UK shadows Italy as worst hit in Europe: virus death toll passes 28,000

[puchooay]

7 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

I might also add that every time Nicola Sturgeon deviated from what Westminster was doing she was publicly harangued by British nationalist.

But, according to her, she will have an overwhelming majority in the next independence vote. Why worry about a few pesky British Nationalists?

[kingdong]

8 hours ago, stevenl said:

So you're criticising the government for inaction, and at the same time you're trying to put the blame on leftist hand wringers.

Leftist hand wringers?but of a harsh way to describe the opposition but very apt,congratulations you,'ve finally posted something I agree with.

Edited May 4, 2020 by kingdong

[kingdong]

9 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Engage this hindsight and tell us what he got right?

I merely pointed out hindsight is a wonderfull thing,I didn,t expect a Spanish inquisition

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

And how do you think the British public would have reacted if the UK PM ordered a national lockdown because Italy had been hit by a pandemic? Remember, the UK has not been materially affected by any of the multiple pandemics for 100 years. And you expected the government to crash the economy and put millions into poverty just in case this pandemic did make it to our shores? 

 

You and the rest of the Tory haters would have been on here calling them all sorts of names for over reacting. 

Johnson’s failures were not simply inaction, they were a deliberate policy of not intervening to allow the disease to spread, his failed herd immunity experiment.

 

On not just that, but also a failure to start procurement of PPE and essential medical equipment.

 

A failure to test and track.

 

A failure to attend 5 COBRA meetings.

 

One failure after another.

[Chomper Higgot]

31 minutes ago, kingdong said:

I merely pointed out hindsight is a wonderfull thing,I didn,t expect a Spanish inquisition

Yes, I understand, trying to come up with an example of something Johnson got right is a bit of a torture.

[CG1 Blue]

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Johnson’s failures were not simply inaction, they were a deliberate policy of not intervening to allow the disease to spread, his failed herd immunity experiment.

 

On not just that, but also a failure to start procurement of PPE and essential medical equipment.

 

A failure to test and track.

 

A failure to attend 5 COBRA meetings.

 

One failure after another.

There was no herd immunity experiment by Boris, I've already explained why your 'inaction' point is invalid and why it wasn't necessary to attend those COBRA meetings at the time. 

I agree there were some failings on PPE and testing capabilities; for the UK and several other countries. 

 

How is your country's PM doing by the way? I think this is a valid question being as you're so keen to run the UK government down. 

[Rookiescot]

7 hours ago, sungod said:

Johnson did prepare and try to control, just not the way you wanted him to!!! But seems the death toll in Europe is far higher than the rest of the world, perhaps following their example cost more lives.....

 

Now, I've answered your question, now answer the ones you have continually refused to. Prevaricate and obfuscate, interesting choice of words, described yourself down to a tee.

 

 

No you didnt answer my question at all.

Johnson did not try to prepare or contain the virus. We had herd immunity remember?

No need to stockpile PPE or tests kits.

No we had something better. That plucky British spirit so we could take it on the chin.

The death toll in the UK is now second only to that of the US.

Two incompetent right wing leaders have managed to screw both countries.

Still bulldog spirit will see us through eh? 

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

No you didnt answer my question at all.

Johnson did not try to prepare or contain the virus. We had herd immunity remember?

No need to stockpile PPE or tests kits.

No we had something better. That plucky British spirit so we could take it on the chin.

The death toll in the UK is now second only to that of the US.

Two incompetent right wing leaders have managed to screw both countries.

Still bulldog spirit will see us through eh? 

You say the UK death toll is second only to the US. I know you desperately want this to be the case to support your anti-Tory stance, but please stick with the facts. 

Italy has the second most deaths after the US.

 

Also, if you take population size into account Belgium, Italy and Spain are comfortably ahead of the UK in terms of deaths per 1m population. 

 

Furthermore, Italy and other countries appear to have issues with their Covid 19 numbers, so I suggest you postpone your celebrations until the data is finalised, which may take a long time. 

 

German Covid-19 cases 'may be 10 times higher than official figures'

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/04/german-covid-19-cases-may-be-10-times-higher-than-official-figures

 

Italy death toll 'far higher than reported'

Statistics bureau ISTAT said its analysis showed an extra 11,600 deaths were unaccounted for

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/may/04/coronavirus-live-news-mike-pompeo-pushes-virus-lab-theory-as-brazil-passes-100000-cases

 

[metisdead]

A post using an off topic deflection analogy about Iraq/WMD's has been removed as well as the replies. 

