Thailand and guns: Media mentions thousands of deaths from gun violence - but the USA is worse

[oslooskar]

8 hours ago, Intrepidman said:

"time and again" so it's happened twice now?   Kidding aside, as an American I am amazed how rarely private citizens manage to stop crime with their guns, especially concealed carry guns.  Anyone have any stats on the subject?   I'm genuinely curious. 

I doubt that there are any accurate statistics because such cases are most likely never reported to the police. However, in my own case I stopped crime and apprehended criminals several times by pulling my revolver. In San Francisco two individuals were going to mug me at San Bruno Avenue and Dwight but changed their minds when I pulled my revolver. I chased two guys in the Marina district who had just stabbed a guy on Union Street and held them at gunpoint until the police arrived. I saw a man being beaten by a gang of thugs on Market and Jones streets and pulled my revolver and held the ringleader at the scene of the crime until the police arrived. I caught a mugger in the act of mugging an old man at California and Hyde streets and held him at gunpoint until the police arrived. I shot a robber who had just held me up at Hayes and Pierce. I caught two burglars on the back fire escape of the apartment building I was living in and held them at gunpoint until the police arrived. I also caught another burglar on that same fire escape a few months later and held him until the police arrived. (He was wanted in the state of Louisiana.) I chased two muggers on Turk Street in the Tenderloin district and held them until the police arrived. 

 

[The Deerhunter]

13 hours ago, USNret said:

So because America is worse, we can accept violence in Thailand?  Is that the story here?

Absolutely!!!  Never accept blame.

[samuttodd]

6 hours ago, joecoolfrog said:

 

What Thailand does show without any question is that a heavily armed populace is no defence whatsoever against a military backed government.

It rather puts to bed the oft repeated , clearly spurious , US constitutional claim re ' militias '.

What The United states shows is that a heavily armed populace is the best defense againsta military backed gov't.

 

See: US Revolutionary war

See:  The Battle of Athens

See:  The Bundy Standoff

why was there not a huge confrontation in Virginia about a month back?   The place was loaded with Agent provocateurs,  Antifa,  and Fed Snipers...    It is because many of the patriots came armed.  They (above) knew they'd have their asses handed to them if they tried to stir <deleted> up.

 

"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." is a quote by Isoroku Yamamoto, Commander-in-Chief of the Imperial Japanese Navy during World War II. Of course it was originally stated in Japanese, this is the English translation.

 

Would you rather be armed with firearms when going against the Kings Army,  or a sternly worded letter?  

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2020 by samuttodd

[samuttodd]

Patrick Henry

• “Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.”

George Mason

• “To disarm the people…s the most effectual way to enslave them.”

James Madison

• “The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country.”

“The ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone.”

Noah Webster

• “Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States.”

Samuel Adams

• “The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.”

Richard Henry Lee

• “A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves…and include, according to the past and general usuage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms…  “To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them.”

Thomas Jefferson

• “I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.”

“What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms.” “The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes…. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.” “The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed.”

[joecoolfrog]

40 minutes ago, samuttodd said:

What The United states shows is that a heavily armed populace is the best defense againsta military backed gov't.

 

See: US Revolutionary war

See:  The Battle of Athens

See:  The Bundy Standoff

why was there not a huge confrontation in Virginia about a month back?   The place was loaded with Agent provocateurs,  Antifa,  and Fed Snipers...    It is because many of the patriots came armed.  They (above) knew they'd have their asses handed to them if they tried to stir <deleted> up.

 

"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." is a quote by Isoroku Yamamoto, Commander-in-Chief of the Imperial Japanese Navy during World War II. Of course it was originally stated in Japanese, this is the English translation.

 

Would you rather be armed with firearms when going against the Kings Army,  or a sternly worded letter?  

 

 

 

Well it clearly hasn't worked in Thailand has it. I suppose the USA is different right ( just like everybodies bar girl girlfriends lol)

[samuttodd]

52 minutes ago, joecoolfrog said:

Well it clearly hasn't worked in Thailand has it. I suppose the USA is different right ( just like everybodies bar girl girlfriends lol)

It works every time somebody stops a crime or defends themself with a firearm.  Self defense is your right.  You were given that right from God. 

 

 

[hotchilli]

21 hours ago, webfact said:

Many people in Thailand are questioning the availability of guns

 

21 hours ago, webfact said:

But they conceded that Thailand has problems with a "thriving" grey and black market in guns.

As easy as buying Guay Tiaw !

