Non-OA health insurance Chaeng Wattan madness

[Momofarang]

15 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

I like Vietnam but the 3 month at a time Visa policy worries me more than the 1 year I get in Thailand.

 

You have to ask yourself how long they will continue to allow it if scores of Expats de-camp to there given that Cambodia has been talking about stricter checks on the 1 year "Business Visa" & even Philippines is debating whether to make changes to bar extensions to Visa on Arrival (i.e. the Visas that people from India/China etc... get) 

 

Hardly the basis for a long term retirement plan (I know, neither is Thailand anymore). 

And, oh so strangely, no one even mentions the excellent Malaysian option. M2H is still up, running and well designed, as far as I know.

Is is for lack of cheap p!!!y there? Bacon I managed to get.

[flexomike]

34 minutes ago, Alotoftravel said:

I have Pacific cross medical policy for my o a extension which also starts at 4:30 PM.

 

I wonder if I will encounter the Same problem here in chiang mai immigration; must have insurance Started prior to the expiry of my visa When i renew, I plan to go 45 days to apply before visa expiry? 

 

I did ask Pacific cross if I should get insurance for “ additional time” before my visa expiry , they Can but there will be no certificate for the extra time which they cannot guarantee that immigration will accept. 

 

Cannot seem to do the right thing nor know when or what is the right thing To do

 

Let us know how it works out 

[Mike Teavee]

47 minutes ago, Momofarang said:

And, oh so strangely, no one even mentions the excellent Malaysian option. M2H is still up, running and well designed, as far as I know.

Is is for lack of cheap p!!!y there? Bacon I managed to get.

Spent 15 months using KL as my base while I traveled around the region & no problem with getting bacon or pork there (some of the best lean pork cuts I've had were from the supermarkets in KL & ridiculously cheap), no problem getting cheap pussy either ???? 

 

But I didn't mention Malaysia as a) It's a lot more expensive than the Thai options & b) It comes with a requirement for Health Insurance (though I believe they will, on a case-by-case basis, wave the requirement & allow you to deposit a bond if none of the insurers will insure you).

 

The Philippines SRRV option is worth a look, by far the friendliest long term stay option & you can get access to Blue Cross health care (queue the "Yeah, but it's the Philippines" comments, I actually like the place, Visayas in particular, but that's just me).

 

[TerraplaneGuy]

2 hours ago, Alotoftravel said:

I have Pacific cross medical policy for my o a extension which also starts at 4:30 PM.

 

I wonder if I will encounter the Same problem here in chiang mai immigration; must have insurance Started prior to the expiry of my visa When i renew, I plan to go 45 days to apply before visa expiry? 

 

I did ask Pacific cross if I should get insurance for “ additional time” before my visa expiry , they Can but there will be no certificate for the extra time which they cannot guarantee that immigration will accept. 

 

Cannot seem to do the right thing nor know when or what is the right thing To do

 

I discussed this with Aetna and as you say they cannot give a certificate for the stub period coverage because the system only allows them to upload one certificate per customer to Immigration and of course we need the certificate for the extension coverage.   Yet Immigration told me they would allow me to get my extension in advance if I could prove I have coverage in the stub period.  The question is how could I prove that without a certificate?  I didn’t get into that with them but I suspect if you brought your stub period policy and a letter from the insurer (signed original) confirming coverage they might accept that.  If not they are really creating an impossible situation, demanding proof that cannot be given.  I’ve asked Aetna to explore this further and I’ll post what I hear. 

[TerraplaneGuy]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

 

But I didn't mention Malaysia as a) It's a lot more expensive than the Thai options & b) It comes with a requirement for Health Insurance (though I believe they will, on a case-by-case basis, wave the requirement & allow you to deposit a bond if none of the insurers will insure you).

 

 

More expensive in that you have to keep more money in a local account than in Thailand?Or ...?

[Mike Teavee]

59 minutes ago, TerraplaneGuy said:

More expensive in that you have to keep more money in a local account than in Thailand?Or ...?

Yes, the financial requirements (money in bank & income) are much higher than Thailand 

 

edit (apologies, am on my mobile)... 

