UK coronavirus death toll could be 15% higher than previously shown: new data

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, Forethat said:

I don't use the term Tin Foil Hat other than when people come up with conspiracy theories. In this case there are a couple of posters who've come up with....conspiracy theories.

Do you want to refer to them as fact-based analysts? 

 

https://www.dictionary.com/e/pop-culture/tinfoil-hat/

 

And just to point out (once again) I don't support or defend either side, I'm simply pointing out the facts. Nothing else. And in this case the fact is that the Government couldn't report the deaths in question simply because they didn't know about them. Simple as that. There's goes the conspiracy in the bin...

 

 

 

 

Its not a conspiracy theory to point out the government is lying.

The Scottish government knows how many have died in Scottish carehomes. 

As does the Welsh government.

You are saying Westminster does not know. Now either this is due to incompetence or they are lying.

Which one do you think is most likely?

[stevenl]

4 minutes ago, Forethat said:

I am not defending it, I'm simply giving you a technical and factual explanation as to WHY the reporting is incorrect.

No. Your posts here show differently, and that includes all kind of belitteling.

 

But there is no point in this, just passed by after seeing some of your posts in quotes by others.

[Forethat]

 

 

18 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Its not a conspiracy theory to point out the government is lying.

It is if you can't provide an ounce of proof to support your accusations other than theories that the government is lying and that there is an underlying reason for it. That's what makes it a....conspiracy theory. I've pointed out the facts, and your response was to call me shameful? Really?

 

6 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

How come other countries around the world (including Scotland and Wales) are able to include the number of deaths at care homes and elsewhere?

What is unique about England that it is not able to provide those figures?

We can all see why they are not included. And for some people on here to defend and obfuscate the reasons why is truly shameful.

 

18 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

The Scottish government knows how many have died in Scottish carehomes. 

Apparently they do.

 

18 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

You are saying Westminster does not know. Now either this is due to incompetence or they are lying.

Which one do you think is most likely?

They don't know for reasons I have accounted for in this thread. Countless times. Incorrect procedures that weren't designed to support emergency response/efforts required to tackle a virus pandemic?

 

Edited April 21, 2020 by Forethat

[7by7]

@Forethat, I'm not going to waste vast amounts of bandwidth by quoting your lengthy posts in full: and since you object to just the pertinent points being quoted (which isn't against the forum rules, see rule 16) I won't be doing that either.

 

In fact, every single point of yours which I have been able to extract from the waffle has already been answered by myself and/or others at least once, often more. 

 

So I won't be responding yet again to them. 

 

Except to ask you why you are so fixated with alien insemination? 

[Forethat]

22 minutes ago, stevenl said:

So please show posts where you did not defend the accuracy of the reports.

I have never claimed the reports to be accurate. Contrary, I have several times pointed out their inaccuracy. That's my whole point, they ARE inaccurate. And I have explained WHY they are inaccurate.

[Forethat]

13 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

In fact, every single point of yours which I have been able to extract from the waffle has already been answered by myself and/or others at least once, often more. 

Been answered by YOU? I thought this thing was covered by the official documentation I have provided links to?

Here they are, once again:

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/877302/guidance-for-doctors-completing-medical-certificates-of-cause-of-death-covid-19.pdf

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsinvolvingcovid19englandandwales/deathsoccurringinmarch2020/pdf

 

[7by7]

8 minutes ago, Forethat said:

I have never claimed the reports to be accurate. Contrary, I have several times pointed out their inaccuracy. That's my whole point, they ARE inaccurate. And I have explained WHY they are inaccurate.

And you have repeatedly defended the government disseminating innaccurate information. 

 

As I said previously, we wouldn't be having this conversation if right from the start the government had said the figures were incomplete because they only included deaths in hospitals. But they didn't. They only finally admitted it when they were found out. 

[Rookiescot]

21 minutes ago, Forethat said:

 

 

It is if you can't provide an ounce of proof to support your accusations other than theories that the government is lying and that there is an underlying reason for it. That's what makes it a....conspiracy theory. I've pointed out the facts, and your response was to call me shameful? Really?

 

 

Apparently they do.

 

They don't know for reasons I have accounted for in this thread. Countless times. Incorrect procedures that weren't designed to support emergency response/efforts required to tackle a virus pandemic?

 

So you think the UK government of Johnson is incompetent then.

At last !!!!

Something we can agree on ????.

[7by7]

15 minutes ago, Forethat said:

Been answered by YOU? I thought this thing was covered by the official documentation I have provided links to?

 

Yes, points you have raised in defence of the government's deception have been answered by myself and others. 

 

I am not claiming authorship of any document, official or otherwise. I fail to see how anyone could reach the contrary conclusion from anything I have written. 

[Sujo]

22 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

And you have repeatedly defended the government disseminating innaccurate information. 

 

As I said previously, we wouldn't be having this conversation if right from the start the government had said the figures were incomplete because they only included deaths in hospitals. But they didn't. They only finally admitted it when they were found out. 

Exactly right and proved by you and others. But it appears the facts maybe to diificult for some.

