Scotland must be given new independence vote - Sturgeon

[CG1 Blue]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Can I presume that you feel equal disquiet for the 62% of Scots who voted against Brexit, or the 74% of Scots who voted for parties other than the nasty party? 

 

The difference is, however, that the SNP is not demanding independence - they are demanding the right to pose the question to the electorate, so if the number is truly 55% against (fanciful in the extreme) then there would be no material change in the status of Scotland within the UK and, I am sure, none of us would live to see indyref3.

In answer to your question - I don't. Simply because the EU referendum and the GE were both UK wide votes.  An indy ref is only for Scotland. Therefore the percentages are not correlated. 

 

I agree with your other point - that the SNP are seeking the right to pose the question. But a question for you - do you not think it would be wise to wait a couple of years, so that it's much clearer what kind of a UK that Scotland would be leaving (or remaining in)? Is it just the apparent bloody mindedness from No.10 that is making you and others want to push for a referendum asap? If No.10 were to offer a referendum in 2022, would that be acceptable (hypothetically)? And if not, why not? 

 

[Susco]

The only reason the Scots voted against independence in the referendum is because at that point there was no Brexit yet, so why they would want to go through the hassle of independence because as long as Britain was part of the EU they would have the benefits of both.

From the Brexit referendum it became clear that the the Scots wanted to stay in the EU, hence the need for a new independence referendum, which I'm sure this time the majority will vote for.

[englishoak]

20 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Was it a no? So because I never sat up and danced to the tune that is currently playing in your head, you take this as an affirmation? I guess you must be right about so many things, using a premise like that!

 

I am not going to challenge your assertion about the stalwarts of the empire, but it somewhat goes against the narrative relied on by some of our other posters when the topic of the less commendable aspects of the empire come up - that of 'we were all responsible for it'. 

 

The reason I raise this is that, when digging out the newspaper cuttings I posted a couple of days back where various Unionist organs were predicting that various colonial outposts could never survive without the benevolence of the empire, I came across the below article.

 

Personally, I believe that all home nations have this stain on their character. I would not lay the blame solely at the door of the English. And the reason I raise it here is not simply to bash the union, but to highlight the predatory nature of it, and to further bolster the fact that the UK has a history of patronising their outposts with tales of support and how they could not survive without it, all the while stealing everything worth stealing. 

 

British took $45 trillion out of India in 200 years

Foreign Minister S Jaishankar on Tuesday said that the British took away $45 trillion during their rule of two centuries in India. 

According to... research published by Columbia University Press, the British Raj siphoned out at least USD 44.6 trillion.

 

“The weavers in India became beggars and India went from being a world-famous exporter of finished cloth into an importer when from having 27 per cent of the world trade to less than 2 per cent. In fact, Britain’s industrial revolution was actually premised upon the de-industrialization of India."

 

 

Thats definitely a no then, obviously i hit a nerve. 

 

Clearly your bothered about our shared British Empires past, im not in the slightest, nothing to do with me what went on and its unchangeable no matter what, there is blood on every single nations and expansion throughout history, BTW  Empire is my speciality and Scots regiments often took part in the bloody and what youd call shameful episodes with great gusto and ingenuity. They also ruled with an Iron fist, raped and pillaged for themselves in the process like many other British representatives of the Crown.  I wont go into them here but can if you like later, 

 

You dont get to cherry pick just the bad times and cry foul, better to look at the overall result if better or not over time. How far would you like to go back... 60 100 300 500 100 1200 2000  years ? 

What have the Romans ever done for us is the joke ... well unlike you and it seems much of the whining Scots here I dont blame the Romans or the French etc for the past and very grateful for what they brought and did, its funny the Scots continue to blame The English since its really French and European rule its been under if we are going to recite history lets go there.....Scotland never even forged a nation let alone a government or law book, it was literally nothing but clans and chiefs squabbling and raiding, its old news and old history, the Highlands true historic past is mostly barbarian/Druidic and Viking/Norse ones so please stop with the yearning for what never existed...

 

India was forged first as one nation by its most bloodiest and vicious ruler Asoka who also happened to become a devote Buddhist and  wiser, as a consequence it became India's golden age and Asoka was also responsible for sending out Buddhist missionaries across the then known world to spread enlightenment. Bad men can and do great things. When he died India once again relapsed into chaos and bloody times until the British arrived and once  given order by ending the bloody reigns of the Rajahs and technology India once again progressed immeasurably and continues to this day. Because of the British and due to the European conquerors, much of the world has been transformed in a few short hundred years to fantastic heights and  to the peak of what we see today allowing you and I to post here., the WEST and yes much of it Britain and its Empire is in the main responsible for  all the tech you use today and the standard of living most everywhere, most all modern common laws and 90% of the worlds commercial laws derive from British law, in short the great and good far far outweighs the bad... you cannot pick a bad apple out of a barrel and declare the barrel bad...  that is what you and many attempt and do. 