[stevenl]

4 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

 

<snip>

German Covid-19 cases 'may be 10 times higher than official figures'

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/04/german-covid-19-cases-may-be-10-times-higher-than-official-figures

 

<snip>

This is due to asymptomatic carriers. If true for Germany, most likely it would apply to all countries.

 

One could also take the view that in countries with less testing done, like UK, US, Netherlands, percentages would rise more.

Edited May 5, 2020 by stevenl

[sungod]

7 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

No you didnt answer my question at all.

Johnson did not try to prepare or contain the virus. We had herd immunity remember?

No need to stockpile PPE or tests kits.

No we had something better. That plucky British spirit so we could take it on the chin.

The death toll in the UK is now second only to that of the US.

Two incompetent right wing leaders have managed to screw both countries.

Still bulldog spirit will see us through eh? 

Sturgeon has done no better......

 

Three time now you have failed to answer any of my questions, yet you continue to spout off. Fact is you are wrong/contradict yourself on many of your points. Really no point in arguing with you anymore, you have no credibility.

 

Ever considered running for office? You'd make a good politician ????

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, sungod said:

Sturgeon has done no better......

 

Three time now you have failed to answer any of my questions, yet you continue to spout off. Fact is you are wrong/contradict yourself on many of your points. Really no point in arguing with you anymore, you have no credibility.

 

Ever considered running for office? You'd make a good politician ????

You have not asked any questions. All you have done is continue with a pedantic argument over timings which I clarified.

 

[Logosone]

7 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

 

German Covid-19 cases 'may be 10 times higher than official figures'

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/04/german-covid-19-cases-may-be-10-times-higher-than-official-figures

 

Well, I've said that over a month ago, ever since Sir Patrick Vallance kindly told us that in the UK there were ten times to twenty times the number of identified cases.

 

Btw, I don't think you can accuse Boris Johnson of 'not intervening', he's put in place one of the most extreme social distancing regimes in the world. He's massively intervened in British social life, and gone completely overboard. The UK is not following a herd immunity policy now, it's following a social distancing policy for quite a while now. With very limited success.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Logosone

[stevenl]

6 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

Well, I've said that over a month ago, ever since Sir Patrick Vallance kindly told us that in the UK there were ten times to twenty times the number of identified cases.

 

Btw, I don't think you can accuse Boris Johnson of 'not intervening', he's put in place one of the most extreme social distancing regimes in the world. He's massively intervened in British social life, and gone completely overboard. The UK is not following a herd immunity policy now, it's following a social distancing policy for quite a while now. With very limited success.

Late intervening could be a justified criticism, possibly too late.

[Tiger1980]

Is it me or am I imagining, that most of the people on this thread criticising Boris Johnson,are the same people who over the last few years have been opposed to the democratic will of the British people to leave the EU. Their numbers also seem to include a high % of non Brits.

[Logosone]

16 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Late intervening could be a justified criticism, possibly too late.

Okay, but everyone acted too late. The governments of the world saw what was going on in Wuhan for a month or two until they did anything.

 

Our governments did not take it seriously. Until it was too late. Imagine if a lockdown had been put in place in January. None of this would have happened. 

 

So yes, too late. Of course. 

 

But is lockdown even necessary after the virus has spread? Evidence from Sweden and Japan seems to suggest "not really".

Edited May 5, 2020 by Logosone

[sungod]

14 minutes ago, Tiger1980 said:

Is it me or am I imagining, that most of the people on this thread criticising Boris Johnson,are the same people who over the last few years have been opposed to the democratic will of the British people to leave the EU. Their numbers also seem to include a high % of non Brits.

Seems to a high number of Scottish Nationalists too. Nothing wrong with Nationalism of course, its good to be proud  but hypocritical to lay the blame at Westminster when their own Government have not taken a different path.  I'd start by getting my own house in order first, Sturgeon had choices.

[stevenl]

47 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Okay, but everyone acted too late. The governments of the world saw what was going on in Wuhan for a month or two until they did anything.

