Tourist Killed At “full Moon” Party

[cdnvic]

So if you think Thais are a bunch of animals, why live here? Got a Jane Goodall complex?

Your comments are incorrect, and that doesn't speak well for how much thinking you've done over those ten long years. In fact you seem to be gripping onto those ten years as if they excuse a lack of intelligent insight and condone ignorance. They don't, and your insulting statement comparing Thais to animals just shows how unfit you are to live here.

[Scaramanga]

Spitting in someones face (if true), is not the sort of thing people walk around doing randomly. It will likely have been a reaction to something that happened moments before, usually insulting or disrespectful in nature, and is probably not the start of this situation but just a stage in its escalation. It's also likely that this information has filtered through to this forum via the Thai grapevine, which is hardly known for it's accuracy or impartiality.

But it doesn't really matter who started it, the only issue here is one of people who walk around carrying knives, looking for trouble and who are prepared to use it to murder someone. In this case that is one or more of the Thais involved. Hopefully the increased reporting of such incidents involving tourists in Thailand is not indicative of an increasing trend.

[toptuan]

...what it is about is that he was brutally murdered in public over something very trivial.

That comment is grossly ethnocentric and totally out of touch with the host culture. Spitting your beer in a Thai person's face (drunk or not) is NOT something trivial.

[JimmyTheMook]

...what it is about is that he was brutally murdered in public over something very trivial.

That comment is grossly ethnocentric and totally out of touch with the host culture. Spitting your beer in a Thai person's face (drunk or not) is NOT something trivial.

Nor is being stabbed to death over it.

[AlexLah]

Me too first I was thinking, yep this is Thailand and we have to accept that some Thai people react like that (killing someone easy).

But when longer thinking about it I also think that there is something completely wrong with it.

OK I disagree with spitting beer on someones face for whatever reason, but I also disagree with killing someone for that reason.

On the other hand you could ask yourself what could be the trigger for you to kill someone?

Someone killing one of your family members?

Someone killing your friend?

Someone breaking in to your house?

Someone invading your country?

Where is your border?

In a land where most natives say they follow Buddhist practices I observe there are many examples where this is not the case.......

Give it a thought....

Alex

[terry57]

Don't pick fights with Thai, they can't deal with reasoned negotiation unless they are guaranteed success.

Well put , it is like dealing with a dumb animal.

maybe we have understood your quote there jimmy.

do you really think that the thai people are dumb animals. ?

and if you do, why?

thank you very much.

i think if we rewind this thread we all disagree with what has happenned to the israili but can understand it.

lets forget the israili aspect and realise it would of happened to any nationality that committed the said act regardless whether one was wright or wrong.

many people have commented on the israili's because of past experiences but the nationality is irrelevant

it is the said act that caused the unreasonable response.

To me it has nothing to do with the fact the person was from Israel, what it is about is that he was brutally murdered in public over something very trivial.

The whole supporting the Thai's actions leading up to this is absurd , it was the actions of a bunch of animals.

Unfortunately there are those who seem to try to justify or even condone these animal actions.

Not looking to debate this issue , as I actually live here and see more and more of this attitude every day, it is a sad reality.

i think you are barking up the wrong tree as i have not read one post where someone has condoned the actions of the thai killers.

all the post are saying they dont agree with what happenned but can understand how this happenned.

you seem to not be able to grasp this concept.

if you live here one would think you would have a better understanding as to why this happenned considering you are living in thailand and not some western country.

its certainly not unusual and one must live with this reality if one chooses to remain in thailand.

[Pattaya_Fox]

Please keep this thread on topic.

Personal attacks and any flaming will result in holidays being awarded.

Thanks.

[terry57]

i thought it was absolutly sensational, justice had been done and a lesson in respect had been delivered in an unmistakable manner to the said person.

