Thailand Is Down...

[jetjock]

And for those America-hating bashers, spare me the crap of pointing out to me the USA's many shortcoming, I'm well aware of them so if you like to see it this way, the USA are the "least bad country on earth".

I could not agree with your statement more and I love the way you phrased it as it is very true. I bitch and moan about things in Thailand the same as I do about the bad things in my country, but all bad things considered, I cannot think of two countries I where I would rather live and spend my time. Thailand is definitely going through a rough time and hopefully things will return to a more stable situation in the near future.

Edited April 12, 2007 by jetjock

[Ijustwannateach]

Thanks to Mid and Jetjock for getting the thread back on track. If the bargirl/nightlife discussion continues, this thread will be closed- it's off-topic and also an unwelcome topic.

"S"

[BAF]

Thanks to Mid and Jetjock for getting the thread back on track. If the bargirl/nightlife discussion continues, this thread will be closed- it's off-topic and also an unwelcome topic.

"S"

It's never been, at least for me, about just bargirls/nightlife. I was reasoning in much broader terms and my initial argument was, I believe, very in topic.

As the mods please, anyway.

[MartinBKK]

Today, I asked the front desk at the hotel where I usually stay for a fan because the room was so hot even with the tiny air-con at "full blast". I tried to take a nap today and just stayed awake sweating.

I was polite and just thought this would be easier than moving me to another room with another bad air conditioner as this hotel has mostly bad ones. I have had to do this before in the past. Anyway, she seemed to think that I was just complaining for fun and told me no fan.

I told her that there are plenty of hotels in Pattaya and that I would be moving to another one tomorrow.

She could care less, but I will end up with a much better hotel for a slightly higher price (they didn't tell me that they had raised the price since last time).

Mai Phen Rai can work BOTH ways!

Nice post Ulysses. This sums up thai attitudes 100%. I've lived here for 2 yrs and i have experienced this sort of thing time and time again.

I have nothing against Thai people but until they start to appreciate their customers rather than take them for granted this country will continue to stand still.

[qwertz]

Why so much gloom in this thread? I know why I always go back, how about you all out there? To me it's still a welcome break from life over here. I'm not hated or rejected by the Thais and if they demolished the bars, abolished the vice and made everything sterile, Thailand still has one commodity which will always be sought after by Europeans - sunshine and chill outs guaranteed. As for the expats, sorry but you made your beds - sleep tight.

[KhunMarco]

You seem to forget that Italy(you are from Italy right?) was very similar 50 years ago,

Yes I'm Italian, now care to tell me what makes you think I'm forgetting anything?

people from south Italy are still called Marocchini (people for Morocco), or terroni (Farmers) in a offensive way.

Never heard about southerners being called marocchini (guess it happens somewhere) while it's true about terroni just as it's true about northerners being called polentoni (polenta eaters or "polenta-men")...

SO WHAT?

Try in Italy to discriminate (for example in the work environment) against a dark skinned Thai or call him (or a dark skinned siciliano) a marocchino or a terrone and you will not only face the consequences of breaking the "general" laws regarding discriminations and verbal abuse but your legal position will actually be worsened by the fact that you have attacked an ethnic minority (there are specific laws protecting foreigners and any other kind of "minority" which make the penalties heavier if the same crime is committed against a minority, the same applies to any other western country I know of).

Then try to bribe the police force or the judicial system to win your case against the foreigner.

Then tell me how the media, if involved, present the fact.

Then tell me how the public opinion reacts to the fact.

Compare all of the above to the Land Of Smiles and tell me what are you trying to demonstrate.

This is a developing country ,plus LOS is a very close culture and that comes with pros and cons.

I know it all too well. I am talking about the cons.

Besides, if this wasn't a Thai based board I could just as well be talking for hours about Italy's or Western Europe's shortcomings.

And BTW I regard the kind of blind nationalism and (usually groundless) proudness of one's own country shown by Thais and many other people almost everywhere as sheer stupidity and ignorance.