Malaysia My Second Home program has one of the most stringent financial requirements as compared to retirement visas from other countries. The government places importance on attracting the people who are financially strong to support their stay here.

MM2H Visa Application: Financial Requirements

1. Applicants below the age of 50 years must provide proof of liquid financial assets or financial strength of at least RM500,000 and an offshore income equivalent to RM10,000 per month. There is no need to transfer any money to Malaysia yet. What is required are bank statements (the three months prior to submission)
2. Applicants above the age of 50 years must provide proof of liquid financial assets or financial strength of at least RM350,000 and an offshore income equivalent to RM10,000 per month. There is no need to transfer any money to Malaysia yet. What is required are bank statements (the three months prior to submission)
3. Sources of income: salary, investment returns, government pension, interest, rental of properties, royalty or any other income type earned outside Malaysia. Please let us know how you are going to meet this requirement. Some income may not be monthly income. It can be used but we need to work together on this matter.
4. Sources of financial strength: Property valuation are not considered. All others are acceptable but you need to let us know what you have.
5. Upon visa approval and in order for the visa to be stamped on the passport, the participant needs to deposit RM300,000 (below the age of 50) or RM150,000 (above the age of 50) in a bank operating in Malaysia. It will be a bank of his/her choice.

 

1,000 MYR is a little over 7,500 THB 

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Mike Teavee
Added financial requirements

[OJAS]

On 1/23/2020 at 1:41 PM, Martyp said:

My problem may be trying to renew my insurance 3 months early. 

That could, indeed, prove problematical as I gather that insurers only invite renewals of existing policies no earlier than 1 month before their expiry date.

[oznomad]

On 1/24/2020 at 12:10 PM, Mike Teavee said:

I like Vietnam but the 3 month at a time Visa policy worries me more than the 1 year I get in Thailand.

 

You have to ask yourself how long they will continue to allow it if scores of Expats de-camp to there given that Cambodia has been talking about stricter checks on the 1 year "Business Visa" & even Philippines is debating whether to make changes to bar extensions to Visa on Arrival (i.e. the Visas that people from India/China etc... get) 

 

Hardly the basis for a long term retirement plan (I know, neither is Thailand anymore). 

New Vietnam policy (from 1 July 2020) is 30 days. No more 3 months.

[TerraplaneGuy]

OP UPDATE:  I've had a lot of discussion with Aetna and they've talked to Immigration about my problem.   Aetna offered to increase my coverage to the required B40,000 OPD for the stub period before my next extension (between now and February 12) so that I can go in advance and extend.  But Immigration said it won't work because they will not accept even a signed certificate from Aetna confirming that.  They will only accept an uploaded certificate as proof, and since Aetna had to upload the certificate for my upcoming extension year already, and the system only takes one per customer, there is no way to upload another.  In other words, Immigration is saying that if I want to apply in advance (as per usual) I have to prove current coverage as well as coverage for the upcoming year, but that is impossible because the system can't show both!  So Immigration is sticking to their position that the only day I can apply is my expiry day, February 12.  And they are sticking to the time requirement, which means I can't apply before 4:30 PM (the time of my policy, and everyone's) when Chaeng Wattana closes.  As a special accommodation, they say they are prepared to have the staff work a few minutes late to get my extension done.  However, I will have to come back another day for my re-entry permit because that office will be closed by the time I have my extension.  I have Aetna's legal team working on the possibility of moving the time of my policy to an earlier time (although the law normally requires 4:30 pm).  I'm not optimistic on that.  Meanwhile what I'm wondering is:

 

1. Will this happen again next year?  If they continue with these rules, even though I will have proper coverage for the then-current year, when I go to apply again for an extension it seems I will run into the same problem:  Aetna will have to upload my new certificate for the upcoming extension year and the previous one will be deleted.  That will prevent me from applying in advance and force me to apply only on my expiry date at 4:30 PM.  That is unless Immigration is smart enough to devise a system of recording or preserving previous year's certificates.  Or doing the rational thing and relying on the fact that if you've already got an extension you met the requirements at that time.  But they're not doing that now so I'm not holding my breath for next year.  And if they don't change their rules, how can I expect them to make a special accommodation for me year after year?  Obviously they won't, so they'll force me to overstay and apply late, breaking the law.