I wonder how many other people that hitman used his gun on to get his own way, and I further wonder if it was all so 'justified'. Don't get carried away respecting the wrong people Terence, it's nice when it works in your favour but beware the one day it might not.

its not my problem maddy as i dont play silly games with thai locals.

i think it would be very unusual for a hit to be carried out on an innocent farang as it costs money to get the deed done.

there is usually a vendetta going regards drugs, women and bar ownership.

the average punter has nothing to fear.

we have a good mafia going in australia but they only kill drug dealers.

not worried about me.

and just to keep on topic ive never seen anyone spit in someones face as its bad manners.

and what planet did you just drop off,we have good mafia they only kill

and hit men to boot youve seen an awfull lot in your short life

would like to see your passport

one must face facts dave, and realise that the mafia operate in every country on this earth.

it is also a fact that the average punter will never come in contact with mafia as they tend not to go around killing the innocent public.

this is fact and the only people that come in contact are the people involved in slippery business or happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

thank you very much.

and to keep on topic, never spit in the face of mafiosa.

you've attacked me for stating the truth and from experience.

[AlexLah]

Quote: its certainly not unusual and one must live with this reality if one chooses to remain in Thailand.

I for one did not choose to stay in this country.

Yep, my company decided it was best for me to stay here.

Anyway, again I say some of Thai people I find them hypocrit (I dunno how to spell sorry).

Saying they are practicing Budhism but in real they are open to bribes and loose temper quickly.

When you adress this you get the Thai smile and no answers.

It is time for the Thai people to open up and not stick to 'their' culture whatever it means.

Alex

[StickKettleOn]

Ummmm.

This is such a tricky one to call. However I find myself calling this initialy, i form a new opinion seconds later.

Isreal guys, in my opinion are extremely unlikable. I used to run a bar, and the sole nationality that i grew to despise was this lot. I came to Thailand open minded, having no clue as to the good or bad of these people. After just 6 months, i grew to hate them. They are foul. We English often get a bad press.... but this lot - horrible people. After 6 months, i had to put a sign on the bar saying 'one drink per person - not one drink for one group'. Explaining to this lot that i only had a small bar and the seats needed spending customers resulted in nothing but aggresive questioning, to put it mildly. I refused to serve them in the end. I flat out refused to alow them into my bar.

That said.... regardless of how horrible and rude you are, no one deserves to get stabbed to death for falling out with a guy in a pub.

Then again....what the hel_l was he thinking spitting in his face? There are not many more insultive things you can do. And in a pub? In the early hours when everyone is tanked up? I hate to say - they guy asked for it. Would i stab a guy if he spat on my face? No. Am i suprised? No. Did he deserve it? No. But he asked for it. The <deleted>. Im sorry.... but the guy is clearly a <deleted>. Spitting in a Thai guys face in the early hours when drunk - you stupid farking <deleted>. What where you thinking?

Then again....

Who knows what the Thai guy said to the Isreal guy? For all we know, he may have crept up behind him and whispered in his ear 'Im going to do your sister tonight' Or 'Your Mum is a whore'. Who knows?

This is why i cant draw a complete conclusion here. My first impresion is that this guy is a <deleted> who asked for it. However, we dont know what lead to him doing such a stupid thing.

I dunno.

Who knows?

[sbk]

Lets all bear in mind the forum rules when posting please.

And one of those rules is that excessively negative comments about Thais or Thailand are not allowed.

IMO comparing Thai people to animals is just exactly the kind of negative comment that is not allowed on this board. Any further such references will result in suspensions, is that clear?

The facts as reported are that the Israeli got into a fight and got killed. Rumors are swirling around and yes, the spitting in the face is hearsay, but pretty reliable hearsay. But, to be honest, there are alot of drunken idiots on Hadrin beach and the guys who work there are used to dealing with this kind of crap day after day. It would have taken far more than a simple snide comment to push one of them into killing.

A few years ago a girl told me she saw some guy get bottled by a barman, but this was after the drunk farang guy had repeatedly gone behind the bar and tried to walk off with the alcohol. She said he did it at least fifteen times, for at least an hour before the barman had finally had enough.

[bkkmadness]

Tax I know about the soi cowboy thing, I read your post a couple of years ago when it happened but you keep churning out this bit of advice and it sticks in my throat a bit. I've drunk with many a group of Thai males, strangers and from all sorts of backgrounds. I've never been attacked because I never spat a drink in their face. If you walked into a pub in the UK and spat a drink in someone's face you can expect a stabbing too.

there are thai males and there are thai males , and obviously not all thai males who drink are going to kill you.

bkkmadness , you know the country and have had enough experience here to judge situations and the people you sit down with.

but for those people who are new to the country , for those who cant recognise the various "species" of males that frequent drinking places , and for those who cant tell the difference between the different kind of drinking places there are out there i would say my advice is valid .

in the same way that a newcomer to say , the uk , would be unable to judge the type of pub he was entering , or the type of person drinking there , until perhaps it is too late.

there are times when a lot less of an insult than spitting beer in someones face can get you a beating from a drunk youth with a chip on his shoulder and a group to impress. in any country.

