Britain's row with Greece over treasures spills into Brexit tensions

[Bluespunk]

9 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Actually, the Elgin marbles are Athenian in origin. And at the time they were created there was no country called Greece. Just a bunch of city-states that spent a lot of time at war with each other. In fact, there really wasn't a country called Greece until the 1820's - over 2000 years later. And while modern day Greeks speak a successor language to what the ancient Athenians spoke, it's vastly different and wouldn't be at all intelligible to the ancients. What's more, the Ancient Athenians were pagans who did things like wrestle naked, composed love poems to boys, and had an economy based on slave labor. Modern Greeks are mostly members of the orthodox church which isn't a big fan of naked men wrestling in public, love poems to boys, or slavery. 

I know the marbles are Athenian in origin and if Athens ever secedes from Greece to become an independent entity I will accept the marbles are in fact Athenian. 
 

I am aware of the nature of the city state history of the area. An area of history I enjoy reading up on. 
 

While I do not share the teachings of the Greek Orthodox Church, I’m not a big fan of slavery myself either. 
 

Naked men wrestling in public...not sure I’d want to see that, but hey, each to their own. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Bluespunk

[Bluespunk]

1 minute ago, sanemax said:

If they were acquired legally by the British museum, the BM are the rightful owners 

No, they’re not. 

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, sanemax said:

If they were acquired legally by the British museum, the BM are the rightful owners 

Parallels with Nazi stolen art?

 

Stolen Art: Who Owns it Often Depends on Whose Law Applies

[sanemax]

14 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Parallels with Nazi stolen art?

 

Stolen Art: Who Owns it Often Depends on Whose Law Applies

I dont think that the Nazis acquired their stolen art legally , so, not comparable 

[Davo369]

Well Greece doesn't have much going for them so I'll say

Give back the marbles, second thoughts <deleted> em 

[sanemax]

19 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

No, they’re not. 

How comes ?

If you acquire an item legally, then you are the rightful owner 

[bristolboy]

22 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

I know the marbles are Athenian in origin and if Athens ever secedes from Greece to become an independent entity I will accept the marbles are in fact Athenian. 
 

I am aware of the nature of the city state history of the area. An area of history I enjoy reading up on. 
 

While I do not share the teachings of the Greek Orthodox Church, I’m not a big fan of slavery myself either. 
 

Naked men wrestling in public...not sure I’d want to see that, but hey, each to their own. 

The point being that before the 1820s Greece was never a country and its cultural connection to ancient Athens is tenuous.

[Bluespunk]

Just now, sanemax said:

How comes ?

If you acquire an item legally, then you are the rightful owner 

The marbles are Greek and therefore only they can sell them.
 

The Greeks want their property back, so they should be returned to them as rightful owners. 

[Bluespunk]

1 minute ago, bristolboy said:

The point being that before the 1820s Greece was never a country and its cultural connection to ancient Athens is tenuous.

The Parthenon is in Athens, the marbles are from the Parthenon, they should be returned to their rightful place, which is in the Greek city of Athens. 

[sanemax]

4 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

The marbles are Greek and therefore only they can sell them.
 

The Greeks want their property back, so they should be returned to them as rightful owners. 

No, Greece wasnt a Country at the time and the rightful owners at the time (Ottomans) had the legal right to do what they wanted to do with them 

[Bluespunk]

12 minutes ago, sanemax said:

No, Greece wasnt a Country at the time and the rightful owners at the time (Ottomans) had the legal right to do what they wanted to do with them 

The Parthenon is in Athens. 
 

Athens is in Greece. 
 

If Athens ever secedes from Greece I will identify the marbles as Athenian. 
 

Until then I will call the Greek. 
 

Return the marbles to their rightful place, in Athens, Greece. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Bluespunk
Spelling

[RuamRudy]

22 minutes ago, sanemax said:

I dont think that the Nazis acquired their stolen art legally , so, not comparable 

Not wholly true - as the article I linked to explains. 

