Lifestyle & Language

[jbsears]

6. You can appreciate Thai music, movies, comedy, news, opinions etc in a way that a non Thai speaker cannot

I don't know if becoming fluent could make anybody appreciate a Thai comedy. I think anybody who watches a Thai comedy is dumber afterward.

[bangkokrick]

IMPORTANT: For all forum members fluent, proficient, or just knowing how to speak Thai fairly well-- be aware that those less fortunate than yourselves may be somewhat bitter and not open to the idea that their lack of such skills may put them at a disadvantage in some areas. In future, please refrain from making any comments that might imply that having a good grounding in Thai might offer any advantages, lest the aforementioned group take offence.

You obviously did not read my post.

Obviously, since it was posted (22:28:47) as I was composing my reply, posted 10 minutes after yours. Not sure what your point is anyway, since you don't seem to fit into the 'bitter' category I was referring to.

Must have crossed over, but then it must have taken me 14 minutes to write it because i saw that your post was already there.

No i dont fall into that category at all but i do admire fluent speakers in any language and this should not make anyone feel bitter or disadvantaged. As i mentioned in my previous post it is not imperative that we farang speak Thai fluently.

Cheers, Rick

Hi Rick, I think we are pretty much on the same wavelength here. I too do not think it is necessary for all farang to speak Thai fluently in order to enjoy life here. I think the point made by some others can be summed up as the more Thai you know the better, and that a good grasp of the language can really make a difference in the life you experience. This is true for any language, not just Thai.

I agree wholeheartedly Qualtrough and i do think that there is a lot of snobbery involved in this subject. I really cringe when some farang greet me in Thai knowing full well that i am English. It's a bit over the top in my opinion. Anyway live and let live each to their own.

Cheers, Rick

[qualtrough]

IMPORTANT: For all forum members fluent, proficient, or just knowing how to speak Thai fairly well-- be aware that those less fortunate than yourselves may be somewhat bitter and not open to the idea that their lack of such skills may put them at a disadvantage in some areas. In future, please refrain from making any comments that might imply that having a good grounding in Thai might offer any advantages, lest the aforementioned group take offence.

Again you are assuming that anyone who doesn't speak Thai is less fortunate than those that do. No offense but your posts read very negatively, if you can't argue a case then don't post, rather than just post sly remarks trying unsuccessfully to sound clever.

I can speak Thai "Fairly well", I'm certainly not fluent which is the automatic understanding, comprehension and free flow of conversation in accent without thinking about it, saying anything incorrectly and completely understanding the context. I think I've met perhaps one non-Thai person who is truly fluent in Thai.

My post above was aimed at those like yourself that seem to feel that those who feel that a good knowledge of a language can contribute to someone's appreciation and enjoyment of a country is a slight to those who are not quite there yet. There is a group of farangs who do live in a 'bubble' and their view of Thailand is often not very positive for that very reason. You seem to have included yourself in that group and taken offense.

As for fluency, it was unfortunate that the OP chose to use the term 'fluent', which is indeed a level not attained by many foreigners here, myself included. But if you read the entire post it is clear that he is referring to those who have a grasp of the language sufficient to allow them to participant in most activities in Thai. None of the follow-up posters that indicated the positive aspects of knowing Thai well referred to their own abilities as 'fluent.'

When I meet farangs whose abilities in Thai exceed my own I admire them and hope one day to emulate their success. You, on the other hand, seem to have a contempt for them based on envy. If that works for you, fine.

[solo siam]

The most cringeworthy is seeing two farangs wai each other when no Thais are around.

I may be coming across wrong here, I just find that some hold elitest attitudes that grind on my nerves, that only they know the real Thailand, that you have to be here for X years to understand, that what everyone else experiences is fake or unreal because they are not fluent in Thai, one poster even suggested that nobody should be allowed a visa if they didn't speak Thai.

Qualtrough, surely if I envied someone that much I would go and simply learn more Thai? I'd simply rather do other things because they are more important to me, bring me greater satisfaction and I know that learning a little bit more Thai won't bring me any extra secret happiness, or fulfill me in any way. I'm happy where I am thanks - but I am allowed a point of view.

My view of Thailand is that it is a wonderful place, I am very happy here and enjoy each new day and challenge - I meet people from all walks of life and enjoy their friendship - I live a quality of life that I understand I could never get back in the UK or any other place. I never have run-ins with Thais, have never had a bad experience with the police or any other authority that I couldn't smile and enjoy in one way or another, I simply understand that knowing a little bit more Thai won't improve what I have or have gained from being in Thailand in any way. If that makes me negative in your topsy-turvey world then so be it, I won't argue with you anymore as its starting to get boring.

Edited April 9, 2007 by Ben@H3-Digital

[qwertz]

The most cringeworthy is seeing two farangs wai each other when no Thais are around.

I may be coming across wrong here, I just find that some hold elitest attitudes that grind on my nerves, that only they know the real Thailand, that you have to be here for X years to understand, that what everyone else experiences is fake or unreal because they are not fluent in Thai, one poster even suggested that nobody should be allowed a visa if they didn't speak Thai.

You've met them too. There are many who only found "superiority" and an aim in life in LOS but it's superficial; these types are usually those who couldn't hack it in their own culture. They forget that most of them, the men at least, started off as sex tourists and have been "converted" to Thai spritualism along the way. However, most of the farangs I know who've taken the trouble to learn Thai are expats who found it necessary to be able to communicate; these are usually modest about it and don't use it to look down on others.

