20/4 Fasting

[Tayaout]

According to this study published on 30 January 2019: https://www.bmj.com/content/364/bmj.l42

 

If your goal is weight loss then you better skip breakfast. In my case I'm never hungry so why should I eat? 

 

Edit: The only time that I eat breakfast is when I'm on vacation and the breakfast is included but then I usually skip lunch and eat diner. However, I tend to gain weight after some nice beach vacation. ????

Edited February 15, 2020 by Tayaout

[NotYourBusiness]

18 hours ago, stephenterry said:

Latest science favours eating a king's breakfast as the body's metabolic rate is at its highest in the morning, and declines during the day. Hence you could consume more calories which get burnt off with fat. Fill your bowl with whole fruits, berries, nuts and oatmeal topped with coconut milk to take you through to a light prince's lunch and a pauper's dinner.

OK but I can definitely say that in my case this recommendation by itself would be totally useless because it doesn't address the underlying root cause.

[stephenterry]

18 hours ago, Tayaout said:

Link please? 

https://www.bookdepository.com/How-Not-To-Diet-Michael-Greger/9781529038705?redirected=true&utm_medium=Google&utm_campaign=Base1&utm_source=TH&utm_content=How-Not-To-Diet&selectCurrency=THB&w=AF5NAU96PGFCX2A8V7N0&pdg=pla-293946777986:cmp-6921261838:adg-81438836562:crv-389852909219:pos-:dev-c&gclid=Cj0KCQiAyp7yBRCwARIsABfQsnS0MxF2PvEM_HL--ZqTnG8pvQM28Hj7k1UN8eusdhuvgizLPFlla3YaAr7XEALw_wcB

[Saltire]

I have been on keto/Intermittent Fasting (18/6) for more than 2 years. I am down 20+ kg which alone makes me feel better. I have 5 Kg more to go and it's slower now but I know for sure i will get there. I am type 2 diabetic for over 8 years.

 

As for muscles I need to work out a new routine as I definetely feal week in the legs and arms. I was embarrased a week or so ago when I had to get onto the bed of my Hilux pickup and couldnt pull myself up! Failed much to the amusement of onlookers!

 

I already walk twice a day around the village, around 6 km or more every day. Rainy season I use a treadmill. Looking at a gentle workout and light weights now. I check my blood suger every morning and sometimes more, and am now in normal range, I avoid eating something that will cause a sugar spike.

 

I have no probem with staying on keto. I now rarely get hungry enough to break my routine and occasionally add in a One Meal a Day.

 

My main problem is real sugar addiction and avoiding snacks/Lays/Beng Beng!

 

 

[Tayaout]

27 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

https://www.bookdepository.com/How-Not-To-Diet-Michael-Greger/9781529038705?redirected=true&utm_medium=Google&utm_campaign=Base1&utm_source=TH&utm_content=How-Not-To-Diet&selectCurrency=THB&w=AF5NAU96PGFCX2A8V7N0&pdg=pla-293946777986:cmp-6921261838:adg-81438836562:crv-389852909219:pos-:dev-c&gclid=Cj0KCQiAyp7yBRCwARIsABfQsnS0MxF2PvEM_HL--ZqTnG8pvQM28Hj7k1UN8eusdhuvgizLPFlla3YaAr7XEALw_wcB

I know this vegan "doctor" and don't agree with him but it might fit some. It would be more usefull if you link actual research instead of a book that I won't buy. 

 

"To start off, Michael Greger is not a PhD scientist, he is not even a Nutritionist or Dietitian, he is a general practitioner who is famous for bailing out Oprah when he was an expert witness for Mad Cows Disease back when Oprah made the meat market sink. "

https://www.thatnerdysciencegirl.com/2015/11/13/the-case-against-dr-michael-gregernutritionfacts/

[cornishcarlos]

19 hours ago, Monkeyrobot said:

Can you still eat Pussy on this diet??

 

Only for 8 hrs a day !! 

[cornishcarlos]

I did a 72 hr water only fast, just to see what happens...

Apart from getting a little irritable on day 2 and losing 3kg (probably water), the main thing I noticed was really bad breath !!!

Friend of mine told me that is common side affect of Ketosis...

Anyone else experience this ???

[stephenterry]

1 hour ago, Tayaout said:

I know this vegan "doctor" and don't agree with him but it might fit some. It would be more usefull if you link actual research instead of a book that I won't buy. 