[roo860]

7 hours ago, oslooskar said:

I doubt that there are any accurate statistics because such cases are most likely never reported to the police. However, in my own case I stopped crime and apprehended criminals several times by pulling my revolver. In San Francisco two individuals were going to mug me at San Bruno Avenue and Dwight but changed their minds when I pulled my revolver. I chased two guys in the Marina district who had just stabbed a guy on Union Street and held them at gunpoint until the police arrived. I saw a man being beaten by a gang of thugs on Market and Jones streets and pulled my revolver and held the ringleader at the scene of the crime until the police arrived. I caught a mugger in the act of mugging an old man at California and Hyde streets and held him at gunpoint until the police arrived. I shot a robber who had just held me up at Hayes and Pierce. I caught two burglars on the back fire escape of the apartment building I was living in and held them at gunpoint until the police arrived. I also caught another burglar on that same fire escape a few months later and held him until the police arrived. (He was wanted in the state of Louisiana.) I chased two muggers on Turk Street in the Tenderloin district and held them until the police arrived. 

 

 

That's a busy day!

[oslooskar]

16 hours ago, USNret said:

Someone else surmised that Americans need weapons in order to stop our unrestrained government.  Such people have no idea what a main battle tank is, or an armed drone.) 

And some people have no idea what a Militia is and what it can do. Bottom-line; Uncle Sam has a very poor track record when going up against armed and well organized Militias. The Viet Cong and Taliban immediately come to mind.

[5633572526]

20 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

This recent massacre is extremely rare in Thailand. I am far more fearful of violence and being shot in the US, than I am here. 

 

Most gun deaths in Thailand are Thai on Thai. Very little violence against foreigners, fortunately. 

So you much like the bib you assume that every foreigner death is a suicide then.

Edited February 14, 2020 by 5633572526

[Baerboxer]

20 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

This recent massacre is extremely rare in Thailand. I am far more fearful of violence and being shot in the US, than I am here. 

 

Most gun deaths in Thailand are Thai on Thai. Very little violence against foreigners, fortunately. 

 

Extremely rare - that might be why the BBC reported it's the first one!

[Baerboxer]

1 hour ago, hotchilli said:

 

As easy as buying Guay Tiaw !

 

Don't believe you. Sorry but I thinks that's another farang urban myth.

 

 

[johnarth]

21 hours ago, Saint Nick said:

What is the point in always looking for the ones, that perform worse than you?

only reason is to point out (we are not so bad) like those farangs save of face again, with lies again

[Angry Dragon]

16 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

There are an awful lot of lower class white people in the US, who are very scary people and capable of nearly anything. It seems like a high percentage of the mass killings are perpetuated by them. 

It might seem like the case, but the statistics don't support it.  Over 50% of homicide victims are black, the vast majority of whom (90%+) are killed by other blacks.

 

A visit to your local walmart will expose you to lots of very scary "lower class" white people, but after a few visits you will find that they are harmless.  Try doing the same thing on the streets of Baltimore, St. Louis, Detroit and you'll likely come to a different conclusion.

[spidermike007]

59 minutes ago, Angry Dragon said:

It might seem like the case, but the statistics don't support it.  Over 50% of homicide victims are black, the vast majority of whom (90%+) are killed by other blacks.

 

A visit to your local walmart will expose you to lots of very scary "lower class" white people, but after a few visits you will find that they are harmless.  Try doing the same thing on the streets of Baltimore, St. Louis, Detroit and you'll likely come to a different conclusion.

Sounds very similar to the whole Thai on Thai type of homicides we see here. Well, if what you are saying is true, I am glad for it, in a sense that if it does not spill over, than so be it. 

 

But, the stats are questionable. Some point to more homicides amongst blacks. But, there are a tremendous number among whites too. 

 

During the 9-year study period, 84,113 homicides and 251,772 suicides occurred. Black–white differences in rates of firearm homicide and suicide varied widely across states. Relative to white men, black men had between 9 and 57 additional firearm homicides per 100,000 per year, with black men in Missouri, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, and Pennsylvania having more than 40 additional firearm homicides per 100 000 per year. White men had between 2 fewer and 16 more firearm suicides per 100,000 per year, with the largest inequalities observed in southern and western states and the smallest in the District of Columbia and densely populated northeastern states.

 

So, the differences appear to be fairly minor, and i am correct to be very, very afraid of some white people in the US!

 

https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2679556/comparison-rates-firearm-nonfirearm-homicide-suicide-black-white-non-hispanic

 

 

 

[patrick1968]

No for Guns !

