Jomtien Condo Owners Sue For Sea View

[beginner]

Cheer up Brits. All is not lost.

Lets have some of that Brit spirit. Look how HerMadge has adjusted to the credit crunch and the new socialist policies of GWB.

On your bikes. The sun will still shine tomorrow in Pattaya.

Will one take fries with that?

McQueen.bmp

Edited October 21, 2008 by beginner

[Guderian]

Go to the website

Thanks for that posting, I hadn't heard of that board, but it's a great idea. If only some of the residents in the other big condo buildings in town would join up and post their own experiences, disputes, grizzles, and even what they are happy with, it could become a tremendous source of information for prospective purchasers, and even for tenants.

Maybe some of the JCC residents would care to start a JCC section on that board? How about VT5, VT6, Star Beach, Center Condo, Jomtien Beach Condo, Markland, the two Chateau Dales, Royal Hill, Pattaya Hill Resort, Keang Talay, Pattaya Sombat, Tep Thip Mansion, Jomtien Plaza, the View Talay Residences, Yensabai, Marine Yensabai, all the Naklua and Wong Amat condos, and so on and so forth? It gives residents a forum to air their views and grievances, and would help people thinking of buying or renting in a building to see how well-run it is.

I really hope that board takes off. If not, maybe there could be a condo sub-section here on the Pattaya section at ThaiVisa? The existing real estate section on ThaiVisa is good, but is not really focussed enough IMHO.

Edited October 21, 2008 by Buckwheat
URL removed. Please see forum rules

[prospero]

" It may be possible to stop a high-rise building on the adjacent property. A project must go through the Environmental Review process. Recall Ocean 1 had a 2 year ER battle."

"I am not opposing VT5A or VT5B on environmental grounds."

ThaiBob - You did contradict yourself. However, I think that buyers would probably have a good case against further highrises based on VT misrepresentation. The environmental factor seems blown to shards.

Your advice regarding the importance of any VT bldg. organizing their committee, etc. with all possible speed is wisdom. I wouldn't hold my breath, tho! People just don't seem to recognize the need for such a thing until they're standing knee deep in it.

I dont think many people would want to buy into a vt 5A/5B , it could be a commercial disaster for vt to progress it.

Especially after the damage vt7 has done to their reputation, and the prospect of avalon hotel growing to 27 floors..

Also Pattaya City Hall have to stand up and be counted as that small area wont stand another 2000 condo,s.

I'm not convinced the environmental argument is gone, its a big issue, I want to see the reaction of the stopvt lawyer.

Any more details emerged about what happened in the SAC?.

I agree it's a big issue, and, hopefully, the final judgment of the SAC will as well. As I said very early in this debate, the damage done to Dong Tarn Beach by a reading of the issue 9 map that agrees with View Talay Company will ruin what is still a treasure. Imagine a row of 30 story monstrosities stretching from View Talay 7 all the way down the beach. View Talay 5A, The Avalon Tower Hotel, The Rabbit High Rise Panorama, Pattaya Park Seaview Condominiums in the Sky -- not to mention a certain eight story building whose name cannot be mentioned on this website.

No wonder Thai Bob has suddenly become an environmentalist! . He's ready to launch a crusade to stop View Talay 5A before it ruins his lovely beach! Perhaps we'll see a new poster on this thread with the handle "StopVT5A"!

The name of the game is delay, delay, delay.

It may be possible to stop a high-rise building on the adjacent property. A project must go through the Environmental Review process. Recall Ocean 1 had a 2 year ER battle. The old JCC juristic person (pre-stopVT7) also signed off on the VT7 ER which permitted VT7 to be built. If VT remains as your (VT5's) juristic person they have conflict of interest if they build on the adjacent property.

Man the barracades!

[Wiresok]

More like man the sea defences Prospero,with all those buildings that will appear out in the sea.

Now that this is going back to Rayong , they will certainly have to take account of the environmental issues., as well as the expert witness testimony.

