If your best bet is asking for ventilators your country is so <deleted>.

9 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Tbh, i doubt things like corona can be prevented, moreover it's not impossible that it has been created on purpose.

They are starting to test a vaccine, but maybe next year when it is available.

1 minute ago, Basil B said:

They are starting to test a vaccine, but maybe next year when it is available.

Whatever, i hope we'll see soon the end of this nightmare, i'm starting to get bored with the madness, and i'm afraid it's just the beginning.

4 minutes ago, Basil B said:

What a joke, do they realise just what is involved.

 

1st a design. then it is unlikely any company can make all the components, let alone medical grade, so this needs to be an open sources very basic, no frills design, with specialist companies tendering to make the components.

All the disposable components are made from plastic ie OIL, which the climate change people want to stop being pumped. Bet they change their minds now.

Much of the machines are also made from plastic, as are all syringes, IV components, instruments, etc. Hospitals use vast amounts of oil based items.

So <deleted> ! Yes this was today...

 

Edited March 16, 20206 yr by spiekerjozef

23 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Good example. They'll spend untold on a machine that doesn't save a single life, but nothing on preventing things like Corona.

Anyone who does not think that experimental science with no immediate is important, should reconsider it next time he flips the switch to turn on the lights. Just because we do one, does not mean we should not do the other.  

 

  

Edited March 16, 20206 yr by sirineou

17 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Tbh, i doubt things like corona can be prevented, moreover it's not impossible that it has been created on purpose.

I've been saying for ages that Gaia is going to do something about overpopulation, so, perhaps Gaia created Corona and Ebola and SARS and Swine flue etc etc etc.

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Anyone who does not think that experimental science with no immediate is important, should reconsider it next time he flips the switch to turn on the lights. Just because we do one, does not mean we should not do the other.  

 

  

I never said it was one or the other. They should do both.

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Sooooo, they make loads of ventilators, then where are all the nurses to operate all the new ventilators going to come from? Does the government think loads of nurses qualified to operate ventilators are just hanging around waiting for the call?

You train them. Concentrated specific training. Of course it could be done, if those in charge were prepared to get a grip and rise to the challenge. We're not talking about eroding their professional standards, or heaven help us professional status, we're talking about meeting a very particular challenge, we can worry about professional standards and status once it is done. If anything, rising to and meeting the challenge will strengthen their professional status in the future.

 

The same is true for manufacturing. Of course we could make the bloody things - they are not that complicated. If our manufacturing concerns met that challenge I suspect that they could have them rolling off the production lines within weeks.

 

Start by slotting the "Health and Safety" blokes!

Edited March 16, 20206 yr by JAG

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I've been saying for ages that Gaia is going to do something about overpopulation, so, perhaps Gaia created Corona and Ebola and SARS and Swine flue etc etc etc.

Yes, overpopulation is a real problem, and the root of many other problems.

Actually it's not the virus who scares me, but what will be the reaction of billions of people to the huge economic crashes, which will be inevitable if this situation lasts for half a year ?

11 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I never said it was one or the other. They should do both.

Sorry if I misunderstood. 

I agree with you. 

31 minutes ago, spiekerjozef said:

So <deleted> ! Yes this was today...

 

Where is that?

When this is all over, and, God willing, most of us have survived, then perhaps it will be time to take a long hard look at how we manage our society. Personally, whilst I believe in the effectiveness of free markets, some things are more important, and beyond, market forces. The fight against this virus is a classic example. So make the ventilators, train people to use them, and worry about the possible consequences afterwards. Personally I would rather, if I needed it, far rather be cared for by a teenage St Johns cadet with a few days training than be told to <deleted> off until a bed was available.

 

Be aware that this post has been made after several Sangsom Sodas!

7 minutes ago, DaveE13 said:

Where is that?

Marathon in Bath - UK

9 minutes ago, spiekerjozef said:

Marathon in Bath - UK

And it went ahead today? Bloody hell

Just googled 6200 participants.the organisers said they didn't see a problem with putting it on!

 

All EPl and EFL football cancelled buts it's ok to put on a half marathon?

Edited March 16, 20206 yr by DaveE13

2 hours ago, spiekerjozef said:

Marathon in Bath - UK

 

Jesus! At the very very least they could have staggered the start!