 

"To start off, Michael Greger is not a PhD scientist, he is not even a Nutritionist or Dietitian, he is a general practitioner who is famous for bailing out Oprah when he was an expert witness for Mad Cows Disease back when Oprah made the meat market sink. "

https://www.thatnerdysciencegirl.com/2015/11/13/the-case-against-dr-michael-gregernutritionfacts/

The research is in his book, and on You Tube if you can get off your butt and go look. He collates all studies to evidence his findings. I can't be bothered to go look for it, as it's among 5,000 references in the back appendix. 

As for what he is or not, I support his research ability to bring latest science to the table for debate. Whether you agree with him or not, is your choice, not my business to pander to your requests.

[Tayaout]

1 hour ago, stephenterry said:

The research is in his book, and on You Tube if you can get off your butt and go look. He collates all studies to evidence his findings. I can't be bothered to go look for it, as it's among 5,000 references in the back appendix. 

As for what he is or not, I support his research ability to bring latest science to the table for debate. Whether you agree with him or not, is your choice, not my business to pander to your requests.

I know him very well and many of his claims are debunked by other experts. If you simply make claims without citing the study then it's difficult to take them seriously. I did some research by my own about your claim about breakfast and experts are far from forming a consensus. It depends a lot of the situation and there is no 1 size fit all. 

[NotYourBusiness]

16 hours ago, stephenterry said:

The research is in his book, and on You Tube if you can get off your butt and go look. He collates all studies to evidence his findings. I can't be bothered to go look for it, as it's among 5,000 references in the back appendix. 

As for what he is or not, I support his research ability to bring latest science to the table for debate. Whether you agree with him or not, is your choice, not my business to pander to your requests.

May I ask how would he answer my question: Why are fat people hungry? They might have a MILLION calories in storage. They shouldn't be hungry. Why are they?

[Tayaout]

35 minutes ago, NotYourBusiness said:

May I ask how would he answer my question: Why are fat people hungry? They might have a MILLION calories in storage. They shouldn't be hungry. Why are they?

Insuline resistance that might be exacerbated by sugar and carbohydrates intake. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5656737/

 

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by Tayaout

[phuketsub]

I started doing #nsng (no sugar, no grains) a few years ago with remarkably good results across the board; I am also trying to get it up to another level with IMF, but the main problem I face is TEMPTATION.

 

I live with three generations of sugar-addicts, but I do have the ability to stay clear of all the processed sugars and junk food by cooking and growing most of my own food, usually a bone-broth stew.

 

However, when I try to push my fast well into the afternoon, I always have to pass a table full of delicious Southern Thai dishes throughout the day. Too often I break down, and a big factor I know is that I tell myself 'all that food is going to be wasted' if I don't eat it.

 

Another factor is that I am a functional alcoholic, so sometimes I think that all of my hardcore attention to fitness and dieting is just a crutch to support that lifestyle choice. But at least the fasting helps keep me from day drinking, at least most of the time.

 

I need to go back Stateside for two months this Summer, and I while I look forward to seeing my siblings I pretty much dread having to be back in the grips of the US food industry, especially while being dependent on siblings who won't want to listen to an alcoholic preaching about the dangers of processed food... . The idea of trying to pull off a 12-hour jet lag and recovery amidst airplane food and constantly being surrounded by feasting family and friends is probably going to make fasting mush more difficult, if not impossible. 

 

Any advice of how to cope with that would be much appreciated...

 

 

[stephenterry]

2 hours ago, phuketsub said:

Extract question: -

I need to go back Stateside for two months this Summer, and I while I look forward to seeing my siblings I pretty much dread having to be back in the grips of the US food industry, especially while being dependent on siblings who won't want to listen to an alcoholic preaching about the dangers of processed food... . The idea of trying to pull off a 12-hour jet lag and recovery amidst airplane food and constantly being surrounded by feasting family and friends is probably going to make fasting mush more difficult, if not impossible. 

 

Any advice of how to cope with that would be much appreciated...

 

 

From your post, I gather that you realise you have an addictive personality, whether genetically or otherwise. That recognition will keep you in good stead, however, and firstly you could just relax, chill out, and enjoy the two months - it's not a lifetime sentence - with your family and friends. 

