Germany asks for forgiveness as Poland marks 80th anniversary of war

[metisdead]

Off topic trolling posts have been removed. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by metisdead

[Morch]

4 hours ago, usviphotography said:

Asking for "forgiveness" for something that happened before you were even born is simply pathetic and a symptom of why Germany is unlikely to exist within a couple of decades. Ironically, invasion by Russia is probably the only thing that could save Germany at this point. 

 

"Germany is unlikely to exist within a couple of decades"

 

Nonsense.

 

"invasion by Russia is probably the only thing that could save Germany at this point."

 

Sounds more like a a Russian troll's wet dream.

[olfu]

Its funny to read all this blabbering when in reality facts don't exist--only explanations do.

And one of it this apology.

[blny]

Germany has never paid for the murders and destruction of Poland. Only my city, Warsaw: 
By January 1945, 85% of the buildings were destroyed: 25% as a result of the Uprising, 35% as a result of systematic German actions after the uprising, and the rest as a result of the earlier Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, and the September 1939 campaign.^[7] Material losses are estimated at 10,455 buildings, 923 historical buildings (94%), 25 churches, 14 libraries including the National Library, 81 primary schools, 64 high schools, University of Warsaw and Warsaw University of Technology, and most of the historical monuments.^[7] Almost a million inhabitants lost all of their possessions.^[7] The exact amount of losses of private and public property as well as pieces of art, monuments of science and culture is unknown but considered enormous. Studies done in the late 1940s estimated total damage at about US$30 billion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_material_losses_during_World_War_II

The vast majority of German killers have escaped punishment,  Heinz Reinefarth responsible for the deaths of 50,000 civilians in Warsaw, after the war he became mayor and a member of parliament Schleswig-Holstien Landtag. 

You must understand that the occupation and behavior of the Germans in Poland was extreme, for every 1000 inhabitants we lost 220!!!! People from Western Europe do not understand that the occupation in Poland was 100 times heavier than, for example, in France.

 

[Number 6]

At this point I just feel really sorry for Germans. They have nothing to apologise for. No one was any real part of the Nazi regime. Banging on them endlessly comes from a very obnoxious and strident few groups. I'm so bored by it.

 

War is really ugly. It ruins nations and lives. The world is complicated.

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Number 6

[cdnvic]

Any more links to stories from hate groups, holocaust deniers, or others like them (removed) will result in a long suspension. Thaivisa will not give them a platform.

[bristolboy]

3 hours ago, Number 6 said:

At this point I just feel really sorry for Germans. They have nothing to apologise for. No one was any real part of the Nazi regime. Banging on them endlessly comes from a very obnoxious and strident few groups. I'm so bored by it.

 

War is really ugly. It ruins nations and lives. The world is complicated.

 

Before and during the war the pool of Nazis was wide and deep. After the war it inexplicably evaporated.

[usviphotography]

4 hours ago, blny said:

You must understand that the occupation and behavior of the Germans in Poland was extreme, for every 1000 inhabitants we lost 220!!!! People from Western Europe do not understand that the occupation in Poland was 100 times heavier than, for example, in France.

 

France and Germany signed an Armistice less than two months after the start of Fall Gelb. German soldiers remained in Northern France under the terms of that agreement until the UK also came to terms, but for France, the war was pretty much over in June of 1940 and they had it pretty good until the Invasion of Normandy brought the war back to their shores. Everybody in the West knows this. Everybody in the West also knows that Poland suffered. But it is 2019 now. Pretty ridiculous to be asking for reparations at this late date, and Poland already relinquished their claims to most reparations in exchange for Germany permanently ceding East Prussia to them. 

[Number 6]

20 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Before and during the war the pool of Nazis was wide and deep. After the war it inexplicably evaporated.

There is virtually no one left that lived under that regime let alone participated in it. It's not right to institutionalize this hatred of Germans and Germany. It's far and away one of the most democratic nations on the planet.