As far as I know these environmental issues havn't been on the agenda up to now in Rayong.

Now Rayong judges have to decide what legacy they leave to the people of Thailand.

Rayong are now the judges, but future Thai generations will judge them.

As environmental issues become more and more topical, there will be no hiding place.

As I said previously, take a walk past the Altantic hotel/vt3 area and you will understand what could happen to the entire beach area if this ruling goes through.

Just as a side issue,but important, if the courts finally side with the expert witness testimony, this means that the building restrictions as listed in issue 9 will apply from the edge of the zone 200m landward.

Therefore if I wished to erect a property out in the sea, 14m high (per the regulation) ,

1.Who owns the land out there in the sea, who would I buy the land off where I wanted to build my property.

2.Where would the datum be that I would have to measure the 14m height from, seabed level, sea level, road level?, I hope the court clears all this up.

I see it didnt take long to make a judgement on old Taksin there did it.

Pity Rayong havnt shown the same zeal for a conclusion.

[prospero]

More like man the sea defences Prospero,with all those buildings that will appear out in the sea.

Now that this is going back to Rayong , they will certainly have to take account of the environmental issues., as well as the expert witness testimony.

As far as I know these environmental issues havn't been on the agenda up to now in Rayong.

Now Rayong judges have to decide what legacy they leave to the people of Thailand.

Rayong are now the judges, but future Thai generations will judge them.

As environmental issues become more and more topical, there will be no hiding place.

As I said previously, take a walk past the Altantic hotel/vt3 area and you will understand what could happen to the entire beach area if this ruling goes through.

Just as a side issue,but important, if the courts finally side with the expert witness testimony, this means that the building restrictions as listed in issue 9 will apply from the edge of the zone 200m landward.

Therefore if I wished to erect a property out in the sea, 14m high (per the regulation) ,

1.Who owns the land out there in the sea, who would I buy the land off where I wanted to build my property.

2.Where would the datum be that I would have to measure the 14m height from, seabed level, sea level, road level?, I hope the court clears all this up.

I see it didnt take long to make a judgement on old Taksin there did it.

Pity Rayong havnt shown the same zeal for a conclusion.

Yes, Wiresok, the final vision is of a row of Views Talay (VT 57 through 75) set out in the sea, beyond the "hundred meter" limit, blocking the views of everyone on all the beaches in Pattaya/Jomtien. Owners will commute to shore by motorized dhingeys that run every half-hour.

As for the Rayong court -- we can only hope. The testimony of the "expert" witness, a third-class bureaucrat who testified on behalf of City Hall and VT7 (no doubt he was well compensated for his "expert" opinion), was never refuted by the Jomtien Condotel lawyer. The Asia Law Works attorneys, Amnat and Markus, actually agreed with the "expert" witness testimony! Why???? I leave it to you to figure it out!

Now, Stop VT7 is represented by the finest environmental lawyer in Thailand. I'm sure he will provide his own expert witness testimony in the next stage of the case.

View Talay Company will stop at nothing in its pursuit of profit. They have no regard for the environment, quality constrution, architectural aesthetics, Thai laws, the integrity of the Thai legal system, or the truth.

What will the court do? It's impossible to say.

Edited October 22, 2008 by prospero

[ThaiBob]

.... and the prospect of avalon hotel growing to 27 floors..

You can put your fears to rest. The Avalon is less than 100 meters from the MSL (and less than 200 meters from the construction control line.)

[prospero]

.... and the prospect of avalon hotel growing to 27 floors..

You can put your fears to rest. The Avalon is less than 100 meters from the MSL (and less than 200 meters from the construction control line.)

Not all of it. There's a nice chunk that is behind the VT7 line. I'm sure a clever architect could figure out a nice, profitable building for that site.

You will certainly agree with me that it makes sense for the View Talay Company to construct VT 5A as close to the sea as possible. If they don't, no units there will have any sea views whatsoever, rather like what's happening in VT 6. The "seaview" units on the north side of VT7 will have already been sold, so there is no reason for the developer to protect those views.