 

Secondly, it's your life and only your choice of how you choose to live. That is important. Also important is to change your daily habitual routine  - go for a walk, ride, bowling alley, movie; anything to break up your addictive habits and put in place more healthy habits.  For example, instead of fixed times for breakfast, lunch or dinner, it's essential to move, delay or lose the time by following the above suggestions. Daily walks are an excellent way to keep healthy - get lost in the forest or the shopping mall - and enjoy a change of scenery instead.

 

 

[cheshiremusicman]

On 2/15/2020 at 8:47 AM, Tayaout said:

Breakfast, snack, lunch, snack, diner, snack. 

That is a typical American lifestyle approach to eating, almost always eating and drinking to excess. I tend to have one good meal a day with lots of vegetables, which satisfies me, but you can get hung up on dieting, which fortunately I do not have to do and I am 76 years old. 

[phuketsub]

9 hours ago, stephenterry said:

From your post, I gather that you realise you have an addictive personality, whether genetically or otherwise. That recognition will keep you in good stead, however, and firstly you could just relax, chill out, and enjoy the two months - it's not a lifetime sentence - with your family and friends. 

 

Secondly, it's your life and only your choice of how you choose to live. That is important. Also important is to change your daily habitual routine  - go for a walk, ride, bowling alley, movie; anything to break up your addictive habits and put in place more healthy habits.  For example, instead of fixed times for breakfast, lunch or dinner, it's essential to move, delay or lose the time by following the above suggestions. Daily walks are an excellent way to keep healthy - get lost in the forest or the shopping mall - and enjoy a change of scenery instead.

 

 

Thanks for that. You are right that the change of scenery will do me good. At least where I will be going is clean compared to where I live now, where plastic garbage is found along the roadsides everywhere. Also, the last few times back it was in winter for funeral (RIP Mom and Dad), and I was still suffering from a broken hip....as for those long walks, I think I will take the forest over the shopping mall! (it might even lower my chances of being shot!)...anyway, thanks again.

[NotYourBusiness]

On 2/17/2020 at 7:23 AM, Tayaout said:

Insuline resistance that might be exacerbated by sugar and carbohydrates intake. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5656737/

 

 

Sorry, this video doesn't explain why fat people feel hungry. And once you can answer this simple question, you are on your way to skinny. That is why it is so important.

[Tayaout]

8 minutes ago, NotYourBusiness said:

Sorry, this video doesn't explain why fat people feel hungry. And once you can answer this simple question, you are on your way to skinny. That is why it is so important.

The link explain why. It's suspected to be related to Insuline resistance or high Insuline level. The doctor explain he fixed a teenager hunger problem by reducing carbohydrates and sugar from his diet and administering an Insuline reducing drug. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Tayaout

[NotYourBusiness]

6 minutes ago, Tayaout said:

The link explain why. It's suspected to be related to Insuline resistance or high Insuline level. The doctor explain he fixed a teenager hunger problem by reducing carbohydrates and sugar from his diet and administering an Insuline reducing drug. 

OK thanks, you are getting closer. I tried reducing carbs and sugar, but what everyone must realize is that protein also raises insulin, although not as much as carbs. This was my problem. Reducing carbs and sugars did not work for me. Just continued to gain weight.

But there is something that works great, and no drugs of any kind needed.

 

The longest medically monitored fast was over one year. Here is the story. And by the way, he was fat, but not hungry during his fast. Hint: there is a clue here.

 

[Tayaout]

@NotYourBusiness I understand that protein can raise Insuline via gluconeogenesis. That's why in theory every morning I break my fast by putting only fat (butter & coconut oil) in my coffee but it's almost not noticeable when I test my blood sugar. So I probably still get the benefits of autophagy without any hunger since the fat keep me satieted until my feeding window in the afternoon.

 

What is strange is that many carnivore report staying in ketosis even tho they eat a huge amount of protein. I guess not everyone react the same to protein. I tried carnivore and my weight loss (or inflammation reduction) was increased vs my usual ketogenic diet and it did not kick me out of ketosis. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Tayaout

[NotYourBusiness]

23 minutes ago, Tayaout said:

@NotYourBusiness I understand that protein can raise Insuline via gluconeogenesis. That's why in theory every morning I break my fast by putting only fat (butter & coconut oil) in my coffee but it's almost not noticeable when I test my blood sugar. So I probably still get the benefits of autophagy without any hunger since the fat keep me satieted until my feeding window in the afternoon.

