United Kingdom might not exist in a decade, half of UK citizens think - poll

[NanLaew]

3 hours ago, tebee said:

They were in favour of brexit because they could see it would be the route to an independent Scotland.

 

This is something the DUP were too stupid to realize about NI

The DUP crave the Union though. That's what the 'U' in the middle of their name stands for.

 

As for the Scots thinking EU membership would fast track their fight for independence, that was all so much Sturgeonballs before Brussels handily stepped in and reminded her that Scotland's continued EU membership can't legally be grandfathered simply on being a former member of the UK.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

The DUP crave the Union though. That's what the 'U' in the middle of their name stands for.

 

As for the Scots thinking EU membership would fast track their fight for independence, that was all so much Sturgeonballs before Brussels handily stepped in and reminded her that Scotland's continued EU membership can't legally be grandfathered simply on being a former member of the UK.

I think that's tebee's point - Brexit was only going to destabilise the UK; the SNP saw that and squeezed maximum capital out of it, but the corrupt DUP either failed to recognise the threat or (more likely?) their eyes were bedazzled by the billion pound bung that they looked forward to pocketing, having already enriched themselves with Cash for Ash money. 

 

Scotland conforms to all EU regulations and norms; the transition as an independent country to joining would be relatively straightforward compared to one that has never operated under the EU umbrella. If the will of the Scottish people is to rejoin, I don't think it will be an automatic re-entry, but it is not going to take the protracted years of negotiations that some Project Fear mongers like to claim. 

[Mavideol]

On 11/8/2019 at 8:38 PM, RuamRudy said:

.......... what value the UK brings Scotland.

what about a QUEEN and lots of princes, princess and all the  BS attached to it  555

[RuamRudy]

5 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

what about a QUEEN and lots of princes, princess and all the  BS attached to it  555

This is a somewhat delicate matter, even among SNP supporters. There remains a strong allegiance to the crown across the country.

 

I think if we were to devise a method of national rule today, a dynastic monarchy would never be realistically considered, but we have it and I cannot see many advantages of dropping it and adopting a presidential approach. However the lazy, fat and ridiculously overblown monarchy we Brits put up with definitely needs to be trimmed - and drastically. I like the Dutch model where there are relatively few hangers on, and even the senior royals contribute tangibly to the country. Unfortunately there are very few of our many, many royals who would know a day's work if it fell on them. 

[evadgib]

23 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I think that's tebee's point - Brexit was only going to destabilise the UK; the SNP saw that and squeezed maximum capital out of it, but the corrupt DUP either failed to recognise the threat or (more likely?) their eyes were bedazzled by the billion pound bung that they looked forward to pocketing, having already enriched themselves with Cash for Ash money. 

 

Scotland conforms to all EU regulations and norms; the transition as an independent country to joining would be relatively straightforward compared to one that has never operated under the EU umbrella. If the will of the Scottish people is to rejoin, I don't think it will be an automatic re-entry, but it is not going to take the protracted years of negotiations that some Project Fear mongers like to claim. 

You'll need to address the currency issue first & i can't see that happening overnight.

[Mavideol]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

This is a somewhat delicate matter, even among SNP supporters. There remains a strong allegiance to the crown across the country.

 

I think if we were to devise a method of national rule today, a dynastic monarchy would never be realistically considered, but we have it and I cannot see many advantages of dropping it and adopting a presidential approach. However the lazy, fat and ridiculously overblown monarchy we Brits put up with definitely needs to be trimmed - and drastically. I like the Dutch model where there are relatively few hangers on, and even the senior royals contribute tangibly to the country. Unfortunately there are very few of our many, many royals who would know a day's work if it fell on them. 

couldn't agree more with your last sentence and that's the Queen's fault not their fault..... Dutch,  Sweden, Denmark and maybe Norway good example of low key aristocracy

[evadgib]

21 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

what about a QUEEN and lots of princes, princess and all the  BS attached to it  555

Other than pruning I cannot see why current arrangements shouldn't continue as they have done for centuries.

[tebee]

5 hours ago, NanLaew said:

The DUP crave the Union though. That's what the 'U' in the middle of their name stands for.

 

 

 

And the Conservative and Unionist party is currently trying to implement policies that will almost inevitably lead to the breakup of that very same union ! 

 

You couldn't make this stuff up! We live in weird times. 

[WillyPlatt]

8 hours ago, tebee said:

They were in favour of brexit because they could see it would be the route to an independent Scotland.

 

This is something the DUP were too stupid to realize about NI

Rebel without a cause.

My dear Fenian friend, the free state will be next in line if Brexit is a success.

The ROI has milked the EU for every dime possible, to upgrade their infrastructure.

It has dragged them out of the gutter and no wonder their grateful.

Following the last property boom and bust, i believe Dublin is heating up nicely again.

Looks like your light on his loafers leader got on famously with Boris though.

 

[tebee]

1 hour ago, WillyPlatt said:

....if Brexit is a success.

