Germany's other migration wave: the pensioner exodus

[JustAnotherHun]

On 1/18/2020 at 8:05 AM, CMNightRider said:

The average Thai would love to have a pension of 1,200 euros a month.  Most of the Thai Immigration officers who process our yearly visa's barely have two nickels to rub together. 

Compare the living costs of a Thai living in Thailand to a German living in Germany.

[micmichd]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You obviously don't understand how a socialist country works. I was told my entire life that if I worked hard and paid my tax, when I retired I'd be looked after. That was a lie, but I unfortunately believed it.

It used to be true for my parent's generation, but the capitalist <deleted> that took over the government raised the cost of housing to the extent it's unaffordable for anyone on a pension. Hence people living in cars, if lucky enough to have a car large enough. When even working people can't afford to rent, the pensioners are screwed.

I anticipate the number of suicides will rise dramatically in the next decade as baby boomers retire en mass.

I was told the same. Fortunately I didn't believe the German government a word. 

Yes, the situation is anomic and suicidal. But me as a cynic consider that a way of self-regulation. I'm glad I'm out. 

[micmichd]

13 hours ago, sirocco said:

candid, you're kidding, aren't you, when you write that Germany needs immigration to increase its population and fund pensions.
Again, immigrants should want to work.
But apparently, "work" is a word they have deleted from their vocabulary.
As for the increase in the population, they do not need advice or suggestions, each woman makes, on average, 8.5 children.
Why work, when they are helped excessively.
  In addition, they demonstrate when they feel that the government is not doing enough.
And Germany will have to rely on them?
But you seriously live in another world.
Let us abolish all these privileges and you will see that the migratory flow will stop soon enough

Yes, the medical and paramedical system (care for the elderly) will have to rely on immigrants. 

There's an exodus of doctors leaving Germany, too, so this gap must be filled somehow. 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, micmichd said:

Yes, the medical and paramedical system (care for the elderly) will have to rely on immigrants. 

There's an exodus of doctors leaving Germany, too, so this gap must be filled somehow. 

Perhaps if they paid them better and made their lives better by employing enough of them they wouldn't leave.

From my time in nursing, only consultants get the good money and low rank Drs have to work far too hard.

I left the country that trained me to be a nurse because even after I graduated the pittance they paid me was an insult. I went to Saudi which paid very well for my skills and then to the UK which paid way better than home, and also gave me decent holidays. Now nurses have to be imported as locals don't want to be saddled with a huge debt just to be a poorly paid worker after graduation.

[micmichd]

56 minutes ago, JustAnotherHun said:

The average pension of German men is about 1.100 € (ca. 33.000 THB), German women's average is about 800 € (26.400 THB). These are the people that worked their whole life and rebuilt Germany after ww2.

 

Any more questions about a country whose regime is floating the social security system with 1.5 million mostly illiterate migrants from <deleted>hole countries since 2015?

Not since 2015. Since 1989 when millions of East Germans threatened to flood West Germany if they don't get Western Deutsch Mark. And they got scammed by the Helmut Kohl regime who wanted to become the first chancellor of a re-united Great Germany. 

All Germans (especially German workers) got scammed again by the introduction of the Euro. 

This all happened long before 2015, so no causality with 1.5 million immigrants. 

But much causality with the centrifugal powers of turbo capitalism. 

[sirocco]

AH! how I love your stripping humor. Micmichd post 123
It is known that immigrants are over-educated and we are only waiting for them to raise the intellectual level of the Germans and to help them.
By the way, have you seen a surge of assaults in medical offices and hospitals by these immigrants?
Perhaps a reason for practitioners to leave their country.

[JustAnotherHun]

6 minutes ago, micmichd said:

Yes, the medical and paramedical system (care for the elderly) will have to rely on immigrants. [/quote]

Correct. There's a lack of 100.000 nurses in Germany right now. The whole healthcare system is close to collaps. Skilled staff is leaving for Switzerland or Scandinavia, young Germans are not interested in poorly paid jobs in the medical system.

It is my business, so I know what I'm talking about.

 

6 minutes ago, micmichd said:

There's an exodus of doctors leaving Germany, too, so this gap must be filled somehow. 

Right. Somehow, but how? There are tens of thousends quite well educated nurses in the Phillippines wanting to work abroad. None of them can get a work permit in Germany.

Instead of making Germany more attractive for skilled immigrants we open our borders for illiterates that have no positive impact to the society and never will have.