 

It's history. 1936 was nearly a century ago.

[jondoe18]

19 hours ago, usviphotography said:

 But it is 2019 now. Pretty ridiculous to be asking for reparations at this late date

You don't know what's going on under the carpet.
Things are much more complicated than this.

[JamesBlond]

One should ask how far Germany's continuing war-guilt influences the course of modern Europe. Desperate to clear themselves of the past, they have overcompensated and swung too far in the opposite direction, which has only created new problems - and the reemergence of the far right - as we have seen. All they had to do was not overdo it. They screwed up again.

[Scott]

Troll post removed.

[blny]

On 9/3/2019 at 10:30 PM, usviphotography said:

But it is 2019 now. Pretty ridiculous to be asking for reparations at this late date, and Poland already relinquished their claims to most reparations in exchange for Germany permanently ceding East Prussia to them. 

Tell that to my grandmother (she is over 90) who saw with her own eyes how the Germans killed her father and my great grandfather and robbed our home. My next grandmother (RIP) brother was also killed by the Germans, and my grandfather (RIP) was a partisan.

In Poland, during the war, the Germans killed on an incredible scale, but they also stole everything that had any value.
There was a previously unknown film from Warsaw 1939 when the Germans robbed the State Zoological Museum 03:18:

Hey germans, maybe you recognize your dad or grandfather ?? 
German thieves took over half a million works of art from Poland, ask your father or grandfather where did these paintings and other antiques come from in your homes, thieves ...
 
Sea of debris, this is what Warsaw looked like after the Germans left.

Before WWII, Poland had 389 thousand square kilometers, after 312 thousand square kilometers. 48% of the territory before WWII was taken over by soviet union, now old polish city like Wilno is the capital of Lithuania, Grodno, Brest, Lida etc. is in Belarus, Lwow (the third largest city in Poland before WW II), Stanislawow, Ternopil, Stryj, Sambor etc. is part of Ukraine. USA, CCCP and UK give us part of east Germany. For example: Wrocław (Breslau), Szczecin (Sttetin) or Kołobrzeg (Kolberg) were destroyed from 80 to 95%. Poland had to rebuild them. 

After 1945, Poland was not a free country, we were under a second occupation, this time communist from Russia. We could not do anything about reparations from the Germans, this was the will of Russia.
When we regained freedom after 1989, we wanted to join NATO and the EU, if we talked about it then, the Germans would block us.
So, now its time for justice...

Edited September 6, 2019 by blny

[tgw]

5 minutes ago, blny said:

So, now its time for justice...

Revenge against perpetrators' grandchildren can feel good but it isn't justice.

[tgw]

and if I may add, Germany was not responsible for WW I.

 

a major cause of WW II was the unfair treatment of Germany at the end of WW I.

 

yes, Hitler was a piece of sh!t and many (not all! less than the majority in fact) Germans were responsible for supporting him.

 

but if you look for the root cause of Germany's demise in the 20th century, have a look at Wilhelm I. this pr!ck doomed Germany just because he wanted to be Kaiser.

 

the result today is that Germany is pretty much finished both as a country and as a Nation.

the country is limited to administering its territory and the Nation slowly dissolves and the remains are sorry to be German.

 

How is that as a revenge?

Edited September 6, 2019 by tgw

[tlandtday]

It takes two to tango.  The Germans are not innocent nor are those they fought against.  War brings out the worst in all.  Stalin was a mass killer who slaughtered millions of his own people as well as Ukranians in times of peace.  And he was an ally?

 

What about the Russians apologizing for killing millions?  The Chinese who killed their own people? The Japanese from WW2?  The Italians who fought with them.  Germany has paid heavily for its actions in WW2.  Time to bury the hatchet.  Current Germans are nothing but innocent bystanders.

 

 

[jany123]

On 9/2/2019 at 8:56 AM, Emdog said:

Soviet Union only went to war with Germany after Germany invaded Russia. They were just fine with deal until that happened.

