Flatten the Curve or Eliminate the Virus?

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, SMEinBangkok said:

Here's a 'novel' solution.  If you're old, and especially if you're a man, with underlying health conditions, then YOU shouldn't go to work, YOU should self-isolate, YOU should practice social distancing, YOU should wear a mask.

I'm old, and a man, and up to me I wouldn't do any of that except social distancing ( because I don't want others to blame me if they catch it ). I'm retired so I don't work anyway.

If I die I die, and I have a do not resuscitate living will. I'm not going to hide in my room like a frightened child if I have the choice.

 

[johnnybangkok]

15 hours ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

In other words, you are staying afloat but your 10 employees are not. Be interesting to get the perspective of your 10 recently laid off employees into this discussion. 

What a truly horrendous thing to say. You think any of this is easy? I've put in 15 years of blood, sweat and tears to build a business and give people a living and although some of my employees may lose their job, I stand to lose a job, a business, a house and most of my money and will have to start all over again. SME businesses like mine are directly in the firing line with C19 so I would appreciate a bit more understanding from people like yourself who are 'retired and on pensions' and therefore have very little skin in the game other than not catching it. My suffering is to help those 'most at risk', which I believe you probably fall into if you are old enough to be 'retired and on pensions'. 

Overall I really think none of this should have got to this stage and governments have handled it abysmally but I'll point fingers after this is all over. And yes, despite all this I still think the lockdown is appropriate given the options available.     

[johnnybangkok]

2 hours ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

Flu shots only cover some viruses and are only 40-50% effective. Pneumonia vaccines do not exist unless talking about pneumococcal bacteria.

I tell you what then, why don't you not take any of them and since you are so eager to get everything up and running, why don't you become the first to head to your local bar/restaurant/mall, shaking hands and mingling with the masses. I mean surely that'll be fine or are we only talking big when it's others who are getting infected and dying?

Self-isolation and the likes is there to protect the elderly and 'at risk' but when I hear many of the comments of you baby boomer generation perhaps I should adopt your own stance and just say to hell with it, let the dice fall as they may.

[johnnybangkok]

4 hours ago, RJRS1301 said:

I thought I would share some information regarding my niece who was a fit 35 year old female, with no underlying health issues.

The woman was diagnosed 59 days ago, now considered "recovered".

Still living with ongoing gastrointestinal cramps, ( had to be hospitalised for those following discharge after her initial 14 days treatment), continuing cardiac problems ( which did not exist prior to infection) remains short of breath on exertion, continuing fatigue, problems with balance.

This is a woman who runs a farm, is a volunteer firefighter, and fitness freak, prior to infection with Sar2Covid virus.

 

Thank you for sharing this and showing a human face to the consequences of everyones actions. These are real people we are talking about and although it sounds like your niece is still suffering (and I'm genuinely sorry to hear that), thankfully she has not joined the growing list of those that can't suffer any more.

[vermin on arrival]

23 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Official NZ government policy as announced less that 1 hour ago is that the evidence does not support mandatory mask wearing.

Really Interesting Taiwan is firmly in the other camp.

 

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3931339

 

A small excerpt from the article.

 

"TAIPEI (Taiwan News) — As Taiwan's pandemic situation has become more stable, the Central Epidemic Command Center (CECC) said Saturday (May 9) that mask-wearing has played a key factor in the island nation's success in containing the spread of novel coronavirus (COVID-19)."

 

[johnnybangkok]

12 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I'm old, and a man, and up to me I wouldn't do any of that except social distancing ( because I don't want others to blame me if they catch it ). I'm retired so I don't work anyway.

If I die I die, and I have a do not resuscitate living will. I'm not going to hide in my room like a frightened child if I have the choice.

 

Exactly the problem with giving people a 'choice'. All you can think of is how it all effects you where the real problem is whilst you are waltzing around trying desperately to social distance but failing miserably, you can be infecting so many other people.

Why can't you boomer generation understand it's not JUST about yourself? Others are at risk and you will never get blamed for someone else catching it because someone else will not know who they caught it from if everyone is just allowed to mingle freely.

And I'm glad you're happy with 'If I die I die'. Many of us with many, many more years to go are most definately not.  

[thaibeachlovers]

7 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

Self-isolation and the likes is there to protect the elderly and 'at risk' but when I hear many of the comments of you baby boomer generation perhaps I should adopt your own stance and just say to hell with it, let the dice fall as they may.

