Not stable netsupply.

[Peterphuket]

Hello,

 

After many years living here in the area of Keng Krachan, I get bored about the power here at home, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

The power is floating between 160 and over 260V, wherby 260v regular and 160 sometimes.

Also I have a neighbour with a big weldingtransformer with as result my APC-UPS is the wholeday relay-clicking becuase the intermittent power.

So for that reason I have decided to buy an stabiliser, in this case the one showed on the picture.

But I have an problem to connect correctly because there are some groups with a too large capacity, I don't like to connect, for example the washingmachine and a 80 ltr boiler.

So naybe somebody can give me an advice how to connect the junctionbox showed in the picture.

 

First I was thinking I send this problem especially to Crossy because he knows myny things about electric in the broadest sense of the word, but later I realized, I'm not the only one with this problem.

For that reason I make this request in general

Thanks in advance.

Peter

[Crossy]

You will need to split off the circuits you want to stabilise into a second box, if you get another Schneider/Square-D you won't need to buy any extra breakers. You will of course need to extend the cables to the new box.

 

Feed the new box from a new 50A breaker in your existing box via your new stabiliser, use 10mm2 cable.

 

Read my pinned thread on how to hook up the beast.

 

 

[Crossy]

How many circuits will you NOT want to stabilise as it may be easier to split them out and feed the existing box via the stab.

 

[Metropolitian]

10 hours ago, Peterphuket said:

I don't like to connect, for example the washingmachine and a 80 ltr boiler.

10 hours ago, Peterphuket said:

 

 

 

First, after reading your post and at the 'washingmachine' , oh a Dutchy..  Then the lazada page confirmed ???? Hoi ????

 

Crossy already commented about the AVR page and suggest to put another box next to the original, just for those that you want to stabilize OR not want to.

 

I just checked the photo. 15 groups.  But, I also noticed the connection with open insulation at the big cable between the box and another box which looks much like a Safe-T-Cut box.  That unprotected part, a rework wouldn't hurt.

 

Then, there is the link from the safe-t-cut box (?) to a breaker, which I assume is a knife switch, maybe Chang switch. There I see two wires (yellow and white) going to the right. That could be a unprotected connection, perhaps you were trying to circumvent the safety mechanism from the safetcut.

 

Perhaps an better idea is to change the wiring plan a little and have three groups : stabilized, protected, and 'unprotected' (of course with suitable breakers).

 

Nothing wrong with getting a consumer unit with din rail instead of the click method like the Square D.

Crossy said already: with another square d box you can just move some of the breakers to the new box.

But my point would : with a NON square d box , but with rail (Schneider sell this too), you can split into two main groups which you can not do with the square D (only one main and one Live rail).

 

The price for DIN rail breakers are very low, I bought Schneider for 88bath and other brands for 40 to 60 baht. 200-300 for RCBO (Aardlekschakelaar/Automaat)

 

 

 

[Peterphuket]

15 hours ago, Metropolitian said:

 

 

First, after reading your post and at the 'washingmachine' , oh a Dutchy..  Then the lazada page confirmed ???? Hoi ????

 

Crossy already commented about the AVR page and suggest to put another box next to the original, just for those that you want to stabilize OR not want to.

 

I just checked the photo. 15 groups.  But, I also noticed the connection with open insulation at the big cable between the box and another box which looks much like a Safe-T-Cut box.  That unprotected part, a rework wouldn't hurt.

 

Then, there is the link from the safe-t-cut box (?) to a breaker, which I assume is a knife switch, maybe Chang switch. There I see two wires (yellow and white) going to the right. That could be a unprotected connection, perhaps you were trying to circumvent the safety mechanism from the safetcut.

 

Perhaps an better idea is to change the wiring plan a little and have three groups : stabilized, protected, and 'unprotected' (of course with suitable breakers).

 

Nothing wrong with getting a consumer unit with din rail instead of the click method like the Square D.

Crossy said already: with another square d box you can just move some of the breakers to the new box.

But my point would : with a NON square d box , but with rail (Schneider sell this too), you can split into two main groups which you can not do with the square D (only one main and one Live rail).