 

Our governments did not take it seriously. Until it was too late. Imagine if a lockdown had been put in place in January. None of this would have happened. 

 

So yes, too late. Of course. 

 

But is lockdown even necessary after the virus has spread? Evidence from Sweden and Japan seems to suggest "not really".

UK did not take any action after it hit mainland Europe, unless the herd immunity theory is to be believed, in which case they took action and reverted later.

Either way they failed.

[Logosone]

Well, you certainly can't call the outcome in Britain a success.

 

The population is terrified, has to endure one of the worst lockdowns in the world, the economy in worst shape of any European country with a 12% contraction predicted, and none of that is even resulting in any benefit in dealing with the virus.

[RuamRudy]

4 hours ago, sungod said:

Seems to a high number of Scottish Nationalists too. Nothing wrong with Nationalism of course, its good to be proud  but hypocritical to lay the blame at Westminster when their own Government have not taken a different path.  I'd start by getting my own house in order first, Sturgeon had choices.

It is a very difficult subject to broach without coming across as gloating, but please accept that it gives me absolutely no satisfaction to compare the death rate in Scotland with that of England. Of course we have suffered and our government has made missteps, but overall, the figures speak for themselves. Scotland suffered far fewer deaths per head of population than England. 

 

The below chart was tweeted by Ed Conway of Sky News. 

 

As for Sturgeon, your views don't chime with the vast majority of Scots who are actually seeing first hand what her government is accomplishing. This from Yougov last week:

 

Three quarters approve of the Scottish Government’s handling of COVID 19

"Three quarters (74%) of Scots think the Holyrood-based institution is doing well, with just one in five (19%) saying they’re doing a bad job. "

 

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by RuamRudy

[RuamRudy]

4 hours ago, Tiger1980 said:

Is it me or am I imagining, that most of the people on this thread criticising Boris Johnson,are the same people who over the last few years have been opposed to the democratic will of the British people to leave the EU. Their numbers also seem to include a high % of non Brits.

You could also turn that on it's head and point out that the majority of people cheering on the administration that has led our country to achieving the second highest COVID-19 death rate in the developed world are the same people who are responsible for dragging us out of the most successful economic trading partnership in the world.

[hotandsticky]

6 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

You could also turn that on it's head and point out that the majority of people cheering on the administration that has led our country to achieving the second highest COVID-19 death rate in the developed world are the same people who are responsible for dragging us out of the most successful economic trading partnership in the world.

 

 

Go Boris..... doing a great job on Brexit and Covid-19 

[stevenl]

44 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

Go Boris..... doing a great job on Brexit and Covid-19 

Brexit I don't agree with, but ok, choice made.

 

But what is he doing great on Covid-19?

And what is he doing on Brexit, except saying that there will be no delay?

Edited May 5, 2020 by stevenl

[sungod]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

It is a very difficult subject to broach without coming across as gloating, but please accept that it gives me absolutely no satisfaction to compare the death rate in Scotland with that of England. Of course we have suffered and our government has made missteps, but overall, the figures speak for themselves. Scotland suffered far fewer deaths per head of population than England. 

 

The below chart was tweeted by Ed Conway of Sky News. 

 

As for Sturgeon, your views don't chime with the vast majority of Scots who are actually seeing first hand what her government is accomplishing. This from Yougov last week:

 

Three quarters approve of the Scottish Government’s handling of COVID 19

"Three quarters (74%) of Scots think the Holyrood-based institution is doing well, with just one in five (19%) saying they’re doing a bad job. "

 

 

Thanks, very informative. Of course, you could argue that England with its more densely populated cites are suffering more. Densely populated areas seem to be taking the bigger hits worldwide.

 

Has me wondering though, why some of your compatriots, particularly the nationalists are so incensed by Boris's handling of the situation south of the border when you point out Scotland is doing better in comparison.

 

One can only put it down to petulance/political bickering.

 

 

[CG1 Blue]

9 hours ago, stevenl said:

This is due to asymptomatic carriers. If true for Germany, most likely it would apply to all countries.

 

One could also take the view that in countries with less testing done, like UK, US, Netherlands, percentages would rise more.

I agree with you - it will most likely apply to all countries. And that's my point. People weaponizing the Covid 19 numbers need to be aware there are going to be many inaccuracies. 

