Pompeo says 'significant' evidence new coronavirus emerged from Chinese lab

[candide]

4 hours ago, rkidlad said:

Yea, that a huge cop-out. That's like you asking me a hypothetical question I don't like and me saying, "That's  a hypothetical question. You know I don't answer hypothetical questions". I'm clearly hiding something. 

 

China can do whatever if likes within its borders (as proven time and and time again), but they can't refuse an independent investigation and expect people to believe them. That's not how life works. China should be welcoming an investigation. It will clear their name if they're telling the truth. By denying one, they're continuing to ruin their image and their economy. 

 

Rules are rules doesn't apply here. 

You may be right from a moral point of view but it's purely rhetorical. China will never accept an invasive international investigation on any issue. 

The US know it, Australia knows it, the EU knows it.

Edited May 4, 2020 by candide

[candide]

2 hours ago, DavisH said:

China can rightly tell the to eff off. Would the US government allow a foreign investigation of them in the same situation?

Likely not. That's why there's no chance to reform the WHO and grant it significant watchdog power. Several countries such as the US, Russia, etc... will not sign a treaty allowing invasive investigations. Not only China.

[ChouDoufu]

5 hours ago, rkidlad said:

So why not say that? The message was grossly misleading. When facing an epidemic you have to be 100% clear and concise. The emphasis should always have been on "be careful" as opposed to, "stop spreading rumours this might be able to be passed on human-to-human because there's no clear evidence for that".

 

The fact that people are even debating the tweet is further proof of how unclear it was. But that's all moot anyway, as they would have known by then that it was spreading human-to-human. They were warned way before by their own doctors. 

 

 

upon further consideration, i've come to the conclusion that the who twoot from january 14 (no clear evidence) AND the press conference the same day (may be limited transmission) are both irrelevant.  arguing about the meaning of the words here is pointless.

 

this is a united nations agency, and does not conduct business by twart, and the press briefings are for public consumption.  the american cdc does not have a staff member monitoring social media for important announcements.  (if they do, why?)  they have direct channels with their regional directors, with other governments, and with national disease centers.

 

as part of the who, we have personnel within the organization, so expect we would have access to all their information.  was the who not providing wuhan data to other members?  when did who confirm h2h transmission?  earliest statement from china confirming h2h i can find was jan 19.  the lancet has the first case in the usa jan 23, and the first h2h on jan 30.  if our cdc have the same data that who does, are we prohibited from taking action without who approval?

[candide]

53 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

upon further consideration, i've come to the conclusion that the who twoot from january 14 (no clear evidence) AND the press conference the same day (may be limited transmission) are both irrelevant.  arguing about the meaning of the words here is pointless.

 

this is a united nations agency, and does not conduct business by twart, and the press briefings are for public consumption.  the american cdc does not have a staff member monitoring social media for important announcements.  (if they do, why?)  they have direct channels with their regional directors, with other governments, and with national disease centers.

 

as part of the who, we have personnel within the organization, so expect we would have access to all their information.  was the who not providing wuhan data to other members?  when did who confirm h2h transmission?  earliest statement from china confirming h2h i can find was jan 19.  the lancet has the first case in the usa jan 23, and the first h2h on jan 30.  if our cdc have the same data that who does, are we prohibited from taking action without who approval?

As concerns the USA: one of the 34 members of the WHO board of executives has been nominated by the US in 2018. She is one of the top executives at the US Department of Health and Human Services. She is also one of the 11 WHO Board officers.

The US has therefore access to all first-hand insider's information from the WHO. Tweets don't matter. There is no way the US could be unaware of any information received by the Board, nor of any debate occurring at the WHO. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by candide

[Crazy Alex]

Two points

 

1) As with virtually all civilians, I don't know if the virus originated from a lab in China.

2) Leftists will, by default, not want to believe it if proven true.

[ChouDoufu]

51 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

Two points

 

1) As with virtually all civilians, I don't know if the virus originated from a lab in China.

2) Leftists will, by default, not want to believe it if proven true.

 

1.  it could be that nobody knows, civilian or military or government, and there may be no way of ever knowing for certain.

 

2.  the more pressing problem is there are some, by default, who believe it without good evidence, and who will continue to believe it even if proven false.

[stevenl]

7 hours ago, rkidlad said:

University of Southampton said had they been more honest and proactive from beginning, 95% of cases could have been avoided. 
 

You keep believing and giving the benefit of the doubt to an authoritarian regime who heavily censors information and locks up critics. And I’ll continue to judge them accordingly based off their actions. 