You can't choose your homecountry but if you are lucky you can choose your "adopted" country and I for one, having extensively traveled and lived around the world, have found the United States of America the greatest country on earth and all going as planned will move back there in 2.5 years. Both countries don't require me to give up a citizenship to take the other but, if it was the case, I would gladly give up my Italian citizenship to become a US citizen.

And for those America-hating bashers, spare me the crap of pointing out to me the USA's many shortcoming, I'm well aware of them so if you like to see it this way, the USA are the "least bad country on earth".

Thailand (and anywhere else outside of the Western world) is nothing else than a (dangerous) playground, it isn't a place where the values and principles in which I believe are normally taught, believed, shared, practiced or even understood...

If/when the world will be ruled by non western powers and western values and principles (and the laws, the social structure and way of life that come with them) which we take for granted and which we regard as universal and universally shared will not be backed up anymore by economic and military power many daydreamers out there will have a harsh waking up. I hope not to be there anymore and live through it.

Just a short reply, I'm not trying to demonstrate anything, I was just reminding you (god forgive me)that what you see today in Thailand is what happened many years ago in what today we call civilized nations (1st world country if you prefer), but it seems you took it as a personal attack and you know it all too well.

Chill pill anyone?

[BAF]

Just a short reply, I'm not trying to demonstrate anything, I was just reminding you (god forgive me)that what you see today in Thailand is what happened many years ago in what today we call civilized nations (1st world country if you prefer),

While it's certainly true that many similarities can be found between what you see in Thailand today and what you could see in Italy and in general in the West at a comparable stage of development the 2 kinds of societies, their history, culture, overall background and the values and principles they are based on and driving their development are so VASTLY different that I wouldn't know how to comprehensively write about them on a message board (but that I have many times touched upon in the past on this and other boards).

There is a wealth of sociological issues to consider and discuss here but since this is just a short reply and you are "not trying to demonstrate anything"...

but it seems you took it as a personal attack and you know it all too well.

Chill pill anyone?

I took it as a "personal attack"?!?

Get-a-grip pill anyone?

Edited April 12, 2007 by BAF

[KhunMarco]

Just a short reply, I'm not trying to demonstrate anything, I was just reminding you (god forgive me)that what you see today in Thailand is what happened many years ago in what today we call civilized nations (1st world country if you prefer),

While it's certainly true that many similarities can be found between what you see in Thailand today and what you could see in Italy and in general in the West at a comparable stage of development the 2 kinds of societies, their history, culture, overall background and the values and principles they are based on and driving their development are so VASTLY different that I wouldn't know how to comprehensively write about them on a message board (but that I have many times touched upon in the past on this and other boards).

There is a wealth of sociological issues to consider and discuss here but since this is just a short reply and you are "not trying to demonstrate anything"...

but it seems you took it as a personal attack and you know it all too well.

Chill pill anyone?

I took it as a "personal attack"?!?

Get-a-grip pill anyone?

Glad to see you agree and you didn't take it personally

Yes background,values and principles are obviously very different, that's one of the reasons many western people chose to live here and spend their life with a Thai partner. Mad mad world

[jumnien]

Sometimes it takes a slight variance in perspective to see things fresh again. Yesterday, that little jolt was provided by a change in weather. Had a great flight in the morning 500 feet over Chaam beach then up near the coast of Phetburi. Beautiful clouds about which upon landing turned into a lovely downpour followed by a cool wind. Grilled shrimp on the bbq at home with another family and a get together downtown in the evening. Days like these make me realize what a wonderful life it can be here in Thailand if my mind and my heart are open to it. This morning awoke at 4:44 am as always to be greeted by the birds.

[LaoPo]

Sometimes it takes a slight variance in perspective to see things fresh again. Yesterday, that little jolt was provided by a change in weather. Had a great flight in the morning 500 feet over Chaam beach then up near the coast of Phetburi. Beautiful clouds about which upon landing turned into a lovely downpour followed by a cool wind. Grilled shrimp on the bbq at home with another family and a get together downtown in the evening. Days like these make me realize what a wonderful life it can be here in Thailand if my mind and my heart are open to it. This morning awoke at 4:44 am as always to be greeted by the birds.

