Pompeo says 'significant' evidence new coronavirus emerged from Chinese lab

[ChouDoufu]

7 minutes ago, rkidlad said:

That’s China’s problem. If the virus came from a wet market in Wuhan as the CCP claimed at the beginning, they can worry about the dynamics of it all. They owe the world the truth. 
 

The onus is now on China. 

if it's their problem and the onus is on them, does that mean china can do their own investigation with who assistance?  who (not WHO) would believe the result?  trump and pompeo (and some ccp guys as well) are doing their best to poison the well.

 

i'll assume you're not implying the wuhan market is a diabolical ccp ploy to obscure the leak from their lab.  many of the first cases were linked to the market, so it's a reasonable hypothesis that the outbreak may have started there.  other than reporters taking liberties with their headlines, i'm not aware of anyone saying the wet market has conclusively been shown to be the source.

[rkidlad]

1 minute ago, ChouDoufu said:

if it's their problem and the onus is on them, does that mean china can do their own investigation with who assistance?  who (not WHO) would believe the result?  trump and pompeo (and some ccp guys as well) are doing their best to poison the well.

 

i'll assume you're not implying the wuhan market is a diabolical ccp ploy to obscure the leak from their lab.  many of the first cases were linked to the market, so it's a reasonable hypothesis that the outbreak may have started there.  other than reporters taking liberties with their headlines, i'm not aware of anyone saying the wet market has conclusively been shown to be the source.

No, it means they can set it all up and wait for the outside world to agree with it. An investigation done solely by them would never find them complicit in anything. Just more of same old BS. 

[Mavideol]

China should start to worry about their behavior on the international world backlash/hostility

 

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/05/04/asia-pacific/china-report-us-tiananmen-global-backlash-coronavirus/

 

The report, presented early last month by the Ministry of State Security to top Beijing leaders, including President Xi Jinping, concluded that global anti-China sentiment is at its highest since the 1989 Tiananmen Square crackdown, the sources said.

Internal Chinese report warns Beijing faces Tiananmen-like global backlash over virus

[frenetic]

Just now, Mavideol said:

China should start to worry about their behavior on the international world backlash/hostility

 

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/05/04/asia-pacific/china-report-us-tiananmen-global-backlash-coronavirus/

 

The report, presented early last month by the Ministry of State Security to top Beijing leaders, including President Xi Jinping, concluded that global anti-China sentiment is at its highest since the 1989 Tiananmen Square crackdown, the sources said.

Internal Chinese report warns Beijing faces Tiananmen-like global backlash over virus

And China definitely deserves it. And it's good that they are being made uncomfortable and that mistrust of them has increased. Xi is a pretty clueless fellow in lots of ways. 

The problem is that lots of people are using the misdeeds of China to excuse their own lapses.

[Mavideol]

3 minutes ago, rkidlad said:

No, it means they can set it all up and wait for the outside world to agree with it. An investigation done solely by them would never find them complicit in anything. Just more of same old BS. 

since they claim they have nothing to hide and did report everything why not allow an independent investigation, if nothing to hide and they did everything by the book then the independent investigation will come to that conclusion and all is well, no more China bashing or blaming, what are they afraid off

[rkidlad]

1 minute ago, Mavideol said:

since they claim they have nothing to hide and did report everything why not allow an independent investigation, if nothing to hide and they did everything by the book then the independent investigation will come to that conclusion and all is well, no more China bashing or blaming, what are they afraid off

Exactly. 

[frenetic]

8 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

since they claim they have nothing to hide and did report everything why not allow an independent investigation, if nothing to hide and they did everything by the book then the independent investigation will come to that conclusion and all is well, no more China bashing or blaming, what are they afraid off

Next thing you know, they'll be claiming executive privilege.

[ChouDoufu]

8 minutes ago, rkidlad said:

No, it means they can set it all up and wait for the outside world to agree with it. An investigation done solely by them would never find them complicit in anything. Just more of same old BS. 

so how do we resolve this?  we won't trust an investigation run by china, china won't accept an international inquiry forced upon them, especially not if certain western powers get to stack the court. 

 

under a trump/pompeo/5eyes regime, the investigation will NOT be "where did the virus originate", but rather "how did it escape the lab."  i don't expect anything remotely "truthy" to come of a politicized international investigation judging by recent examples.

 

the who should be lead investigator, but we've effectively cut off that avenue.  so now what?

