Are Thais being ripped of BTS - MRT wise

[josephbloggs]

6 hours ago, Monomial said:

 

Have you looked at the long distance rail networks of nearly every country? That is how every railroad works. Of course it is workable. The same number of trains would still run. They would only be priced differently and operated by different carriers, and you would be able to choose which train you entered, just like you choose which bus to board.

Not in any country that I am familiar with.  The UK's rail network is privately operated by many different companies, but not different companies running on the same routes.  You say every railroad works that way, it doesn't.   I can't think of any examples that I have ever been on.  So please share an example.

And you are talking about mass transit in the city - utterly unworkable.  You really think you could have different companies running up and down the Sukhumvit line and you could choose which train you got on?  

 

Quote

I am not saying this is an optimal solution, but you are wrong to claim It is not workable. And I am specifically stating, that you were wrong when you said this was "not a monopoly". The current system *IS* a private monopoly, and it *IS* too expensive because of this fact.  Just because you love private companies screwing the working class out of money so you can make bigger returns on your investment, doesn't mean that it is the optimal solution either.

 

Good to know that you are of the "greed is good" brigade. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Many of us here disagree with you, and you can laugh all you want just like we can laugh at you. Today's pricing control on the skytrain is clearly not working for the majority however. It only works for the private investors. I believe that a new economic paradigm is ultimately more workable than the anachronistic PPP arrangements of the past.

 

Nowhere did I say it wasn't a monopoly, I think you are getting confused.  But it is a mass transit system and would be impossible to be otherwise - that is why there are price controls built in to the contract.  (Anyway you kind of do have a choice: use it or take a bus / taxi.  You're going from Sukhumvit to Silom you can use the BTS or the MRT, and your choices will expand as the number of lines do)

And thanks for putting words in my mouth that I think "greed is good".  The fact is it is a private enterprise and no private enterprise anywhere in the world invests millions just to make you feel better.  The network is not at 100% capacity yet therefore they will not invest - and neither would you.  If you run a business would you not be concerned with making a profit?  That is the whole point of business, like it or not.  The PPP model may not be ideal but these systems would almost certainly never have been built without it - we'd still be taking two hours in a taxi to get up and down Sukhumvit (yes, I lived here before the Skytrain was built and remember it well).

The skytrain is not cheap by Thai standards yet hundreds of thousands of Thais use it each day.  Personally I believe all mass transit should be state owned and subsidised - so yet again you are completely wrong to put words in my mouth.  But let's say the BTS was state owned and state run do you think it would be anywhere near as well maintained and efficient as it is?  Not a chance.  

[Pravda]

Since i moved to Samut Prakan the BTS is free. Does anyone know how long this promotion will be going on? 

[uhuh]

On 12/31/2019 at 1:42 PM, mogandave said:

How is it a monopoly with thousands of busses and taxis all going to the same places? 
 

Busses have mostly been abolished in central Bangkok.

It used to be the case that the unwashed masses took the cheap bus down there on ground level whereas the "better" folks would zip past them on the BTS.

Now this choice doesnt really exist anymore as buses are so few and far between. 

(But some people - myself included - start to use buses again as BTS trips during rush hour have become a horror show).

 

As for the outlying districts like Paknam or Kheha - it was never feasible to commute from there to central Bangkok by bus. Now people buy their condos there and work in central Bangkok. 

[uhuh]

On 12/17/2019 at 2:17 PM, Nakmuay887 said:

How much is a one month pass? Or do you have to pay per trip? 

There are no monthly passes. 

You pay for every trip. (Details see note below)

And this makes it so expensive for commuters. 

A single trip is kind of cheap.

But a commuter will pay (just for BTS) at least the same,  maybe 2 or 3 times more than a monthly pass in German cities. 

And this does not include MRT, buses and motorcycles. German monthly passes typically include all of this (motorcycle taxis do not exist in Germany,  you have to walk the last mile. But there are sidewalks, whereas Bangkok sois don't have sidewalks).

 

Average salary in Bangkok is about 25000 baht. Typical transportation cost (without taxis,  which are often the only way to get somewhere,  but including buses,  motorcycles and the occasional ride on the MRT) for a commuter using BTS (but no other train like MRT) is almost 5000 THB (i once checked it for myself and it came to 4800). It's more than 15% of salary. (Less than half of it is the cost for  BTS.)

In Germany it's something like 3-5% of salary (and it's a single monthly ticket) 

 

For this money, on the BTS you get

- fast clean trains with a very high frequency

- standing room only 95% of times (like in the MRT, they removed seats to make more profit - sorry, to accommodate more passengers)

- swaying carriages rocking back and forth,  probably due to good maintenance of the rails (they even have PAs apologizing for it - certainly cheaper than maintenance)

- free Chinese lessons on the train by the immersion method, including lessons in Chinese culture

 

Now decide yourself whether this is a rip-off or a bargain.

 

 

Note for purists: there are "monthly passes" on the BTS. They are not a pass that gives you unlimited travel on the BTS within one month. You buy a certain amount of trips (you can choose to buy 15, 25, 40 or 50 trips) and you can use the trips within 30 days. If you travel far,  this is a considerable discount. Short trips are actually cheaper if you buy a single ticket.  Some parts of BTS you have to pay additionally even if you use this pass.