I heard that the Britsh Government bought land to be able to burry all the dead from that virus. Yes you could call it pragmatic..... I think the way the UK deals with the Virus is worse or similar to Thailand. The UK will end up same or worse then Italy, that is actually clear already looking at statistics. And yes even specialized hospitals already run out of ventilators and have not even had a number of cases. But yeah all those  old people that voted for this Johnson nutter to leave the EU for a better life will soon feel what it means....in my opinion the UK and the US, Thailand and Japan are dealing inresponsible with the issues and they will face the consequences on this soon. BTW Mr. J and Mr. T seem to be brothers(?)

Edited March 16, 20206 yr by OKF

11 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

They can make all the ventilators they like- that's not what I'm commenting on. I just don't like that the impression is being given that if there are enough machines everything will be OK. Nurses have been given the short end for years and now they are going to be expected to work miracles- that's not OK with me.

 

The way things are, nursing robots would be a good idea.

Britain is no stranger to death, plague or hard times, seems the experience is about to be had all over again. Many will die, thats been imo unavoidable since the outbreak in China, I believe the UK Gov has known this all along, probably a couple of my close family members should they get it, maybe me, the rest will go on

 

They will cope because there is no option....id rather have a ventilator than none, they can train students for a one task function easily enough and the thats all there is to it... sometimes you have to work with what youve got, no matter how little moaning about it wont help anyone now. 

 

The gov dosnt have a magic wand I think most here understand that. The majority will survive this storm. and we are already setting up street help groups for the elderly, shopping, tasks support etc all over the country, the people will help each other in these coming hard times and end up stronger and bonded through shared hardship as they always have.

 

Crying or complaining wont help anyone, only care and combined effort will. We will grieve when this is over. May you and your loved ones all stay safe and well

 

Edited March 16, 20206 yr by englishoak

8 hours ago, JAG said:

You train them. Concentrated specific training. Of course it could be done, if those in charge were prepared to get a grip and rise to the challenge. We're not talking about eroding their professional standards, or heaven help us professional status, we're talking about meeting a very particular challenge, we can worry about professional standards and status once it is done. If anything, rising to and meeting the challenge will strengthen their professional status in the future.

 

The same is true for manufacturing. Of course we could make the bloody things - they are not that complicated. If our manufacturing concerns met that challenge I suspect that they could have them rolling off the production lines within weeks.

 

Start by slotting the "Health and Safety" blokes!

I thought I explained why it's not a good idea to just train a load of people to do a specific task that is normally done by people trained over years to look after sick people. To use the pilot example again, it's possible to train people to fly a plane quite easily, but would you want to fly in a plane when the pilot does not know what to do in an emergency? Anyone could be trained quite quickly to do many surgical procedures, but real surgeons know what to do when it all goes wrong.

Do you really want your elderly parents on a ventilator being operated by someone that only knows how to operate the machine and has no clue about nursing care?

 

It's possible that such a situation is being dealt with and more are being trained to use respirators as I write, but I have not heard if that is the case. It's certainly not going to work if they wait till it's all turned to doodoo and they suddenly decide it would be a good idea to have more ventilator operators.

 

Anyone that wants to know what it could be like in their country should read up on what is happening in Italy- it's turned into a disaster in hospitals with many staff infected and in isolation..

24 minutes ago, englishoak said:

they can train students for a one task function easily enough and the thats all there is to it.

Hmmmmm. The ( nursing ) students might have other ideas about that. After all they should actually know something about what is involved. I'd be interested to know if they are trying to get retired nurses to be prepared to work in hospitals if it does go wrong, though many were so happy to get out of the NHS that they may be reluctant to go back.

29 minutes ago, englishoak said:

They will cope because there is no option.

and people will have to accept that they may not get a ventilator because it's not possible. Check out what is happening in Italy.

Oh dear, the UK may have to buy them from the EU, manufacturing inefficiencies showing up already, never mind, as yet there will be no customs snarl up

8 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Yes, overpopulation is a real problem, and the root of many other problems.

Actually it's not the virus who scares me, but what will be the reaction of billions of people to the huge economic crashes, which will be inevitable if this situation lasts for half a year ?

Agree 100%. all the restrictions may save many, but ruin the economies of the world to the extent that many more will be reduced to poverty, and then it'll really .