[sanemax]

3 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

The Parthenon is in Athens. 
 

Athens is in Greece. 
 

If Athens ever secedes from Greece I will identify the marbles as Athenian. 
 

Until then I will call the Greek. 
 

Return the marbles to their rightful place, in Athens, Greece. 

If the British  museum acquired the marbles legally, then the British museum is where they right fully belong 

[Bluespunk]

Just now, sanemax said:

If the British  museum acquired the marbles legally, then the British museum is where they right fully belong 

Nope. 

[sanemax]

2 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Nope. 

Yes

[Bluespunk]

Just now, sanemax said:

Yes

Simply repeating your mantra over and over again will not make it any less wrong. 
 

 

[sanemax]

11 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Simply repeating your mantra over and over again will not make it any less wrong. 
 

 

You repeating your mantra over and over again doesnt make you right 

[Bluespunk]

Just now, sanemax said:

You repeating your mantra over and over again doesnt make you right 

Where do the marbles originate from-precisely?

 

In which city is that place-precisely?
 

In which country is that city-precisely?

Work that out and you’ll know precisely where the marbles should be. 
 

The empire is gone and those national treasures taken from other countries in that time should be returned. 

 

[Thongkorn]

Britain will return the marbles which they were lovingly looked after and not smashed in their mother Country, After Britain gets some War reparation from the EU countries, Seems fair to me

Edited February 19, 2020 by Thongkorn

[sanemax]

12 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Where do the marbles originate from-precisely?

 

In which city is that place-precisely?
 

In which country is that city-precisely?

Work that out and you’ll know precisely where the marbles should be. 
 

The empire is gone and those national treasures taken from other countries in that time should be returned. 

 

Where doers your television  come from ?

Which city precisely ?

Find that out and return it back to where it was made

[Bluespunk]

3 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Where doers your television  come from ?

Which city precisely ?

Find that out and return it back to where it was made

That analogy has so little relevance it is laughable. 
 

Any luck on finding the answers to the questions I posed you?

[Sujo]

Bluespunk is correct. It may be legal under an occuppying force to sell anything it wants as it can make the laws at the time.

 

But later laws can override that and make the sale illegal.

 

Mabo and land rights to aborigines in oz comes to mind also.

 

But in effect Bluespunk is correct.

[FritsSikkink]

10 hours ago, RichardColeman said:

Wonder if the EU will put in a demand for all its citizens and migrants back ? Nah, doubt it.

You would be out of qualified doctors and nurses in no time.

[Sujo]

48 minutes ago, Thongkorn said:

Britain will return the marbles which they were lovingly looked after and not smashed in their mother Country, After Britain gets some War reparation from the EU countries, Seems fair to me

I think britain should be paying those reparations.

[sirineou]

7 hours ago, vogie said:

Yes I think it is us that should be pressing for our money back, we were sold a pup.????

 

But how much art did Napolean and the Germans pillage, how much stolen art is still locked away in Swiss vaults, nobody seems very keen to find the rightfull owner of these treasures.

We bought the Marbles!

 

I lost many a good nights sleep after I bought a Renault Megane fearing the French authorities would request its return after a few years, in all honesty it was a little antiquated.

 

Who did you buy it from and did they have the right to sell them? These would be reasonable questions considered in any transaction, Are you sir a reasonable person? 

 

If the French "Napoleon Bonaparte " and or the Germans  "Pillaged" and still hold stolen treasure rightfully belonging to others they also should return it.  Making the excuse that others are thieves also is not a viable defence IMO, what do you think? 

[sirineou]

1 hour ago, Thongkorn said:

Britain will return the marbles which they were lovingly looked after and not smashed in their mother Country, After Britain gets some War reparation from the EU countries, Seems fair to me

I have heard many excuses , I even heard someone say that others are thieves why should we not be also, But I must admit this one is a new one, "we are holding them hostage" .