I really admire your warning the co-owners of VT5 C about this possiblity.

[Guderian]

More like man the sea defences Prospero,with all those buildings that will appear out in the sea.

Now that this is going back to Rayong , they will certainly have to take account of the environmental issues., as well as the expert witness testimony.

As far as I know these environmental issues havn't been on the agenda up to now in Rayong.

Now Rayong judges have to decide what legacy they leave to the people of Thailand.

Rayong are now the judges, but future Thai generations will judge them.

As environmental issues become more and more topical, there will be no hiding place.

Maybe the Rayong judges don't really see the problem in the same way we do? After all, their jurisdiction covers the largest industrial estate, and most polluted large area of land and seashore, in the whole country. If VT were building an oil refinery or petrochemical plant in front of JCC, maybe they would see the urgency. But one condo next door to another. and possibly a bit close to the beach - would that really seem so important to a Thai living near Map Ta Phut?

Just speculating. It might be similar to how some of us farangs get very upset/angry about noise, whereas the average Thai doesn't really have a clue what we are moaning about. Perhaps that's why they are not treating it with much urgency. Rather than seeing it as a groundbreaking case for the whole Eastern Seaboard, they are instead scratching their heads wondering what those crazy farangs are getting so worked up about this time?

[ripley]

QUERY: Anyone interested in starting a new thread on Condo life in general – yours in particular? We could swap useful info on services, committees, condo law vs regulations, management, communal property renovation ideas, etc. We could gritch. We could congratulate ourselves for being bright enough to have moved to a tropical paradise. Maybe call it “Mondo Condo”. Whaddya think? Interested?

[ThaiBob]

.... and the prospect of avalon hotel growing to 27 floors..

You can put your fears to rest. The Avalon is less than 100 meters from the MSL (and less than 200 meters from the construction control line.)

Not all of it. There's a nice chunk that is behind the VT7 line. I'm sure a clever architect could figure out a nice, profitable building for that site.

You will certainly agree with me that it makes sense for the View Talay Company to construct VT 5A as close to the sea as possible. If they don't, no units there will have any sea views whatsoever, rather like what's happening in VT 6. The "seaview" units on the north side of VT7 will have already been sold, so there is no reason for the developer to protect those views.

I really admire your warning the co-owners of VT5 C about this possiblity.

A "clever architect". Isn't that an oxymoron here in Pattaya?

"You will certainly agree with me that it makes sense for the View Talay Company to construct VT 5A as close to the sea as possible." IF a VT5A is ever built then yes I agree totally.

"I really admire your warning the co-owners of VT5 C about this possiblity." I didn't realize I had a responsibility to warn VT5C co-owners. In reality, I know 4 farangs that live in VT5C on the JomTien side. A possible VT5A was one reason I elected not to buy there. I have discussed this with them in the past and they were aware of risks in losing views. Their response was "Que sera sera".

[Wiresok]

More like man the sea defences Prospero,with all those buildings that will appear out in the sea.

Now that this is going back to Rayong , they will certainly have to take account of the environmental issues., as well as the expert witness testimony.

As far as I know these environmental issues havn't been on the agenda up to now in Rayong.

Now Rayong judges have to decide what legacy they leave to the people of Thailand.

Rayong are now the judges, but future Thai generations will judge them.

As environmental issues become more and more topical, there will be no hiding place.

As I said previously, take a walk past the Altantic hotel/vt3 area and you will understand what could happen to the entire beach area if this ruling goes through.

Just as a side issue,but important, if the courts finally side with the expert witness testimony, this means that the building restrictions as listed in issue 9 will apply from the edge of the zone 200m landward.

Therefore if I wished to erect a property out in the sea, 14m high (per the regulation) ,

1.Who owns the land out there in the sea, who would I buy the land off where I wanted to build my property.

2.Where would the datum be that I would have to measure the 14m height from, seabed level, sea level, road level?, I hope the court clears all this up.

I see it didnt take long to make a judgement on old Taksin there did it.