[JustAnotherHun]

40 minutes ago, micmichd said:

Not since 2015. Since 1989 when millions of East Germans threatened to flood West Germany if they don't get Western Deutsch Mark. And they got scammed by the Helmut Kohl regime who wanted to become the first chancellor of a re-united Great Germany. 

All Germans (especially German workers) got scammed again by the introduction of the Euro. 

This all happened long before 2015, so no causality with 1.5 million immigrants. 

But much causality with the centrifugal powers of turbo capitalism. 

I did not say there's a casuality to the migrants from 2015.

But I do say, no government has the right to flood its social security systems with millions of useless "asylum seekers" as long it is not capable to take care of those who worked all their life.

Edited January 20, 2020 by JustAnotherHun

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and the replies have been removed. 

[chrisandsu]

1 hour ago, JustAnotherHun said:

Compare the living costs of a Thai living in Thailand to a German living in Germany.

I only know my in-laws in Bangkok, They get a fair bit over 30k a month pension after working for the government . Who knows what other bunces they got after a life time of corruption and brown envelopes .

[chrisandsu]

40 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Perhaps if they paid them better and made their lives better by employing enough of them they wouldn't leave.

From my time in nursing, only consultants get the good money and low rank Drs have to work far too hard.

I left the country that trained me to be a nurse because even after I graduated the pittance they paid me was an insult. I went to Saudi which paid very well for my skills and then to the UK which paid way better than home, and also gave me decent holidays. Now nurses have to be imported as locals don't want to be saddled with a huge debt just to be a poorly paid worker after graduation.

The nhs paid for my sisters whole degree . She started as a nursing assistant and then went through what I would call an on the job apprenticeship. Then part time university . Was the best decision she ever made .

[micmichd]

1 hour ago, JustAnotherHun said:

I did not say there's a casuality to the migrants from 2015.

But I do say, no government has the right to flood its social security systems with millions of useless "asylum seekers" as long it is not capable to take care of those who worked all their life.

Agree. But the government has the duty to care for personnel in the healthcare system if the natives go to work elsewhere. Everything else would lead to a closed border system like they had in the GDR (East Germany) And if there are only immigrants available on the German labour market  then they have to take the immigrants. 

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, chrisandsu said:

Agree . All countries who have nationalised medicine should offer an apprenticeship/scholarship to all citizens and not to import low skilled cheap banglahore  street Drs who become nothing but a problem with poor diagnoses and sexual assault becoming common place . 

I was lucky and was paid to train in a hospital. Later they were stupid and brought in the pay to gain a uni qualification. The product was less good nurses and poorly paid graduates that couldn't afford to pay off the debt. Consequently locals stopped becoming nurses. I think only a few train now, compared to the past.

[micmichd]

8 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Citizens are rarely valued as much as immigrants in the west.

Strange but true.

If I would be sick in Germany and there would be only immigrants to cure me and care for me while the so-called German citizens are hanging around pampered by taxpayer's money I would certainly value the immigrants more. 

Strange? 

[JustAnotherHun]

7 minutes ago, micmichd said:

Agree. But the government has the duty to care for personnel in the healthcare system if the natives go to work elsewhere. Everything else would lead to a closed border system like they had in the GDR (East Germany) And if there are only immigrants available on the German labour market  then they have to take the immigrants. 

Yes, we need immigrants urgently as many other western countries do. And not only in the medical system. But we need educated people not illiterates like a huge numer of the so called asylum seekers.

Take a look at the statistics from BAMF. Most of the "refugees" are useless for our labour market - if they're willing to work at all.

Skilled people from outside the EU without a refugee status have no or just minimum chance to get a work permit.

 

What we need is an immigration law like other countries have. Australia or New Zealand for example.

 

But to be fair, even if we had better regulations, who the hell would want to live and work in a country with low wages and a growing trend to xenophobia if he could get the same job in Australia or Canada. Sad to say, but Germany is not competitve any more.

[JustAnotherHun]

15 minutes ago, micmichd said:

If I would be sick in Germany and there would be only immigrants to cure me and care for me while the so-called German citizens are hanging around pampered by taxpayer's money I would certainly value the immigrants more. 

Strange? 

Not strange at all.

But how many of the 1.5 Million migrants since 2015 are doctors, nurses or engineers?

The lack of skills of the immigrants is Germany's problem, not migration per se.

[BritManToo]

21 minutes ago, micmichd said:

If I would be sick in Germany and there would be only immigrants to cure me and care for me while the so-called German citizens are hanging around pampered by taxpayer's money I would certainly value the immigrants more. 