I'm elderly and I wish they had done that. The recession/ depression to come will ruin so many lives and the lack of tax puts my pension at risk.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, vermin on arrival said:

"TAIPEI (Taiwan News) — As Taiwan's pandemic situation has become more stable, the Central Epidemic Command Center (CECC) said Saturday (May 9) that mask-wearing has played a key factor in the island nation's success in containing the spread of novel coronavirus (COVID-19)."

Do they provide any scientific evidence to support that, or is it just the usual, "I think, so it must be true" rational?

[johnnybangkok]

2 hours ago, SMEinBangkok said:

This graph, like so many others, should be studied as an example of the lack of basic math and analysis skills in the vast majority of the world's population.  It's essentially nothing more than a cartoon with unlabeled x and y axis, and visually, the same area contained in each 'equation'.

 

Nearly all of the reactions to this virus have been exaggerated by a few well-meaning, but frightened people.  NONE of their predications regarding it have come true, but one from the 'opposition' has.  Global economic disaster with no plan or understanding of how to recover from it.

 

Let's take a quick look down memory lane:

3 to 5% mortality - Now looking at around .5%

Hospitals overwhelmed - Not one listed by name so far

Much more deadly than any other respiratory illness - Not according to US cases and data from the CDC

Social distancing, lock downs, business closures are the only solution - And yet the countries that have fared the worse are the ones who applied this in the most draconian terms and the others that didn't have fared better.  It's counter intuitive and it'll take time to determine what measures worked or didn't, but the results are NOT uniform.

Don't wear a mask because it won't help and you're hurting health care workers.

Wear a mask unless you're a heartless monster.

 

And on and on....the same thing is playing out in comments here and on other forums.  The catastrophe ghouls know everything about the virus because they're listening to all of the experts....of which none exist because this is the first one in modern history.  

 

Here's a 'novel' solution.  If you're old, and especially if you're a man, with underlying health conditions, then YOU shouldn't go to work, YOU should self-isolate, YOU should practice social distancing, YOU should wear a mask.

 

Oops...almost forgot.  Mankind has only eliminated two globally-present, disease-causing viruses in the past.  Smallpox and Rinderpest.  It took effective vaccines and a decades long public health campaign.  So....eliminating the virus isn't a realistic option.

'3 to 5% mortality - Now looking at around .5%' - Thanks to self-isolation and social distancing

 

'Hospitals overwhelmed - Not one listed by name so far' - Thanks to self-isolation and social distancing

 

'Much more deadly than any other respiratory illness' - Not according to US cases and data from the CDC - Thanks to self-isolation and social distancing.

 

'Here's a 'novel' solution.  If you're old, and especially if you're a man, with underlying health conditions, then YOU shouldn't go to work, YOU should self-isolate, YOU should practice social distancing, YOU should wear a mask'.

Ah yes, the VERY old suggestion that people will be so responsible and caring of others that they'll self-regulate to a point that this all goes away. Self-regulations has proven to work so well in the past that I hear there is now no longer drunk drivers, we don't need speed limits and theres no video security anywhere as no one steals any more. They're actually thinking of disbanding all courts now as you know, what's the point when everyone is so just so damn responsible.  

[vermin on arrival]

6 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Do they provide any scientific evidence to support that, or is it just the usual, "I think, so it must be true" rational?

Not that I know of, but they have had an amazingly successful record. 440 infected 6 dead and 28 days without a single local transmission and current streak of 3 days with 0 transmissions. No lockdown done and almost back to normal. So no hard science but in other articles from there they believe if both people wear masks the transmission rate would be 1 or 2% at most.

Edited May 11, 2020 by vermin on arrival

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

Others are at risk and you will never get blamed for someone else catching it because someone else will not know who they caught it from if everyone is just allowed to mingle freely.

I don't take that seriously because for the 4 weeks during lockdown thousands of people every week were mingling freely in supermarkets ( no social distancing or masks ). The evidence of my eyes does not support your contention that we are all doomed if we mingle.

How many caught it in my area- none.

[johnnybangkok]

8 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I'm elderly and I wish they had done that. The recession/ depression to come will ruin so many lives and the lack of tax puts my pension at risk.

Me, me , me

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, vermin on arrival said:

Not that I know of, but they have had an amazingly successful record. 440 infected 6 dead and 28 days without a single local transmission and current streak of 3 days with 0 transmissions. No lockdown done and almost back to normal.

Soooo, they can't prove that it was wearing masks that did it.

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, johnnybangkok said:

Me, me , me

and?