 

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/05/01/asia/china-censorship-chen-jieren-intl-hnk/index.html?__twitter_impression=true

 

 

Many cases might have been avoided with an earlier warning and acting on that warning. There was inaction now after clear warnings, why would an earlier warning have resulted in earlier action?

 

And please stop accusing people of supporting the CCP, that is not what this is about. Blaming others for inaction is not the same as supporting CCP.

[the guest]

Pompeo just another Trump puppet. 

[Logosone]

8 hours ago, candide said:

Likely not. That's why there's no chance to reform the WHO and grant it significant watchdog power. Several countries such as the US, Russia, etc... will not sign a treaty allowing invasive investigations. Not only China.

There is probably no chance to rebuild the WHO into a meaningful organization.

 

Despite some good work from Mike Ryan, I wonder if the WHO made any big difference here. Is there anything the WHO has done in this pandemic that was of overwhelming use which nation states could not have done?

 

Do we even need the WHO?

[Jimbo2014]

13 hours ago, Logosone said:

The Andersen study did not actually discount the mutation in humans scenario, they gave two possible explanations, one the animal intermediary and one the human intermediary. Turns out coronaviruses can spread directly from bat to human, it was just the particular bat coronavirus the Chinese identified as the most closely genetically related to the SARS Cov2, that can't. This does not mean the virus could not have spread from a coronavirus derived from a bat, there are many others, that can infect humans. From the tenor of the Andersen paper I would say the authors are not sure themselves, hence the provision for two possible explanations.

 

The Chinese certainly behaved in a peculiar manner in some respects, I agree with you, though within weeks they did share the genome. Indeed the bat coronavirus used in the Andersen paper was from China's Batwoman. One has to consider however if China's statement that human to human transmission was not happening was due to ignorance, rather than design. It's possible as well.

 

I would definitely agree that now the Chinese propaganda is in overdrive to falsify a lot of the data on the virus, silly accusations like the US introduced it do it no favours really.

 

China holds all the cards in terms of origin of the pandemic, and indeed fighting it, as they seem to have a knowledge advantage in coronavirus research. It can not be discounted this virus escaped from a Chinese lab, but we'd have to see real evidence. 

Agreed on all points.  Coronaviruses can spread directly to humans but to do so with such strong afinity for ACE2 without going through less efficient binding states.  To my knowlege no wild-type SL-CoV of bat origin has been shown to use ACE2 as a binding site.  SARS did but very inefficiently and thus its R0 was much lower than Cov2.  This represents a more natural evolution.  Given that NIH funding in 2017 was renewed to Wuhan Laboratory and that the funding included GOF experinments, there may be too many people with skin in the game to ever hope for an answer.  However the possibility remains very much open with the incredible coincidence of the epicenter of this outbreak occuring a stones throw from the only BSL4 laboratory in China.

[Logosone]

27 minutes ago, Jimbo2014 said:

Agreed on all points.  Coronaviruses can spread directly to humans but to do so with such strong afinity for ACE2 without going through less efficient binding states.  To my knowlege no wild-type SL-CoV of bat origin has been shown to use ACE2 as a binding site.  SARS did but very inefficiently and thus its R0 was much lower than Cov2.  This represents a more natural evolution.  Given that NIH funding in 2017 was renewed to Wuhan Laboratory and that the funding included GOF experinments, there may be too many people with skin in the game to ever hope for an answer.  However the possibility remains very much open with the incredible coincidence of the epicenter of this outbreak occuring a stones throw from the only BSL4 laboratory in China.

 

I think you're right, and this point is unlikely to go away because China equally can not disprove that the Wuhan lab was not the source of an accidental outbreak. Batwoman already said she tested the genomes of patients and those of the bat viruses she harvested and there was no similarity. However, people will never accept that as truth, they will always say "well, she would say that, wouldn't she?" "China would say that now, wouldn't it". So when histories of this pandemic are written in the future, most likely speculation about the outbreak starting due to an accidental escape from that lab will be included.

 

Yes, MERS Cov was able to directly infect humans from bats, no intermediary and it did bind to ACE2.

 

https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-422X-10-359/figures/2

 

It's not SL-Cov, you're right. Of course God knows, with 5000 coronaviruses estimated in Bats today, who knows what's out there, the potential for future pandemics is terrifying.

 

Even more terrifying is that if someone like Batwoman goes out there to harvest and identify the coronaviruses she could in fact be increasing the chances of a pandemic rather than decreasing it. That I believe, was her main goal, to get to know the coronaviruses before they get to us in a pandemic. Of course she's made out to be the villain for her troubles, and it is conceivable she was. We don't know.

