this compleatley irational idea interfere with his normal life. How do you get 12 inteligent guys with degrees and good jobs to fly into tall buildings just with the promiss of 72 virgins( what did the virgins do to find themseves in this position?) A mind virus that the owner is compleatly unaware of would explain this.

Its not just religion ,politics can also have its own virus , being from England I have a choice of Labour on the left or conservative on the right. My family was allways very conservative I had conservative values instilled into me as a child by my parents. As a result of this I find it realy hard to vote for labour even through the conservatives have been in compleat disarray and unalectable , my mind virus is telling me to ignor all evidence and vote coservative.

Look at your own life, see if there is somthing that dispite all evidence you still belive (maybe supporting a football team that your farther suported,all evidence sugests they are crap and will never do any good but you just cant switch to man united!)

here endeth my sermon

[camerata]

Getting back to faith in the context of Buddhism... Thanissaro Bhikkhu covers the subject every which way in his excellent essay, Faith in Awakening.

"But even though the Buddha recommends tolerance and a healthy skepticism toward matters of faith, he also makes a conditional request about faith: If you sincerely want to put an end to suffering - that's the condition - you should take certain things on faith, as working hypotheses, and then test them through following his path of practice."

[Pepe']

Faith (saddhā / śraddhā) is an important constituent element of the teachings of the Buddha - both in the Theravada tradition and especially in the Mahayana. It betokens faith in the reliability of the Buddha as a truly Awakened guide and confident trust in the truth of the Buddha's teachings (his Dharma). It can be inspired in part by the charisma of the Buddha himself. Buddhists claim that it is certainly not "blind faith" in just anyone and anything.

In the Kalama Sutta the Buddha himself argues against "blind faith" based simply on authority, tradition or specious reasoning; but Gautama, the Buddha himself, and his Buddhism are exempted by Buddhists from this prohibition: for even though one's own experience is emphasized in accepting Buddha and Buddhism, the counsel of the wise (implicitly meaning a Buddha, ultimately Gautama himself, or a Buddhist master well versed in Dharma) should always be depended upon -- whence there remains a requirement for a degree of trusting confidence in Buddhism, essentially in the authority of Gautama as the ultimate Buddha, based on his spiritual attainment and salvational knowledge.

Faith in Buddhism centres on the authority of Gautama as a supremely Awakened being, by assenting to his unexcelled role as teacher of both humans and gods, to the truth of his Dharma (spiritual Doctrine), and in accepting the Sangha (community of spiritually developed followers). Faith in Buddhism can be said to function as a form of motor, which propels the Buddhist practitioner towards the goal of Awakening (bodhi) and Nirvana.

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Thank you mdeland. Your words were very well thought out and inspirational.

Yes faith is a cornerstone. However as one remains or tries to remain stead fast in faith a wonderful side effect takes place while remaining steady in practice.

Practical realization. That is to say, intangible concepts or mere philisophical beliefs become experiential in a way that is hard for me to describe in words.

The truth or trueness of Buddha's words become self evident in a practical tangible way at the same time remaining subtle.

You know what it is when it happens to you. Some of the old Pali texts compare this experience to a drop of water found by one who is dying of thirst in the desert.

Or a cup of ambrosial nectar that is more satisfying than anything ever tasted before, whose taste will never be forgotten...

[sabaijai]

Practical realization. That is to say, intangible concepts or mere philisophical beliefs become experiential in a way that is hard for me to describe in words.

The truth or trueness of Buddha's words become self evident in a practical tangible way at the same time remaining subtle.

You know what it is when it happens to you. Some of the old Pali texts compare this experience to a drop of water found by one who is dying of thirst in the desert.

Or a cup of ambrosial nectar that is more satisfying than anything ever tasted before, whose taste will never be forgotten...

Good point, here is yet another aspect of how faith applies in Buddhism.

[chownah]

Is faith what is required to have a positive attitude in life...in general?

[Pepe']

Is faith what is required to have a positive attitude in life...in general?

-------------

I think that's a good question. I'm not sure how to answer but I have a thought.

I have friends and neighbors that are atheists who are very positive up beat people.

I also know people who are very serious about their Christian or Buddhist beliefs that are well, some what negative.

Some people are very positive about football or NASCAR but don't believe much in anything in particular. It's all 9 to 5 thank God it's Friday.

They seem happy in many ways but are making no progress, no evolution.

There is no concept of dharma. No concept of karma. So they very positively go 'round and 'round again trapped in the cycle of repeated birth and death infinitum.

Anyway back to your original question.

One can have faith in one's self, which more often than not is based on ego and illusion.

Or one can have faith in a tried and true method to achieve liberation from the material condition of life.

Of course one has to be fortunate enough to come in contact with this information and then be able to recognize it's value, then of course be able to put it to use...