[Mavideol]

4 minutes ago, frenetic said:

Next thing you know, they'll be claiming executive privilege.

mostly like they will use their VETO vote at the UN for any potential independent investigation... can't figure out why the UN gave China and Russia veto rights

Edited May 5, 2020 by Mavideol

[stevenl]

26 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

mostly like they will use their VETO vote at the UN for any potential independent investigation... can't figure out why the UN gave China and Russia veto rights

Why don't you include USA, UK and France in those countries with veto rights?

Edited May 5, 2020 by stevenl

[ChouDoufu]

25 minutes ago, rkidlad said:

No, it means they can set it all up and wait for the outside world to agree with it. An investigation done solely by them would never find them complicit in anything. Just more of same old BS. 

come to think of it, it's starting to look like trump/pompeo are doing all they can to PREVENT a real, independent inquiry.  poisoning the well with possibly fabricated claims, leaking selected fusion-esque reports, demonizing the who, demonizing the united nations, making threats that will guarantee chinese opposition.  it's almost as though they want to ensure there won't be a thorough investigation.

[rkidlad]

9 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

so how do we resolve this?  we won't trust an investigation run by china, china won't accept an international inquiry forced upon them, especially not if certain western powers get to stack the court. 

 

under a trump/pompeo/5eyes regime, the investigation will NOT be "where did the virus originate", but rather "how did it escape the lab."  i don't expect anything remotely "truthy" to come of a politicized international investigation judging by recent examples.

 

the who should be lead investigator, but we've effectively cut off that avenue.  so now what?

Again, the onus is on China to work all this out. Just because a country is secretive and doesn't want an open investigation doesn't mean that's the end of that. China has to see how the rest of the world works. If it doesn't like that, they can live with the shame of not being believed. Adapt or die.

 

There are people who are paid to do these kind of things. Like how police detectives are paid to investigate crime. Stop asking me as if I'm the moral authority of this investigation and if I don't know how to do it, then no one does. 

 

 

[rkidlad]

Just now, ChouDoufu said:

come to think of it, it's starting to look like trump/pompeo are doing all they can to PREVENT a real, independent inquiry.  poisoning the well with possibly fabricated claims, leaking selected fusion-esque reports, demonizing the who, demonizing the united nations, making threats that will guarantee chinese opposition.  it's almost as though they want to ensure there won't be a thorough investigation.

Pure conjecture.  

[ChouDoufu]

1 minute ago, rkidlad said:

Pure conjecture.  

you mean my speculation, or trump/pompeo evidence-free accusations?

[Pattaya46]

30 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

Since they claim they have nothing to hide and did report everything, why not allow an independent investigation ? //

Since Pompeo says he has "significant evidences", why doesn't he make them public ?

[frenetic]

24 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

mostly like they will use their VETO vote at the UN for any potential independent investigation... can't figure out why the UN gave China and Russia veto rights

Are those the only 2 nations that abused those rights? It might be better to ask the question why is there a security council at all?

[Eric Loh]

9 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

come to think of it, it's starting to look like trump/pompeo are doing all they can to PREVENT a real, independent inquiry.  poisoning the well with possibly fabricated claims, leaking selected fusion-esque reports, demonizing the who, demonizing the united nations, making threats that will guarantee chinese opposition.  it's almost as though they want to ensure there won't be a thorough investigation.

Simply put, the Chinese believed there is a political agenda behind the investigation and if they allowed US investigation, it will be highly skewed to serve that agenda. The better option is for WHO is lead the investigation but US unlikely to accept their conclusion. Other countries may be asked to lead the investigation but Trump don’t trust any of his allies. So basically it’s one big Trump’s manufactured problem. 

[Phil McCaverty]

4 minutes ago, frenetic said:

Are those the only 2 nations that abused those rights? It might be better to ask the question why is there a security council at all?

"Since 1992, Russia has been the most frequent user of the veto, followed by the United States and China. France and the United Kingdom have not used the veto since 1989."-wiki

[candide]

22 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

come to think of it, it's starting to look like trump/pompeo are doing all they can to PREVENT a real, independent inquiry.  poisoning the well with possibly fabricated claims, leaking selected fusion-esque reports, demonizing the who, demonizing the united nations, making threats that will guarantee chinese opposition.  it's almost as though they want to ensure there won't be a thorough investigation.

I agree with you that it looks like they are doing all they can to make sure China feels offended and rejects any investigation.

However, they may not do it on purpose. It may well be that they just don't care as their communication target is the US voters. They may just communicate in this way because they think it sounds good and is striking enough to divert attention.

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by candide

[ChouDoufu]

14 minutes ago, rkidlad said:

Pretty much most of your posts. 

well, this IS an intertubes forum!  that's what we're here for.