 

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Logosone

[rkidlad]

10 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

another problem we have is the amount of propaganda and disinformation directed against china.  you see the hit pieces with actual "fake news", photoshopped images, spliced and redubbed videos, wild claims.  they circulate on youtube and other social media platforms, get propagated by the conspiracy and political opposition websites, sometimes get picked up by the mainstream press.  occasionally even make it into presidential tweets, i believe.

 

and this of course results in even more restrictions on social media in china.  the censors were dealing with an intensive propaganda campaign because of the hong kong situation, party meetings were coming up, and so they would of course move to shut down more "fake news."

 

it doesn't help with all the repostings of easily debunked propaganda.  21 million cell phone users died, 87 crematoria were getting 3500 urns delivered daily, interns were selling used bats at the market, it was a bioweapon tested on wuhan, they deliberately infected the world.  the more of that <deleted> we get, the harder it gets to take real accusations seriously.

 

i'd really like to know the truth.  evidence-free accusations aren't the way to give me confidence my overlords have anything other than their own grip on power in mind.

Yea, don’t talk to me about fake news in the West. The CCP are kings of fake news. They control everything that comes out of the Chinese press. Apples and oranges. 

[rkidlad]

10 hours ago, candide said:

You may be right from a moral point of view but it's purely rhetorical. China will never accept an invasive international investigation on any issue. 

The US know it, Australia knows it, the EU knows it.

So China deserves all the condemnation and future loss of earnings that will come their way. Adapt or die. 

[rkidlad]

8 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

upon further consideration, i've come to the conclusion that the who twoot from january 14 (no clear evidence) AND the press conference the same day (may be limited transmission) are both irrelevant.  arguing about the meaning of the words here is pointless.

 

this is a united nations agency, and does not conduct business by twart, and the press briefings are for public consumption.  the american cdc does not have a staff member monitoring social media for important announcements.  (if they do, why?)  they have direct channels with their regional directors, with other governments, and with national disease centers.

 

as part of the who, we have personnel within the organization, so expect we would have access to all their information.  was the who not providing wuhan data to other members?  when did who confirm h2h transmission?  earliest statement from china confirming h2h i can find was jan 19.  the lancet has the first case in the usa jan 23, and the first h2h on jan 30.  if our cdc have the same data that who does, are we prohibited from taking action without who approval?

It really doesn’t matter at this point. The world is on its knees economically because China didn’t react quickly enough and hid information. 
 

China will now suffer the consequences of lying to the world. If they’re innocent, they can clear their name. By not allowing an independent investigation, they’re signing their own economic death warrant. 
 

Companies will pull out of China, and China will only have itself to blame. Good luck keeping 1.4 billion happy when the nationalism drive runs dry and the economy sinks even further. 

[Eric Loh]

5 minutes ago, rkidlad said:

Yea, don’t talk to me about fake news in the West. The CCP are kings of fake news. They control everything that comes out of the Chinese press. Apples and oranges. 

China is a totalitarian country and we expect high level of control but West especially US are democratic countries and yet the US federal government is concealing, preventing and intimidating the news. 

[rkidlad]

3 hours ago, stevenl said:

Many cases might have been avoided with an earlier warning and acting on that warning. There was inaction now after clear warnings, why would an earlier warning have resulted in earlier action?

 

And please stop accusing people of supporting the CCP, that is not what this is about. Blaming others for inaction is not the same as supporting CCP.

I believe the US restricted air travel from China on the 2nd of February. This was way after Wuhan was locked down and travel from Wuhan to other parts of China was blocked. The CCP said after the US travel restrictions on Feb 2nd, and I quote, “The US is acting inappropriately to the outbreak”. They went onto say that the restrictions were precisely against what the WHO rejects. My favourite bit was the CCP accusing the US of “violation human rights”. 
 

It’s so easy to look back at the timelines and see so many mistakes that were made. Mistakes that surely people knew were wrong but didn’t wanna look bad. The CCP made the mother load of mistakes. 

 

Words can have big consequences, but so much more can silence. 

[rkidlad]

11 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

China is a totalitarian country and we expect high level of control but West especially US are democratic countries and yet the US federal government is concealing, preventing and intimidating the news. 

So call it out. You can do that. You can report on these things. 
 

Try doing that in China. 

[J Town]

4 minutes ago, rkidlad said:

It’s so easy to look back at the timelines and see so many mistakes that were made.

Unfortunately, they're still making YUGE mistakes in the US and will probably continue to do so. Opening up nonessential businesses such as WWE, tattoo parlors and the such, while the infection rate is still increasing, is the most boneheaded move possible. What was that saying about learning from history or being doomed to repeat it?

