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2020: Crackdown on tourists working without work permits - 50K fines and deportation awaits


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15 hours ago, ChiangMaiNomad said:

it's worth knowing that you are contributing as a member of Thai society.

That means absolutely nothing. 
 

That makes you just as important as the first timer who just arrived and is headed straight for Nana Plaza. Makes zero difference, you’re still an outsider. Always will be.

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12 hours ago, NB1986 said:

Okay so lets assume soneone goes on 4 week Holiday to Thailand, he is Self Employed, like Trading Forex market, Commodities, or Website developer... Someone comes to Holiday and he decides to check about his work or fix something that is wrong... Thai Imm. come and Deports plus 50.000 THB fine for someone who came to holiday but his work is still so important that even in holidays need to be done. As everything in Thailand they should more specify who exactly is Illegal worker there... But as in 2019 even 2020 didnt came with any good news... As far as i saw while i was traveling across Europe people have opened their laptops and doing stock market trading in middle of Train stations, Mcdonalds i really dont see IMMIGRATION COME pack them up and deports them. They should make clear difference in this law between someone who have Company but dont register people who are working and between people who can manage their bussiness themselve even on their Laptop. But ofcourse, Visa crackdown is not in the mood anymore lets bring new stuff, basically all foreigners are criminals, either they overstay, or working illegaly taking jobs from Thai people, poor Thai people really... Everybody is so mean to them

Your confusing many topics.. 

 

1) Europe extends the right to work for a non european company until a tax liability has been incurred. Thailand operates a physical presence test solution, where tax liability starts on day 1 that work is performed. 

2) yes the businessman on holiday violates the letter of the law. It is of course possible to obtain a 15 day work permit exemption (almost no one does, but it shows the legal route) and it is exactly this which immigration (not the enforcers of labour law) have said 'we are not concerned with this', a comment which people who reside here for much longer periods have twisted and amplified. 

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9 hours ago, balo said:

Which people? The online Australian teacher?  He lived here for years.
And we had some Chinese that were operating illegally from private houses. 

I have not seen one case of a westerner working as a remote freelancer that has led to deportation. Staying on a tourist visa , lets say up to 6 months. 
 

How can it be 'legal' when that is the crime that people are charged, and deported for.. If they are here 6 months or 2 years, they were not charged with visa issues, they were on a legal visa and entry, they were not arrested and deported for any visa violation, they were charged with 'working without a work permit'. 

The chinese recently whose crime appears to be signing up for whatsapp accounts (how is that illegal ??) were all recent arrivals, less than 6 months charged with working without a work permit. 

 

You have to have the IQ of a brick, to claim something is actually legal, as in under law not lax enforcement, when multiple cases exist of people being arrested, charged and deported for the crime of 'working without a work permit' online. 

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On 1/8/2020 at 3:09 PM, balo said:

Exactly , it got nothing to do with remote freelancers who stay here only a few weeks or maximum 3 months. on normal tourist visas. 

 

Just so we are clear then.. 

Any digital nomad staying here longer than 3 months, and working online without a work permit.. Is breaking the law ??? 

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9 hours ago, DrTuner said:

You're Thai tax resident after 183days and are then supposed to pay the income tax here, unless the double taxation treaty says otherwise. I would venture to guess many pay no taxes at all. If the taxman got Capone, they'll get a "nomad".

 

If Thais ever get their <deleted> off their chairs, that is. It's a high probability they'll do sod all to enforce anything, I'd say about 90%. Good odds if you're a gambling man. The introduction of the OECD CRS might make things nastier in the future, as some checks could be automated.

Passive income is due after you become tax resident (and only on money brought into the kingdom in the year it is earned). 

Active income, income you perform work for, is due from day 1. 

I agree 100% on enforcement, we are talking about the law, not the way you can avoid getting caught. 

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9 hours ago, balo said:

Yes, so make sure to leave Thailand at least 4 times every year.  Not a problem when you're on a 1 year multi visa, you can come and go as you like.

If I hear about one case about arrests and deportation because of this l will reconsider, but so far I feel good about myself and the way I live.
The point is you can own a business and still live most of the year in Thailand , as long as you do not burn your bridges in your home country.  