Strange? 

I'd rather my country trains and employs British citizens to treat me.

Can't really say about other countries.

[ThaiBunny]

1 minute ago, JustAnotherHun said:

But how many of the 1.5 Million migrants since 2015 are doctors, nurses or engineers?

Nevertheless there are often stories in the Western press about well-qualified refugees being "forced" to drive taxis or clean offices. The usual reason given is the problem with the refugee being able to demonstrate with documentation that they have comparable skills to those required for registration in the country where they've ended up

[JustAnotherHun]

4 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

Nevertheless there are often stories in the Western press about well-qualified refugees being "forced" to drive taxis or clean offices. The usual reason given is the problem with the refugee being able to demonstrate with documentation that they have comparable skills to those required for registration in the country where they've ended up

These are the famous exceptions, permanently repeated by the refugee-industry. Usually they come along with the stories of best integrated migrants founding sucessful companies and beeing a big win to the society.

There are such immigrants, no doubt. But how many compared to the hundred thousands illiterates?

 

[CMNightRider]

3 hours ago, JustAnotherHun said:

Compare the living costs of a Thai living in Thailand to a German living in Germany.

What is your point?

[JustAnotherHun]

9 minutes ago, CMNightRider said:

What is your point?

It was a reply to "many Thais would be happy to have a pension like Germans".

[Laughing Gravy]

4 hours ago, JustAnotherHun said:

Right. Somehow, but how? There are tens of thousends quite well educated nurses in the Phillippines wanting to work abroad. None of them can get a work permit in Germany.

Same in the UK.

 

4 hours ago, JustAnotherHun said:

Instead of making Germany more attractive for skilled immigrants we open our borders for illiterates that have no positive impact to the society and never will have.

Was the same for the UK and one reason why I, like many others voted to leave the EU. That is the agenda of the EU, flood the countries with immigrants who can't do the job, erode identities and claim everyone is an EU citizen only.

 

Good look to those in the EU as you will need it.

[ThomasThBKK]

2 hours ago, JustAnotherHun said:

But to be fair, even if we had better regulations, who the hell would want to live and work in a country with low wages and a growing trend to xenophobia if he could get the same job in Australia or Canada. Sad to say, but Germany is not competitve any more.

 

yeah because australia is so much more competitive: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/06/singapore-and-hong-kong-have-overtaken-the-us-as-the-most-competitive-economies-heres-how-25-countries-rank

 

germany 17th place, Australia 18th... 

 

1 hour ago, JustAnotherHun said:

It was a reply to "many Thais would be happy to have a pension like Germans".

If you think that a german pensioner has LESS BUYING POWER than a Thai pensioner you must be nuts.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, JustAnotherHun said:

These are the famous exceptions, permanently repeated by the refugee-industry. Usually they come along with the stories of best integrated migrants founding sucessful companies and beeing a big win to the society.

There are such immigrants, no doubt. But how many compared to the hundred thousands illiterates?

 

https://fortune.com/2019/01/15/immigrants-founded-half-fortune-500-companies/

 

Like half of the fortune 100 companies? How many millions do these employ compare to the few thousand illiterates? 

 

 

Let's face it, most complaining here didn't make it in the west. They try to blame someone else for their failure but there's no one to blame except themselves. If they grew up in Thailand they would be the bottom of the bottom without all the nanny state around them.

 

 

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I'd rather my country trains and employs British citizens to treat me.

Can't really say about other countries.

Dream on, no one in the west wants to make these <deleted>ty low paid jobs. You can be happy if you even find someone willing to do it. if it was only brits you likely wouln't be able to pay for it.

[JustAnotherHun]

18 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

yeah because australia is so much more competitive

More competitve to get EDUCATED immigrants.

 

If you think that a german pensioner has LESS BUYING POWER than a Thai pensioner you must be nuts.

Where did I say that?

 

Like half of the fortune 100 companies? How many millions do these employ compare to the few thousand illiterates?

I was talking about the migrants that came and come to Germany since 2015. You must be blind or not willing to read what I wrote. And by the way: It's not a few thousand illiterates, it is a huge percentage of those wo came in the last years. A permanent burden to an already suffering socail system.

 

[

Let's face it, most complaining here didn't make it in the west. They try to blame someone else for their failure but there's no one to blame except themselves. If they grew up in Thailand they would be the bottom of the bottom without all the nanny state around them.

Agree.