[bangkokrick]

The most cringeworthy is seeing two farangs wai each other when no Thais are around.

I may be coming across wrong here, I just find that some hold elitest attitudes that grind on my nerves, that only they know the real Thailand, that you have to be here for X years to understand, that what everyone else experiences is fake or unreal because they are not fluent in Thai, one poster even suggested that nobody should be allowed a visa if they didn't speak Thai.

Qualtrough, surely if I envied someone that much I would go and simply learn more Thai? I'd simply rather do other things because they are more important to me, bring me greater satisfaction and I know that learning a little bit more Thai won't bring me any extra secret happiness, or fulfill me in any way. I'm happy where I am thanks - but I am allowed a point of view.

My view of Thailand is that it is a wonderful place, I am very happy here and enjoy each new day and challenge - I meet people from all walks of life and enjoy their friendship - I live a quality of life that I understand I could never get back in the UK or any other place. I never have run-ins with Thais, have never had a bad experience with the police or any other authority that I couldn't smile and enjoy in one way or another, I simply understand that knowing a little bit more Thai won't improve what I have or have gained from being in Thailand in any way. If that makes me negative in your topsy-turvey world then so be it, I won't argue with you anymore as its starting to get boring.

I like the Wai thing as i assume it means that we meet as friends and respect each other, but i would never do this in farang only company. I suppose its like the hand shake whereby in the old days if you shake the right hand niether can stick a sword in your gut.

The main thing is in my opinion to communicate as best you can in whatever country and whatever language. I have been known to draw pictures to achieve this in the past. It all adds to the fun and the 'difference'

Cheers Rick

[misterme]

O.K., I need some comments/advice here...

I have been trying to learn Thai for almost two years now. I took a 6 week intensive Thai class from a local university. I hired a tutor for 6 hours per week. I set aside two hours each morning and evening to study Thai. I practice when I can at the market, with my Thai friends, on the phone...all seemingly to no avail.

I know I am not stupid or a bad student. I got through 4 years of undergraduate college, then a master's then 4 more years graduate school for a doctorate, so I know how to study...or so I thought.

The only response I get when I try to speak Thai to a native-speaker it seems is a puzzled look and finally resorting to English or sign language. A close Thai friend said, Kit (my nickname) you understand pretty good but you speak not so well.

I do have a physical disability which makes it difficult for me to enunciate words and the tones are killers for me.

Any advice. Oh, and forget handwriting Thai, my disability affects my fine motor movements so handwriting English is almost impossible, let alone Thai.

Serious suggestions please. How long did it take you to learn? What am I doing wrong?

You've come to a point that many of us were at. The answer is really quite simple.

And easier than it first sounds.

Learning to Read Thai will get you through this roadblock.

I'm not talking about reading books. But with the initial grasp of Thai reading under your belf, you'll be able to see how the words should be spoken as a Thai would hear it.

Reading Thai is easier than english. The trouble is that it is more intimidating for us.

Each symbol only has one sound (as opposed to english where the rules of pronunciation seem to change with each example). That's why they need many more symbols, because each of them is unique.

Give it a try. I found Thai Karaoke videos helped to get me started with reading thier language. Hope you find your way through the frustration of grasping their speech...

I still get the puzzled look when I try to say certain words. It's my clue to re-learn that word. I learned it wrong the first time.

[Bredbury Blue]

The most cringeworthy is seeing two farangs wai each other when no Thais are around.

I may be coming across wrong here, I just find that some hold elitest attitudes that grind on my nerves, that only they know the real Thailand, that you have to be here for X years to understand, that what everyone else experiences is fake or unreal because they are not fluent in Thai, one poster even suggested that nobody should be allowed a visa if they didn't speak Thai.

Qualtrough, surely if I envied someone that much I would go and simply learn more Thai? I'd simply rather do other things because they are more important to me, bring me greater satisfaction and I know that learning a little bit more Thai won't bring me any extra secret happiness, or fulfill me in any way. I'm happy where I am thanks - but I am allowed a point of view.

My view of Thailand is that it is a wonderful place, I am very happy here and enjoy each new day and challenge - I meet people from all walks of life and enjoy their friendship - I live a quality of life that I understand I could never get back in the UK or any other place. I never have run-ins with Thais, have never had a bad experience with the police or any other authority that I couldn't smile and enjoy in one way or another, I simply understand that knowing a little bit more Thai won't improve what I have or have gained from being in Thailand in any way. If that makes me negative in your topsy-turvey world then so be it, I won't argue with you anymore as its starting to get boring.

Well done Ben! Read your posts and you argued a good case - i and the majority of expats i know here (and probably the majority of those i don't know) are in a very similar situation to yourself. I have been here 15 years, lived virtually all the time in BKK, work in an offices where most thai's i deal with speak english (even the maid here speaks english!), married to a thai for a decade, kids, house, etc, and while i did learn thai in my early years (lessons at YMCA / YWCA, private studying) and could speak enough to converse and be understood ok (and read a little, but slooooowly), since i met my wife (who speaks several languages) and tends to 'take care' when we're out together, my thai fluency has got worse. I would like to be fluent in thai, but some how i don't see it happening for various reasons. It was helpful when i could converse better but do feel i'm missing out cause i can't speak fluent thai? Not really. It would be helpful sometimes with the rello's and other situations but i think as long as you learn the basic language to get you by and get you over the 'thai hump' then while its a bonus to speak thai fluently its not entirely necessary. It comes down to ones personal circumstances really. And how many farlangs fluent in thai have i met in all that time, definatley no more than a handful.