Perhaps true, but they certainly weren’t alone in staying out of the fray until attacked (Yes... I’m lookin at U, USA), so as to this point, what’s your point?.... and... does that somehow detract from the fact that the downfall of the third Reich was thanks to Russia, as was the central point of the quote?

 

[jondoe18]

On 9/7/2019 at 12:41 AM, tgw said:

and if I may add, Germany was not responsible for WW I.

 

a major cause of WW II was the unfair treatment of Germany at the end of WW I

It was the same kind of clash we see now between China and the US

for world domination.

Only then Germany was aspiring and the UK was a weakening empire.
The Berlin – Baghdad railway was then what Belt and Road Initiative is now.

Looking at it this way there was only one big war with a break to charge the battery.

[jondoe18]

On 9/7/2019 at 12:41 AM, tgw said:

yes, Hitler was a piece of sh!t and many (not all! less than the majority in fact) Germans were responsible for supporting him.

 

Had Hitler not been born, the Germans would have found another psychopath.
Hunger for colonies and domination was huge in the nation.

On 9/7/2019 at 12:41 AM, tgw said:

but if you look for the root cause of Germany's demise in the 20th century, have a look at Wilhelm I. this pr!ck doomed Germany just because he wanted to be Kaiser

You probably saw a picture of crowds on which Hitler is also (from 1914) enjoying

the outbreak of war...so not just Wilhelm.

[Morch]

On 9/7/2019 at 12:28 AM, tgw said:

Revenge against perpetrators' grandchildren can feel good but it isn't justice.

 

What "revenge" are you on about, exactly?

[tgw]

7 hours ago, Morch said:

 

What "revenge" are you on about, exactly?

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1121184-germany-asks-for-forgiveness-as-poland-marks-80th-anniversary-of-war/?do=findComment&comment=14545126

Edited September 8, 2019 by tgw

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, tgw said:

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1121184-germany-asks-for-forgiveness-as-poland-marks-80th-anniversary-of-war/?do=findComment&comment=14545126

 

Yes, and? What does it have to do with "revenge"? Bringing up past events and wrongs is not a revenge. Even discussing reparations or return of stolen property isn't quite a "revenge".

[tgw]

8 hours ago, jondoe18 said:

Had Hitler not been born, the Germans would have found another psychopath.
Hunger for colonies and domination was huge in the nation.

War had no support among Germans in the early 30ies. There was no hunger for colonies, most Germans were very poor.

Hitler always publicly positioned himself as a peacekeeper, all through his attack on Poland. The reason was that Germans were against the war, and Hitler would have lost the public's support had he been seen as a warmonger.
The German public appeared numbed by propaganda when he finally attacked Poland.

Edited September 8, 2019 by tgw

[bangrak]

On 9/2/2019 at 2:08 AM, ratcatcher said:

At what point do apologies cease to have real meaning. After 1, 2 or 3 generations? Just how far back in history do we have to go to apologize to countries that were colonized by colonial powers of the 18th & 19th centuries?

Some in the USA are demanding reparations for those descendents of slaves. Where to draw the line? 

I think the Poles and other nations that were crushed under the Nazi regime have realized that Germany and in turn Japan have paid their debt to society by their non aggressive actions over the last 80 years.  

The ones who haven't for sure paid any of their, massive, debt to Poland are the Russians, nor even formally apologised till now...

[tgw]

24 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Yes, and? What does it have to do with "revenge"? Bringing up past events and wrongs is not a revenge. Even discussing reparations or return of stolen property isn't quite a "revenge".

Almost none of the the people who directly suffered from Hitler and his accomplices nor the perpetrators are around anymore. In Poland, anti-German feelings are still strong among some people. The tonality of the post I quoted "hey Germans... now it's time for justice" - while I can understand it, I feel that antagonizing current Germans for the horrible crimes committed during the 3rd Reich is not productive.