 

What is strange is that many carnivore report staying in ketosis even tho they eat a huge amount of protein. I guess not everyone react the same to protein. I tried carnivore and my weight loss (or inflammation reduction) was increased vs my usual ketogenic diet and it did not kick me out of ketosis. 

Thank you, you seem to have a good grasp of the fundamentals. But those videos you shared have very little actionable information. The reason why fat people are hungry when they shouldn't be is due to high resting insulin levels. You use the term "insulin resistance" and while it might be medically correct or not, I HATE that term because it sounds like there is nothing that can be done about it. High resting insulin, whatever the cause, insulin resistance or not, is what causes fat people to feel hungry when they shouldn't. That was me before, hungry ALL THE TIME, but unable to eat anything or I would be huge. Very difficult to lose weight with high resting insulin levels. You feel hungry all the time and pack on the pounds with what little you do eat.

 

Once you make this simple connection of high resting insulin ==> hunger, then the next logical question is: how can I reduce my resting insulin level? And there is one way that works great: FASTING. And the key point here is that after 24 hours of fasting, your resting insulin drops by about 70% and you no longer feel hungry! The guy that fasted for over one year wasn't hungry! How is it possible? Answer: lower your resting insulin levels. How to do that? Answer: FASTING. That is the real key to getting skinny. All these videos about insulin resistance, low carbs, ketosis, blah blah blah just confuse everyone including me.

 

Search YouTube for "Butter Bob" for a much better, clearer explanation.

Edited February 18, 2020 by NotYourBusiness

[stephenterry]

NYB - Apologies if this explanation needs sharpening, but it's broad brush accurate.  I agree that fasting is fundamental for long term weight loss, however it's the increase in metabolic rate that burns off fats. Or more accurately, it doesn't decrease, unlike the effects of dieting.

 

As for feeling hungry, on a IF regime it's normal to suffer hunger pangs for a day or so until the body recognises and adapts to burning stored fat (ketogenic) instead of caloric glucose. 

 

There are a few very good books on the science of fasting and metabolic rates which explain why people cannot sustain weight loss on restrictive diet alone. In simple terms the body recognises a reduction in calories could mean starvation, and therefore lowers the metabolic rate to compensate - which leaves the dieter to ever decrease calories or gain weight back.

 

When fasting - see para 2 above, that doesn't happen - if my memory is correct, it's because the body is content with a stored fat food source to keep alive and well. And it has the added benefit of 'accepting' a lower body weight as being the new norm.

 

 

 

 

[Tayaout]

@NotYourBusiness I know butterbob! However here are my main preferred channels in no particular order:

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/lowcarbdownunder

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/highintensityhealth

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnYMOamNKLGVlJgRUbamveA

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzRYivTpUQ0r2qPPjfLoQiA

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/KenDBerry

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/drericberg123

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsHqu8IYwBjNLYk2MrNIxuw

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheTdelauer

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/NutritionalHealingA2

 

 

[NotYourBusiness]

3 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

NYB - Apologies if this explanation needs sharpening, but it's broad brush accurate.  I agree that fasting is fundamental for long term weight loss, however it's the increase in metabolic rate that burns off fats. Or more accurately, it doesn't decrease, unlike the effects of dieting.

 

As for feeling hungry, on a IF regime it's normal to suffer hunger pangs for a day or so until the body recognises and adapts to burning stored fat (ketogenic) instead of caloric glucose. 

 

There are a few very good books on the science of fasting and metabolic rates which explain why people cannot sustain weight loss on restrictive diet alone. In simple terms the body recognises a reduction in calories could mean starvation, and therefore lowers the metabolic rate to compensate - which leaves the dieter to ever decrease calories or gain weight back.

 

When fasting - see para 2 above, that doesn't happen - if my memory is correct, it's because the body is content with a stored fat food source to keep alive and well. And it has the added benefit of 'accepting' a lower body weight as being the new norm.

 

 

 

 

OK thanks for your comment. Please try to answer my fundamental question: Why are fat people hungry?

[stephenterry]

On 2/18/2020 at 9:22 AM, NotYourBusiness said:

OK thanks for your comment. Please try to answer my fundamental question: Why are fat people hungry?