 

 

Given the likelihood of that being the case, I think the EU is safe.

[WillyPlatt]

Bookmark that thought.

I voted remain, but at the end of this divorce i would never bet against a country who survived and won two world wars, no thanks to your neutral German loving one.

I believe global biotech investment into the UK is at multi year highs.

At stages in history like this, it always pays to keep an eye on what's going on in the background.

The investors of global capital are rarely wrong.

[rickudon]

Ah, the death throes of an empire.  Brexit has just speeded it up. Scotland likes the EU, and Brexit makes independence more likely. Northern Ireland demographics mean that Catholics will become the majority of voters in the next decade - so they will go. Not sure if Wales will go - but a bad Brexit could cause this. All this has been obvious for 3 years.

 

Afterwards, wonder what will become of all those small dependencies. Traded for trade deals?

[sanemax]

23 minutes ago, rickudon said:

Ah, the death throes of an empire.  Brexit has just speeded it up. Scotland likes the EU, and Brexit makes independence more likely. Northern Ireland demographics mean that Catholics will become the majority of voters in the next decade - so they will go. Not sure if Wales will go - but a bad Brexit could cause this. All this has been obvious for 3 years.

 

Afterwards, wonder what will become of all those small dependencies. Traded for trade deals?

Where will the Irish and Scots and Welsh be "going" ?

Will they be going to Australia or somewhere ?

[oldhippy]

5 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Where will the Irish and Scots and Welsh be "going" ?

Will they be going to Australia or somewhere ?

the EU

[rickudon]

11 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Where will the Irish and Scots and Welsh be "going" ?

Will they be going to Australia or somewhere ?

Hopefully ....

[Salerno]

14 minutes ago, rickudon said:

Hopefully ....

Those <deleted> are already here!

[Monomial]

On 11/9/2019 at 4:12 PM, beautifulthailand99 said:

I am a citizen of the world and therefore a citizen of nowhere.

 

I viscerally dislike nationalism, which I believe ultimately leads to war, as former French President Francois Mitterrand rightly observed in his final speech to the European Parliament. Whether in the guise of “America first” or Brexit, nationalism goes beyond asserting a right to self-determination based on a shared geography or ethnicity. It involves a dangerous collective sense of superiority over other tribes, races, creeds or religions.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/how-britain-made-me-a-citizen-of-nowhere/

 

When I read this, I had to pause and read it again because it is just so arrogant. (Not that I would ever say the French are arrogant.) But this is like saying "I viscerally dislike emotion, because it can lead to hate."  Sure, it may be a true statement, but human emotion is a fact just like social tribalism is a fact. It has been a survival advantage that has been bred into us for thousands of years. You can't simply snuff it out overnight because you think it is politically inconvenient.

 

I sincerely hope nobody in the EU actually believes this is a practical way to organize a human society given today's less than perfect humans. If this is what those leading the EU actually believe, then their experiment is doomed to failure. You need to accept nationalism as a part of who people are, and allow that to flourish in a healthy way.

 

I don't believe at all that nationalism leads to a belief in superiority over anyone else. This is a straw man argument. But it does necessarily lead to embracing the differences between people and all the feelings of belonging and community that tribal social organization engenders. You can't artificially push people together just because you want it to be so.

 

[tebee]

1 hour ago, sanemax said:

Where will the Irish and Scots and Welsh be "going" ?

Will they be going to Australia or somewhere ?

escaping from the tyrannical clutches of those unelected bureaucrats in Whitehall...

[daveAustin]

Blame the childish, eu-flag-waving left and that viperous snp female. Personally couldn't give a tinker's toss - NI way overdue for returning to the fold (though expect a bombing campaign in the republic from the ardent protestants), while about time the jocks stood on their own two feet. All that go-your-own-way stuff bodes well for the English coffers - and no that bit of northern oil doesn't cover the subsidies.

[sandyf]

7 hours ago, tebee said:

escaping from the tyrannical clutches of those unelected bureaucrats in Whitehall...

Looks like you missed a page in the brexit handbook, unelected bureaucrats only live in Europe.

[RuamRudy]

I like this slow, measured but increasing number of comments in the press suggesting that the Union is not a sacred cow. A lot of people still have this weird belief that nothing is more important than the preservation of the UK. This slow drip feeding of counter-suggestions will hopefully ease their minds somewhat, when the inevitable happens. 

 

World View: Welsh are finding it harder to make the case for the Union

"...growing interest among Welsh Labour voters in an independent Wales. Some 40 per cent of them are now “indy-curious” according to a YouGov poll this week, a trend partly driven by Brexit. The poll shows a hugely increased 28 per cent of Welsh voters now support independence..."

[billd766]

13 hours ago, oldhippy said:

the EU

Perhaps they will but it won't be instant.

 

https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries_en

 

Joining the EU
Becoming a member of the EU is a complex procedure which does not happen overnight. Once an applicant country meets the conditions for membership, it must implement EU rules and regulations in all areas.