[johnnybangkok]

Just now, thaibeachlovers said:

I don't take that seriously because for the 4 weeks during lockdown thousands of people every week were mingling freely in supermarkets ( no social distancing or masks ). The evidence of my eyes does not support your contention that we are all doomed if we mingle.

How many caught it in my area- none.

Yes because your 5 square miles is exactly the same as the whole of the rest of the world. 'I didn't see it with my own eyes, therefore it can't be happening' line of rebuttal.

[vermin on arrival]

Just now, thaibeachlovers said:

Soooo, they can't prove that it was wearing masks that did it.

Currently no, but if I had to choose which path to follow I would go with the ones who have squashed the disease with no lockdown.

[thaibeachlovers]

14 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

Exactly the problem with giving people a 'choice'. All you can think of is how it all effects you where the real problem is whilst you are waltzing around trying desperately to social distance but failing miserably, you can be infecting so many other people.

Why can't you boomer generation understand it's not JUST about yourself? Others are at risk and you will never get blamed for someone else catching it because someone else will not know who they caught it from if everyone is just allowed to mingle freely.

And I'm glad you're happy with 'If I die I die'. Many of us with many, many more years to go are most definately not.  

You are apparently prepared to consign at least one entire generation to poverty, just because YOU are scared you might catch it. Me me me.

 

You have more chance of dying on the roads but I bet you never didn't go on them for fear of death. Your fear is somewhat selective. We all die sooner or later of something. Corona just isn't the killer we were told it is.

 

IMO more people probably died in Africa/ Middle East/ Asia during the same period of war and poverty than Corona, but how much mind did the west give to them? Selective concern?

[thaibeachlovers]

12 minutes ago, vermin on arrival said:

Currently no, but if I had to choose which path to follow I would go with the ones who have squashed the disease with no lockdown.

You apparently overlook the reality that the disease has NOT been squashed. It's still lurking in carriers, waiting, waiting.

[vermin on arrival]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You apparently overlook the reality that the disease has NOT been squashed. It's still lurking in carriers, waiting, waiting.

In Taiwan it seems to be well under control. However, one should remain vigilant and they are. And there, mask wearing will still be the norm in public transportation and crowded public places for quite a while I believe.

[vermin on arrival]

Here is an article about a study/model that is in favor of mask usage with links to other evidence from the article:

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/05/masks-covid-19-infections-would-plummet-new-study-says?fbclid=IwAR1LryGzu5-60MlFn56vrg_UXSh8FVqR7vPLfJZZVZpg0UeerhIPq3S5liA

 

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2004.13553.pdf

 

https://rs-delve.github.io/reports/2020/05/04/face-masks-for-the-general-public.html

 

https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202004.0203/v1

 

 

[johnnybangkok]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You are apparently prepared to consign at least one entire generation to poverty, just because YOU are scared you might catch it. Me me me.

 

You have more chance of dying on the roads but I bet you never didn't go on them for fear of death. Your fear is somewhat selective. We all die sooner or later of something. Corona just isn't the killer we were told it is.

 

IMO more people probably died in Africa/ Middle East/ Asia during the same period of war and poverty than Corona, but how much mind did the west give to them? Selective concern?

That is literally the opposite of what I am saying. I am personally in a very low risk group so no, I'm not worried about myself. I am however very concerned for others.

And stop with the drama of 'consigning at least one entire generation to poverty'. It's not going to happen and even if it did, I very much doubt that you care that much.

Nice try but no cigar.

[lkv]

2 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

Me, me , me

Of course me, me, me.

 

Or are you saying that you care more about my 78 year old mother here in Europe than yourself and your own employees?

 

I will tell her Johnny in Bangkok is concerned about her health. Cause a few weeks ago I told her she'd better get sick at 78 than 85.

[SMEinBangkok]

4 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

Exactly the problem with giving people a 'choice'. All you can think of is how it all effects you where the real problem is whilst you are waltzing around trying desperately to social distance but failing miserably, you can be infecting so many other people.

Why can't you boomer generation understand it's not JUST about yourself? Others are at risk and you will never get blamed for someone else catching it because someone else will not know who they caught it from if everyone is just allowed to mingle freely.

And I'm glad you're happy with 'If I die I die'. Many of us with many, many more years to go are most definately not.  

Then go away and live in the woods away from all the people who you're now deadly frightened of.  That's a personal choice, too.  If you choose to live around people, then you have to accept that you might catch a respiratory tract disease with a .5% mortality.  