It would make a good study wouldn't it, to research who is fluent and their circumstances. I would hazard a guess that the ones who are fluent tend to live upcountry more than BKK, maybe married to a thai not fluent in english, maybe have something to do with teaching and particularly university life...

[Crow Boy]

If you don't learn to speak Thai, how will you be high-handed and condescending to others who don't speak it fluently.

I've been here 5 years and don't speak fluently, I'd like to but between the family, staff and businesses I just don't have time to learn - I'd rather spend my time keeping up with technology which enables me to earn a good salary and look after my family nicely, learning Thai wouldn't make me any more money or any happier here, I'll probably be fluent one day but would never rub it in people's faces who are not.

To suggest that people who aren't fluent in Thai don't know the REAL Thailand, Shouldn't be issued Visas, get ripped off, aren't respected, don't understand any Thai people and won't experience true friendship or relationships is verging on the ludicrous and is certainly insulting to those who have great friendships, family, relationships and an enjoyable, amiable life here.

Its sometimes the misunderstandings, getting lost, having Thais trying out their English, that can often make situations fun.

Ok lets make a couple of assumptions for illustrative purposes only:

1) Itsara (boys name) lives in Thailand and speaks Thai - he is happy and able to converse with friends, family, and makes money in his business

2) Itsara moves to the United States where he starts a new business

3) He can not speak English but intends to learn "one day" but he is busy with his business and knows many Thai people who he can have a conversation whenever he needs and they will help him deal with the banks, immigration, lawers, rental agencies, suppliers, etc

How hard do you think it is going to be for him?

Howe much of America will he really know and understand?

How many Americans will say "hey this is America learn to speak English"

How many Americans will say "###### foreigners come here and don't even learn to speak English"

Yes you can survive and yes you can have a pleasant life here without learning Thai but you will always be ignorant of the real Thailand because you can't understand the language. You will always be an outsider. You will always be reliant on a Thai friend/partner to deal with the 100 things every day that speaking good Thai will make much easier.

You say you have lived here for five years - good luck and good fortune but if a Thai did that in any other country we would say that is "typical of Thai laziness to not bother learning" We would see forums on Thai Visa about how "they never bother to assimilate" "they live in communitites with their own kind" "they can't speak so when they want something they just point and grunt like monkeys"

Oh and in case you are wondering these are conversations I have with my Thai friends in Thai who ask me why Farung who live here don't speak Thai

Oh and to address your retort about "suggesting having to learn Thai to get a visa is ludercrous" - check the details with your Embassy on the requirements for foreigners to get a visa to work and live.

CB

[ColPyat]

I don't understand the antagonism towards foreigners speaking Thai.

Some non Thai speakers claimed here in this thread that speaking Thai would not significantly expand their knowledge and experience of Thailand, how would they know? Sorry, but this is rubbish. You may be content not speaking Thai, up to you, but making claims about something you have no personal experience about is exactly what you accuse you opponents of - arrogance.

If you can speak Thai, you will be able to take part in all sorts of discussion about all topics, political, social, etc, with people from a wide spectrum of society (yes, people do discuss these sort of things, and you will be amazed how many openly discuss critical topics that otherwise are known to be tabu topics). You will be able to access first hand information that otherwise you wouldn't be able to. People who otherwise would be friendly but reserved will give you access to things that you would not be given to when not being able to speak Thai.

The more my Thai improves the more this place opens itself up to me, and after nearly two decades here i am still on a steep learning curve. Refusing to learn Thai would have limited my experience to the superficial, the way it stays with many cultures here where i do not speak the languages.

For some that may be enough, up to them, not for me though.

This is not about trying to be more Thai than Thais, making Wais where one shouldn't, or bragging about ones language skills by speaking Thai with fellow westerners, but being able to function within Thai society when necessary. It's about earning, showing and receiving respect.

You don't need to speak Thai to make money here, or have a business, but if you want to get more than a superficial understanding of the culture and the people here - you need to speak Thai as good as you can. You don't need to be 'fluent' (what fluent consists of is anyhow debatable), but at least you should make an effort.

[dumspero]

This is a great topic.

Have to agree with the suggestion about Thais in the US. Lived with and around Thais in four states with visits to maybe six others. Those Thais who never learned English may have enjoyed their lives, but obviously they would have had a richer, broader and deeper enjoyment if they had been able to get around reasonably well in English (e.g. going places and doing things with their kids, who by the way also tend to turn on their parents when the kids reach adolescence if the parents can't speak English). Admittedly just my anecdotal experience, but believe it's accurate.

But also have to agree with the language snobs who are far more prevalent than many posters admit. We all know the type. They accost you in bars, hotels, shops, etc. with their allegedly far superior Thai. I often find that many have Thai as bad as mine (I'm maybe a 1.5 or 2 on a scale of 1 to 5; can speak, understand, read and write a little, but mostly from univiersity in the US). I know my Thai is shit, but these guys act like theirs is so good. No, more often they sound like bar girls with speech impediments and retardation following a tragic overdose or accident or some such. Again, we all know the type.

Like others, I've come across maybe a half dozen people who sound fluent to me--the kind of people who can translate difficult sentences re science, politics, etc. The rest, short of admitting their true level, are just posers.

Great to learn, and of course one sees more and more dimensions of Thailand the more one learns, but the snobs are too much.

[Furbie]

I don't understand the antagonism towards foreigners speaking Thai...