So let's now add kidnapping charges to thievery. Any other confessions? 

[vogie]

19 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Who did you buy it from and did they have the right to sell them? These would be reasonable questions considered in any transaction, Are you sir a reasonable person? 

 

If the French "Napoleon Bonaparte " and or the Germans  "Pillaged" and still hold stolen treasure rightfully belonging to others they also should return it.  Making the excuse that others are thieves also is not a viable defence IMO, what do you think? 

I think that the British bought these marbles in good faith and there is evidence that without the British taking custody of these artifacts that these works of art would not be available for the rest of the world to appreciate today, they probably would have been destroyed. I'm sure you will concede that there is a difference from buying and pillaging/stealing. 

So are you saying that these items that the British bought should be included in the forth coming negotiations, asking for a friend.

[RuamRudy]

18 minutes ago, vogie said:

I think that the British bought these marbles in good faith and there is evidence that without the British taking custody of these artifacts that these works of art would not be available for the rest of the world to appreciate today, they probably would have been destroyed. I'm sure you will concede that there is a difference from buying and pillaging/stealing. 

So are you saying that these items that the British bought should be included in the forth coming negotiations, asking for a friend.

Is there a receipt to prove the transaction? This is from Wikipedia, which suggests not:

 

"From 1801 to 1812, agents of Thomas Bruce, 7th Earl of Elgin removed about half of the surviving sculptures of the Parthenon, as well as sculptures from the Propylaea and Erechtheum. The Marbles were transported by sea to Britain. Elgin later claimed to have obtained in 1801 an official decree (a firman) from the Sublime Porte, the central government of the Ottoman Empire which were then the rulers of Greece. This firman has not been found in the Ottoman archives despite its wealth of documents from the same period and its veracity is disputed.

...

"Elgin intended to use the marbles to decorate Broomhall House, his private home near Dunfermline in Scotland, but a costly divorce suit forced him to sell them to settle his debts."

 

So it looks like it wasn't even, originally, bought by the British government, but 'acquired' by a dodgy Scotsman, who later sold them on. 

[sirineou]

19 minutes ago, vogie said:

I think that the British bought these marbles in good faith and there is evidence that without the British taking custody of these artifacts that these works of art would not be available for the rest of the world to appreciate today, they probably would have been destroyed. I'm sure you will concede that there is a difference from buying and pillaging/stealing. 

So are you saying that these items that the British bought should be included in the forth coming negotiations, asking for a friend.

Exactly how ere they purchased? How much was paid? is there a bill of sale? 

"The Marbles were transported by sea to Britain. Elgin later claimed to have obtained in 1801 an official decree (a firman)[5] from the Sublime Porte, the central government of the Ottoman Empire which were then the rulers of Greece. This firman has not been found in the Ottoman archives despite its wealth of documents from the same period[6] and its veracity is disputed"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elgin_Marbles

           Greece thanks Britain very very much for the safekeeping of their property , now please give it back , because if you don't, it is not safe keeping it is theft. 

[sirineou]

7 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Is there a receipt to prove the transaction? This is from Wikipedia, which suggests not:

 

"From 1801 to 1812, agents of Thomas Bruce, 7th Earl of Elgin removed about half of the surviving sculptures of the Parthenon, as well as sculptures from the Propylaea and Erechtheum. The Marbles were transported by sea to Britain. Elgin later claimed to have obtained in 1801 an official decree (a firman) from the Sublime Porte, the central government of the Ottoman Empire which were then the rulers of Greece. This firman has not been found in the Ottoman archives despite its wealth of documents from the same period and its veracity is disputed.

...

"Elgin intended to use the marbles to decorate Broomhall House, his private home near Dunfermline in Scotland, but a costly divorce suit forced him to sell them to settle his debts."

 

So it looks like it wasn't even, originally, bought by the British government, but 'acquired' by a dodgy Scotsman, who later sold them on. 

It seems you beat me to it.