I didn't always have experience of the country though Taxexile, and even in those times I was alright. I put this down to my experience in my own country, which is an experience that most visitors would have had and that is when you combine certain men and alcohol, tempers can fly and violence follows. It's the nature of the drug and it's the nature of men and that makes it a universal truth in my book so I can't agree why you need to advise to specifically avoid drunk Thai men.

Dodgy characters are dodgy characters wherever you find them in the world and I would guess that most people know to avoid them whatever country they are in and no matter how much experience they have there.

I'd say there is some validity in your point if you are advising someone who has lived a more sheltered life and perhaps has never come across the drink/violence relationship as much, but for most it's well known. I'd say there is a validity in your point also that most western visitors can't read see the red flags here with drunk Thais as well as they might see them with drunk farangs.

But I find a couple of flaws in your advice.

it should be never , ever drink or associate with groups of thai males who are drinking unless you know them or are familiar with their class and their background.

1. On this thread for example it was probably the case that the Israelis were not drinking with the Thais just in the same bar, in which case would your advice to avoid drinking in any bar that has drunk Thai males in it? Because that's going to be a hard to avoid.

2. Class doesn't matter so much in this country I think when it comes to violence, and I assume you was making the point that the lower classes will often be quicker with violence?

Sure in the UK I would say that you was drinking in a middle class pub you would less likely get a problem than if you was drinking in a working class pub but here there's another element to factor in.

The higher class of Thais are often above the law, they will be just as quick to give a farang a beating because when they mention the family's name the police don't arrest them. You could add that they can afford to get away with breaking the law easier because they can pay the fine and walk free no matter what they have done.

Look at that policeman that was shot dead at Club 20 in Ratchada several years back by a politician's son, would a low class Thai guy have shot a policemen dead? Very much doubt it. But this guy did because he thought (and I think did!) he could walk away without any punishment. I think I read a follow up to this dude when he gave some farang a beating in RCA but can't confirm, it's in the news clippings here somewhere, happened about 2 years back I think.

So that's just a couple of points I think you should look at Tax although I know you will stand by your advice because no doubt that kicking to death you saw at the cowboy has effected you. (Not said in a patronising way BTW).

[65Craig]

if there is one piece of advice that every tourist , and , it would seem , especially israeli tourists ,should be given as they pass through the airport here into thailand , it should be never , ever drink or associate with groups of thai males who are drinking unless you know them or are familiar with their class and their background.

Tax I know about the soi cowboy thing, I read your post a couple of years ago when it happened but you keep churning out this bit of advice and it sticks in my throat a bit. I've drunk with many a group of Thai males, strangers and from all sorts of backgrounds. I've never been attacked because I never spat a drink in their face. If you walked into a pub in the UK and spat a drink in someone's face you can expect a stabbing too.

I read the article posted here as well as several other places and I don't ever remember them saying the Israeli guy spit a drink in a Thai's face. This is being reported via a member of this forum as something this guys friend said happened. Until that is documented, it's all really speculation, and should be taken as such until it's proven to be fact. And if it does prove the case, many of you are making out like the guy got what he deserved. To me there's a large difference from a beat down (maybe a broken nose, jaw, ribs) and a brutal stabbing death. Unless the Israeli guy pulled out a weapon himself, there is no justification for such actions.

As for Israeli people being rude. Yeah, I've experienced rudeness by some of it's citizens, I'm just not feeling the whole slanted angle that maybe this guy deserved what he got. Like I said, nobody would deserve death for this. Maybe it's because I'm from ultra-liberal Berkeley, but I'm failing to see why the mention of Israeli's being cheap and rude has any relevence to this at all.

[terry57]

Quote: its certainly not unusual and one must live with this reality if one chooses to remain in Thailand.

I for one did not choose to stay in this country.

Yep, my company decided it was best for me to stay here.

Anyway, again I say some of Thai people I find them hypocrit (I dunno how to spell sorry).