Unused trips are forfeited after these 30 days. 

 

 

[Monomial]

On 1/10/2020 at 7:11 AM, josephbloggs said:

Not in any country that I am familiar with.  The UK's rail network is privately operated by many different companies, but not different companies running on the same routes.  You say every railroad works that way, it doesn't.   I can't think of any examples that I have ever been on.  So please share an example.

 

 

Explain your definition of "different companies running on the same routes"?  In nearly every case I know of, rail carriers rent the tracks. Every carrier doesn't build out their own infrastructure. It is not cost effective to do that. And multiple companies can rent the tracks and run whatever routes they want to run.  If two competing companies want to run the exact same route because there is sufficient capacity, nothing stops them. Freight carriers commonly do this. Clearly, contrary to your statement, this is a workable system. I know VIa Rail and Amtrak overlap on some segments in Canada near the southern border. If you are going between cities served by both, you have a choice. It works.

 

If you  1) control access to the tracks, and 2) operate your own cars on the tracks, and 3) do not allow anyone else to use the tracks to operate a competing service, then you are a monopoly. I don't understand your argument that the BTS is not a monopoly. It is, and their high prices reflect this.

 

There is no reason the Thai government could not own the tracks and allow one or more private companies to lease those tracks in the exact same way they assign concessions to multiple bus companies that charge different amounts to run on public roads.  This would result in lower costs. Better still is if the government simply became the monopoly carrier for mass transit, like the SRT. The SRT is very cheap, and they lose money like mad. But they are very inexpensive. Nobody would ever say that poor Thais can not afford to take a train.

 

The government needs to absorb the costs for infrastructure, so that passengers fares are not used to pay the inflated costs of private investment.  Public money is always cheaper. That is the way to lower prices and get more people using the service.

 

 

 

 

[josephbloggs]

16 hours ago, Monomial said:

 

Explain your definition of "different companies running on the same routes"?  In nearly every case I know of, rail carriers rent the tracks. Every carrier doesn't build out their own infrastructure. It is not cost effective to do that. And multiple companies can rent the tracks and run whatever routes they want to run.  If two competing companies want to run the exact same route because there is sufficient capacity, nothing stops them. Freight carriers commonly do this. Clearly, contrary to your statement, this is a workable system. I know VIa Rail and Amtrak overlap on some segments in Canada near the southern border. If you are going between cities served by both, you have a choice. It works.

 

Do you really need a definition of "Different companies on the same routes"?  Maybe somewhere in Canada does this but certainly nowhere in the UK or Europe or anywhere else that I am familiar with.  In the UK we have 16 different rail franchises - 16 different companies running trains.  But they all have their own routes.  They share track in places, but they run different routes.  ie.  Only one company has the West Coast mainline.  One has the South East etc.  Not hard to understand.  But anyway they are long distance routes - you were specifically talking about a mass transit system and you haven't given me one example of where that works where you have different operators running the same mass transit lines.

 

Quote

If you  1) control access to the tracks, and 2) operate your own cars on the tracks, and 3) do not allow anyone else to use the tracks to operate a competing service, then you are a monopoly. I don't understand your argument that the BTS is not a monopoly. It is, and their high prices reflect this.

 

Why do you keep saying that?  I have told you twice now that I have never said the BTS isn't a monopoly.  By definition it is.
 

Quote

There is no reason the Thai government could not own the tracks and allow one or more private companies to lease those tracks in the exact same way they assign concessions to multiple bus companies that charge different amounts to run on public roads.  This would result in lower costs. Better still is if the government simply became the monopoly carrier for mass transit, like the SRT. The SRT is very cheap, and they lose money like mad. But they are very inexpensive. Nobody would ever say that poor Thais can not afford to take a train.

It would be totally unworkable, I don't know how you can't see that.  Imagine we had three companies running up and down the Sukhumvit Line.  You buy a ticket for company A.  Are they going to hold you on the concourse below for Company B and Company C's trains to pass first before you can go up to get the next Company A train?    Or do they trust you to wait on the platform until your company's train comes along?  What about the crowding that would cause?  And what about the inconvenience of only being able to get on a train every 12 minutes instead of every four minutes.   You say it is easily workable so please explain it.  And give me an example of anywhere else in the world that has more than one company operating the same mass transit line.

Also trains aren't free.  How many companies would be falling over themselves to invest hundreds of millions on trains, staff and equipment when they are sharing the line with two other companies and can only run four trains an hour so they can only generate a third of the revenue.  It would make no financial sense at all for anyone to invest.  Simple economics is obviously not your strong point.

[metisdead]

Some off topic posts and replies have been removed.  

[toast1]

On 12/17/2019 at 7:17 AM, Pravda said:

 

This is the same thing I wondered 10 years ago when I went to Tokyo and was paying 1-3 bucks for a Subway ride comparing to Toronto which has the worst public transport comparing to any mega city on the planet and paying $3. Demand and yes monopoly. Thais are using BTS in large numbers. They can command any price they want. 

 

 

Yes, Japanese trains are mostly privately run. Cheap, quick and reliable.

Government run trains, not so much.