 

[Thomas J]

On 2/13/2020 at 11:12 AM, webfact said:

Thailand and guns: Media mentions thousands of deaths from gun violence - but the USA is worse

Mark Twain was accurate when he said there are lies, damned lies, and then statistics.  The statistics on gun deaths in the USA don't tell the complete story.  The majority of the gun deaths in the USA are suicide. 
They also fail to indicate that 4% are justifiable, meaning a person killed someone else while defending themselves or it was a police officer killing a criminal.  The last part is 26% are gang related killings.  This is typically inner city rival drug gangs killing each other for territory or revenge.  That leaves less than 3,000 net deaths by murder in a nation of 330 million people.  Statistics can mislead as much as inform. 

https://www.opb.org/news/article/us-gun-deaths-suicides-poll/
 

[hotchilli]

2 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Don't believe you. Sorry but I thinks that's another farang urban myth.

 

 

Most of the gun crimes, domestic or street violence, or drug associated is committed with illegal guns.
Not counting the "homemade variety for those without 5000 baht to go buy one!

And not forgetting the illegal ammunition that's also available....

where do you think it all comes from?

[herwin1234]

"facts and reality". Reality is i live in Thailand more than a decade, i walk the streets day and night, i live in the village and in the city, "reality" is i never saw a gun never saw gun violence. "reality" is, its a damn peaceful society here. 

i guess we need the fake media to rattle up fear and hate, with "statistics". i wonder what the next tv article will be to drag Thailand through the mud..

[oslooskar]

6 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

So, the differences appear to be fairly minor

You might want to have your bifocals adjusted. https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/table-43

[bwpage3]

On 2/13/2020 at 9:26 AM, bergan said:

Get a sports bow. Most shooters with a handgun will not have the know-how nor keep their cool well enough to aim properly, and a sports bow is not illegal. Hone your skills with one of those, and I'd favor you over some lunatic with a handgun. Besides, they're silent and no-one can see a flash.

Kind of hard to hide a bow in your pants!

[bwpage3]

10 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Sounds very similar to the whole Thai on Thai type of homicides we see here. Well, if what you are saying is true, I am glad for it, in a sense that if it does not spill over, than so be it. 

 

But, the stats are questionable. Some point to more homicides amongst blacks. But, there are a tremendous number among whites too. 

 

During the 9-year study period, 84,113 homicides and 251,772 suicides occurred. Black–white differences in rates of firearm homicide and suicide varied widely across states. Relative to white men, black men had between 9 and 57 additional firearm homicides per 100,000 per year, with black men in Missouri, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, and Pennsylvania having more than 40 additional firearm homicides per 100 000 per year. White men had between 2 fewer and 16 more firearm suicides per 100,000 per year, with the largest inequalities observed in southern and western states and the smallest in the District of Columbia and densely populated northeastern states.

 

So, the differences appear to be fairly minor, and i am correct to be very, very afraid of some white people in the US!

 

https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2679556/comparison-rates-firearm-nonfirearm-homicide-suicide-black-white-non-hispanic

 

 

 

Be very afraid of some Thai people as well.

 

Any lunatic can go off the deep end for any reason.

[Orton Rd]

On 2/13/2020 at 11:26 AM, RotBenz8888 said:

And Zimbabwe is worse than Thailand in terms of traffic deaths!

where is that stated? Thailand is significantly higher

[spidermike007]

18 hours ago, oslooskar said:

You might want to have your bifocals adjusted. https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/table-43

Well, 9% higher for blacks when it comes to murder. But, when it comes to rape, embezzlement, robbery, vandalism, and other offenses, white people lead virtually every other category. It is a strange thing. White people have a very hard time owning up to the bad apples within their race. Not sure why. It does not mean we are bad people. It just means there are alot of bad white people out there. What is so hard to accept about that? The race blame game is so tired. 

[chang1]

On 2/14/2020 at 5:46 AM, Thomas J said:

Mark Twain was accurate when he said there are lies, damned lies, and then statistics.  The statistics on gun deaths in the USA don't tell the complete story.  The majority of the gun deaths in the USA are suicide. 
They also fail to indicate that 4% are justifiable, meaning a person killed someone else while defending themselves or it was a police officer killing a criminal.  The last part is 26% are gang related killings.  This is typically inner city rival drug gangs killing each other for territory or revenge.  That leaves less than 3,000 net deaths by murder in a nation of 330 million people.  Statistics can mislead as much as inform. 

https://www.opb.org/news/article/us-gun-deaths-suicides-poll/
 

So many posts to disagree with but this one pretty much sums up why arming civilians is a bad idea.

Nearly 40000 deaths and less than 1600 "justifiable". I wonder how they define justifiable. No mention of how many actually saved lives.