 

IMO No one owes anyone anything done by their ancestors and i sure as heck dont believe a country does nor do i feel any responsibility for the bad.  Its  helped the world immeasurably to offset any of the transgressions or mistakes made, culminating over two great wars in self sacrificing the Empire for the sake of allies, Europe and in the end the world. Those who mock or dismiss that sacrifice do so out of ignorance and demean those who laid down their lives for what they believed was the greater good of humanity, probably most Scots have ancestors who did so no less than do I.  I will remain proud of my past whilst acknowledging all that has gone before both good and bad...

 

These modern concerns and examples of  transgressions by a country in a world long dead and gone has always bemused me...I believe sons do not and should not pay for the sins of their fathers. Same goes for my country and its past actions. History just IS, its nothing to get upset about today, unless you have an axe to grind of course and thats REALLY what its all its about... Everything any Scot of note has ever done or invented etc has only ever been as a British subject. When it comes down to it Scotland has a totally insignificant history WITHOUT being ruled by England, whats worse is the chance a few years ago was thrown away and is as you have virtually admitted before a splinter in your mind today... I sympathise with that but not with your whining and attempts to make me feel bad because I dont and have at least in part made  a difference to my countries future..  I hope someday you will be able to say the same about yours. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by englishoak

[RuamRudy]

10 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

I agree with your other point - that the SNP are seeking the right to pose the question. But a question for you - do you not think it would be wise to wait a couple of years, so that it's much clearer what kind of a UK that Scotland would be leaving (or remaining in)? Is it just the apparent bloody mindedness from No.10 that is making you and others want to push for a referendum asap? If No.10 were to offer a referendum in 2022, would that be acceptable (hypothetically)? And if not, why not? 

 

There is, of course, political capital to be made out of the current discord within the country. All political parties maximise the utility they can squeeze from any situation so I don't think the SNP should be expected to overly scrutinize this gift horse. 

 

Personally, though, my mind is set against Brexit. If it had been won in a fair and unambiguous manner, I would probably still be against it, but the nefarious manner in which it was achieved has made me resolute. Manna might rain down from heaven each and every day as a result of it, but I will still regret it. 

 

I believe a significant number of my countrymen feel the same. We are a thran lot up north, and when forced into a situation we clearly do not want, time is not likely to be a great healer. 

 

In respect to your specific question about 2022, this allows a party with barely 10% of the MPs in Scotland to set the narrative. The Scottish Government has received multiple electoral mandates to hold a referendum; the SNP has 81% of the seats in Westminster and had total control of the Scottish parliament for over 10 years- why should the Tories, with absolutely no authority and next to no support, call the shots when they are a nothing more than an unwanted nuisance? 

[ThaiBunny]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

and had total control of the Scottish parliament for over 10 years

Which ten years were they? There are 129 seats in the current parliament and the SNP hold 61 of them - hardly "total control"

[RuamRudy]

3 hours ago, englishoak said:

Clearly your bothered about our shared British Empires past, im not in the slightest, nothing to do with me what went on and its unchangeable no matter what, there is blood on every single nations and expansion throughout history, BTW  Empire is my speciality and Scots regiments often took part in the bloody and what youd call shameful episodes with great gusto and ingenuity. They also ruled with an Iron fist, raped and pillaged for themselves in the process like many other British representatives of the Crown.  I wont go into them here but can if you like later, 

I don't feel responsible, of course, but I do feel that we should not ignore the part our forefathers played, that is why I am not in denial of the role Scots played in the expansion of the empire.

 

But this is, whilst undeniably interesting, somewhat off topic and unrelated to my point, which was that Westminster is very adept at telling their colonies that they are a net drain on the British, whilst simultaneously rifling through every drawer in the house. 

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

Which ten years were they? There are 129 seats in the current parliament and the SNP hold 61 of them - hardly "total control"

As I am sure you are aware, the Scottish Parliament is voted for under the D'Hondt method, specifically designed to prevent any one party to get close to a majority let alone an actual majority. That the SNP did achieve a majority for a couple of years was completely unexpected, even by the SNP; but over the these past 10 or so years they have controlled the parliament with the support of coalition partners. 

[ThaiBunny]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

As I am sure you are aware, the Scottish Parliament is voted for under the D'Hondt method, specifically designed to prevent any one party to get close to a majority let alone an actual majority. That the SNP did achieve a majority for a couple of years was completely unexpected, even by the SNP; but over the these past 10 or so years they have controlled the parliament with the support of coalition partners. 