 

2. Why do I seem to be one of only a very few people having this problem?  Are there not many holders of Non-Imm. O-A visas getting extensions?  If there are, why are you all not having this problem of being unable to apply in advance for want of proof of current insurance coverage?  I'd appreciate any input.

Edited February 2, 2020 by TerraplaneGuy

[Martyp]

42 minutes ago, TerraplaneGuy said:

OP UPDATE:  I've had a lot of discussion with Aetna and they've talked to Immigration about my problem.   Aetna offered to increase my coverage to the required B40,000 OPD for the stub period before my next extension (between now and February 12) so that I can go in advance and extend.  But Immigration said it won't work because they will not accept even a signed certificate from Aetna confirming that.  They will only accept an uploaded certificate as proof, and since Aetna had to upload the certificate for my upcoming extension year already, and the system only takes one per customer, there is no way to upload another.  In other words, Immigration is saying that if I want to apply in advance (as per usual) I have to prove current coverage as well as coverage for the upcoming year, but that is impossible because the system can't show both!  So Immigration is sticking to their position that the only day I can apply is my expiry day, February 12.  And they are sticking to the time requirement, which means I can't apply before 4:30 PM (the time of my policy, and everyone's) when Chaeng Wattana closes.  As a special accommodation, they say they are prepared to have the staff work a few minutes late to get my extension done.  However, I will have to come back another day for my re-entry permit because that office will be closed by the time I have my extension.  I have Aetna's legal team working on the possibility of moving the time of my policy to an earlier time (although the law normally requires 4:30 pm).  I'm not optimistic on that.  Meanwhile what I'm wondering is:

 

1. Will this happen again next year?  If they continue with these rules, even though I will have proper coverage for the then-current year, when I go to apply again for an extension it seems I will run into the same problem:  Aetna will have to upload my new certificate for the upcoming extension year and the previous one will be deleted.  That will prevent me from applying in advance and force me to apply only on my expiry date at 4:30 PM.  That is unless Immigration is smart enough to devise a system of recording or preserving previous year's certificates.  Or doing the rational thing and relying on the fact that if you've already got an extension you met the requirements at that time.  But they're not doing that now so I'm not holding my breath for next year.  And if they don't change their rules, how can I expect them to make a special accommodation for me year after year?  Obviously they won't, so they'll force me to overstay and apply late, breaking the law.

 

2. Why do I seem to be one of only a very few people having this problem?  Are there not many holders of Non-Imm. O-A visas getting extensions?  If there are, why are you all not having this problem of being unable to apply in advance for want of proof of current insurance coverage?  I'd appreciate any input.

My Pacific Cross insurance begins January 1st. I originally got my PC insurance before the insurance requirement. If I understand the logic of what is happening to you then I think I will be OK in November if I can get my insurance renewed early enough before November 19th when my extension of stay expires. When I apply I will have an insurance certificate for this year in the database. I will have a certificate for next year, starting January 1, but not yet uploaded to the database. I may have to move my insurance back to December 1 if renewing early becomes a problem. In any case do you see this timing as a possible solution to your situation?

[TerraplaneGuy]

1 minute ago, Martyp said:

My Pacific Cross insurance begins January 1st. I originally got my PC insurance before the insurance requirement. If I understand the logic of what is happening to you then I think I will be OK in November if I can get my insurance renewed early enough before November 19th when my extension of stay expires. When I apply I will have an insurance certificate for this year in the database. I will have a certificate for next year, starting January 1, but not yet uploaded to the database. I may have to move my insurance back to December 1 if renewing early becomes a problem. In any case do you see this timing as a possible solution to your situation?

I don't.   The problem is that when you go to extend, say on November 2, your new certificate, for the upcoming year, will not be uploaded.  They will not accept it as proof of coverage.  So they will say come back when it is uploaded.  Changing your policy to December 1 won't change that. 

[Peter Denis]

On 1/23/2020 at 5:32 PM, gamini said:

My friend who is 88 would like to spend his last few years in Thailand. He has ample funds for retirement visa deposit and anything else, No insurance company will ensure him at his age . So what happens now

Some posters have suggested that he could apply for the Elite Visa.  That's of course an option when 500K bath for the 5 year Elite Visa is not a big deal for him.