BTW, Germans as a whole, not just NAZI-supporters, paid a very dear price for what the NAZIs did. Although my grandfather was comparatively lucky in the war, his life has nonetheless been destroyed by the NAZIs. His home town is now in Poland. It's time to let the issues rest.

Time to forget? no. definitely not. but there is no need to let Hitler poison our lives now.

 

Edited September 8, 2019 by tgw

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, tgw said:

Almost none of the the people who directly suffered from Hitler and his accomplices nor the perpetrators are around anymore. In Poland, anti-German feelings are still strong among some people. The tonality of the post I quoted "hey Germans... now it's time for justice" - while I can understand it, I feel that antagonizing current Germans for the horrible crimes committed during the 3rd Reich is not productive.

BTW, Germans as a whole, not just NAZI-supporters, paid a very dear price for what the NAZIs did. Although my grandfather was comparatively lucky in the war, his life has nonetheless been destroyed by the NAZIs. His home town is now in Poland. It's time to let the issues rest.

Time to forget? no. definitely not. but there is no need to let Hitler poison our lives now.

 

 

And yet, nothing much to do with "revenge". People, even two generations down the line, having issues, bad sentiments and negatives views is legit - even if one doesn't feel the same.

[tgw]

9 minutes ago, Morch said:

And yet, nothing much to do with "revenge". People, even two generations down the line, having issues, bad sentiments and negatives views is legit - even if one doesn't feel the same.

legit but wrong in the sense of "not fair".

 

what justice is there in demanding reparations from Germans who themselves lost everything and more in the war? none.

if it's not justice, what can it be?

 

Edited September 8, 2019 by tgw

[Morch]

1 minute ago, tgw said:

legit but wrong in the sense of "not fair".

 

what justice is there in demanding reparations from Germans who themselves lost everything and more in the war? none.

if it's not justice, what can it be?

 

 

As far as I'm aware, reparations aren't personal, but made on a country/government level. 

I wouldn't know about "justice", but still doesn't have much to do with "revenge".

[bangrak]

1 hour ago, tgw said:

War had no support among Germans in the early 30ies. There was no hunger for colonies, most Germans were very poor.

Hitler always publicly positioned himself as a peacekeeper, all through his attack on Poland. The german public appeared numbed by propaganda when it took place.

Sorry 'tgw', but, IMHO, you 'over-simplify' (trusting you are 'genuine', I don't suspect you of 'twisting' the facts). The Austro-Prussians did not lose WW1 'on the battlefield', in fact, on the military side, they were quite close to winning. What brought them towards the 1918 Compiegne Armistice (so humiliating for them it marked the memories so deep Hitler, as a retaliation, had the 1940 French surrender undersigned in the same carriage...), were the living conditions which had become unbearable in the germanic countries, with famine and related diseases spreading fast, unrest followed, a global popular uprise was feared by the Emperors' regimes. 

The overly drastic conditions imposed to the Austrio-Prussians in the 1918 Armistice were, though totally, untenable, creating more internal centrifugal unrest.

Seen in our period, with the relativating factor of time, it 'seems' exactly the same financial and industrial groups, which had, ...acting in perfect understanding, 'organised' WW1, had in 1918 already chosen to go for a next, very profitable, WW!

The 1929, and following years', World financial crisis, wherein many of the same 'players'(!) carried a large responsibility in, finished erasing the little value that was left in the (by then) German Mark.

And it is then that Hitler, and his NAZI theories, gained ground in the empoverished, poor and deprived levels of the population (and also in the middle-, and some upper- class, whether hurt in their pride, and/or seeing profits in the adventure). ...And, not to forget: Hitler's NAZI party became, susbstantial, financial support, and protection, from, from..., from the same 'big guys'.

War in the 1930s, had, IMHO, a lot less support among the British Empire citizens, and even less among the US citizens (leading to the, recently, undisputably confirmed, dirty tricks to force them into it, like the sinking of the Lusitania , ...and Pearl harbour).