 

The price for DIN rail breakers are very low, I bought Schneider for 88bath and other brands for 40 to 60 baht. 200-300 for RCBO (Aardlekschakelaar/Automaat)

 

 

 

Thank you very much "Metropolitian" for your quickly and clear explanation.

I'm a bit late with the answer, but better late than never.

 

You are correct with "oh a dutchy" but to be honestly, I don't know why, however with your "aardlekschakelaar" you are a dutchy two.

 

First I have to say I was not aware about Crossy he have already things explained about the AVR, maybe it's because I place this item before looking on the forum to previous experiences, that is my fault.

 

I understand a second box could be a good solution but a lot of extra work but worth considering.

As you can see in the next two pictures, a safetycutswitch, and a mainswitch (not a knife one, but what's in a name)

Also you can see the white and yellow wires are gone to the pilot lamp.

Also your suggestion for three groups are an good idee, but everything can be protected so two groups can also suffice.

I don't understand the difference between a square box and NON square box, also the mounted switches are  with a din-rail, I think so.

See the 2 pictures.

Best regards,

Peter

[Peterphuket]

21 hours ago, Crossy said:

You will need to split off the circuits you want to stabilise into a second box, if you get another Schneider/Square-D you won't need to buy any extra breakers. You will of course need to extend the cables to the new box.

 

Feed the new box from a new 50A breaker in your existing box via your new stabiliser, use 10mm2 cable.

 

Read my pinned thread on how to hook up the beast.

 

 

Wow, thank you very much Crossy, I did not see this topic you placed before, very useful, thank you again, and thanks to "Metropolitian's answer.

[sometimewoodworker]

3 hours ago, Peterphuket said:

I understand a second box could be a good solution but a lot of extra work but worth considering.

It isn’t really very much extra work since you need to separate the high power items (showers etc.) that should not be on the AVR from the ones that should. A second box makes the separation easy to manage.

 

3 hours ago, Peterphuket said:

I don't understand the difference between a square box and NON square box, also the mounted switches are  with a din-rail, I think so.

Square D is a brand name and @Metropolitan seems to have missed the point that your current box is a DIN rail one with mostly Square D DIN rail breakers.

 

Square D is commonly associated with non DIN rail breakers 

 

 

[Crossy]

Current box is NOT DIN mount, it's Square-D plug-in.

 

It may be easier to replace the current box with a DIN mount unit, although that then makes all the existing breakers and the box redundant. 

 

Put the "do not regulate" circuits on the left and the "regulate" circuits on the right with the feed/return from the AVR in the centre.

 

[Peterphuket]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

Current box is NOT DIN mount, it's Square-D plug-in.

 

It may be easier to replace the current box with a DIN mount unit, although that then makes all the existing breakers and the box redundant. 

 

Put the "do not regulate" circuits on the left and the "regulate" circuits on the right with the feed/return from the AVR in the centre.

 

Thank you, but first I have to go to Watsadu to orientate myself, second after your description about an 15KVA stabiliser, I try to find some info about availability and prices.

Of course I can buy the powerhero and use this only for the important items excluding airco but I'm not shure, I use only 1 airco at night.

[Metropolitian]

The D Square box from the poster is not a regar DIN rail with 35mm spacing, but a plug-in rail.

There DO exist plug-in breakers which can be mounted on a 35mm DIN rail, the breaker version of the poster is QOvs from Schneider which is plug-in only.

 

Very common with Schneider and their Square D wing is that the breakers are black and while the DIN35 version with Schneider are mostly white they do have a range that are black or grey.

Not only Schneider sells plug-in but other brands do, like Chang and the poster have two of them in his box.

 

Schneider and their Square D have split unit, for those who want to have two groups of unprotected and rcbo protected rails.

Someone could change their box to the split unit version to save on the cost of new breakers.

But the poster have his box in a metal casing with no room for extra space.

The poster need at least 16 slots for breakers of which he is using 15 currently.

I did some little research and found out that the split unit from Square D is 54 cm wide. His Square D Classic is around 45 cm wide.

An exact number I couldn't find as the 16 slot classic is rare, most boxes are 14 or 18 slots (respectively 39 cm and 51,6 cm).

 

For the poster the solutions would be: a new consumer unit.