Alternatively, he could simply enter Thailand Visa Exempt or on a Tourist Visa, and then apply for a 90-day Non Imm O - retirement Visa at the IO of the place where he would like to stay.  In the last month of that 90-day period, he can then apply at that same IO for a 1-year extension of stay.

Following the above route he would be in the same situation as applying for an extension of stay at the end of the permission to stay granted by an OA Visa.  But with the important difference that for the Non Imm O - retirement Visa (and extension) NO bogus health-insurance is required.

>>> I did PM you a comprehensive roadmap outlining all details / options when you want to go the Non Imm O - retirement road.

To access your PM-messages just click the letter-icon next to your profile when logged in to the Forum.

[Peter Denis]

On 1/22/2020 at 4:12 PM, TerraplaneGuy said:

That's my concern and why I've held off on changing.  

On 1/22/2020 at 4:03 PM, Caldera said:

...

Personally, I think changing to a Non-O visa - while tempting - will lead to a very short-lived victory for those who do it. Now that Thai immigration and insurance companies have created that nice little earner, does anyone really believe that they won't maximize the number of "customers" (victims) in the very near future? I bet it's just around the corner.

I feel for you having read your continuing ordeal at IO with the thai-approved health-insurance policy you bought.

You state that you were aware of the option to change to a Non Imm O - retirement Visa but held off on doing so because you felt the 'O' would be next.  Personally I do not believe that the thai authorities will roll-out the present mandatory health-insurance disaster to other Visa categories anytime soon. 

So given the problems you encountered (and will likely keep on encountering in the future) why not switch to a Non Imm O - retirement Visa.  You can keep your present Aetna health-insurance policy when you are satisfied with it (or dump it, and go for another thai or international health-insurance that meets your needs).

The process to convert to a Non Imm O - retirement Visa is surprisingly simple, and I bet the whole process would have taken you less time and surely less frustration than what you are struggling with now.

I have PM-ed you a comprehensive roadmap outlining all details/options on how to do it.

[Martyp]

8 hours ago, TerraplaneGuy said:

I don't.   The problem is that when you go to extend, say on November 2, your new certificate, for the upcoming year, will not be uploaded.  They will not accept it as proof of coverage.  So they will say come back when it is uploaded.  Changing your policy to December 1 won't change that. 

I will just have to go to CW later in the year and have a discussion about what they will accept at that time. You seem to presenting a situation where no one can get an extension unless they are there at 4:30pm on the day it expires. Obviously that is not the case for many people who have obtained extension for the last couple of months. 

[TerraplaneGuy]

4 minutes ago, Martyp said:

I will just have to go to CW later in the year and have a discussion about what they will accept at that time. You seem to presenting a situation where no one can get an extension unless they are there at 4:30pm on the day it expires. Obviously that is not the case for many people who have obtained extension for the last couple of months. 

Yes, that is exactly what I've been told repeatedly by Immigration escalating up several levels of seniority.  Aetna was told the same thing when they inquired.  I agree it makes no sense and I'd like to hear from anyone with a Non-OA who has recently extended at CW about their experience.  Could it be that not many people have these visas anymore?

Edited February 2, 2020 by TerraplaneGuy

[pitrevie]

11 hours ago, TerraplaneGuy said:

Yes, that is exactly what I've been told repeatedly by Immigration escalating up several levels of seniority.  Aetna was told the same thing when they inquired.  I agree it makes no sense and I'd like to hear from anyone with a Non-OA who has recently extended at CW about their experience.  Could it be that not many people have these visas anymore?

I went to CW 1 week before my NON OA extension expired naively thinking that the fact that I had a bank account with considerable more in it for several years than was required by their medical insurance and that I had been doing this for some 15 years would obviate the requirement for an insurance policy that I did not require. Nope bank book not even looked at medical insurance or out. A week later I was back 1 day before my extension expired only to be told that my medical insurance was dated the next day and although everything was in order as the medical insurance commenced on the day my new extension commenced I would have to return the following day to get my extension approved, yep just one day. To add insult to injury I was also told that I would have to update my bank book again the following day and a photocopy. I have decided the hassle isn't worth it anymore and I will return to my home country later this year. The only reason I am staying any longer is that I need to wrap things up and I also have a sea cruise booked in July which all starts and ends in Bangkok. 