Believe it or not, there are actually a number (though not to large a number) of people here that are very antagonistic to those that speak Thai. Some have even gone so far as to ask why I wasted my time to learn it in the fist place - "I have been here 20 years and get by fine on hello and I go Soi Cow Boy." You must be very proud sir.

The other problem I have is why do people get so upset when two Westerners speak Thai to each other - I thought we were in Thailand? In my family, my father and his brothers converse in English and their native language all the time, going back and forth. Should people look at them funny for speaking to each other in English as it is not their first language? Or does this strange rule only apply to Thai and other Asian languages?

While I speak Thai well, and can read and write fairly well, I would never consider myself fluent. Thai is a really tough language to speak fluently, and the many, many opportunities to live your life in English (UBC TV, a fairly large English speaking business and service population, a large Western expat population) all contribute to making fluency a difficult goal to achieve - not to mention the written language is different than the spoken language, and the regional dialects causing confusion.

However, I am surprised to hear people say you can truly absorb and learn the culture and people without speaking the language at a fairly high level. If someone you know said, I understand the Spanish people, I understand their culture, and I lived there for 20 years - all while not speaking Spanish, you would give no weight to their "cultural knowledge" and you would probably think they were a little slow for not picking up the language. The problem, of course, is that it is really tough to "pick up" Thai. You really need to apply yourself and continue to do so. My Thai abilities were actually better a couple of years ago than today. The lanague remains a challenge.

[Bredbury Blue]

Ok lets make a couple of assumptions for illustrative purposes only:

1) Itsara (boys name) lives in Thailand and speaks Thai - he is happy and able to converse with friends, family, and makes money in his business

2) Itsara moves to the United States where he starts a new business

3) He can not speak English but intends to learn "one day" but he is busy with his business and knows many Thai people who he can have a conversation whenever he needs and they will help him deal with the banks, immigration, lawers, rental agencies, suppliers, etc

How hard do you think it is going to be for him?

Howe much of America will he really know and understand?

How many Americans will say "hey this is America learn to speak English"

How many Americans will say "###### foreigners come here and don't even learn to speak English"

Yes you can survive and yes you can have a pleasant life here without learning Thai but you will always be ignorant of the real Thailand because you can't understand the language. You will always be an outsider. You will always be reliant on a Thai friend/partner to deal with the 100 things every day that speaking good Thai will make much easier.

You say you have lived here for five years - good luck and good fortune but if a Thai did that in any other country we would say that is "typical of Thai laziness to not bother learning" We would see forums on Thai Visa about how "they never bother to assimilate" "they live in communitites with their own kind" "they can't speak so when they want something they just point and grunt like monkeys"

Oh and in case you are wondering these are conversations I have with my Thai friends in Thai who ask me why Farung who live here don't speak Thai

Oh and to address your retort about "suggesting having to learn Thai to get a visa is ludercrous" - check the details with your Embassy on the requirements for foreigners to get a visa to work and live.

CB

Err something seems a little off with your example, however in answer to your questions:

1. How hard do you think it is going to be for him?

He will probably be able to survive but will have a harder time not speaking English in the USA (or anywhere outside Thailand) than English speaking non-Thai speakers will have here in Thailand.

2. How many Americans will say "hey this is America learn to speak English"? 3. How many Americans will say "###### foreigners come here and don't even learn to speak English"?

Most. But I’d hazard a guess that the difference is that most Thai’s here do not expect English speaking non-Thai speakers and non-English speaking non-Thai speakers to speak Thai although they do appreciate it when they do – think most Thai’s are realistic enough to realise that Thai is only spoken here (and understood in parts of Laos) so they don’t expect the rest of the world to learn their language, whereas English is THE world’s language and you would be hard pressed to find a Thai who doesn’t want to learn some English or even to be fluent in English. I would also add, how many times have you tried talking in Thai to a Thai and they repeatedly respond in English? – why is that, because there’s a lot of importance (and show) in being able to speak the engerlish.

Err what was your point again?

[kiakaha]

Didn't know whether to post this here or in the language section but I decided here because it is not about advice on learning Thai, more about advice on the benefits of learning Thai FLUENTLY. (mods : sorry if not in correct area :-)

I have lived in LOS for a few years and am now back in the UK. I would come over for a year or more at a time and spend about 6 months - 1 year back in the UK. I know it is not an ideal way to go about things but I am planning on changing all that. Basically my question is thus : what are the benefits of speaking Thai fluently as opposed to just quite well apart from the obvious fact that you can communicate a lot better and immerse yourself in the culture at a deeper level.

Would it help you find work? I know of people speaking fluent Japanese and getting good money from translating etc.

I am not in a great rush to return to Thailand just yet but I feel it would be a great waste if I just forgot all that I have learned over the years so I am in two minds whether to hit the books hard and get fluent, or keep them in the closet gathering dust. It has always been a dream of mine to speak another language really well so I think I will probably go ahead anyway, just curious of the perks ?

Cheers !

I can read/write/speak/listen in pretty much all everyday situtations that i encounter in my life.

Although my "accent" isn't perfectly native, sort of like how Jackie Chan's english accent isn't like the Queen's english, my thai accent sometimes sounds a bit robotic and "methodical".

However, I prefer this rather than the alternative which is trying to mimic my wife's accent because then i would sound like a gay thai man..hahaha (guys who've been here a while and heard some foreigners speak thai will understand and giggle accordingly)

Aside from the obvious benefits, I quite like being fluent in thai so i can be in an environment and "pretend" that I'm a fresh tourist and do not know any thai so that I can covertly pick up on what thais are saying around me

[Bredbury Blue]

The other problem I have is why do people get so upset when two Westerners speak Thai to each other - I thought we were in Thailand?