A few seem to think arming people stops a country being invaded or taken over by a bad regime. First of all we are not in the dark ages, second, people will be disarmed first by the government if it wanted to go that way, third, an army will outgun civilians, if your army failed what makes you think you can do better?

Why compare Thailand to the USA and other countries? So that everyone can see how well it is doing. Anyone can quote a number but it is meaningless unless you can tell how it relates to other countries, good and bad.

More guns = more unnecessary deaths (including suicides). 

Are guns good for self defense? - almost never. Are guns good for offense? - almost always. The figures above prove that beyond doubt. If there is a mass shooting happening then a few armed civilians may be useful but not having guns available in the first place would reduce mass shootings far more effectively. 

One last comment on Thomas's post, out of those 3000 murders how many may have also been carried out with other means such as knives? If I was planning to kill someone I would not need a gun. If I have a gun I can easily kill someone who, given time, I would not want to and would later regret. Planned murders are not the main problem, it is the unplanned, easy to accomplish killings and the increase  in ability to cause harm that removing guns would significantly reduce. 

Thailand seems to have more than its share of road rage shootings - how many of them are "justifiable"?

 

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by chang1

[chang1]

On 2/13/2020 at 6:24 PM, oslooskar said:

I doubt that there are any accurate statistics because such cases are most likely never reported to the police. However, in my own case I stopped crime and apprehended criminals several times by pulling my revolver. In San Francisco two individuals were going to mug me at San Bruno Avenue and Dwight but changed their minds when I pulled my revolver. I chased two guys in the Marina district who had just stabbed a guy on Union Street and held them at gunpoint until the police arrived. I saw a man being beaten by a gang of thugs on Market and Jones streets and pulled my revolver and held the ringleader at the scene of the crime until the police arrived. I caught a mugger in the act of mugging an old man at California and Hyde streets and held him at gunpoint until the police arrived. I shot a robber who had just held me up at Hayes and Pierce. I caught two burglars on the back fire escape of the apartment building I was living in and held them at gunpoint until the police arrived. I also caught another burglar on that same fire escape a few months later and held him until the police arrived. (He was wanted in the state of Louisiana.) I chased two muggers on Turk Street in the Tenderloin district and held them until the police arrived. 

 

 

The only burglary I stopped was done with remote viewing of our CCTV and the police turned up before I even got there. Never felt the need to carry any kind of weapon.

You on the other hand talk about actually shooting someone as if it is  normal - what a messed up area you live in. Get out and loose the gun, before you kill someone. Especially as they may be an innocent bystander. 

[chang1]

On 2/13/2020 at 7:12 AM, janetdoe said:

I would own a gun for self defence if the law hadn't changed in 2017. I meet the criteria for legally owning a gun apart from not being Thai. I still want to defend myself if the case arises. I've felt this way after being physically threaten a few months ago. I'm not pro-gun but if the Thai man in the street can legally own one for protection I'd like to too.

And what would you do if someone pulled a gun out on you? You would be shot as soon as they saw you reach for your gun. If you don't look like a threat and act submissivly you are more likely to survive. Which is far more important than losing face or a phone and wallet. 

Don't become part of the problem. 

You were only threatened - a gun would have made the situation worse.

[oslooskar]

8 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Well, 9% higher for blacks when it comes to murder. But, when it comes to rape, embezzlement, robbery, vandalism, and other offenses, white people lead virtually every other category. It is a strange thing.

Truly Amazing! You need to have more than just your bifocals adjusted, you need to take a course in basic math. The White population in the United States is somewhere around 72% percent, whereas, the Black population is around 13%. So, you have a black population of just 13 percent committing 53.1 percent of the homicides. Hence, Whites are underrepresented in all those areas of crime that you referenced, whereas, blacks are overrepresented.  

[oslooskar]

31 minutes ago, chang1 said:

And what would you do if someone pulled a gun out on you? You would be shot as soon as they saw you reach for your gun. If you don't look like a threat and act submissivly you are more likely to survive. Which is far more important than losing face or a phone and wallet. 

Don't become part of the problem. 

You were only threatened - a gun would have made the situation worse.

I would never be so arrogant and irresponsible to advise a law-abiding individual not to have a gun for protection and to act submissively in the face of a criminal threat. After all, you have absolutely no idea what a criminal may or may not do to his victim and you do not know if a gun would have made the situation worse. You're simply talking through your hat because you're self-righteous and it makes you feel good.

[englishoak]

Most Thais worth anything financially I know own at least one gun, many others too. None have a licence btw