Last year I was required to produce a drawing locating my condo. No problem I produced my name card with everything in Thai and English and a map on the rear but no they needed me to draw it. I arrived on a new passport a few years ago only to be told by CW that I would need to get the embassy to sign some form before they could put my new extension stamps in the new passport. I go to my bank in which I have held an account for some 20 to 30 years only to be told if I want to open an account I need a form from the embassy which my friend who works in a bank told me they throw in a box. If I want to renew my Thai driving licence I need to go to the embassy for another form for that. This is getting more and more like a bureaucratic North Korea but with a smile.

[TerraplaneGuy]

2 hours ago, pitrevie said:

I went to CW 1 week before my NON OA extension expired naively thinking that the fact that I had a bank account with considerable more in it for several years than was required by their medical insurance and that I had been doing this for some 15 years would obviate the requirement for an insurance policy that I did not require. Nope bank book not even looked at medical insurance or out. A week later I was back 1 day before my extension expired only to be told that my medical insurance was dated the next day and although everything was in order as the medical insurance commenced on the day my new extension commenced I would have to return the following day to get my extension approved, yep just one day. ....

Welcome to the club.  Tell us, when they said come back on the day of your expiry did they say anything about the TIME?  As I've mentioned, with me they said they couldn't issue an extension before not only the day but the TIME that the new policy took effect, which is (I am told by Aetna) always, by law, 4:30 PM (check your certificate, you'll see) and therefore means extension is impossible unless they make a special accommodation to work with you past closing time which of course is 4:30 PM.  I doubt even the North Koreans could get that stupid.

[pitrevie]

2 hours ago, TerraplaneGuy said:

Welcome to the club.  Tell us, when they said come back on the day of your expiry did they say anything about the TIME?  As I've mentioned, with me they said they couldn't issue an extension before not only the day but the TIME that the new policy took effect, which is (I am told by Aetna) always, by law, 4:30 PM (check your certificate, you'll see) and therefore means extension is impossible unless they make a special accommodation to work with you past closing time which of course is 4:30 PM.  I doubt even the North Koreans could get that stupid.

No thankfully it was just "come back tomorrow."

[TerraplaneGuy]

38 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

No thankfully it was just "come back tomorrow."

So you already got it?  And what time did they issue your extension?

[pitrevie]

28 minutes ago, TerraplaneGuy said:

So you already got it?  And what time did they issue your extension?

I completed the procedure in the morning but I have just checked my policy and in fact it is timed later that day so perhaps in hindsight I was lucky to get out of the building while being in the country uninsured with no medical cover for 4 hours. 

[TerraplaneGuy]

13 hours ago, pitrevie said:

I completed the procedure in the morning but I have just checked my policy and in fact it is timed later that day so perhaps in hindsight I was lucky to get out of the building while being in the country uninsured with no medical cover for 4 hours. 

You are indeed lucky and I can see you share my amusement at the idiocy of what they insisted on for me (and are still - I have Aetna talking to them and they still say the time is crucial).  What they don't seem to realize is that if they care about the first few hours they should equally care about the final few hours (a year from now) but they don't.  Their extension is not time-limited so it extends right through to the end of the last day.  Nomatter how they do it, there will always be some uncovered hours.   The only way around that would be to have the insurance policies timed at 0:00.  But this is apparently beyond their grasp of arithmetic.

[TerraplaneGuy]

OP Update: On my second trip to CW (yesterday) I finally got my extension, a few days before expiry of my current one.  It took a creative solution from Aetna and the intervention of an Inspector/Superintendent at Immigration.  Not a solution that is going to apply in other cases, unfortunately.  But Aetna is working with the TGIA (Thai General Insurance Association, which liaises with Immigration on this) to try to find a general fix.

[JimGant]

47 minutes ago, TerraplaneGuy said:

Thai General Insurance Association, which liaises with Immigration on this)

Liaises? You mean, each has his own nipple on the farang nailed to the floor?