[CG1 Blue]

7 hours ago, Logosone said:

Okay, but everyone acted too late. The governments of the world saw what was going on in Wuhan for a month or two until they did anything.

 

Our governments did not take it seriously. Until it was too late. Imagine if a lockdown had been put in place in January. None of this would have happened. 

 

So yes, too late. Of course. 

 

But is lockdown even necessary after the virus has spread? Evidence from Sweden and Japan seems to suggest "not really".

Yes, lots of painful lessons will have been learnt from this pandemic. I suppose one positive is that we'll all be more prepared for the next one. 

[CG1 Blue]

7 hours ago, sungod said:

Seems to a high number of Scottish Nationalists too. Nothing wrong with Nationalism of course, its good to be proud  but hypocritical to lay the blame at Westminster when their own Government have not taken a different path.  I'd start by getting my own house in order first, Sturgeon had choices.

The Scot Nats on here have a lot to be aggrieved about. Lost the independence referendum, lost the Brexit referendum, saw the Tories win the election with a massive majority, and then were told Indy ref 2 won't happen in the near future. I'm not surprised they're hurting. 

 

But attacking the UK government at every opportunity during a national crisis is still inappropriate in my opinion. Especially when as you say Sturgeon has followed the same path. We should be pulling together, as the SNP are doing along with the other 3 governments of the UK. 

Edited May 5, 2020 by CG1 Blue

[CG1 Blue]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

It is a very difficult subject to broach without coming across as gloating, but please accept that it gives me absolutely no satisfaction to compare the death rate in Scotland with that of England. Of course we have suffered and our government has made missteps, but overall, the figures speak for themselves. Scotland suffered far fewer deaths per head of population than England. 

 

The below chart was tweeted by Ed Conway of Sky News. 

 

As for Sturgeon, your views don't chime with the vast majority of Scots who are actually seeing first hand what her government is accomplishing. This from Yougov last week:

 

Three quarters approve of the Scottish Government’s handling of COVID 19

"Three quarters (74%) of Scots think the Holyrood-based institution is doing well, with just one in five (19%) saying they’re doing a bad job. "

 

 

I think as others have said that population density is a major factor with a virus. Scotland has by far the lowest population density in the UK. 

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/281322/population-density-in-the-united-kingdom-uk-by-country/

 

How else would you explain how Scotland's death toll is much lower than England's, while both nations are following the same strategy? I suppose it could be all those porridge oats ????

 

 

[RuamRudy]

36 minutes ago, sungod said:

Thanks, very informative. Of course, you could argue that England with its more densely populated cites are suffering more. Densely populated areas seem to be taking the bigger hits worldwide.

 

Has me wondering though, why some of your compatriots, particularly the nationalists are so incensed by Boris's handling of the situation south of the border when you point out Scotland is doing better in comparison.

 

One can only put it down to petulance/political bickering.

 

 

Of course there are myriad factors which means that there is no single covid experience across the UK, or elsewhere for that matter. I have not seen figures broken down by population density, but our biggest cities have similar density profiles to those in England so it would stand to reason that if all things were equal, deaths would likewise be similar. 

 

As for the negativity towards Johnson, he is the UK pm and continues to have significant power over Scotland. It was his government which spurned offers from the eu to participate in a collective ppe resourcing scheme. Quarantine powers are reserved, as is immigration, NHS procurement and many other factors which directly affect the abilities of the devolved governments to operate. 

 

This is not about throwing stones at a benign bogeyman. Sturgeon has done a good job with what she has at her disposal, but Scotland's response has been significantly hindered by Westminster failings. 

[sungod]

23 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

The Scot Nats on here have a lot to be aggrieved about. Lost the independence referendum, lost the Brexit referendum, saw the Tories win the election with a massive majority, and then were told Indy ref 2 won't happen in the near future. I'm not surprised they're hurting. 

 

But attacking the UK government at every opportunity during a national crisis is still inappropriate in my opinion. Especially when as you say Sturgeon has followed the same path. We should be pulling together, as the SNP are doing along with the other 3 governments of the UK. 

It's quite childish I think, all about hating the English. For example, if I see any of the 'home nations' playing in a sports event I'll cheer the Jocks on against the Aussies, I'll cheer the Irish against the French. But you would never see many of the Scots cheer the English ????