Saying they are practicing Budhism but in real they are open to bribes and loose temper quickly.

When you adress this you get the Thai smile and no answers.

It is time for the Thai people to open up and not stick to 'their' culture whatever it means.

Alex

i would'nt get to hung up on it alex,

as these personality faults occur in most farang countries as well, so one must take thai people as one finds them.

i think its a silly concept to think they are all good but on the other hand they are not all bad.

much the same as the rest of us id say.

and to stay on topic never ever spit in there face.

[davidjtayler]

It is also pertinent to remember that once a month Hadrin attracts a huge populus for the full moon and the parties that go with it ... this in itself means you will have thousands of drunken and/or pharmaceutically impaired people (farang and Thai) ... bit like a tropical hotpot !

With this volatile combination it is actually surprising that more incidents of this kind don't occur than do/have already.

[Brutiniero]

Ok,

if the story is true, the Israeli did wrong and paid dearly - at least he should had to keep in mind that he isn't at home. Nothing to debate else.

What made my fanny clinch is that you (Mr. Badman) had to include your hero story about the Thai hitman (bad taste in my opinion in a treath like this).

Secondly that your arguments are very naive and that you didn't realize that after this small favour you owe em .......

Bye

[terry57]

if there is one piece of advice that every tourist , and , it would seem , especially israeli tourists ,should be given as they pass through the airport here into thailand , it should be never , ever drink or associate with groups of thai males who are drinking unless you know them or are familiar with their class and their background.

Tax I know about the soi cowboy thing, I read your post a couple of years ago when it happened but you keep churning out this bit of advice and it sticks in my throat a bit. I've drunk with many a group of Thai males, strangers and from all sorts of backgrounds. I've never been attacked because I never spat a drink in their face. If you walked into a pub in the UK and spat a drink in someone's face you can expect a stabbing too.

I read the article posted here as well as several other places and I don't ever remember them saying the Israeli guy spit a drink in a Thai's face. This is being reported via a member of this forum as something this guys friend said happened. Until that is documented, it's all really speculation, and should be taken as such until it's proven to be fact. And if it does prove the case, many of you are making out like the guy got what he deserved. To me there's a large difference from a beat down (maybe a broken nose, jaw, ribs) and a brutal stabbing death. Unless the Israeli guy pulled out a weapon himself, there is no justification for such actions.

As for Israeli people being rude. Yeah, I've experienced rudeness by some of it's citizens, I'm just not feeling the whole slanted angle that maybe this guy deserved what he got. Like I said, nobody would deserve death for this. Maybe it's because I'm from ultra-liberal Berkeley, but I'm failing to see why the mention of Israeli's being cheap and rude has any relevence to this at all.

can you please show me a post where someone has said that this guy deserved to die. ?

most are saying they can understand how it happenned, thats all.

[bkkmadness]

i thought it was absolutly sensational, justice had been done and a lesson in respect had been delivered in an unmistakable manner to the said person.

I wonder how many other people that hitman used his gun on to get his own way, and I further wonder if it was all so 'justified'. Don't get carried away respecting the wrong people Terence, it's nice when it works in your favour but beware the one day it might not.

its not my problem maddy as i dont play silly games with thai locals.

i think it would be very unusual for a hit to be carried out on an innocent farang as it costs money to get the deed done.

there is usually a vendetta going regards drugs, women and bar ownership.

the average punter has nothing to fear.

we have a good mafia going in australia but they only kill drug dealers.

not worried about me.

and just to keep on topic ive never seen anyone spit in someones face as its bad manners.

Terence I'm not talking about 'hits' I'm talking about a Thai guy who threatens a farang with a gun to get his way when it isn't necessary. I'm just not sure why you respect this guy so much for dealing out this 'justice' and to be fair, it seems you do the way you trot out the story (twice in this thread alone).

It's nice to think it's all about women, bars and drugs because it makes you think that it can never happen to you, but the reality is that it isn't. To say the average punter has nothing to fear and will never be on the wrong end of a Thai with a gun is naive. Ask those two backpackers in Kanchanburi a couple of years back, well actually you can't.

[AlexLah]

Hi Terry,

Please look up a previous post of me on this subject and you will know how I feel about this.

[ourmanflint]

To all those that believe that Thailand will never change, may I remind you that there once was a time when no Thai however offended would dare to attack and kill a tourist.