Pity Rayong havnt shown the same zeal for a conclusion.

Yes, Wiresok, the final vision is of a row of Views Talay (VT 57 through 75) set out in the sea, beyond the "hundred meter" limit, blocking the views of everyone on all the beaches in Pattaya/Jomtien. Owners will commute to shore by motorized dhingeys that run every half-hour.

As for the Rayong court -- we can only hope. The testimony of the "expert" witness, a third-class bureaucrat who testified on behalf of City Hall and VT7 (no doubt he was well compensated for his "expert" opinion), was never refuted by the Jomtien Condotel lawyer. The Asia Law Works attorneys, Amnat and Markus, actually agreed with the "expert" witness testimony! Why???? I leave it to you to figure it out!

Now, Stop VT7 is represented by the finest environmental lawyer in Thailand. I'm sure he will provide his own expert witness testimony in the next stage of the case.

View Talay Company will stop at nothing in its pursuit of profit. They have no regard for the environment, quality constrution, architectural aesthetics, Thai laws, the integrity of the Thai legal system, or the truth.

What will the court do? It's impossible to say.

Yes I,m sure there will be some innovative developer out there willing to take it on.

However , before you build anything out there you have to aquire the land out there.

This is a very important consideration , just who does own the land out there on the seabed that the expert witness says you can build up to 14m on.

Does the owner know that it can be built upon, its value could soar?

I,d be very interested to know who is the owner.

Personally I cannot believe the free reign this expert witness has had,without any serious attempt, it would seem, to undermine him or discredit him.

We have given him a harder time 0n here than he,s had in court.

The stopvt legal representation to date would have been struck off in many countries , maybe the new guy will now get somebody in to take the expert witness head-on and make him explain the ridiculous by-products of his testimony.

Everybody bar the judges realises its nonsense.

Sure the Thai legal system will get international scrutiny here ( a good argument for Taksin) and you have to ask , with a performance like this why was this court set up in the first place?

[Wiresok]

.... and the prospect of avalon hotel growing to 27 floors..

You can put your fears to rest. The Avalon is less than 100 meters from the MSL (and less than 200 meters from the construction control line.)

Not all of it. There's a nice chunk that is behind the VT7 line. I'm sure a clever architect could figure out a nice, profitable building for that site.

You will certainly agree with me that it makes sense for the View Talay Company to construct VT 5A as close to the sea as possible. If they don't, no units there will have any sea views whatsoever, rather like what's happening in VT 6. The "seaview" units on the north side of VT7 will have already been sold, so there is no reason for the developer to protect those views.

I really admire your warning the co-owners of VT5 C about this possiblity.

A "clever architect". Isn't that an oxymoron here in Pattaya?

"You will certainly agree with me that it makes sense for the View Talay Company to construct VT 5A as close to the sea as possible." IF a VT5A is ever built then yes I agree totally.

"I really admire your warning the co-owners of VT5 C about this possiblity." I didn't realize I had a responsibility to warn VT5C co-owners. In reality, I know 4 farangs that live in VT5C on the JomTien side. A possible VT5A was one reason I elected not to buy there. I have discussed this with them in the past and they were aware of risks in losing views. Their response was "Que sera sera".

The people who have the responsibility to be straight about all this are view talay and Pattaya City Hall.

These are the guys who know what is going on.

You try and get a straight answer from the view talay office.

They have to be evasive to sell the units, but I think this case has certainly exposed view talay and many potential sales have gone.

People will take their business very critically elsewhere.

As for your mates Thaibob, ask them again if and when 5A gets finished !

I have also heard on the grapevine that vt7 is to be front end modified to take advantage of the additional 5 meters coming available.

The additional units involved have already been allocated !

[CRUNCHER]

This has gone quiet for a long time. Has the Rayong Court issued it's final verdict yet? If so what was it?

Edited December 23, 2008 by CRUNCHER

[ripley]

Rayong hasn't yet delivered the expected coup de gras & ruled, but pretty obviously is not in favour of JCC or in demolition of VT7. Maybe someone out there knows what prevents Rayong from actually making the final ruling??