That's quite simple, IMO, but also complicated depending on genetics, lifestyle, and mental/personal issues. A recommended 'one cap fits all' solution would depend on the individual. Bearing in mind the above restrictions, the norm is for people to become fat because they're simply eating the wrong foods - i.e. unhealthy junk packaged processed foods and drinks, full  of sugars and sodium, and artificial sweetened, caffeine additive, sodas, like Coca Cola. This is the fast track to diabetes and, long term, more serious diseases like arterial heart blockage, strokes and cancer - the three leading causes of early deaths.

 

So, unless these fat people change their diet to eat more healthily, they would feel hungry all the time because for the same reason their bodies are not getting the nutrients they need from junk food. This, the body recognises and sends messages to the brain to deliver a 'hungry' message.

 

Once a fat person changes to, for example, a Whole Food Plant Based nutrition regime, the hunger messages are not needed anymore - the person loses weight naturally, and the risk of diabetes (and other serious disease) is lowered - or eliminated. 

 

BTW - As night follows day I'd put my house on it that fat people  (not on meds or suffering from a genetic or mental disorder) would most likely suffer from malnutrition.

 

 

[Tayaout]

"After 30 days of veganism, the group of seven — one person dropped out of the challenge — ran the same tests to see if they were any healthier.

Dr. Raj Attariwala, who runs the clinic, says he lost eight pounds but it was mostly muscle.

"I have to tighten my belt but I gained fat," he said. "I'm a skinnier, fatter guy than I was before.""

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/aim-medical-imaging-vegan-january-1.5459062

 

 

[UbonThani]

6 weeks in

11 kgs lost

Energy up

Strength up

 

Any good questions?

[Kennycrossfit]

53 minutes ago, UbonThani said:

6 weeks in

11 kgs lost

Energy up

Strength up

 

Any good questions?

How many calories are you eating a day and what's the macros 

[UbonThani]

6 minutes ago, Kennycrossfit said:

How many calories are you eating a day and what's the macros 

It varies.

 

Typical dinners

 -Medium steak, 3 eggs, cheese and butter

 

-Can of tuna, 2 eggs, cheese and butter, mussells

 

-4 or 5 Sausages, 3 eggs, cheese and butter

 

Dont count it really. Dont need too. Eat til satisfied.

 

Eat carbs somedays maybe a dragonfruit or pear.

 

Some junk on weekends.

 

Morning is salt, water and black coffee. Lunch is water.

 

Try to eat betwen 4.30 and 6.30.

 

 

 

 

[NotYourBusiness]

On 2/18/2020 at 7:02 PM, stephenterry said:

That's quite simple, IMO, but also complicated depending on genetics, lifestyle, and mental/personal issues. A recommended 'one cap fits all' solution would depend on the individual. Bearing in mind the above restrictions, the norm is for people to become fat because they're simply eating the wrong foods - i.e. unhealthy junk packaged processed foods and drinks, full  of sugars and sodium, and artificial sweetened, caffeine additive, sodas, like Coca Cola. This is the fast track to diabetes and, long term, more serious diseases like arterial heart blockage, strokes and cancer - the three leading causes of early deaths.

 

So, unless these fat people change their diet to eat more healthily, they would feel hungry all the time because for the same reason their bodies are not getting the nutrients they need from junk food. This, the body recognises and sends messages to the brain to deliver a 'hungry' message.

 

Once a fat person changes to, for example, a Whole Food Plant Based nutrition regime, the hunger messages are not needed anymore - the person loses weight naturally, and the risk of diabetes (and other serious disease) is lowered - or eliminated. 

 

BTW - As night follows day I'd put my house on it that fat people  (not on meds or suffering from a genetic or mental disorder) would most likely suffer from malnutrition.

 

 

@stephenterryThank you for your opinion, but then please explain why the guy on the one year fast was not hungry the whole time (except for the first days). He obviously wasn't getting any nutrients, whole plant based or not. And furthermore, he was under doctor supervision and he was not suffering from malnutrition, even when fat and not eating for over one year. Apologies, your theory has some holes.

Edited February 23, 2020 by NotYourBusiness

[UbonThani]

6 minutes ago, NotYourBusiness said:

@stephenterryThank you for your opinion, but then please explain why the guy on the one year fast was not hungry the whole time (except for the first days). He obviously wasn't getting any nutrients, whole plant based or not.

How true is that story?

 

Did anyone do blood work?

 

Without protein he would have lost strength.