So yes, Thailand has already changed and IMHO it can change again, it just needs a nudge in the right direction from within.

I don't want to give up on that hope just yet..

[terry57]

Ok,

if the story is true, the Israeli did wrong and paid dearly - at least he should had to keep in mind that he isn't at home. Nothing to debate else.

What made my fanny clinch is that you (Mr. Badman) had to include your hero story about the Thai hitman (bad taste in my opinion in a treath like this).

Secondly that your arguments are very naive and that you didn't realize that after this small favour you owe em .......

Bye

im sorry mate but you have you been drinking.

im having a little trouble comprehending your post but i got the hitman bit.

i feel my hitman story is very important when we get a thread like this cranked up.

many peole dont quite understand the mind set of the thai and my little true story gives an insight to what really goes on in thailand.

anybody who knows thailand knows i speak the truth and this is an everyday fact of life.

it relates to the killing of the israeli, as it shows how cheap life can be in thailand and could possibly save someones life by driving home the importance of being a good tourist or expat for that fact.

thank you very much.

[sbk]

To all those that believe that Thailand will never change, may I remind you that there once was a time when no Thai however offended would dare to attack and kill a tourist.

So yes, Thailand has already changed and IMHO it can change again, it just needs a nudge in the right direction from within.

I don't want to give up on that hope just yet..

Quite the optimist eh? Nice to see but extremely unrealistic when considering human nature. Please name me one country that does not have murder. I don't think its possible and as long as we are human, we are going to kill each other.

[terry57]

i thought it was absolutly sensational, justice had been done and a lesson in respect had been delivered in an unmistakable manner to the said person.

I wonder how many other people that hitman used his gun on to get his own way, and I further wonder if it was all so 'justified'. Don't get carried away respecting the wrong people Terence, it's nice when it works in your favour but beware the one day it might not.

its not my problem maddy as i dont play silly games with thai locals.

i think it would be very unusual for a hit to be carried out on an innocent farang as it costs money to get the deed done.

there is usually a vendetta going regards drugs, women and bar ownership.

the average punter has nothing to fear.

we have a good mafia going in australia but they only kill drug dealers.

not worried about me.

and just to keep on topic ive never seen anyone spit in someones face as its bad manners.

Terence I'm not talking about 'hits' I'm talking about a Thai guy who threatens a farang with a gun to get his way when it isn't necessary. I'm just not sure why you respect this guy so much for dealing out this 'justice' and to be fair, it seems you do the way you trot out the story (twice in this thread alone).

It's nice to think it's all about women, bars and drugs because it makes you think that it can never happen to you, but the reality is that it isn't. To say the average punter has nothing to fear and will never be on the wrong end of a Thai with a gun is naive. Ask those two backpackers in Kanchanburi a couple of years back, well actually you can't.

your on my page maddy but just not reading the same line as me, so lets get this sorted once and for all.

i dont respect the hitman but respect the fact that he has a gun and is not afraid to use it.

in the seven years i was with my thai partner, that was the only time he called this guy that i know off, but he was very real.

in reality the hit man saved a heap of trouble as my thai partner had a short fuse and this incident could of got very ugly if it was allowed to go on.

thats why i say that it was a win win situation and i hope you can understand that point.

as far as innocent people getting shot by thais, this happens in australia as well so its not a concern to me.

its unusual for an innocent person to get shot and in most cases there is more to it, but i accept your point that it does happen some times.

as far as kanchanburi goes the two farangs were pissed up with a drunken cop so thats putting ones self in danger strait up.

a senseless killing that could of been avoided if the two people had more experience with thailand.

hope you realise what im on about maddy.

thank you very much.

[bkkmadness]

Ok Terence I have got your point, perhaps if you don't trot the story out every 5 minutes it will not look like you was so impressed by it.

a senseless killing that could of been avoided if the two people had more experience with thailand.

With regards to this, unless you can tell me you know otherwise (which is impossible!) I suggest you just shut up. Just for once in your life try it Terry, just stop typing and realise you don't know everything about Thailand. I certainly don't and could never justify myself saying that.

It's very disrespectful to say if those two people had been more experienced they wouldn't have been killed when you don't know that for a fact.