This removes the hassle with positioning the second consumer unit, which has to be outside the big metal box, then the wiring could be short and issues with making a hole and the needs of grommets, etc etc.

A consumer unit with 20 slots would measure around 45 cm, which could with a high possibility fix in the place of the current consumer unit.

Yes, that would mean indeed new breakers and setup, but unavoidable as there are 15 connected subgroups in his box and the available space in the big box.

But nothing is lost if... taking out the big metal casing and put everything on the wall with OR a split unit D Square OR keep the current box and add another smaller (preferably a DIN35 style) consumer unit for either the stabilized or unstabilized groups whichever count is the smallest.

 

 

From left to right, top to bottom: A din rail, an Schneider breaker on a rail, some breakers from Schneider of which the plugin are black and rail versions are white, plug-in plugged in their version of rails, QOvs Breaker which is plug-in only and the split unit from Square D (which mostly comes with an RCBO for the group at the right side)

 

 

[Metropolitian]

12 hours ago, Peterphuket said:

You are correct with "oh a dutchy" but to be honestly, I don't know why, however with your "aardlekschakelaar" you are a dutchy two.

Spot-on ????

 

12 hours ago, Peterphuket said:

First I have to say I was not aware about Crossy he have already things explained about the AVR, maybe it's because I place this item before looking on the forum to previous experiences, that is my fault.

Nothing wrong with making a new thread, sometime old threads are old news and in the time being information -and- regulations can change.  Which would be only told of in the new thread.

 

12 hours ago, Peterphuket said:

I understand a second box could be a good solution but a lot of extra work but worth considering.

As you can see in the next two pictures, a safetycutswitch, and a mainswitch (not a knife one, but what's in a name)

Right, I did overlook that bolt and metalic background in the photo in your first post. Now just with the knowledge of the metal case, an second box would indeed take extra work and perhaps even harder/uncomfortable for the wiring.

 

12 hours ago, Peterphuket said:

Also you can see the white and yellow wires are gone to the pilot lamp.

Also your suggestion for three groups are an good idee, but everything can be protected so two groups can also suffice.

Seen the situation, you have space for a replacement box perhaps 48 cm?  I just read your post about ThaiWatsadu, it could come handy to have the measured data of your metal casing with you and measure the boxes they offer.

 

12 hours ago, Peterphuket said:

I don't understand the difference between a square box and NON square box, also the mounted switches are  with a din-rail, I think so.

See the 2 pictures.

Explained briefly in my previous post.

 

12 hours ago, Peterphuket said:

Best regards,

Peter

 

   

The white/yellow wires was for the pilot light, feels safer then 'tapping' for an unprotected socket ????

 

 

Some added marks for you or who want to rewire: I noticed that two wires were laid reversed (L and N) or the installer was out of his red wire and used white in the house and 'fixed' in the box by taping a red wire to the end of the white wire.

This would give a no working 'socket' , or high wattage peripheral (thick wire as we can see) when that red part was lost by cutting off and then the wire connected on the neutral bar giving a N+N link.

And the wire for the pilot light I hope that it is an VSF (flexible) wire as a one core copper wire are not liking repeating moving (in this case 90 degrees) and possible piercing the insulation and the metal casing can be live and unprotected too.

A flexible wire and spiral does the right job.

 

 

Don't hesitate to ask, that's what this group is for.

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

10 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

It isn’t really very much extra work since you need to separate the high power items (showers etc.) that should not be on the AVR from the ones that should. A second box makes the separation easy to manage.

 

Square D is a brand name and @Metropolitan seems to have missed the point that your current box is a DIN rail one with mostly Square D DIN rail breakers.

 

Square D is commonly associated with non DIN rail breakers 

 

 

My eyes are not what they used to be, I mistook the black top casing for a bus bar so assumed (sometimes not a good idea) a din rail box. Sorry.

[Peterphuket]

7 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

My eyes are not what they used to be, I mistook the black top casing for a bus bar so assumed (sometimes not a good idea) a din rail box. Sorry.

No problem at all, I'm happy with any advice I get here on this forum.

[Peterphuket]

8 hours ago, Metropolitian said:

Spot-on ????