 
 

Anyone who believe that to be legally true.. Lets prove who is right or wrong. 

 

Let me gather full evidence of your work, video and proof, the work, the location, the payments, your claims you do not need a work permit.. And lets report it to the labour dept. 

 

I mean, its legal right, they will agree with you, and say no you dont need a work permit to work online, and you win.... I mean, surely someone so confident of thier position will do this ?? 

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8 hours ago, dcnx said:

Many are stuck with families or a wife they can’t get out of here. Others don’t have the money. Many more are addicted to sex and/or alcohol and Thailand is ground zero for both. Some are employed. Some have a business. 
 

Lots of reasons why people don’t leave. It’s easy to see why the majority are here, simply look at any thread or news regarding a crackdown or changes to the price of alcohol or anything discussing prostitution. They are the most popular threads by far.

I think your missing the point.. How are those folks you describe 'nomads' in any way.. 

 

Idont argue that theres many 'digital tax evading residents'.. In fact thats a large part of my point, that these people are not short term casual visiting 'nomads' passing through. 

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8 hours ago, dcnx said:

Many are stuck with families or a wife they can’t get out of here. Others don’t have the money. Many more are addicted to sex and/or alcohol and Thailand is ground zero for both. Some are employed. Some have a business. 
 

Lots of reasons why people don’t leave. It’s easy to see why the majority are here, simply look at any thread or news regarding a crackdown or changes to the price of alcohol or anything discussing prostitution. They are the most popular threads by far.

 

It's very simple ; if the euro continues to plunge, my retirement will be less than 40,000 baht monthly;
it is on this sum that the Immigration offices in Khorat base themselves to grant me the annual extension of my "thai wife" visa.
There is no question that I stay here in overstay; so I will leave to go where?
Maybe in Laos where getting an annual visa is very easy;
  or in Vietnam; I think that having a son who has dual French and Vietnamese nationality, that could help .. (I don't know);
in any case I do not believe that I will return to France or to any European country.
I have lived here too long.

But if I leave, it will be with my retirement so my Thai family will find themselves penniless;
she will have a beautiful house which is starting to age and a beautiful pickup which is already 10 years old and not far from 200,000 km but not a baht for living.
thank you Prayuth and your friends for enjoying the baht more than it really is worth. :wacko:

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14 minutes ago, Assurancetourix said:

thank you Prayuth and your friends for enjoying the baht more than it really is worth. :wacko:

Another economics graduate I see.. 

 

Please explain by what mechanism the Thai government is pushing up the baht ?? 

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6 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Another economics graduate I see.. 

 

Please explain by what mechanism the Thai government is pushing up the baht ?? 

I am not an economist but you do not have to be a great clerk to know some of them.

And "we" can be helped by some billionaire like Soros ...
It's one of his habits, manipulating currencies to get richer.

 

A very simple way to return the baht to its fair value:
do like the National Bank of Switzerland:
negative rates

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Its simple.. Thailand has a huge part of its economy driven by tourism.. Direct foreign exchange.. Secondly it is a excessively large exporter, car parts, fish products, agri products (chicken, shrimp etc) etc etc etc.. Again direct foreign exchange. This is happening at a far higher ratio in relation to domestic consumption than in other more resilient economies. 

That foreign exchange means Thailand is running a massive current account surplus, and is sitting on huge non THB currency reserves. This in turn is making Thailand seem a safe haven in the region to park funds. 

 

If they sell those reserves for THB, they drive the THB up.. Not down. 

 

If they operate more invisible solutions (forward currency swaps, etc etc) they risk being labelled a currency manipulator by the USA and having financial sanctions applied. 

 

All these are very simple direct cause and effect basic economics 101 that anyone with an ounce of sense and observational skill should be able to see an understand.. Not Soros lizard people making us all poor levels of stupidity perhaps, but still.. 