The 'Germans' were, in general, deeply hurt in their pride, after having been made losers while not being defeated, and very fed up with injust imposed conditions making a decent life impossible. Whatever we may think about that, that is how, they, felt.

The German(ic) people, in general, were known as hard workers, brave fighters, not shy to make sacrifices for the common good of their nation, ...and prone to gather behind their flag to defend their pride, ...or impose their 'views', over many centuries of History.

Bring the 'ingredients' together, in a shrudely, well managed, ultra-nationalistic 'receipe', with a 'well-oiled', unforgiving, but bloody logical propaganda, and there you have a rather small nation, by the size and numbers, which made the World tremble.

Oh, and mind you, though not 'colonial', there was a great 'territorial hunger', too well played out by the propaganda, the all too famous 'Lebensraum' theory, about 'incorporating' in the country all territories with a German(ic) 'component', with as first proof the 'recuperation' of the Sudet territories, Britain, France and others turned a blind eye on, ...followed by Poland(*) with the Danzig question where ('the abuses against') the German(ic) population group served as the excuse for the invasion, and the start of WW2, 80 years ago.

(* May I add that Britain and France were the guarantors of the Polish independence and sovereignty. Both did, indeed, declare war on Germany at once after the invasion of Poland, but, but, did zilch, zero, nada, nothing else to force Germany back. That while France at the time had the largest modern airforce, had scores of armoured vehicles, the only force with heavy tanks, and the most modern navy. As for Britain, it was a military 'powerhouse', with large forces present on the Continent. ...They both recanted on their oaths. Could Hitler still be stopped? Why was he not when he crossed the Rhine to recuperate the territories 'secured' by British and French? 80 years ago, and still a lot of major pregnant questions unanswered, sometimes even not yet asked, IMHO, because the truth might be very disturbing, devastating, for 'the History written by the victors'', erm, 'inaccuracies...)

Edited September 8, 2019 by bangrak

[bangrak]

On 9/6/2019 at 7:21 PM, blny said:

Tell that to my grandmother (she is over 90) who saw with her own eyes how the Germans killed her father and my great grandfather and robbed our home. My next grandmother (RIP) brother was also killed by the Germans, and my grandfather (RIP) was a partisan.

In Poland, during the war, the Germans killed on an incredible scale, but they also stole everything that had any value.
There was a previously unknown film from Warsaw 1939 when the Germans robbed the State Zoological Museum 03:18:

Hey germans, maybe you recognize your dad or grandfather ?? 
German thieves took over half a million works of art from Poland, ask your father or grandfather where did these paintings and other antiques come from in your homes, thieves ...
 
Sea of debris, this is what Warsaw looked like after the Germans left.

Before WWII, Poland had 389 thousand square kilometers, after 312 thousand square kilometers. 48% of the territory before WWII was taken over by soviet union, now old polish city like Wilno is the capital of Lithuania, Grodno, Brest, Lida etc. is in Belarus, Lwow (the third largest city in Poland before WW II), Stanislawow, Ternopil, Stryj, Sambor etc. is part of Ukraine. USA, CCCP and UK give us part of east Germany. For example: Wrocław (Breslau), Szczecin (Sttetin) or Kołobrzeg (Kolberg) were destroyed from 80 to 95%. Poland had to rebuild them. 

After 1945, Poland was not a free country, we were under a second occupation, this time communist from Russia. We could not do anything about reparations from the Germans, this was the will of Russia.
When we regained freedom after 1989, we wanted to join NATO and the EU, if we talked about it then, the Germans would block us.
So, now its time for justice...

When Poland wanted to join the EU after 1989 and the Germans blocked it, how come Poland is a member of the EU? Actually, IMHO, when so, Germany should have gone on blocking you, knowing now how much you cost to the EU, and what selfish, nationalistic, populist rulers you choose, together making of Poland a liability rather than an asset... Sorry to say.