Now you're taking the piss! Why would two farlangs want to speak to each other in thai, apart from being pretentious gits, unless say one only spoke german and the other only spoke english?

However, I am surprised to hear people say you can truly absorb and learn the culture and people without speaking the language at a fairly high level. If someone you know said, I understand the Spanish people, I understand their culture, and I lived there for 20 years - all while not speaking Spanish, you would give no weight to their "cultural knowledge" and you would probably think they were a little slow for not picking up the language. The problem, of course, is that it is really tough to "pick up" Thai. You really need to apply yourself and continue to do so. My Thai abilities were actually better a couple of years ago than today. The lanague remains a challenge.

Personnally i do not agree that learning the language fluently is a prerequisite to understanding the culture. Let me put it this way as an example, Brits move to Aussie and while we are very similar to our english speaking aussie-born hosts, there are definite cultural differnces due to being local to the climate, food, sport, politics, tc, etc. Thai's as a nation are far more different than Aussies to Brits so while speaking Thai might help a Brit understand a bit more about a Thai he will never fully understand the make-up of a thai (ask anyone who is married to another national).

You were taking the piss / having a joke weren't you

[steveromagnino]

If you don't learn to speak Thai, how will you be high-handed and condescending to others who don't speak it fluently.

I've been here 5 years and don't speak fluently, I'd like to but between the family, staff and businesses I just don't have time to learn - I'd rather spend my time keeping up with technology which enables me to earn a good salary and look after my family nicely, learning Thai wouldn't make me any more money or any happier here, I'll probably be fluent one day but would never rub it in people's faces who are not.

To suggest that people who aren't fluent in Thai don't know the REAL Thailand, Shouldn't be issued Visas, get ripped off, aren't respected, don't understand any Thai people and won't experience true friendship or relationships is verging on the ludicrous and is certainly insulting to those who have great friendships, family, relationships and an enjoyable, amiable life here.

Its sometimes the misunderstandings, getting lost, having Thais trying out their English, that can often make situations fun.

OK Ben.

I assume most of these comments following are directly aimed at me, since you have attempted to quote several. I did not intend any of this to be condescending.

Let me first point out, my fluency in Thai leaves a lot to be desired. I cannot and do not speak Thai like a Thai that was born here. Maybe by the time I am 50 I will, but i doubt it. I grew up in a western country, and to some degree think in those terms.

However, what Thai I do know has enabled me to BETTER understand how this country and how Thai people think and reasons for that. Better = I can understand more as a result of Thai language skill than if I did not have it. It doesn't mean I completely understand, it doesn't mean someone without Thai language skills could not come to some level of understanding; however it is a matter of probabilities. To use an analogy, anyone can make winning bids at bridge with some luck; skill makes the right bids consistently where luck does not. Amazing how good bridge players don't talk so much about 'being unlucky' and getting 'bad cards' (note I am also a terrible bridge player). I am not sure whether many foreigners can ever truly understand Thailand and Thai people, I certainly could live in USA the rest of my life and probably never truly understand all aspects of that country as I didn't grow up there, and that is without the language barrier (spanish not withstanding :-). And without Thai language, how can you possibly go to rural Thailand or poorer areas and have any meaningful communication???

'less likely to act like an idiot' - in my personal experience the majority of major blow ups occur with people who know nothing of the culture or why people behave the way they do. Maybe you have learned all this in the workplace already - good for you. My own belief is that learning the language also teaches you the importance of certain concepts here in Thailand like seniority; greng jai and a host of others; as a manager these are cultural tools to be used to your advantage. Respect for body parts stems directly from the language (pom=head etc) and this helps to avoid the sad mistake of pointing at people with feet. Many staff are far less reticent to speak up in their native language because they aren't scared of being misinterpreted. It is certainly very easy to not be an idiot whatever your Thai fluency; however in my personal experience dealing with MANY clients, the biggest HR/management issues with non-Thai management almost always occur when a new manager comes from abroad or has been here for a while and systematically avoided learning Thai. Who knows. Maybe fluency is not the issue. Maybe for some people learning the language is seen as something unnecessary because they don't desire to learn about the culture/Thailand at all - fair enough. BTW note the word 'some' in that sentence.

'you realise what a bubble MANY non-Thai non-Thai speaking.....' - as far as I am concerned the endless threads with ill thought out recommendations of how Thailand can upgrade itself, the endless c complaints, the almost word for word exact same complaints that expats whinge about in Singapore, Korea, Japan, Malaysia, China - they suggest to me that not all the posters have their feet on the ground. If you wish to dispute this, then be my guest - either you disagree with the magnitude or you believe that ALL language skill has nil correlation with actually knowing what is really going on here. I am not saying all. I am saying many. Which is more than a few and less than a majority. Clear?

'rather than stopping at 'you idiot, this is why your country sucks' that is typical of the non-Thai non-Thai speaking foreigner....' have a read on Thaivisa or other webboards more focused on the adult 'ahem' components of Thailand's charm for western men, and you will discover an endless string of these sorts of posts. 'That is typical' is perhaps a little strong; how about we agree to change it to the marginally less strong 'that some non-Thai non-Thai speaking foeigners are so willing to say'. Happy?