I think you're a priviliged man mdeland, and lot of people would envy you.

But, unfortunately, this topic is about "Thailand is down....", whether true or not, but when you're flyin' high (sorry, just 500 feet ) in your beautiful plane....millions of Thai, down on earth, are worried about their future.

Sorry to have disturbed your nice day.

LaoPo

[Heng]

"You see, hundreds and hundreds of years ago the Moors conquered Sicily.... "

Yes, between the IX and XI sec.

I guess it was kind of a payback for the hundreds of years (about 600) of Roman rule they had been under...

No idea about that... the above is a contemporary movie quote from one of the better films of the 90's.

[Andrew Hicks]

All the while there are poor women and boys for men to exploit, there will always be those that travel to Thailand and other south east asian countries.

Close up the beer bars and other sexually orientated establishments , and Thailand will be very short of so called ' Tourists '.

It's a sad state of affairs, but in my opinion, it's the way it is.

What does 'Bangkok' suggest to people worldwide? Having dicitonaries banned doesn't diminish that reputation.

What does 'Thai girl' mean to people when I say I'm married to a Thai? It's a sad reputation to be pinned on the people of this country, as it's been cynically said, 'the nicest people that money can buy'.

Thailand is huge as a destination for family holidays and I think that the proportion of single male arrivals has fallen, but this sector still is important. I hope the authorities can develop regular tourism in a sustainable way so that vested interests can be confronted and the sex industry becomes less significant to the tourist economy.

[shochu]

Thailand down? Sure, it's the slow season and the world economy is slowing down too. Don't look to china and vietnam as examples. Right now there is a huge building binge going on because of the excess currency - did i say currency - i meant monopoly money floating around looking for a home thanks to the dollars and to a certain point yen. What most of you won't see in headlines, but in tiny print, and only sometimes if you look for it, is that there are massive layoffs and they have been happening for a few years now. It will only get worse. Not only that, but every major company is looking for a way to default - did i say default - i meant cut off their pension obligations as will nations eventually. Or it will all get deflated away.

I love it when people say - my home has appreciated 50% in the past couple of years. Well that's one way of looking at it. But here is another. Perhaps, this is an indicator of your currency - did I say currency - i meant fiat/funny money losing buying power, and wages staying flat.

A generation ago - during our parents time - an engineer could buy a lovely home for a years salary. Now the same engineer has to work over 10 years to buy the same house. So in effect we only have the buying power of less than 10%. So the powers that be have deluded us, well most of us into believing we have all this evergrowing wealth to spend, spend, spend so what do we do - spend, spend, spend! Where does that leave us. With homes so expensive nobody can afford them on the salaries most of us get. And things just keep getting more and more expensive. Now multiply this phenomenon - did i say phenomenon, i meant rape/pillage of the working class for the typical thai person, who not only has to put up with all this but more in the way of the foreigner coming and artifically making everything more expensive by driving up all things such as services and property and so on.

A nation has to produce things to get wealthy. Services don't cut it for a developing nation. Services are fine if your japan with huge savings - well at least for the aged - don't know what will happen to their younger generation - but that's another problem.

What i beleive the thai gov't is attempting to pursue with their subsistance economy is to get back to basics and to teach people that spending money on unnecessary things such as phones every few months with gadgets we don;t need are not the way forward. I for one applaud this approach since it will be the only way to move ahead in the future.

Where is thailand headed. A definite slowdown for sure - but not the end of the world. In the long term - it will be fine.

Japan is attempting to make thialand the detroit of asia and you can bet if it works - others will follow. We need to stop reacting to every little hiccup in the road and focus on the long term. If little hiccups affect you -then time to move on - but where?