Thanks for agreeing they don't have total control which was your original claim. From another perspective their support has fallen in the last ten years from the two years where they controlled an absolute majority

[RuamRudy]

Just now, ThaiBunny said:

Thanks for agreeing they don't have total control which was your original claim. From another perspective their support has fallen in the last ten years from the two years where they controlled an absolute majority

Within a system designed to force coalitions, they have far more authority than any other party. Number 2 in the Tory party is Annie Wells, better known as '8% Annie' - because that is the share of the constituency vote that she got at the last election. I think we can all be in agreement that if she is the quality of MSP that the Tories push to the front, they have no authority whatsoever. 

[ThaiBunny]

5 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Within a system designed to force coalitions, they have far more authority than any other party. Number 2 in the Tory party is Annie Wells, better known as '8% Annie' - because that is the share of the constituency vote that she got at the last election. I think we can all be in agreement that if she is the quality of MSP that the Tories push to the front, they have no authority whatsoever. 

Thanks for quoting what I already know from Mr Google. None of that supports your foolish claim that the SNP has total control

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, ThaiBunny said:

Thanks for quoting what I already know from Mr Google. None of that supports your foolish claim that the SNP has total control

Well maybe clear it up for me - I am always open to being educated by those more knowledgeable than me. Who has been in control of the Scottish Parliament since 2011?

[ThaiBunny]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Well maybe clear it up for me - I am always open to being educated by those more knowledgeable than me. Who has been in control of the Scottish Parliament since 2011?

It's obvious - no one has been total control as the SNP has to rely on a coalition (your own words)

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

It's obvious - no one has been total control as the SNP has to rely on a coalition (your own words)

Ok, pedantry over substance, I see...

 

But you are correct that the SNP is reliant upon the support of their coalition partners. Fortunately their coalition partners also recognise that the UK is not an institution from which Scotland benefits, and therefore support's Scotland's withdrawal from it.  

[ThaiBunny]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

Ok, pedantry over substance, I see...

 

But you are correct that the SNP is reliant upon the support of their coalition partners. Fortunately their coalition partners also recognise that the UK is not an institution from which Scotland benefits, and therefore support's Scotland's withdrawal from it.  

Oh gosh, how many posts has it been for you finally to admit that total means total? Must we closely parse every utterance of yours and then find out that you're really Humpty Dumpty from Alice: 

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

Oh gosh, how many posts has it been for you finally to admit that total means total? Must we closely parse every utterance of yours and then find out that you're really Humpty Dumpty from Alice: 

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

Is this going somewhere or are you simply bored?

If the latter, you can always address my question of who you think has been in control of the Scottish Parliament since 2011.

[Nigel Garvie]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Is this going somewhere or are you simply bored?

If the latter, you can always address my question of who you think has been in control of the Scottish Parliament since 2011.

Jesus, I'm bored. The facts were agreed maybe 10 posts ago. Please Thaibunny gie us a break, post something different.

 

[RuamRudy]

As if there weren't ample reasons already to heap praise upon the truly magnificent John Bercow, this stalwart of democracy is leading the way to sanity through the fetid dung heap that is Johnson's broken Brexit Britain ???? 

 

John Bercow: 'Perfectly possible for Scots to hold wildcat indyref2 without Westminster approval'

 

 

"Mr Bercow... warned that Boris Johnson's refusal to allow an official referendum would backfire and lead to support for Scottish independence to “exponentially rise”.

He said the UK's future "hasn't looked more precarious" and argued that Brexit justified another separation referendum"

[Airbagwill]

Anyone who doesn't see Scotland leaving the Union as a real possibility is living in cloud cuckoo land

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

Anyone who doesn't see Scotland leaving the Union as a real possibility is living in cloud cuckoo land

You had better tell that to the Scots that voted to remain within the UK, and not to us.

[RuamRudy]

21 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

Anyone who doesn't see Scotland leaving the Union as a real possibility is living in cloud cuckoo land

Apologies! I misread your post. I agree with you totally - the train is, in my opinion, already unstoppable.

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by RuamRudy

[vogie]

9 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Apologies! I misread your post. I agree with you totally - the train is, in my opinion, already unstoppable.

 

So you show a graph with the Scots voting to remain, hardly a great endorsement now is it. The train seems to be having problems leaving the station.

Edited February 20, 2020 by vogie

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

So you show a graph with the Scots voting to remain, hardly a great endorsement now is it. The train seems to be having problems leaving the station.

Support for the union has been on the wane since start of the chart, so nearly 3 years of decline, and two of the last three polls had outright majorities for independence, the third was at 50/50.

 

What do you think will happen to reverse this slump and make the union shine again in the eyes of the country which rejected Brexit and rejected the Tories, but upon which the union imposed both these things?