 

Nothing wrong with making a new thread, sometime old threads are old news and in the time being information -and- regulations can change.  Which would be only told of in the new thread.

 

Right, I did overlook that bolt and metalic background in the photo in your first post. Now just with the knowledge of the metal case, an second box would indeed take extra work and perhaps even harder/uncomfortable for the wiring.

 

Seen the situation, you have space for a replacement box perhaps 48 cm?  I just read your post about ThaiWatsadu, it could come handy to have the measured data of your metal casing with you and measure the boxes they offer.

 

Explained briefly in my previous post.

 

The white/yellow wires was for the pilot light, feels safer then 'tapping' for an unprotected socket ????

 

 

Some added marks for you or who want to rewire: I noticed that two wires were laid reversed (L and N) or the installer was out of his red wire and used white in the house and 'fixed' in the box by taping a red wire to the end of the white wire.

This would give a no working 'socket' , or high wattage peripheral (thick wire as we can see) when that red part was lost by cutting off and then the wire connected on the neutral bar giving a N+N link.

And the wire for the pilot light I hope that it is an VSF (flexible) wire as a one core copper wire are not liking repeating moving (in this case 90 degrees) and possible piercing the insulation and the metal casing can be live and unprotected too.

A flexible wire and spiral does the right job.

 

 

Don't hesitate to ask, that's what this group is for.

 

 

Thank you "Metropolitian" after considering the whole thing I think it is the most easy to go for a bigger AVR but I searching for a one with variac and not with relais.

Here in Thailand it is difficult to find, I see a nice one on Ali (Delixi TND-15/20KVA) but the hassel with transport costs and import duty...I wonder is there nobody in Thailand who import this one?

 

So, if I mounting a bigger one, I can keep the old box, however I always have to connect all the groups together.

 

About the installer, I send him away, it was like many other craftsmen in this country, they know everything, but at the end it is big sh*t.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 minute ago, Peterphuket said:

No problem at all, I'm happy with any advice I get here on this forum.

Thanks, I still support a second box

 

these are:

top; incoming supply with 2 separate feeds from it 1 for the house the other for the workshop and exterior power

 

centre 2; workshop RCCB, Lightning protection, Time switches, over under voltage protection, multiple MCBs

bottom; RCCB, time switch, external power and lights

 

In the house half we have another 2 CUs so while we haven’t bothered with a generator and so far not needed an AVR it would not take much to add either or both

[Peterphuket]

3 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Thanks, I still support a second box

 

these are:

top; incoming supply with 2 separate feeds from it 1 for the house the other for the workshop and exterior power

 

centre 2; workshop RCCB, Lightning protection, Time switches, over under voltage protection, multiple MCBs

bottom; RCCB, time switch, external power and lights

 

In the house half we have another 2 CUs so while we haven’t bothered with a generator and so far not needed an AVR it would not take much to add either or both

That looks nice.

No a generator is also for me not an solution. To much maintenace and not so much powerfailure.

An under/over voltage protector, I bought it once but I don't use it, as I mention before with a neighbour with a big weldingtransformer, the protector switched in excess.

[Crossy]

2 hours ago, Peterphuket said:

Here in Thailand it is difficult to find, I see a nice one on Ali (Delixi TND-15/20KVA) but the hassel with transport costs and import duty...I wonder is there nobody in Thailand who import this one?

 

Global House keep them in various ratings, mostly variac based in the bigger sizes, see my thread for rough pricing.

 

Your local electrical outlet should be able to get for you, it's not like they are rocking horse droppings ????

 

[Metropolitian]

2 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Thanks, I still support a second box

And so am I. If just the OP didn't had that big metal casing around the unit.

 

2 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

 

these are:

top; incoming supply with 2 separate feeds from it 1 for the house the other for the workshop and exterior power

centre 2; workshop RCCB, Lightning protection, Time switches, over under voltage protection, multiple MCBs

bottom; RCCB, time switch, external power and lights

In the house half we have another 2 CUs so while we haven’t bothered with a generator and so far not needed an AVR it would not take much to add either or both

Nice to see that I am not the only 'excentric' person doing this ????

The same situation here, with 3 consumer units and other 2 at the first floor.