 

i'm speculating as to why pompeo is making claims without offering a shred of evidence.  were he to throw us a bone we could be done with the speculation and discuss the, umm, evidence.

[metisdead]

Some posts that were a bit difficult to understand and the replies have been removed.  Let's try to post in a coherent manner and drop the speculative posts. 

[Jimbo2014]

6 hours ago, Logosone said:

 

I think you're right, and this point is unlikely to go away because China equally can not disprove that the Wuhan lab was not the source of an accidental outbreak. Batwoman already said she tested the genomes of patients and those of the bat viruses she harvested and there was no similarity. However, people will never accept that as truth, they will always say "well, she would say that, wouldn't she?" "China would say that now, wouldn't it". So when histories of this pandemic are written in the future, most likely speculation about the outbreak starting due to an accidental escape from that lab will be included.

 

Yes, MERS Cov was able to directly infect humans from bats, no intermediary and it did bind to ACE2.

 

https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-422X-10-359/figures/2

 

It's not SL-Cov, you're right. Of course God knows, with 5000 coronaviruses estimated in Bats today, who knows what's out there, the potential for future pandemics is terrifying.

 

Even more terrifying is that if someone like Batwoman goes out there to harvest and identify the coronaviruses she could in fact be increasing the chances of a pandemic rather than decreasing it. That I believe, was her main goal, to get to know the coronaviruses before they get to us in a pandemic. Of course she's made out to be the villain for her troubles, and it is conceivable she was. We don't know.

 

 

I think most horrifying is that this is very much an international collaboration.   The NIH, lead by Fauci (he who keeps denying it came from WL), relaxed the ban on GOF experinments in 2017 and NIH funded WL to conduct such experinments on Cov Bat virus's.

https://www.nih.gov/about-nih/who-we-are/nih-director/statements/nih-lifts-funding-pause-gain-function-research

This was at the protest of many many virologists including Ebright who stated that no serious scientific gain could be made by such research but that the risks were horrendous.

2.5 years later we have a global pandemic in.... Cov Bat Virus.

And this isnt without precidence. 

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-analysis/sars-escaped-beijing-lab-twice-50137

 

Your right MERs Cov bound to Human ACE2 but with far less afinity - which would be expected in a virus making the jump between species.   A much higher afinity would have evolved with earlier cases being less infectious - perhaps for years - before such afinity would be achieved.

Sadly we are also right that we may never know.  GOF (Category 2) simulates evolution - just in a singular direction and as Ebright noted, without records from WL, would be impossible to prove. 

[Logosone]

17 minutes ago, Jimbo2014 said:

I think most horrifying is that this is very much an international collaboration.   The NIH, lead by Fauci (he who keeps denying it came from WL), relaxed the ban on GOF experinments in 2017 and NIH funded WL to conduct such experinments on Cov Bat virus's.

https://www.nih.gov/about-nih/who-we-are/nih-director/statements/nih-lifts-funding-pause-gain-function-research

This was at the protest of many many virologists including Ebright who stated that no serious scientific gain could be made by such research but that the risks were horrendous.

2.5 years later we have a global pandemic in.... Cov Bat Virus.

And this isnt without precidence. 

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-analysis/sars-escaped-beijing-lab-twice-50137

 

Your right MERs Cov bound to Human ACE2 but with far less afinity - which would be expected in a virus making the jump between species.   A much higher afinity would have evolved with earlier cases being less infectious - perhaps for years - before such afinity would be achieved.

Sadly we are also right that we may never know.  GOF (Category 2) simulates evolution - just in a singular direction and as Ebright noted, without records from WL, would be impossible to prove. 

 

Indeed the bat harvesting in China was an international effort, Batwoman was actually the recipient of the  Ordre des Palmes académiques from France and she was elected a fellow of the American Academy of Microbiology. She has many collaborators from the US.

 

In a way it is hard to argue with the initial logic, get to them before they get to us, ie find and harvest the coronaviruses and study them. In theory that should give you a head start to develop vaccines and get to know potential triggers of pandemics. However, it could well be that the mere act of harvesting these coronaviruses carries huge risks of precipitating pandemics, in which case it would be better to leave the bats well alone.

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-chinas-bat-woman-hunted-down-viruses-from-sars-to-the-new-coronavirus1/

 

 

[Mavideol]

3 hours ago, frenetic said:

Are those the only 2 nations that abused those rights? It might be better to ask the question why is there a security council at all?

good point, agree

[ChouDoufu]

ahhh, and now it all makes perfect sense! 

 

there had to be a reason for trump and pompeo to start pushing the wuhan lab conspiracy.  needed to get something exciting and controversial in the news before....