[vogie]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

Support for the union has been on the wane since start of the chart, so nearly 3 years of decline, and two of the last three polls had outright majorities for independence, the third was at 50/50.

 

What do you think will happen to reverse this slump and make the union shine again in the eyes of the country which rejected Brexit and rejected the Tories, but upon which the union imposed both these things?

Now we have got Brexit done, the Scots now only have two choices to choose from, Brexit is out of the way now, as time passes I think you will find that Scotland will choose to remain with the UK. I know this is not what you want to hear RR, and I know you and the rest of team SNP will be very disappointed, but remaining as part of the UK is more than a possibility, more of a probability.

It should be obvious that during the Brexit process Scots sentiment would have been at its highest, but once the dust settles everything will be back to the norm again.

[RuamRudy]

Just now, vogie said:

Now we have got Brexit done, the Scots now only have two choices to choose from, Brexit is out of the way now, as time passes I think you will find that Scotland will choose to remain with the UK. I know this is not what you want to hear RR, and I know you and the rest of team SNP will be very disappointed, but remaining as part of the UK is more than a possibility, more of a probability.

It should be obvious that during the Brexit process Scots sentiment would have been at its highest, but once the dust settles everything will be back to the norm again.

If you could explain WHY you think that a collective apathy will transpire, I could possibly be convinced, but simply saying that apathy will set in and the trend reverse without identifying what will drive that reversal of opinion is not really selling it, I am afraid, especially as each day brings a veritable feast of opportunities to win over more swithering voters to the right side. 

[vogie]

9 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

If you could explain WHY you think that a collective apathy will transpire, I could possibly be convinced, but simply saying that apathy will set in and the trend reverse without identifying what will drive that reversal of opinion is not really selling it, I am afraid, especially as each day brings a veritable feast of opportunities to win over more swithering voters to the right side. 

I never mentioned anything about apathy, I said sentiment would be at its highest, that does not mean that the Scots will become apathetic, it means they will become more rational, please don't put words in my mouth. 

Everybody on here that says definitely that Scotland will leave the UK are guessing, they don't know, they are making a profound statement without any proof. The only proof we have is the 2014 Scottish referendum which trumps all guesswork and wishfull thinking.

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by vogie

[melvinmelvin]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

As if there weren't ample reasons already to heap praise upon the truly magnificent John Bercow, this stalwart of democracy is leading the way to sanity through the fetid dung heap that is Johnson's broken Brexit Britain ???? 

 

John Bercow: 'Perfectly possible for Scots to hold wildcat indyref2 without Westminster approval'

 

 

"Mr Bercow... warned that Boris Johnson's refusal to allow an official referendum would backfire and lead to support for Scottish independence to “exponentially rise”.

He said the UK's future "hasn't looked more precarious" and argued that Brexit justified another separation referendum"

 

Bercow is probably right re his views on effects of the two kinds of referendums

 

Not sure that his use of the terms official and unofficial are correct thought, his usage is built

on an assumption of legal matters

 

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

I never mentioned anything about apathy, I said sentiment would be at its highest, that does not mean that the Scots will become apathetic, it means they will become more rational, please don't put words in my mouth. 

Everybody on here that says definitely that Scotland will leave the UK are guessing, they don't know, they are making a profound statement without any proof. The only proof we have is the 2014 Scottish referendum which trumps all guesswork and wishfull thinking.

 

The demographics are such that something like 75% of those under 25 are in favour of independence. Of those under 65, 59% are in favour - the only demographic with majority support for the union is in the over 65s. Even if nothing else changes, attrition will see the rise in support for independence continue unabated. 

 

So I will repeat my previous question - what do you suppose will happen to change the minds of a significant number of people, when the things that they are clearly not happy about show no sign of changing. 

 

I am no more capable of reading the tea leaves than you are, but simple common sense tells me that something fundamental needs to happen in order to change the perspectives of an increasing number of people. 

[izod10]

On 12/13/2019 at 4:45 AM, Bluespunk said:

Correct. 

You personally have been correct over nothing during the Brexit negotiations,keep it up  lol

[izod10]

On 2/19/2020 at 4:10 AM, RuamRudy said:

Ok, pedantry over substance, I see...

 

But you are correct that the SNP is reliant upon the support of their coalition partners. Fortunately their coalition partners also recognise that the UK is not an institution from which Scotland benefits, and therefore support's Scotland's withdrawal from it.  

Shetland and Orkney have responded to the referdum propsal stating they will not join Scotland,   LIb dems in power there  no fish no oil   dear me

[Bluespunk]

4 minutes ago, izod10 said:

You personally have been correct over nothing during the Brexit negotiations,keep it up  lol

Really, back this lie claim up please...