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Easy enough to get a proper work permit/ Visa. In Pattaya the ones without work permits will not get the required assistance from there employer to get the permit/ visa. Or They simply decide to try to get around and some even dont know its required. This usually becomes a big deal when  many of them are taking Thai Jobs. Immigration laws clearly state  which jobs a foreigner cannot have.....every seen farang bar manager? chances are he has not work Visa, or the Guy running the Kebob stand On Soi Buakhao? Every walk by a Indian Tailoer shop and wonder if that bloke trying to sell you the cheap suit has a work permit?

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13 hours ago, balo said:

Yes, so make sure to leave Thailand at least 4 times every year.  Not a problem when you're on a 1 year multi visa, you can come and go as you like.

It's not consequent 183 days though, you need to stay out of Thailand for at least 173 days to not be automatically tax resident. In the case where you're not clearly tax resident anywhere, the countries where you've spent your time start to compete who gets the loot. Previously many have used this to escape taxes completely, but with the advent of automated sharing of your bank data it'll be far more difficult in the future. 

 

People are relying on the non-enforcement of laws to stay here and not pay tax. It's a pretty safe bet seeing how useless the police & co are here, but at least be honest about it. That said, we've already seen the tightening of immigration procedures, I don't see anything getting more lax as long as the usurpers are at helm.

Edited by DrTuner
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4 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Passive income is due after you become tax resident (and only on money brought into the kingdom in the year it is earned). 

Active income, income you perform work for, is due from day 1. 

Yes you are correct, you are also supposed to have a work permit if you work here. In some cases like US where taxation is from worldwide income double taxation treaties apply ( https://www.rd.go.th/publish/766.0.html ). The perpetual "nomads" very likely do not have a work permit nor do they pay Thai income taxes.

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On 1/6/2020 at 3:46 PM, john davis said:

If there is a crackdown on work permit why are Indian people selling watches on Nana plaza and soi 4 the road is full of Indian people pestering tourists selling watches and glasses does that mean farangs can now work without any permit

I asked this once about all the Indians in Pattaya with businesses, how they can do it. The answer was many of them are actually 2nd and third generation Thais, born here but of Indian origin obviously. Indians like Arabs don't tend to meld into foreign societies too much and stick to their own ways. This was only something I was told but seems to make sense

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On 1/6/2020 at 5:21 PM, Beggar said:

If you have a bar or restaurant for instance I would not do it. Enemies or competitors might report you. A friend of mine in Phuket even got reported by his own (unhappy) wife. She had some photos showing him working. 

Be interested to hear the follow up story to this. Did your friend actually get prosecuted? What happens? Do you have any legal process or the opportunity to engage a lawyer to defend yourself? Or a slap on the wrist first or straight off to the IDC and back home. It's horrible thought particularly if you were not guilty. What happens to your belongings etc? Many of us here have everything we own in the world in our Thailand homes. Wives, kids. If it simply appears you are in the wrong are you whisked away? 

 

I heard someone say the other day you have very little recourse and in some cases your belongings confiscated. Understandable if you were doing something particularly illegal, other than just sitting in a bar helping your missus out or picking up some items for her local shop or something. Does anyone have first hand knowledge? How did your friend get on? Must be many nasty, disgruntled exes here calling immigration daily.

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On 1/6/2020 at 7:12 PM, Nanaplaza666 said:

It's funny how all of you automaticly think only about white foreigners that will be saught after that are here on tourist or retirement visa's or whatever . This is for a great part going to be counting for companies having laos or myanmar or beurmese staff . Must find yourselfs very important then huh . 

I agree. It worries me a little as soon as things like this come out we all start slagging off and belittling the Thai authorities. People talking about getting caught for hanging out the washing, or selling a used phone on Facebook, doing a bit of DIY at home. These are all worst case scenario type things that may be technically in breach of the law but I think on the whole the Thais are fairly reasonable and apply common sense. It appears to be us farang who are blowing things out of proportion and being ridiculous, not the Thais. Like how many of these ridiculous cases have actually happened or are we just speculating / scare mongering? I don't think it does any of us any good to ridicule people that we need on our side and for the most part seem to be extremely reasonable and tolerant, probably more tolerant than authorities in our own countries. Wasn't there a similar blow up last year (or year before?) where there was a big crackdown. Netted 2000-3000 Indo illegal immigrants and 3 farang, all who were wanted on other matters.