Edited April 2, 2007 by bkkmadness

[terry57]

To all those that believe that Thailand will never change, may I remind you that there once was a time when no Thai however offended would dare to attack and kill a tourist.

So yes, Thailand has already changed and IMHO it can change again, it just needs a nudge in the right direction from within.

I don't want to give up on that hope just yet..

when was that flint?

when there was no falang in thailand i imagine.

i live in a supposidly civilised country and people get killed every day.

believe it or not i feel much safer walking around in bangkok at night than i do in downtown perth.

[AlexLah]

Hi Terry,

Oh my Goth (see other thread) you must be so proud knowing a 'hitman'.

And the feeling you must have had when your 'brave' husband called in to him to help.

Would you be Ok when your 'Hitman' had shot that person?

I first thought you where Ok, but I have my doubts now Terry

take care,

Alex

[65Craig]

anybody who knows anything about thailand knows that this is the quickest way to be possibly murdered for your stupid actions. ( spitting in a thais face.)

And can you show me any proof that this 32 year old Israeli spit in a Thai's face?

Like I said this is speculation, by someone on the forum who had a friend who was SUPPOSEDLY there. And let's pretend this friend was in fact there. Was this guy in proximity of the incident to actually see and hear what was going on? Was this person witness to everything before and after? I mean how reliable is this so-called friend (How many drinks did he have)? Say the Israeli guy really did spit in the face of a Thai, was this the Israeli who even got stabbed?

Also, none of you are mentioning this: "The suspects include the son of a local politician, who has a bad reputation for bothering foreigners." Sounds to me like this guy has had problems in the past, yet most of you seem to be saying (maybe not condoning) that the Israeli kind of got what he had coming to him. Who's to say the a Thai guy didn't provoke the whole mess. Because right now I haven't read a single article stating that anyone spit in anyone's face.

Maybe we should just wait until more facts on the matter come out before we judge too much. I think it's a very sad state when a disagreement (regardless of who started it) could lead to murder. Just glad my wife and I up here in Chiang Mai stay far away from the bars.

[terry57]

Ok Terence I have got your point, perhaps if you don't trot the story out every 5 minutes it will not look like you was so impressed by it.

a senseless killing that could of been avoided if the two people had more experience with thailand.

With regards to this, unless you can tell me you know otherwise (which is impossible!) I suggest you just shut up. Just for once in your life try it Terry, just stop typing and realise you don't know everything about Thailand. I certainly don't and could never justify myself saying that.

It's very disrespectful to say if those two people had been smarter they wouldn't have been killed when you don't know that for a fact.

i cant stop typing maddy as im on a roll and there's no rule that says im only allowed to post a certain amount of posts on this topic

your misquoting me maddy and thats not your usual style is it. as your usually quite consistant and rational.

you say smarter and i say more experienced and its a fact that this incident could of been avoided with a bit more caution on the part of the two farang.

drinking whisky to excess late at night with a drunken cop who then tried to touch up the female and that was what it was all over.

a person with a bit more experience might of made an early call to not get that smashed with a stranger.

sort of sounds familiar with the israeli dude reagards being more aware of what could happen.

both incidents are tragic and should never of happenned.

thank you very much maddy and i never think i know every thing about thailand but have had a few enlightening experiences over the years.

[JimmyTheMook]

I wasn't defending murder, but considering the level of thinking you showed with your "animals" comment I wouldn't expect you to have understood the entire post as I used a few big words.

Don't worry about it. It'll come to you someday. Back to your barstool

I live here with my family and do not drink or hang out in bars, but nice try.

I'll stop now as I have been issued a warning by SBK regarding my comments on this thread.

[sbk]

OK, enough with Terry's hitman story, please. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

And 65Craig, you can believe or disbelieve what I have heard, but my husband does know the "son of a local politician" and has never heard of him as being a known troublemaker. Doesn't say it hasn't happened but that the police speculate just as much as every farang on this board with what appears to be just as little information.

Remember the woman whose 5 year old son was murdered in Koh Samui and the police were sure it was the ex-boyfriend? And then, lo and behold, it turned out it wasn't the ex boyfriend after all! Amazing!

So, lets remember that none of us knows the whole story, I am reporting the bits I have heard, you can take them or not, as you like. But please remember that the police obviously don't know the whole story either. If they did, they would realize that the father isn't actually involved in local politics anymore anyway.