[Phil McCaverty]

On 5/4/2020 at 2:37 AM, CaptRon2 said:

Do you have any evidence whatsoever to support your statement? 

All of the 5 "I"s (US, UK, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand intelligence services) have had sight of the intelligence that Pompeo referred to. The other 4 have concluded that there is zero evidence that the virus escaped from a lab and it was almost certain that it passed from animal to man directly (Wuhan wet market).

 

A clear attempt by the White House to further it's propaganda war against China by the use of fake news. Notice how Pompeo didn't actually quote any of this "significant evidence".

 

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Phil McCaverty

[rabas]

11 minutes ago, Phil McCaverty said:

All of the 5 "I"s (US, UK, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand intelligence services) have had sight of the intelligence that Pompeo referred to. The other 4 have concluded that there is zero evidence that the virus escaped from a lab and it was almost certain that it passed from animal to man directly (Wuhan wet market).

 

A clear attempt by the White House to further it's propaganda war against China by the use of fake news. Notice how Pompeo didn't actually quote any of this "significant evidence".

Kindly provide that evaluation. I am not aware anyone has seen it. The opinions expressed by some of the other countries seem to be in line.

 

As for the market, It has been all but proven from the beginning that the Wuhan market was not the initial source. Many of the earliest patients had no contact with the market or others who did.

 

There is also no confirmed intermediary animal source, though several have been discussed. 

[stevenl]

48 minutes ago, rkidlad said:

I believe the US restricted air travel from China on the 2nd of February. This was way after Wuhan was locked down and travel from Wuhan to other parts of China was blocked. The CCP said after the US travel restrictions on Feb 2nd, and I quote, “The US is acting inappropriately to the outbreak”. They went onto say that the restrictions were precisely against what the WHO rejects. My favourite bit was the CCP accusing the US of “violation human rights”. 
 

It’s so easy to look back at the timelines and see so many mistakes that were made. Mistakes that surely people knew were wrong but didn’t wanna look bad. The CCP made the mother load of mistakes. 

 

Words can have big consequences, but so much more can silence. 

You're avoiding the point made. There was hardly any action now, earlier warning would not have helped.

[rkidlad]

5 minutes ago, stevenl said:

You're avoiding the point made. There was hardly any action now, earlier warning would not have helped.

Not avoiding the point. The US were criticized heavily at home and abroad for their travel restrictions. Now they’re saying they should have done it sooner. 
 

My point isn’t with what the US is doing now. They’re making plenty of their own mistakes. My point is the sheer lies and  misleading information coming from the CCP building up to this virus. This is an article about the origins of the virus and how it built up. 

Edited May 5, 2020 by rkidlad

[ChouDoufu]

1 hour ago, rkidlad said:

Yea, don’t talk to me about fake news in the West. The CCP are kings of fake news. They control everything that comes out of the Chinese press. Apples and oranges. 

 

there's the hard part.  how can us little people know what's true?  the commies obviously don't ALWAYS lie and the beacons of democracy don't ALWAYS speak truth.  we do have a history of misleading the world that should not be necessary to go into now.

 

proving one or the other is fibbing doesn't equal the other side being truthful.

 

i have no faith in the pronouncements of my government, not with "has a complicated relationship with the truth" trump heading the regime, especially not with creatures like pompeo on the payroll.  that of course doesn't mean i accept whatever the chinesers say, but if our regime wants to claim the other guy is lying, they better be able to back it up.  "trust me" won't cut it.

 

fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.

 

 

[Phil McCaverty]

4 minutes ago, rabas said:

Kindly provide that evaluation. I am not aware anyone has seen it. The opinions expressed by some of the other countries seem to be in line.

 

As for the market, It has been all but proven from the beginning that the Wuhan market was not the initial source. Many of the earliest patients had no contact with the market or others who did.

 

There is also no confirmed intermediary animal source, though several have been discussed. 

Wrong on every level. The report on the 5 "I"s was on a news item I watched this morning (BBC i think).

 

Only the White House and US alt right media have been pumping the Wuhan lab nonsense. The rest of the world has gone with the Wuhan wet market from the beginning.

[rkidlad]

4 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

 

there's the hard part.  how can us little people know what's true?  the commies obviously don't ALWAYS lie and the beacons of democracy don't ALWAYS speak truth.  we do have a history of misleading the world that should not be necessary to go into now.

 

proving one or the other is fibbing doesn't equal the other side being truthful.

 

i have no faith in the pronouncements of my government, not with "has a complicated relationship with the truth" trump heading the regime, especially not with creatures like pompeo on the payroll.  that of course doesn't mean i accept whatever the chinesers say, but if our regime wants to claim the other guy is lying, they better be able to back it up.  "trust me" won't cut it.