 

My take on the initial story OP would seem to be targeting any one BUT Euro Farangs. Thailand is suffering a down turn in jobs at the moment. Many factories closing etc. The Minister for employment has to be seen doing something and there are literally 100's k Burmese / Laos / Viet etc workers here. The laughable thing is there are just as many Thais illegally working in countries like Korea, Taiwan, Japan etc. I know many Thai families here and most have a few of their members off working in other countries.

 

Give immigration a little more credit. I have been here for five years and never found them to be anything other than polite, friendly and helpful and above all reasonable. They don't seem to actively target people that I can see. Form the behaviour of some of the farang's I have seen in my IO I am surprised they do not despise us. 

Edited by Kenny202
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19 minutes ago, Kenny202 said:

Be interested to hear the follow up story to this. Did your friend actually get prosecuted?

They had a bar and a house together. Some photos showed him carrying beer boxes and doing other things in the bar. He got prosecuted. There were some cases like this. As foreign bar owner you were not even allowed to empty an ashtray or remove glasses. There were some very watchful competitors. 

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42 minutes ago, Beggar said:

They had a bar and a house together. Some photos showed him carrying beer boxes and doing other things in the bar. He got prosecuted. There were some cases like this. As foreign bar owner you were not even allowed to empty an ashtray or remove glasses. There were some very watchful competitors. 

I don't doubt your story, particularly in a bar situation where the authorities prosecuting quite possibly were his competitors. What I would be interested to know was what happened to him? You said he was prosecuted. Did he pay a fine? Was he detained or deported? If deported did he have the opportunity to finalise his affairs here? I mean in my situation I don't own property but would have at least 2 million baht in vehicles and assets. Also have a young Thai born son who currently doesn't have a passport (another story and currently working on it / need approval from his long gone mother). What do I do? Leave him here and abandon the other 2 Thais I support? (Girlfriend and her son) I mean in most of our cases something like this would be devastating 

Edited by Kenny202
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52 minutes ago, Kenny202 said:

 I don't think it does any of us any good to ridicule people that we need on our side and for the most part seem to be extremely reasonable and tolerant, probably more tolerant than authorities in our own countries.

I don't want them to be tolerant, I want them to be consistent. Which is why I'd like for the entire process of immigration/work permit/taxation/etc be fully automated without any Thais inbetween.

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7 minutes ago, Kenny202 said:

I don't doubt your story, particularly in a bar situation where the authorities prosecuting quite possibly were his competitors. What I would be interested to know was what happened to him? You said he was prosecuted. Did he pay a fine? Was he detained or deported? If deported did he have the opportunity to finalise his affairs here? I mean in my situation I don't own property but would have at least 2 million baht in vehicles and assets. Also have a young Thai born son who currently doesn't have a passport (another story and currently working on it / need approval from his long gone mother). What do I do? Leave him here and abandon the other 2 Thais I support? (Girlfriend and her son) I mean in most of our cases something like this would be devastating 

He was deported and moved back to Germany. I couldn't talk to him anymore. When I came back one day to Phuket he was gone and other people told me why. So I don't know in detail everything what happened. At this time (about 20 years ago) there were some bad stories. I never forget - one Farang was killed with his Samurai swords (he collected them). He too was married and had a house and a business there. And there was a lot of fighting between the bar owners. Now I live in Pattaya and I avoid the bar scene. I couldn't tell you one bad story. But I don't think that it is a paradise here. I simply don't get any information anymore. 

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On 1/6/2020 at 9:47 PM, BobinBKK said:

Don't get caught helping your Thai girlfriend or Thai friends speak English! And that goes for bar girls too. As psychotic as these laws are and the people that enforce them, a simple conversation in English with a Thai person can be spun into you teaching English!!!

What a ridiculous statement. Thai Visa scare mongering at it's purest

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https://thethaiger.com/hot-news/expats/call-centre-raid-in-bangkok-french-citizens-arrested

Quote

 

They arrested ten French nationals – seven men and three women. 9 of them had entered the country on tourist visas and had not upgraded their visas to business visas. They were charged with working without a legal work permit. The 10th had a work visa but was for an occupation unrelated to running an online business. He was charged with working outside an “authorised field” in his work permit.