 

....whistleblower complaint filed may 05.

 

Whistleblower: US failed to prepare, sought quick virus fix

https://apnews.com/68ff635c752d056a3f6242fa555b163b

[Jimbo2014]

23 hours ago, Logosone said:

 

Indeed the bat harvesting in China was an international effort, Batwoman was actually the recipient of the  Ordre des Palmes académiques from France and she was elected a fellow of the American Academy of Microbiology. She has many collaborators from the US.

 

In a way it is hard to argue with the initial logic, get to them before they get to us, ie find and harvest the coronaviruses and study them. In theory that should give you a head start to develop vaccines and get to know potential triggers of pandemics. However, it could well be that the mere act of harvesting these coronaviruses carries huge risks of precipitating pandemics, in which case it would be better to leave the bats well alone.

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-chinas-bat-woman-hunted-down-viruses-from-sars-to-the-new-coronavirus1/

 

 

Yes there is an argument for that however as Ebright pointed out there has been no published gain from GOF experinments and the risks are horrendous.  Its very likely we are living with a realised risk right now.  The NIH lifted their moratorium on GOF in 2017 and WL was a recipient of funding which included GOF Cov / ACE2 binding experinments.  2.5 years later we have a Cov / ACE2 viral pandemic which originated a stones throw from the recipient of the funding.  I dont even see this as a conspiracy, to me its just logic that points to a very likey primary source of this virus.  Either way we should really reconsider as a society whether we want well meaning virologists undertaking these experinments, and right in the middle of a major population centre!

Edited May 6, 2020 by Jimbo2014

[candide]

4 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

ahhh, and now it all makes perfect sense! 

 

there had to be a reason for trump and pompeo to start pushing the wuhan lab conspiracy.  needed to get something exciting and controversial in the news before....

 

....whistleblower complaint filed may 05.

 

Whistleblower: US failed to prepare, sought quick virus fix

https://apnews.com/68ff635c752d056a3f6242fa555b163b

Well, it was not difficult to guess what he witnessed. Now the guy can expect a wave of rabid attacks from Trump and his supporters.

[Logosone]

3 hours ago, Jimbo2014 said:

Yes there is an argument for that however as Ebright pointed out there has been no published gain from GOF experinments and the risks are horrendous.  Its very likely we are living with a realised risk right now.  The NIH lifted their moratorium on GOF in 2017 and WL was a recipient of funding which included GOF Cov / ACE2 binding experinments.  2.5 years later we have a Cov / ACE2 viral pandemic which originated a stones throw from the recipient of the funding.  I dont even see this as a conspiracy, to me its just logic that points to a very likey primary source of this virus.  Either way we should really reconsider as a society whether we want well meaning virologists undertaking these experinments, and right in the middle of a major population centre!

It's a really interesting question. Do we want scientists to harvest coronaviruses, study them and thus use the knowledge in an attempt to fight viruses, or is that a pipe dream that carries horrendous risks of causing pandemics.

 

And yes, it's perfectly plausible that the Chinese harvested coronaviruses, worked on them in that Wuhan lab and it somehow got out. Nobody can disprove it, nobody can prove it. For now anyway. Clearly the precautions have to be massively increased, as you say no longer in population centres. Put them in a god damn underground desert facility with vault doors. If we do that at all.

[stevenl]

11 minutes ago, Logosone said:

It's a really interesting question. Do we want scientists to harvest coronaviruses, study them and thus use the knowledge in an attempt to fight viruses, or is that a pipe dream that carries horrendous risks of causing pandemics.

 

And yes, it's perfectly plausible that the Chinese harvested coronaviruses, worked on them in that Wuhan lab and it somehow got out. Nobody can disprove it, nobody can prove it. For now anyway. Clearly the precautions have to be massively increased, as you say no longer in population centres. Put them in a god damn underground desert facility with vault doors. If we do that at all.

Yes, we want scientists to study viruses, think HIV, HPV, flu and there are many more examples. More specific, for Corona viruses, flu, SARS, common cold and others, yes, we need to study.

Edited May 6, 2020 by stevenl

[Logosone]

28 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Yes, we want scientists to study viruses, think HIV, HPV, flu and there are many more examples. More specific, for Corona viruses, flu, SARS, common cold and others, yes, we need to study.

Unless it's impossible to do so without causing a pandemic.

 

If the risks of the research outweigh the benefits then a global ban could be the answer.

 

Did Batwoman actually gain anything from doing what she did, apart from causing coronaviruses to be stored in the Wuhan facility?