I note a very interesting point raised; what if Thai people can speak English, can you then discuss all these details with them - surely you don't have to know Thai to converse with this group? That has not been my own experience; my mother, my girlfriend and my bosses all claim that their thought process is somewhat different in english than in Thai; I cannot recall who but I know some sociologist says language shapes the way we think; at work in some meetings we use english and in others we use Thai; as somewhat of an outsider I note which conversations work best in which language, and with multiple clients, the breakdown starts to get quite clear; we are all thinking in the language we are speaking, and that changes the nature and type of communication in the meeting. Incidentally, all the Thai speakers above learned their english abroad and along with that, they also picked up the cultural norms of nonverbal communication of english/New Zealanders/Americans/Australians at the same time. I would very much doubt any would disagree with the belief that you will truly understand how British/Kiwis/Americans think (maybe not 100% but close) if you speak their language, and it will nigh on impossible to acheive that only speaking Thai as other posters have pointed out from their experiences with some Thais abroad! Incidentally, many subjects some Thais would not dare talk to a foreigner about, they will happily hold that same conversation in Thai. Even in the press, there are some significant differences between what a publication like Matichon talks about and some of the news reported in the english newspapers.

How many farang have I met who speak fluent Thai who were not born here? From memory, something like 3 or less. I'd say in my time, I've met more than a handful that speak Thai better than I do; some clearer, some with a deeper understanding of the language, and some both. Perhaps my mail is far too strong; let's think of it more as a continuim; with greater fluency on a scale of 1-100 comes greater opportunities to learn. After all, even a rank beginner in bridge can reach a bid and make a grand slam of 7NT; it just seems that skilled players adept in the communication of bridge get to the right bids without confusion a lot more of the time.

Regarding VISAs, AFAIK citizenship and PR require basic understanding of Thai as do PR and citizenship to enter New Zealand where english (or i presume Maori!) is a requirement. I didn't make any direct mention of the VISA issue, but feel that preference should be given to people that make contributions to Thailand, be they business, investment, cultural, religious, academic or otherwise. Generally most countries around the world run points schemes of this nature to assess which candidates are best suited to living in their country long term; language is not the be all and end all, but certainly most countries around the world do appreciate anyone taking the time to learn the language.

Ben, I appreciate that you are making a conscious choice to focus on what makes you happy. Good for you. I trust that this post outlines and explains in a way that you feel is not condescending to the 'non-Thai speakers' that are out there (which it doesn't sound like you even are, if you speak 30-40% of the language). We've never really defined fluency anyway.

[dumspero]

Stever- The problem is the rude, arrogant, think or claim their Thai is good when it's not crowd are all avoiding this discussion. Maybe you're not one of those-- your posts suggest you aren't.

But where are you <deleted> I always meet who play the ace Thai translator even though you think a pantee is something your gf wears?

[steveromagnino]

Stever- The problem is the rude, arrogant, think or claim their Thai is good when it's not crowd are all avoiding this discussion. Maybe you're not one of those-- your posts suggest you aren't.

But where are you <deleted> I always meet who play the ace Thai translator even though you think a pantee is something your gf wears?

:-)

I am honest about my lack of Thai ability; there are some neeraram, Meadish Swedeball, Rikker that have Thai skills (at least in writing and explanation) far in excess of my own; I've not met them in person so cannot say much more than this. Mine is good enough to get by in most situations, but I am quite aware of my own shortcomings.

pantee, something the girlfriend wears. Classic.

Although you know she is wearing her pantee to cover her map of tasmania right??!

[Tornado]

A lot of people claim to be fleunt in Thai, but Ive only met two who are semi close. My Thai is great, but to say Im fluent would be ridiculous. I would say my "Bangkok Thai" is about 70%???? and my southern Thai dialect is about 80%??? - sometimes I get confused and speak in both dialects at the same time and people cant understand what the hel_l Im saying. My Laos is terrible and my northen Chiang Mai Thai is non existent.

I think speaking Thai has its pros and cons as with my short temper I seem to say a few of the bad things quite often, which can get you into trouble.

The only benefits are doing business with Thais and especially older Thais, who have no english skills, they feel more at ease.

I also like to listen to what is being said around me, if the people dont realise I can understand what they are saying, you can get a better feel about the person and you can know in a minute if they are trying to scam you, lie to you or if they do have some respect for you.

I always line up at the airport in the Thai national line as the queue is a lot quicker. When the immigration guy says "you go over to that line", I make him laugh with some stupid comment in Thai - I usually get to stay in the line.

I think the major bonus in speaking Thai is that you can sit around and have a laugh with Thais and you get to fit in a lot easier in your rural areas. If I had no Thai skills out in the boonies, I would be talking to myself or giving my wife a head ache.

[wasabi]

I think any level of learning Thai offers benefits, but fluency would open you up to exponentially more possibilities than all levels below it. There are situations where my limited Thai has helped, ordering from a vendor, explaining directions to a cab driver who didn't know English, but in many others the fact I am not fluent has made it seem like I'm trying to show off, or am using my Thai like some kind of cute parlor trick. For me personally I hope to reach fluency. It's like the plane tries to take off but quickly crashes whenever I try to speak Thai with someone. If I manage to speak correctly they excitedly rattle off something in Thai that I can't follow whereupon I have to ask them to slow down or speak in English if possible. It's a real downer. Sensing many Thai's excitement when they detect I know marginal Thai I think it would be even more fun if I was fluent. Also just because one is fluent in Thai doesn't mean you'd have to speak in Thai every time. There are times when Thai's or fellow foreigners wish to see us as dumb tourists and it can be advantageous to surreptitiously meet their expectation. Imagine the eavesdropping entertain value when amongst Thai speakers who assume you can't follow! Having the ability to turn it on and speak fluently when appropriate could only be a benefit.