 

The suspects told police they’d been working in Thailand for about a month, dealing with French clients and some in Belgium.

 

 

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12 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Anyone who believe that to be legally true.. Lets prove who is right or wrong. 

 

Let me gather full evidence of your work, video and proof, the work, the location, the payments, your claims you do not need a work permit.. And lets report it to the labour dept. 

 

I mean, its legal right, they will agree with you, and say no you dont need a work permit to work online, and you win.... I mean, surely someone so confident of thier position will do this ?? 

You used that comment before on me, when we discussed this a year ago,  and I will give you the same answer again . 

My business is in Europe, in Norway, and I pay my taxes there. My salary is there, my bank account is there.  If I need money in Thailand I will use my foreign ATM card or make a transfer. 

I live in Europe part of the year, but I also live in Thailand on a 1 year visa, based on retirement. I am semi retired, even if I am in Thailand I can still maintain my business in Norway, I can still answer e-mails and have Skype conversations . Like so many others. 

Would I be willing to take part in an "experiment " to see if the labor dep and immigration approve on my activities?  Since this is Thailand and "anything" can happen I would not risk it. But I would feel confident nothing bad would happen to me.

Because I do not earn my money in Thailand, simple as that. 

 

Edited by balo
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8 hours ago, DrTuner said:

It's not consequent 183 days though, you need to stay out of Thailand for at least 173 days to not be automatically tax resident. In the case where you're not clearly tax resident anywhere, the countries where you've spent your time start to compete who gets the loot.

I have no problems to understand what you mention is a part of the Thai laws, but if you have an investment in another country , like so many retired people do who stay here during the winter months, lets say up to 6 months, I would be very surprised if immigration will go after the retired people just because they did not stay out of Thailand for 173 days.  

 

Edited by balo
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23 minutes ago, balo said:

I have no problems to understand what you mention is a part of the Thai laws, but if you have an investment in another country , like so many retired people do who stay here during the winter months, lets say up to 6 months, I would be very surprised if immigration will go after the retired people just because they did not leave the country within 173 days.  

It wouldn't be the immigration, it would be the Revenue Department hunting you down. Pensions are often mentioned in the double taxation treatments and taxed at the source, which is all legit. In case of investments, back to gray area. Is it an investment that requires active involvement (which could be seen as work) or a passive one like owning a part of a company. Again, clear as mud and up to the whims of Thai officials.

 

It's the "remote work" that's the problem. You're supposed to get a work permit for that (also not immigration's job, it's the Ministry of Labor's backyard), which you can't do easily because you need a Thai company for a work permit and that means getting 2-4 employees and a Thai partner (unless from US) and so on. Then you would obviously pay income taxes to Thailand for any work done as per the permit. In theory it's clear cut. In practice the lack of enforcement has left people thinking maibpenrai, no need for any stinking permits or paying taxes, it's all good. Until it ain't. Up to you as the saying goes.

 

I've advocated for a freelancer visa & automatic work permit which could lead to PR for years on TVF. It would solve the problems and bring revenue, they could even limit it to overseas income only. Nothing whatsoever that I've seen gives any indication Thais are thinking about something like that. Quite the opposite, they want real tourists now, "expats" that are perpetual tourists are out of fashion.

 

EDIT: forgot one thing. On an O-visa or extension based on retirement employment is prohibited. No way to get a work permit in any case, would have to convert to one that allows employment.

Edited by DrTuner
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5 hours ago, DrTuner said:

On an O-visa or extension based on retirement employment is prohibited. No way to get a work permit in any case, would have to convert to one that allows employment.

Of course it is , I have no intentions to work for a Thai company or anything related to Thailand.

I am a retired person , a tourist with a few hobbies, one of my hobbies is to check my e-mail  / Line / Skype, if friends try to contact me or some business related questions . 

I will not switch off my internet line when I am in Thailand, that would be a very silly thing to do.   


 

 

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