Just browsed stopvt7 blog & read a comment stating that the civil engineer whose "expert witness" opinion turned the tide (so to speak) for vt7 was shot & killed outside of his home in Sept. of 2008.

[johng]

Ahh yes reported here crikey !!! something dodgey there.

www.pattayadailynews.com/shownews.php?IDNEWS=0000007307

[ThaiBob]

Ahh yes reported here crikey !!! something dodgey there.

www.pattayadailynews.com/shownews.php?IDNEWS=0000007307

For the record, this is not the "expert witness" and is unrelated to this thread.

[ThaiBob]

For those interested, here are few pics taken the last week of January showing the progress to date. A few pics were taken from VT7 on the 21st floor. VT is now working on the roof (27th floor), building roof structures for the stair wells and lifts. A visit to the VT office confirmed that VT does own the plot of land between VT5 and VT7 (which should surprise no one). They plan building more highrises on this land with the possibility of a hotel in the front. With real estate market in its current state I would not expect plans or building in the immediate future. The VT7 completion date is at the end of 2009 or the beginning of 2010.

[twix38]

From a previous post. "Your advice regarding the importance of any VT bldg. organizing their committee, etc. with all possible speed is wisdom. I wouldn't hold my breath, tho! People just don't seem to recognize the need for such a thing until they're standing knee deep in it."

Re VT. As a residence of VT2 I would indeed recommend that co-owners organise to run their own building as soon as legally allowed and recommended in accordence with Thai law, by bringing in a new management company and juristic person. Of course be carefull not to jump out of the fire and into the frying pan.

The first stage is to find out if a co-owner's committee would be tolerated and allowed by VT, to have an agreed input and possibly also an oversight role in the finances and contracts. It's your money after all, but this was not permitted in VT2.

Accounts were not independently checked and were insufficient as well as ending up with a low sinking fund which had been used to cover shortfalls in running costs that the annual maintenance didn't cover. This was never addressed until we took over ourselves. We received less funds in the transfer than we expected whereby one co-owner bankrolled our operations in the first few months until we got ourselves straight and swallowed the medicine.

At the least, there was mismanagement and with the maintenance issues that came to light subsequently poor service. We are still putting right a few of the items that required attention having done the urgent couple.

Don't allow VT to control things for any longer than necessary and learn by example.

Edited February 9, 2009 by twix38

[OldenAtwoody]

Seems to me I read (separately) that Bangkok is a mere 3 feet above sea level, and that the oceans may likely rise as much as 15 - 20 feet in the next 50 years.

Whatever your politics, I strongly recommend you all get a copy of Vice-President Gore's film (DVD), "An Inconvienent Truth"...

...BEFORE buying retirement real estate.....

and as they step closer and closer what will the effects of global warming be on the tide line?

to nullify all pre existing deals? to make all beach front property uninhabitable? who will sue who then?

just wondering who is minding the store... or is that looking too far ahead?

[ThaiBob]

From a previous post. "Your advice regarding the importance of any VT bldg. organizing their committee, etc. with all possible speed is wisdom. I wouldn't hold my breath, tho! People just don't seem to recognize the need for such a thing until they're standing knee deep in it."

Re VT. As a residence of VT2 I would indeed recommend that co-owners organise to run their own building as soon as legally allowed and recommended in accordence with Thai law, by bringing in a new management company and juristic person. Of course be carefull not to jump out of the fire and into the frying pan.

The first stage is to find out if a co-owner's committee would be tolerated and allowed by VT, to have an agreed input and possibly also an oversight role in the finances and contracts. It's your money after all, but this was not permitted in VT2.

Accounts were not independently checked and were insufficient as well as ending up with a low sinking fund which had been used to cover shortfalls in running costs that the annual maintenance didn't cover. This was never addressed until we took over ourselves. We received less funds in the transfer than we expected whereby one co-owner bankrolled our operations in the first few months until we got ourselves straight and swallowed the medicine.