I'm long on thailand and so are others i have talked to. I am very short on the U.S. It is a little worrying that the wizard of omaha's partners of many years is selling his home in new york to as he put it - not verbatim - to ride it out - or in my words to hide out - the storm in china of all places. (A big strong communist army to protect him). What is he so worried about that he doesn't want to be around when the shit hits the fan - perhaps sometime next year! Could it be the concentration camps - did i say concetration - I meant detention camps built around the U.S. by who other than cheney's former company. I left a good job in the U.S. just before 911 because I had accurately predicted the IT meltdown. But this was mitigated by the powers that be and now we have one of the scariest and much much bigger than pre-depression bubbles ever in the history of the financial world upon us. Will this too have the air slowly released into another bubble, or will this be the one. I don't know. The world finacial market is now too big for anyone whether gov't, major financial institutions working together to control. They can only try to guide it or delay it - but it doesn't always work.

Yes - to reiterate - things will get (a little/a lot ) worse before they get better!

Am I full of hot air - I sure hope so - otherwise...

But - ###### - my accuracy thus far says otherwise.

BAF - a good reading and very accurate not only for thailand but for most of asia when it comes to westerners marrying asians.

[KhunMarco]

"You see, hundreds and hundreds of years ago the Moors conquered Sicily.... "

Yes, between the IX and XI sec.

I guess it was kind of a payback for the hundreds of years (about 600) of Roman rule they had been under...

No idea about that... the above is a contemporary movie quote from one of the better films of the 90's.

Aha Heng , that's "True romance" right, I love that movie ( I have to admit I had used that line once to piss off one of my Sicilian friends...I'm still alive ..wheeew )

[Khun ?]

I am sure someone who gives Billions to charity needs to sell a house to ride it out.

Keep reacting to the past, the same reason your engineers are having problems.

China seems to of upset the markets in asia and protectionist corrupt countries are now full of useless excuses.

Go back to outhouses and candles if you like, you seem to not remember the past to well,

where the poor was at your every whim that you could exploit. Not so easy now that there

is more choices than to be subservants and second class ( mia nois) to the priviledged corrupt.

Then again you probably had a sheltered life and had a means to education that 99% of

Thais did not have. Is this the type of living you are referring your engineers could afford in the past.

Lets all be thankful someone came for the advancement of the poor in Thailand because if they would of had to relie on the engineers and leaders of the past they would still be squating in rice fields or 3rd and 4th wife of a corrupt educated thai.

Good engineers who apply themselves and can think on their own and keep up with advancements are still in dire need and make alot of money. You didn't think that a piece of paper was a free ride did you.

Yeah the good old days!!! Right

Japan really needs thai engineers.

Edited April 13, 2007 by Khun ?

[Mr_Dave]

Thailand down? Sure

Right now there is a huge building binge going on because of the excess currency

I love it when people say - my home has appreciated 50% in the past couple of years.

we only have the buying power of less than 10%.

Japan is attempting to make thialand the detroit of asia and you can bet if it works - others will follow.

now we have one of the scariest and much much bigger than pre-depression bubbles ever

Shochu has done his homework very carefully.

He's made a very neat summary of the essential factors.

I'll add only one, small, detail to everything above.

It is that Thais save gold.

Not the paper kind that depends on a stock exchange, but the kind that feels heavy in your hand.

Many Thai people, whenever they have money to save, will buy a gold necklace or bracelet and put it away "to keep".

Add that factor into the equation and I certainly agree with Shochu's assessment:

In the long run, Thailand will be fine.

I'm staying.

[Mid]

Thai's buy Gold ,

weather or not they SAVE Gold is another question ...........................

[jasreeve17]

Thailand down? Sure

Right now there is a huge building binge going on because of the excess currency

I love it when people say - my home has appreciated 50% in the past couple of years.

we only have the buying power of less than 10%.

Japan is attempting to make thialand the detroit of asia and you can bet if it works - others will follow.

now we have one of the scariest and much much bigger than pre-depression bubbles ever

Shochu has done his homework very carefully.

He's made a very neat summary of the essential factors.

I'll add only one, small, detail to everything above.

It is that Thais save gold.

Not the paper kind that depends on a stock exchange, but the kind that feels heavy in your hand.

Many Thai people, whenever they have money to save, will buy a gold necklace or bracelet and put it away "to keep".

Add that factor into the equation and I certainly agree with Shochu's assessment:

In the long run, Thailand will be fine.