1 minute ago, soalbundy said:

Oh dear, the UK may have to buy them from the EU, manufacturing inefficiencies showing up already, never mind, as yet there will be no customs snarl up

It's hard to remember that the industrial revolution started in Britain and Britain probably led the world in manufacturing till at least WW1. Seems they were so keen to destroy industry in Britain post WW2 that they can't really make much at all any more. Don't make their own cars, don't make ships, don't make planes without other countries helping. Rather sad, really.

8 hours ago, DaveE13 said:

And it went ahead today? Bloody hell

Just googled 6200 participants.the organisers said they didn't see a problem with putting it on!

 

All EPl and EFL football cancelled buts it's ok to put on a half marathon?

Got to keep a stiff upper lip you know ...  after all the Brits build an empire ... ???? ...

41 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I thought I explained why it's not a good idea to just train a load of people to do a specific task that is normally done by people trained over years to look after sick people. To use the pilot example again, it's possible to train people to fly a plane quite easily, but would you want to fly in a plane when the pilot does not know what to do in an emergency? Anyone could be trained quite quickly to do many surgical procedures, but real surgeons know what to do when it all goes wrong.

Do you really want your elderly parents on a ventilator being operated by someone that only knows how to operate the machine and has no clue about nursing care?

 

It's possible that such a situation is being dealt with and more are being trained to use respirators as I write, but I have not heard if that is the case. It's certainly not going to work if they wait till it's all turned to doodoo and they suddenly decide it would be a good idea to have more ventilator operators.

 

Anyone that wants to know what it could be like in their country should read up on what is happening in Italy- it's turned into a disaster in hospitals with many staff infected and in isolation..

My point remains, in extreme circumstances - and after all that is what we are facing - then something less than the gold standard which you describe is far, far better than nothing. This applies to both personnel and equipment.

 

Yes you have explained your point, I have put forward an argument for specific action in these particular circumstances. I am not suggesting that experienced fully trained nurses are replaced by emergency trained staff - supplemented!

Edited March 17, 20206 yr by JAG

8 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

and people will have to accept that they may not get a ventilator because it's not possible. Check out what is happening in Italy.

 

I know all this, people are going to die en mass, my mother  too possibly, at 94 with serious respiratory conditions has already said she will refuse a ventilator and let another younger have a chance .. Id rather is wasnt going to be this way but it is what it is,, we are out of time  Now is a time for action and focus or many more will perish. 

 

Like I said there are no other options, these are not normal or ideal conditions mate, id rather not get involved but my family are here so I already am,  im well prepared with full PPE and put in measures for this expected outcome long since so i have an advantage over other shmos who have until now been in denial or thinking it will blow over, it will but not without cost and time... so Im putting in my time and effort to my community while hoping the cost will be minimal and will take things one day at a time. 

 

And I am not alone, already out local community have  300 + locals signed on with various skills. large part as we have a good few care homes close is to protect those and take on the fetch and carry roles enabling the carers, nurses and medical staff to prioritise their time better... 3 local cabbies signed on to do local pick ups for any medical staff free. It is this combined selfless effort that will get us through and do what we can to ease the stress on medical staff in any way possible, which we all know is going to be massive. 

 

 

8 hours ago, JAG said:

So make the ventilators, train people to use them, and worry about the possible consequences afterwards. Personally I would rather, if I needed it, far rather be cared for by a teenage St Johns cadet with a few days training than be told to <deleted> off until a bed was available.

Fortunately for the potential patients, that should never be allowed by the authorities. Would you fly in a plane piloted by a teenage St Johns cadet with a few days training? Trained health care workers know how to look after sick people, teenage St Johns cadet with a few days training do not. All that would happen is that they would themselves get infected and increase the burden on hospitals.

Seems to me that most people have no idea what is involved in nursing care from their rare visit to a hospital. People don't spend years as students because it is so easy to look after sick people.

8 minutes ago, JAG said:

I am not suggesting that experienced fully trained nurses are replaced by emergency trained staff - supplemented!

All help would be very much appreciated I'm sure.

10 minutes ago, JAG said:

something less than the gold standard which you describe is far, far better than nothing.

I agree, but for basic nursing care only. It just would not work, IMO, to have untrained people in a highly technical area of nursing care. TV shows about hospitals make it look so easy that many probably have little idea of what is really involved. They show people with a tube in their mouth and a machine with a screen and lines on it- looks simple, but actually looking after someone on a ventilator involves far far more than just twiddling knobs. The patient has to be looked after as well as the machine, and that's the hard part. Machines are easy, people are not.