Any country that satisfies the conditions for membership can apply. These conditions are known as the ‘Copenhagen criteria’ and include a free-market economy, a stable democracy and the rule of law, and the acceptance of all EU legislation, including of the euro.

A country wishing to join the EU submits a membership application to the Council, which asks the Commission to assess the applicant’s ability to meet the Copenhagen criteria. If the Commission’s opinion is positive, the Council must then agree upon a negotiating mandate. Negotiations are then formally opened on a subject-by-subject basis.

Due to the huge volume of EU rules and regulations each candidate country must adopt as national law, the negotiations take time to complete. The candidates are supported financially, administratively and technically during this pre-accession period.

 

Joining the EU

Becoming a member of the EU is a complex procedure which does not happen overnight. Once an applicant country meets the conditions for membership, it must implement EU rules and regulations in all areas.

Any country that satisfies the conditions for membership can apply. These conditions are known as the ‘Copenhagen criteria’ and include a free-market economy, a stable democracy and the rule of law, and the acceptance of all EU legislation, including of the euro.

A country wishing to join the EU submits a membership application to the Council, which asks the Commission to assess the applicant’s ability to meet the Copenhagen criteria. If the Commission’s opinion is positive, the Council must then agree upon a negotiating mandate. Negotiations are then formally opened on a subject-by-subject basis.

Due to the huge volume of EU rules and regulations each candidate country must adopt as national law, the negotiations take time to complete. The candidates are supported financially, administratively and technically during this pre-accession period.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_criteria

 

European Union membership criteria
During the negotiations with each candidate country, progress towards meeting the Copenhagen criteria is regularly monitored. On the basis of this, decisions are made as to whether and when a particular country should join, or what actions need to be taken before joining is possible.

The European Union Membership criteria are defined by the three documents:

The 1992 Treaty of Maastricht (Article 49)
The declaration of the June 1993 European Council in Copenhagen, i.e., Copenhagen criteria—describing the general policy in more details
political
economic
legislative
Framework for negotiations with a particular candidate state
specific and detailed conditions
statement stressing that the new member cannot take its place in the Union until it is considered that the EU itself has enough "absorption capacity" for this to happen.
When agreed in 1993, there was no mechanism for ensuring that any country which was already an EU member state was in compliance with these criteria. However, arrangements have now been put in place to police compliance with these criteria, following the "sanctions" imposed against the Austrian government of Wolfgang Schüssel in early 2000 by the other 14 Member States' governments. These arrangements came into effect on 1 February 2003 under the provisions of the Treaty of Nice.

[GroveHillWanderer]

On 11/9/2019 at 4:00 PM, Baerboxer said:

The Irish nationalists are different. They want to leave the UK and join Eire. Only they don't seem to realize the people of Eire might not be keen on that idea let alone all the Unionists in Northern Ireland.

A clear majority of the people of Eire support the reunification of Ireland. The latest opinion poll puts support at 65%.

 

I don't know about Unionists as a separate group but a majority of NI voters (which is what counts) are now in favour of a united Ireland according to recent polls.

[evadgib]

Thornbury has just been skewered by Piers Morgan in yet another car crash interview on GMB ????

 

(Mincemeat! ????)

[Eric Loh]

On 11/9/2019 at 1:21 PM, billd766 said:

A bit like most empires over the centuries, Roman, Moorish, Mongols, China, Spain, France, Germany, UK, the USA  and the EU at some time in the future.

China was bit of an odd ball in that they never colonized any countries like the rest in your list. Trade and commerce were their main reasons to leave their shores. 

[tebee]

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

Perhaps they will but it won't be instant.

 

https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries_en

 

 

But there is nothing to stop the EU giving them EFTA like associate membership with full customs union  membership instantly

[rott]

On 11/8/2019 at 7:57 PM, RuamRudy said:

What is it that so many find sacrosanct about the UK? It doesn't work well for anybody within it, whether they be English, Welsh, Scottish or Northern Irish. I believe that its dissolution would better serve each of the countries within it; keeping it alive because of some romantic notion of a grand period that, if it ever existed, nobody alive can remember, seems madness. 

Is this because you are a fenian?

[RuamRudy]

17 minutes ago, rott said:

Is this because you are a fenian?

Or maybe it is because I have not been hindered by a nasty, sectarian, backward mentality that causes me to live an unfulfilled and self-limiting life filled with bile and hate. 

 

[olfu]

Its funny how nobody connect UK to time frame when it used to be ruling half of the world.

Now UK should rename itself Soviet Union so when it disappear nobody will pay attention.

[elliss]

On 11/9/2019 at 11:43 AM, Number 6 said:

UK will absolutely exist. They will still be bickering over Brexit despite EU imploding in five years anyway.

 

 UK will be imploding , in under five years , if brexit happens.

         How many brit expats on Tvf return to their beloved UK homeland ?. 

     However that said , i still pay taxes to the UK Goverment ,  so sad ..