I'm staying.

?

Shochu's post was strange. So strange, it became meaningless. ?

Mr_Dave says that hording a gold neckless or two will save you. ?

Over this thread, you can see many clear examples of reasons why Thailand is down (politics, protectionalist policies, debt [do you know any locals that didn't get three credit cards and a new car a couple of years ago, now it's time to start paying...], tourism problems, civil war [?], greed, increased local competition for torism and industry [Vietnam etc], half the population [farmers] are struggling to survive, increased crime. etc, etc)

There are so many significant problems here now, that in combination, they must cause a downturn.

Thailand is down, and it's going to get worse.

(Of course it will pick up some time down the line. But when? The Mongolians are still waiting for their country to pick up too. It's only been about a 800 year wait thus far, for them.)

[qwertz]

At sales meetings I often hear "Business is down, we only made 20% profit in the first quarter instead of 30%, the competition is killing us". If any fool dares to suggest that 20% profit is not negative, he's laughed out of the crisis meeting and will probably soon be demoted if not fired. Down means literally running at a loss and the Thai tourist industry will never do that; it's the other sectors that need to tighten up their acts. And I didn't quite understand the post claiming that half the farmers there are starving when Thailand is listed as the number one rice exporter. General opinion is down only because the economy there is subject to inept handling and the money is not reaching the sectors that need it most.

Edited April 14, 2007 by qwertz

[jasreeve17]

At sales meetings I often hear "Business is down, we only made 20% profit in the first quarter instead of 30%, the competition is killing us". If any fool dares to suggest that 20% profit is not negative, he's laughed out of the crisis meeting and will probably soon be demoted if not fired. Down means literally running at a loss and the Thai industry will never do that. And I didn't quite understand the post claiming that half the farmers there are starving when Thailand is listed as the number one rice exporter. General opinion is down only because the economy there is subject to inept handling and the money is not reaching the sectors that need it most.

A strange post that has the net effect of saying nothing.

Qwertz, don't take "Thailand is down" literally. You are being pedantic, and you know it.

The farmers (nearly half the population), have enough problems that they deem it right to protest about their woes. I suspect they know more about their woes than you do.

- national export size, and indiviual producer profits are not the same thing, as any businessman should know. You answered this with your last sentence anyway.

[Mid]

Down means literally running at a loss

not so ....................

humbly suggest you avail yourself of an English dictionary ,

unless we are using the agreed definitions , further conversation is impossible .

[qwertz]

You're absolutely right and everything before the last sentence was only meant to draw a tangible comparison to illustrate that "down" is relative, depending on who's losing or winning from a situation.

P.S. Mid, see the above, in sales terms down is running at a loss (even when that's not actually the case). Technically you're right, it's misuse of the dictionary term, but people turn words to suit their own purpose.

Edited April 14, 2007 by qwertz

[Mid]

most definitely DISAGREE ,

Down IS NOT running at a loss .......................................

[qwertz]

most definitely DISAGREE ,

Down IS NOT running at a loss .......................................

So disagree, that's what forums are for.

[Mid]

J.H.C !!!!!!!!

DOWN simply means Lower than before .

End of Story .

[jumnien]

Thailand business is down? I didn't know they harvested goose feathers in the Kingdom.

[blizzard]

anyone notice that in midday you can actually get a seat on the skytrain. or that today mbk looks like a ghosttown. does everyone go to their village for songkran.

[jasreeve17]

anyone notice that in midday you can actually get a seat on the skytrain. or that today mbk looks like a ghosttown. does everyone go to their village for songkran.

See, I told you that Thailand is down. You can even get a seat on the skytrain now, the place is deserted, an economic wilderland!

[Mid]

[Heng]

anyone notice that in midday you can actually get a seat on the skytrain. or that today mbk looks like a ghosttown. does everyone go to their village for songkran.

I was at MBK about 30 minutes ago. I drove myself today, and the first available parking space was on the 5th floor. Hopefully the owners of the cars on the first 4 1/2 floors weren't all ghosts.