[7by7]

I said earlier that one reason for the government's deception was a feeble attempt to hide their own ineptitude by producing figures which appeared to show we were dealing with the emergency better than our neighbours. 

 

The tactic seems to have worked on at least one individual. 

 

Edited April 21, 2020 by 7by7

[Forethat]

4 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

And you have repeatedly defended the government disseminating innaccurate information. 

 

As I said previously, we wouldn't be having this conversation if right from the start the government had said the figures were incomplete because they only included deaths in hospitals. But they didn't. They only finally admitted it when they were found out. 

Well that's your conspiracy theory. I have provided facts that clearly show that they COULDN'T have known about the deaths in care homes. 

 

Lastly, during the Daily Briefings it is CLEARLY stated that the numbers involves the people taken to HOSPITAL and how many have died in HOSPITAL. That's what they say. Here's a transcript from the briefing 14 April.

Quote

"I can report that through the government ongoing monitoring and testing program as of today 302599 people in the UK have now been tested for coronavirus with 93873 people testing positive 19706 people in the UK have been admitted to hospital with the virus down from 20184 people yesterday. Sadly of those in hospital, 12107 people have died, an increase of 778 fatalities since yesterday. Our thoughts are with the family and friends of all those who have lost their lives"

 

And as usual, I am the one providing the links, whilst you provide...nothing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000hqdd/bbc-news-special-coronavirus-daily-update-14042020

 

[Forethat]

35 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

So you think the UK government of Johnson is incompetent then.

I have no idea, and I don't think the qualities of BJ is the topic up for debate here.

 

To bring this back on topic, may I mention my previously provided information (supported by links to official documentation) regarding the reporting of deaths:

The deaths that occur in care homes and hospices are not included in the daily figures presented during the Daily Briefings because;

A. The deaths are not known at the time of the Daily Briefing (the briefing on April 20 made it clear that there is a 17 day lag for care home data). The ONS report subject to debate lags 16 days.

B. All care home deaths are not registered as deaths directly caused by COVID-19, or not registered as deaths where COVID-19 was a condition leading to the direct cause of deaths

C. The patients that died in care homes were not tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 and are therefore not included in the data that is presented in the Daily Briefing where only patients with a confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection are included (testing only takes place at NHS hospitals)

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsinvolvingcovid19englandandwales/deathsoccurringinmarch2020

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/877302/guidance-for-doctors-completing-medical-certificates-of-cause-of-death-covid-19.pdf

Edited April 21, 2020 by Forethat

[7by7]

37 minutes ago, Forethat said:

Well that's your conspiracy theory. I have provided facts that clearly show that they COULDN'T have known about the deaths in care homes. 

What I and others are saying is that right from the start the government should have made it clear that the figures were only for hospital deaths and the actual number would be significantly higher when all the deaths outside hospitals had been collected and included. 

 

But they didn't. 

 

That's not a conspiracy theory, it's a fact. 

 

37 minutes ago, Forethat said:

Lastly, during the Daily Briefings it is CLEARLY stated that the numbers involves the people taken to HOSPITAL and how many have died in HOSPITAL. That's what they say. Here's a transcript from the briefing 14 April.

Yes, as I and others said well before you, they are now so doing; but they only started to make this clear after being challenged on the accuracy of their figures.

 

37 minutes ago, Forethat said:

And as usual, I am the one providing the links, whilst you provide...nothing.

That you continually provide links to information which is not in dispute is a pointless exercise. 

Edited April 21, 2020 by 7by7
Addendum

[Forethat]

39 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

What I and others are saying is that right from the start the government should have made it clear that the figures were only for hospital deaths and the actual number would be significantly higher when all the deaths outside hospitals had been collected and included. 

 

But they didn't. 

 

Yes, as I and others said well before you, they are now so doing; but they only started to make this clear after being challenged on the accuracy of their figures. 

They said exactly the same thing on April 6, that the patients accounted for were patients that were tested and brought to hospital. April 6 That's WELL before anyone challenged the accuracy of the reports (the accuracy wasn't questioned until ONS published the report on April 16).

 

Just to give you another example of the transparency of the apparent inaccuracy of the reports, this was pointed out in clear text during the Daily Briefing on April 8. Again, that is WELL before April 16 when ONS published the report you claim is the proof that they are deceiving the public. Here's a transcript of what was said:

Quote

"So finally I have data on the sad statistic about of people who have died from COVID and this is an international comparison across different countries showing how that number accumulates in different countries, and the UK is the dark blue line somewhere in the middle there. This data has long reporting lags and even after the number of people in critical care stabilizes or even maybe begins to fall, this number will rise because sometimes deaths are reported many many days or even a week or so after sadly somebody has died, so expect this number to keep rising even after the curve has flattened."

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000hlvk/bbc-news-special-coronavirus-daily-update-08042020

 

So, there is simply NOTHING that supports the idea that this is a deliberate deception. Contrary, there's an abundance of evidence to support the exact opposite.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Forethat

[metisdead]

This topic has descended into an incessant round and round bickering session of I'm right you're wrong, no you're wrong I'm right and round and round it goes.  

 

This topic is now closed.