Newer units (to replace a old 4 gang Square D..) and for the workshop and exterior are still on the bench, a 'smartmeter' just came in last week rounding up the collection of surge arresters, meters, switches, lcd display same as yours on the top and it all will be setup very soon.

Additional input power are from the solar cells waiting for the rail to be mounted on the rooftop, one CU is for the DC part of the house.

 

This all will be posted in a new thread when finished.

 

Just that Volt Amp monitor... ????

Mine is for watching the aircon consumption.

Found out this way the 'dry' (2.1amp) mode instead of 'cool' (4amp) mode gives me the best balance between cool air and price.

 

 

 

[Peterphuket]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

 

Global House keep them in various ratings, mostly variac based in the bigger sizes, see my thread for rough pricing.

 

Your local electrical outlet should be able to get for you, it's not like they are rocking horse droppings ????

 

The bigest one I can see on the website of GH is this one: VEG-spanningsregelaar AVR SVC-D10000VA Zwart

[Crossy]

Just now, Peterphuket said:

The bigest one I can see on the website of GH is this one: VEG-spanningsregelaar AVR SVC-D10000VA Zwart

 

Our VEG 20kVA unit came from Global, I've found their website rather less than accurate / complete in the past ????

 

[Peterphuket]

Okay, Thai styl we will say.

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, Metropolitian said:

Just that Volt Amp monitor... ????

Mine is for watching the aircon consumption.

Found out this way the 'dry' (2.1amp) mode instead of 'cool' (4amp) mode gives me the best balance between cool air and price.

Unfortunately the bottom easy to read V A meter decided not to read Amps, so I’ve got the top one that you can only read if you are less than a metre from it, which isn’t easy to do owing to sheet goods storage, so not as useful as it could be.

[Peterphuket]

Hello Guys,

 

Today I got my AVR oredered at Lazada.

 

To be sure I order the 20KVA. Tomorrow I like to visit Watsadu to buy some connection cable etc.

Am I correct to buy 8mm diameter cable, in accordance with 50mm2 = 192A = 85kW

The max. length is not more then 250cm

[Crossy]

You need at least 10mm² cable, 16mm² would be better but is much more difficult to handle.

 

It is VITAL that you get L and N correctly connected, the AVR is one of the pieces of equipment that is polarity sensitive.

 

[Peterphuket]

Hello Crossy,

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

To be clear 4mm diameter is 12,64 mm2 is 10mm2 not to small?

I am usually very precise, but I thank you for the extra comment about changing L and neutral.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Peterphuket

[bankruatsteve]

39 minutes ago, Peterphuket said:

Hello Crossy,

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

To be clear 4mm diameter is 12,64 mm2 is 10mm2 not to small?

I am usually very precise, but I thank you for the extra comment about changing L and neutral.

10mm² will be good.  Don't worry.

[Peterphuket]

24 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

10mm² will be good.  Don't worry.

Thanks for your reply.

[Crossy]

10 hours ago, Peterphuket said:

To be clear 4mm diameter is 12,64 mm2 is 10mm2 not to small?

I am usually very precise, but I thank you for the extra comment about changing L and neutral.

 

10mm² THW is good for 67A or so in free air, and you could go well over that for short times (10s of minutes) without causing issues.

 

If you read my pinned thread on installing an AVR you'll see that I used 4 x 2.5mm² wires in parallel for the extra flexibility (ease of installation). Using separate smaller wires actually gives a theoretical maximum of >100A.

 

What size meter and incoming breaker do you have?

 

If at all possible wire things so your water heaters DON'T go via the AVR, they don't need it and the input currents can get frightening as the supply goes lower.

 

 

 

[Peterphuket]

The incoming breaker is 63A, the kwh-meter see picture.

I bought 10mm2 cable, and finish the whole stuff.

I don't keep the boiler seperated to much work, when `I get troubles I can still change it.

See pictures.

Everybody thanks for help and advice.

[farmerjo]

13 hours ago, Crossy said:

If at all possible wire things so your water heaters DON'T go via the AVR, they don't need it and the input currents can get frightening as the supply goes lower.

Can you explain that for us laymen Crossy????.

Are you saying the mains cable will get extremely hot back to meter?