At the least, there was mismanagement and with the maintenance issues that came to light subsequently poor service. We are still putting right a few of the items that required attention having done the urgent couple.

Don't allow VT to control things for any longer than necessary and learn by example.

Good advice and congratulations on getting VT2 back on the right track. Having visited VT2 recently the improvements are visibly noticeable. The VT5C owners were unable to get control at their last General Meeting however. Future VT7 owners take notice.

[johng]

Future VT7 owners take notice

Yes and they also might take notice of this !!!!

[Pdaz]

That makes for some great reading.

''A small group of irresponsible Foreigners''

''Fortunately these aliens lost their court case''

''The widespread bad opinion about 'farangs' in Thailand are mainly based on the innapropriate behavior of those foreigners - like the farang plaintiffs in this above mentions court case''

Great stuff... NOT !

Real Estate Thailand Magazine... Even of it is free I'd never pick up another copy if they print shi*e like that ....

They seem to forget that most of their customers are 'farangs'

I'm hoping the World wide recession puts and end to their business and they can sculk off to the next Real Estate 'boom' in another country... Developers and Agents = *ankers...

[IamAgel]

No one in their right mind actually beleives the BS written by Real Estate agents in Pattaya

Blatent lies as contained in this advert however if they encourage buyers who subsequently lose their investments when the court case is finally decided could well lead to the advertisers/magazine being sued

What about the present owners in VT7

Are they going to risk subtantial amounts of dosh doing up their condos when their is still a real risk of demolition

How are they going to sell their units with an ongoing court case against the building? lie like the real estate BS?

Could their be a whole string of court cases against the owners who then sell on without declaring the court case and a possible demolition scenario

I think there will be a decision soon (This Year) however there is still the prospect of many years of appeal whoever wins

Now who is daft enough to buy into this scenario apart from the ones who were duped or couldn't care less about their money in the first place

[Barack]

Future VT7 owners take notice

Yes and they also might take notice of this !!!!

This ad is very old, going back to the first part of 2008. It was roundly criticized at that time and rightly so. Since that time VT7 opponents appealed to the Supreme Court and their appeal was rejected. The Rayong Court was going to close the case on January 2 until the opponents filed a last minute brief with the Court which will only prolong their agony. Let's face it, the opponent’s case is on life-support and anybody who believes VT7 is coming does not know that TIT.

[Pattaya46]

Are they going to risk substantial amounts of dosh doing up their condos

when there is still a real risk of demolition

:D

Thank's to make me laugh

A real risk of demolition... Please be serious. VT7 is now there... and will stay there.

[ripley]

Responding to the request for "tag" ideas, I think twix38's recent account of builder vs co-owners and the importance of an independent co-owner involvement in governance, expenditures, etc. would start an informative thread. I remember long ago when I purchased I had zero awareness about this issue. By the time awareness dawned we had very nearly lost our rights to privacy and security. (Some bright spark decided to open our private common area to the public - at our expense!) I suggest starting a thread with twix38's letter and leaving it in place. I believe nowadays there is a little more awareness and that people will respond in time. We need to inform each other about these matters - certainly you won't get such info from real estate brokers or builders.

[Guderian]

Has anybody had any feedback on the Court proceedings in Rayong on February 23rd? I was hoping that Stopvt7 would have updated his blog by now, but he hasn't.

[NEHandMJ]

Has anybody had any feedback on the Court proceedings in Rayong on February 23rd? I was hoping that Stopvt7 would have updated his blog by now, but he hasn't.

See the blog >>>> stopvt7 blogspot com

[Guderian]

Has anybody had any feedback on the Court proceedings in Rayong on February 23rd? I was hoping that Stopvt7 would have updated his blog by now, but he hasn't.

See the blog >>>> stopvt7 blogspot com

Another update has just been added if anyone's interested.

[Guderian]

Duplicate post.

Edited March 26, 2009 by Guderian