 

 

[CMNightRider]

3 hours ago, JustAnotherHun said:

It was a reply to "many Thais would be happy to have a pension like Germans".

That is what I said in an earlier post.

[gearbox]

9 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

Let's face it, most complaining here didn't make it in the west. They try to blame someone else for their failure but there's no one to blame except themselves. If they grew up in Thailand they would be the bottom of the bottom without all the nanny state around them.

 

 

The retirees after the GFC got screwed big time. The traditional low risk income producing investments for retirees like cash deposits and bonds pay next to nothing now. The governments claim that there is almost no inflation, so the pensions are getting indexed only a little bit.

 

One thing noticeable in this thread is that there are no complaining Americans. The social security pension rules there favor people that work and are getting paid well. The more you work, the more you get. With other pension systems where there is some common pool of money, everyone thinks they are underpaid, and the neighbour or the refugees get more.

 

The universal OAP should be abolished and replaced with a pension which is derived from how much taxes a worker paid during their working years, minus welfare benefits received. E.g paid $2000 tax received $1500 benefits X 40 years = 20k lifetime pension. If you don't like the amount, work and study harder.

 

 

 

[Laughing Gravy]

15 hours ago, ThaiBunny said:

Nevertheless there are often stories in the Western press about well-qualified refugees being "forced" to drive taxis or clean offices. The usual reason given is the problem with the refugee being able to demonstrate with documentation that they have comparable skills to those required for registration in the country where they've ended up

These are a bit like the stories in Thailand you hear about westerners/tourists leave a large amount of money behind and a good Thai gives it back. One in a million and largely suspicious.

 

I actually got into a taxi in the UK and the driver from Iran told me he was a doctor. I asked him why he wasn't a doctor in the UK and he said his qualifications were not recognised.

[gk10002000]

great great great article

[micmichd]

8 hours ago, gearbox said:

The retirees after the GFC got screwed big time. The traditional low risk income producing investments for retirees like cash deposits and bonds pay next to nothing now. The governments claim that there is almost no inflation, so the pensions are getting indexed only a little bit.

 

One thing noticeable in this thread is that there are no complaining Americans. The social security pension rules there favor people that work and are getting paid well. The more you work, the more you get. With other pension systems where there is some common pool of money, everyone thinks they are underpaid, and the neighbour or the refugees get more.

 

The universal OAP should be abolished and replaced with a pension which is derived from how much taxes a worker paid during their working years, minus welfare benefits received. E.g paid $2000 tax received $1500 benefits X 40 years = 20k lifetime pension. If you don't like the amount, work and study harder.

 

 

 

The German workers' pension insurance is quite good actually, employers contribute the same amount that their employees do. But it is designed for active workers only (whether native Germans or immigrants). Which brings us back to the problem: what about the unemployed that live on taxpayer's money (Hartz IV) - some of them all lifelong ((without being physically sick). 

 

For Americans it's easier. They have this individual right to purchase of happiness and equal opportunity in the labour market. But Germans have their holy Article 1 GG (untouchable dignity of mankind) in their constitution,  and they make it a guarantee to get pampered life-long (an equal output guarantee) So, more and more Germans don't care about the labour market anymore. 

 

And now the young ones come and want an economy without money - while at the same time they want Universal Basic Income (i.e. money for themselves) You can tell them a thousand times "Computers don't buy computers, as little as cars by cars" - you only get the stereotype reply "Henry Ford was a Nazi" 

That's modern "Green" Germany for you. 

Edited January 21, 2020 by micmichd

[JustAnotherHun]

What is widely misunderstood about the german pension system is the so called "Generationenvertrag".

That means, your payments into the system are not for your own pension, but to be provided to the working generation before you.

 

A system like that is not generally bad, but it can only work with a growing or at minimum a stable "working population".

Otherwise and with a rising life expectancy more and more retiree's pensions have to be provided by less youngsters in their working age.

 

So people have to work longer, pay a bigger part of their income (18.6% right now and rising)  into the system and have to expect a sharp decline in their own pension level later.

This is extremely unfair for the young generation and a problem for all those retireing in the near future.

 

Germany's pension problem has even sharpened since 1989, when we had to integrate 18 million people from the east to the system and the pension fonds were plundered by the government to get it done.

 

Solution? None! The pension system is mandatory to each employee, there's no way out.

If I was an educated youngster with internationally wanted skills and on the start of my carreer I would leave the country asap for better shores and take care of my OWN future.

 

Good luck to everyone.

Edited January 21, 2020 by JustAnotherHun