 

My lifestyle will not be dictated by frightened people like you.  Decide what is best for yourself and your family and move forward with that.  Leave the rest of us alone.  If tomorrow you decide to become afraid of cars and the fact that some people who drive cars kill others, then I should park my car to make you feel less afraid of walking around?

 

Your personal fear and phobias should never have a say over anyone else's personal freedom. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by SMEinBangkok
Content

[SMEinBangkok]

3 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

3 to 5% mortality - Now looking at around .5%' - Thanks to self-isolation and social distancing

 

'Hospitals overwhelmed - Not one listed by name so far' - Thanks to self-isolation and social distancing

 

'Much more deadly than any other respiratory illness' - Not according to US cases and data from the CDC - Thanks to self-isolation and social distancing.

You're not very bright are you?  A disease's mortality rate has nothing to do with mitigation measures, which if effective, would show up in the transmission rate.  I know...two big words and more math, but there you go.  The reason the mortality rate is continuing to go down is due to the greater number of asymptomatic infections being discovered through serology studies and the zombie apocalypse that people like you predicated, failing to come true.

 

There is no proof of self-isolation/social distancing being the cure for the coronavirus.  On the contrary there are studies suggesting it has no appreciable effect, and nations that did not follow these rules have fared better.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm

 

You're just another frightened germophobe who doesn't like to read much.

Edited May 11, 2020 by SMEinBangkok
content

[johnnybangkok]

3 hours ago, lkv said:

Of course me, me, me.

 

Or are you saying that you care more about my 78 year old mother here in Europe than yourself and your own employees?

 

I will tell her Johnny in Bangkok is concerned about her health. Cause a few weeks ago I told her she'd better get sick at 78 than 85.

That's excatly what I'm saying. Why is this so hard for some of you to comprehend?

And please pass on my regards to your mother; even though she did a lousy job teaching you empathy. 

[johnnybangkok]

2 hours ago, SMEinBangkok said:

Then go away and live in the woods away from all the people who you're now deadly frightened of.  That's a personal choice, too.  If you choose to live around people, then you have to accept that you might catch a respiratory tract disease with a .5% mortality.  

 

My lifestyle will not be dictated by frightened people like you.  Decide what is best for yourself and your family and move forward with that.  Leave the rest of us alone.  If tomorrow you decide to become afraid of cars and the fact that some people who drive cars kill others, then I should park my car to make you feel less afraid of walking around?

 

Your personal fear and phobias should never have a say over anyone else's personal freedom. 

If you cannot adhere to the good of the masses over self-interest then I think it's you who should be living in the woods, far, far away from society. 

And as clearly stated many, many times, it is not fear that is driving my thoughts rather concern and empathy. Something you are obviously sorely lacking.

[chessman]

3 hours ago, SMEinBangkok said:

My lifestyle will not be dictated by frightened people like you.  Decide what is best for yourself and your family and move forward with that.  Leave the rest of us alone.  If tomorrow you decide to become afraid of cars and the fact that some people who drive cars kill others, then I should park my car to make you feel less afraid of walking around?

 

Your personal fear and phobias should never have a say over anyone else's personal freedom. 

 Nice try but you don’t get the choice. Most polls are showing general support for the measures in most countries. 
 

it seems the average person understands the situation a little better than you.

[SMEinBangkok]

1 hour ago, johnnybangkok said:

If you cannot adhere to the good of the masses over self-interest then I think it's you who should be living in the woods, far, far away from society.

Sounds like something straight out of the Communist Manifesto....

 

If you had any real concern or empathy for the "masses", then you would go with the 99.96% of the world's population that's completely unaffected by this virus (that's a pretty big mass, right?).  But, you don't have any concern for anyone other than that fearful face that stares back at you everyday.

[SMEinBangkok]

49 minutes ago, chessman said:

 Nice try but you don’t get the choice. Most polls are showing general support for the measures in most countries. 
 

it seems the average person understands the situation a little better than you.

The Great Pandemic has triumphed over personal choice and freewill!

 

Long Live the Pandemic!

 

At last, I understand the average person and average intellect....someone like you.

[SMEinBangkok]

1 hour ago, johnnybangkok said:

That's excatly what I'm saying. Why is this so hard for some of you to comprehend?

And please pass on my regards to your mother; even though she did a lousy job teaching you empathy. 

And to your limited understanding of human society, we can add passive-aggressive....haha!

 

Oh...is that more of your empathy for the masses?