Edited April 10, 2007 by wasabi

[Furbie]

The other problem I have is why do people get so upset when two Westerners speak Thai to each other - I thought we were in Thailand?

Now you're taking the piss! Why would two farlangs want to speak to each other in thai, apart from being pretentious gits, unless say one only spoke german and the other only spoke english?

You were taking the piss / having a joke weren't you

If two Russians were speaking to each other in English in England, no one would have a problem – in fact, if they spoke Russian some people might be angry about that and say learn English. If two Spaniards were speaking to each other in English, no one would have a problem.

So why does two Germans speaking Thai to each other in Thailand generate such negative comments – according to you they would be "pretentious gits". What about a family sitting in a restaurant, two foreigners each married to a Thai, with kids, all conversation in Thai – even when speaking to each other, then would they be "pretentious gits" for speaking Thai. Remove the children, still "pretentious gits" for speaking Thai.

Please enlighten me as to the proper circumstances under which two westerners may engage in a conversation in Thai, IN THAILAND, and let me know if the same rule applies for a conversation in England or Australia, and if not why?

[Tornado]

The other problem I have is why do people get so upset when two Westerners speak Thai to each other - I thought we were in Thailand?

Now you're taking the piss! Why would two farlangs want to speak to each other in thai, apart from being pretentious gits, unless say one only spoke german and the other only spoke english?

You were taking the piss / having a joke weren't you

If two Russians were speaking to each other in English in England, no one would have a problem – in fact, if they spoke Russian some people might be angry about that and say learn English. If two Spaniards were speaking to each other in English, no one would have a problem.

So why does two Germans speaking Thai to each other in Thailand generate such negative comments – according to you they would be "pretentious gits". What about a family sitting in a restaurant, two foreigners each married to a Thai, with kids, all conversation in Thai – even when speaking to each other, then would they be "pretentious gits" for speaking Thai. Remove the children, still "pretentious gits" for speaking Thai.

Please enlighten me as to the proper circumstances under which two westerners may engage in a conversation in Thai, IN THAILAND, and let me know if the same rule applies for a conversation in England or Australia, and if not why?

Good point.

I have spoken in Thai to quite a few farangs over the years. If English isnt there first language and they can speak some Thai, it is funny as well as a must do. How else would you communicate.

[ColPyat]

Good point.

I have spoken in Thai to quite a few farangs over the years. If English isnt there first language and they can speak some Thai, it is funny as well as a must do. How else would you communicate.

Yeps.

Once in France i conversed with a French in Thai as both his English and my French were far worse than our Thai.

[solo siam]

If you don't learn to speak Thai, how will you be high-handed and condescending to others who don't speak it fluently.

I've been here 5 years and don't speak fluently, I'd like to but between the family, staff and businesses I just don't have time to learn - I'd rather spend my time keeping up with technology which enables me to earn a good salary and look after my family nicely, learning Thai wouldn't make me any more money or any happier here, I'll probably be fluent one day but would never rub it in people's faces who are not.

To suggest that people who aren't fluent in Thai don't know the REAL Thailand, Shouldn't be issued Visas, get ripped off, aren't respected, don't understand any Thai people and won't experience true friendship or relationships is verging on the ludicrous and is certainly insulting to those who have great friendships, family, relationships and an enjoyable, amiable life here.

Its sometimes the misunderstandings, getting lost, having Thais trying out their English, that can often make situations fun.

Ok lets make a couple of assumptions for illustrative purposes only:

1) Itsara (boys name) lives in Thailand and speaks Thai - he is happy and able to converse with friends, family, and makes money in his business

2) Itsara moves to the United States where he starts a new business

3) He can not speak English but intends to learn "one day" but he is busy with his business and knows many Thai people who he can have a conversation whenever he needs and they will help him deal with the banks, immigration, lawers, rental agencies, suppliers, etc

How hard do you think it is going to be for him?

Howe much of America will he really know and understand?

How many Americans will say "hey this is America learn to speak English"

How many Americans will say "###### foreigners come here and don't even learn to speak English"

Yes you can survive and yes you can have a pleasant life here without learning Thai but you will always be ignorant of the real Thailand because you can't understand the language. You will always be an outsider. You will always be reliant on a Thai friend/partner to deal with the 100 things every day that speaking good Thai will make much easier.

You say you have lived here for five years - good luck and good fortune but if a Thai did that in any other country we would say that is "typical of Thai laziness to not bother learning" We would see forums on Thai Visa about how "they never bother to assimilate" "they live in communitites with their own kind" "they can't speak so when they want something they just point and grunt like monkeys"

Oh and in case you are wondering these are conversations I have with my Thai friends in Thai who ask me why Farung who live here don't speak Thai

Oh and to address your retort about "suggesting having to learn Thai to get a visa is ludercrous" - check the details with your Embassy on the requirements for foreigners to get a visa to work and live.

CB

Again you are suggesting that people are ignorant of any sort of REAL Thailand if they don't have excellent Thai speaking skills regardless of their experience in this country. There's a thousand things that others would suggest are needed to help you understand and experience the REAL Thailand like for example becoming a Monk - Could you imagine someone saying you can't know the REAL Thailand unless you've been a monk?

In regards to your USA example, around 20% of the population speak Spanish mostly on a day-day basis, Are you suggesting that Latino people who have lived in America for 70 years+ don't know the real USA?