 

fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.

 

 

Freedom of expression. You can say and have an opinion on these things without fear of arrest or imprisonment. Try doing that in China and tell me how you get on. 
 

Give me an establishment that lies but can be questioned any day over one that will imprison you for the same actions. 
 

Apples and oranges. 

[Eric Loh]

1 hour ago, rkidlad said:

So call it out. You can do that. You can report on these things. 
 

Try doing that in China. 

Those who called out are out of their jobs. Those who been asked to testify have been prohibited by the White House. Those who speak facts based on science have been sidelined. Criminals pardoned. Comparing China political system and US is apple and pear. US is a democratic country with a President that is acting like President Xi. 

[rkidlad]

Just now, Eric Loh said:

Those who called out are out of their jobs. Those who been asked to testify have been prohibited by the White House. Those who speak facts based on science have been sidelined. Criminals pardoned. Comparing China political system and US is apple and pear. US is a democratic country with a President that is acting like President Xi. 

You’re going to have to have two thoughts in your head at the same time. You can despise the CCP while at the same time despising Trump. This isn’t a “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” kind of scenario. The CCP isn’t and will never be your friend. 
 

You’re free to point out all the faults of the US and their president. Keep pointing them out and if they hold any water, you might see Trump lose in the elections. As we learn, changes can be made. Unfortunately this isn’t the case with the CCP. They’re just doubling down and no matter how much we expose their lies and deceit, they have a leader for life. And if the CCP refuse to learn because they don’t have to, we can live in fear of another pandemic. 

[rabas]

27 minutes ago, Phil McCaverty said:

Wrong on every level. The report on the 5 "I"s was on a news item I watched this morning (BBC i think).

 

Only the White House and US alt right media have been pumping the Wuhan lab nonsense. The rest of the world has gone with the Wuhan wet market from the beginning.

Discussion of the 5 eyes report by ForeignPolicy.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/05/04/coronavirus-lab-leak-trump-five-eyes/

 

While there is ample evidence that Chinese government officials covered up aspects of the scope and severity of COVID-19 early on, Ottawa, Canberra, and London have all said investigations need to continue regarding the source of the virus.

 

Fox News has reported in recent weeks of an emerging confidence in the United States that the coronavirus accidentally emerged from a biosecurity lab in Wuhan, the initial epicenter of the outbreak. In the aftermath, the news outlet reported, Beijing worked to cover up the mishap by blaming a nearby wet market.

 

As I had suggested.

Edited May 5, 2020 by rabas

[ChouDoufu]

1 minute ago, rkidlad said:

Freedom of expression. You can say and have an opinion on these things without fear of arrest or imprisonment. Try doing that in China and tell me how you get on. 
 

Give me an establishment that lies but can be questioned any day over one that will imprison you for the same actions. 
 

Apples and oranges. 

ok, we don't like their regime.  we can agree they have an authoritarian surveillance state without the freedoms we enjoy.

 

we can argue that implies they shouldn't be trusted, but that doesn't prove they're lying.  in order to prove they're lying, we have to, you know, prove it.

 

there will be consequences, but we need to be careful, and act when we can show some evidence.  the chinese are not going to submit easily, trump has no patience, and his advisers in my opintion have too much influence over him.

 

launching cruise missiles before the investigation has even begun won't work this time.  we've finally got an adversary that can shoot back.  sanctions and tariffs won't work, possibly ever, definitely not within the time constraints of the election cycle.  trump will have no option left but massive provocation to show his manliness to the voters. 

 

expect more freedom of navigation runs through the south china sea, bomber overflights, recon flights accidentally entering chinese airspace.  china will protest but won't take the bait, so trump will have to escalate, especially if the poll numbers are looking poorly in late august.  i can see him recognizing taiwan independence.  china will take the bait.

 

 

[frenetic]

Just now, rkidlad said:

You’re going to have to have two thoughts in your head at the same time. You can despise the CCP while at the same time despising Trump. This isn’t a “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” kind of scenario. The CCP isn’t and will never be your friend. 
 

You’re free to point out all the faults of the US and their president. Keep pointing them out and if they hold any water, you might see Trump lose in the elections. As we learn, changes can be made. Unfortunately this isn’t the case with the CCP. They’re just doubling down and no matter how much we expose their lies and deceit, they have a leader for life. And if the CCP refuse to learn because they don’t have to, we can live in fear of another pandemic. 

Considering that Eric Loh said that "US is a democratic country with a President that is acting like President Xi." it hardly seems he's ignoring the role China played in this pandemic.