BTW in Thailand You will ALWAYS be an outsider regardless, unless you become a Thai Citizen but this is fairly rare.

Steveromagnino - I wasn't particularly replying to yourself, just your points captured what I felt the general sentiment was, I can understand that learning an advanced level of Thai may help an individual feel that they get more out of their experience here, but everyone is unique, others have other ways of understanding and experiencing Thailand.

In my above example, I do actually know someone that became a monk for a while - he felt that this gave him a greater understanding of Thailand and Thai people, however that wouldn't work for me as I'm not spiritual and I would have the same argument for him if he argued that I didn't know or couldn't know the REAL Thailand until I'd been a monk.

Edited April 10, 2007 by Ben@H3-Digital

[dumspero]

Ben- Yes, I think those 20% Spanish speakers (if it's that many) don't know the real US, because the real US includes so many things one can't know without English.

Just like Thailand. One can't possibly know as much about Thailand without knowing a lot of Thai (and by that I mean a lot more than my own limited Thai).

An easy example is how to have as good a feel for rural Thais if one can't speak to them, for God's sake? And how can you even know those in a Thai spouse's family if they only speak Thai and you can't even talk to them?

Look, no problem from me if you don't want to learn Thai. But you're kidding yourself if you think you can know a culture without knowing the language the way you can if you do know the language. That just seems pretty basic. Again, no problem with that. But no need to duck reality.

[MiG16]

I didn't say I didn't speak Thai well, I said I wasn't fluent, its not a competition, and there's no prize. I could say that you haven't experienced Thailand until you have a Thai wife, a Baby, a business, have Thai staff to manage, have to deal with Thai customs or the Tax office etc...

To suggest that there is some secret Thailand with mysterious secrets that are only unlocked when you become fluent in Thai is pretty ridiculous, the high handedness and condescension apparent from a lot of people who are Fluent and boasting of it actually suggests they have a far more limited knowledge of Thailand or Thai'ness than they seem to think.

Ben, I think you mistake Steve's points of advantages for speaking fluent thai. What I see in that list is simply that...a list of advantages...which is what the OP wanted to find out. I dont think anyone is suggesting that those who speak thai less fluently is any less a capable person. Speaking thai will open up doors, and better understanding, easier banter, things like that.

a general question mark that I often get as the vibe from some comments on the board is...why is it that people are so quick or find it so easy to interpret things in negative ways. its one thing to see the bad side of things and be aware and not be too naive. but when a simple comment offering benefits of certain thing (speaking thai) is taken to imply those who dont have it are inferior....that I would say is either too paranoid or too negative.

now I hope the OP can be encaouraged /motivated to learn more thai, and those of you who have benefited from speaking the language and able to communicate with the locals will share more of your experience with the OP

sawaddee kha to all, and happy Songkran

[solo siam]

But many rural Thais speak Issan or Laos, Must you also learn Laos to really understand Thailand, Whenever I've been to the boonies its only the youngsters that can speak proper Thai - Are you suggesting that speaking to kids will give you as much understanding of village life as talking to the village elders?

Most older Thais in the rural areas can't read or write, do they not understand the REAL Thailand either?

What about someone born Thai who's mute/deaf? are they alos missing out on the REAL Thailand?

What about Canada, must you be Fluent in English AND French before you understand the REAL Canada?

At the rate its going, the US will be mainly spanish speaking in 50 years or so, will then all of a sudden the English speakers not know the real USA?

[Naam]

Ben- Yes, I think those 20% Spanish speakers (if it's that many) don't know the real US, because the real US includes so many things one can't know without English.

what about most americans who don't know how to speak or write english and are limited to communicate in american?

[dumspero]

Ben- Your ideas about most Thais not speaking Thai in the boonies seem clueless to me. And the Isaan people I know (like the football team I drank with on Sunday) certainly seem to be able to speak Thai to me. Most older Thais in the rural areas can't read or write? Or can't read and write well?

Mute/deaf? Ever heard that exceptions prove the rule?

You're kidding yourself if you think that a non-language speaker can get as deep into a culture as someone who can speak the language. Why can't you just admit that? Why the need to believe or claim that a non-speaker can know as much about a culture as someone who can speak the language?

Again, it's ok not to learn the language. I've lived where I do for nearly 12 years and don't speak the language. So I do expat both ways (ooh-hope that's not too suggestive). But I just don't get the need to go into denial about it. Good on those who learn and the rest of us are just missing some things. Simple as that.

[ColPyat]

But many rural Thais speak Issan or Laos, Must you also learn Laos to really understand Thailand, Whenever I've been to the boonies its only the youngsters that can speak proper Thai - Are you suggesting that speaking to kids will give you as much understanding of village life as talking to the village elders?

Most older Thais in the rural areas can't read or write, do they not understand the REAL Thailand either?

What about someone born Thai who's mute/deaf? are they alos missing out on the REAL Thailand?

What about Canada, must you be Fluent in English AND French before you understand the REAL Canada?

At the rate its going, the US will be mainly spanish speaking in 50 years or so, will then all of a sudden the English speakers not know the real USA?

You are getting ridiculous now.

You are the only one here who goes on about the REAL ( ) Thailand, refusing to accept that strong language skills are necessary in order to communicate with the millions of Thais who do not speak English, and therefore getting a wider understanding of Thailand, its people, and the culture.

You are plain wrong when you think that most folks in the rural areas don't speak central Thai. Nowadays only the very old cannot speak central Thai at all, most young people do speak central Thai very well, and middle aged ones do as well, though with strong accents.