Sweden - is the rest of the world dumb, blind or worse ?

[DeadBite]

Science expected to see the virus through the microscope, but it couldn't, even with the more advanced ones invented later.
The next "proof" for the existence of the virus came through genetics.

The narrative is that the virus is still too small to be seen, but can be detected through it's genes (that can be seen)

The science of genetics is sound, however the use of genetics by virology is not sound.

 

(Those pictures show no virus, I checked them already)

[nauseus]

41 minutes ago, UbonThani said:

Thats not so. Most countries few cases.

It is so. Most countries few cases but without lockdowns are just starting to suffer.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, yuyiinthesky said:

Looking at immunity and all other corona viruses it is to be expected that SARS-CoV-2 behaves the same and there is a good level of immunity.

And here again is a good deal of assumption.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Aland said:

Way to gaslight bud, Belgium’s deaths per million is more then double Sweden’s. The UK, Italy, France and Spain are all higher then Sweden, nice try but most of us know how to google.

You are saying something that was not said - so no gaslighting.

[Odysseus123]

Goodness me..so..absolutely no academic,medical/scientific/mathematical/historical research qualifications admitted to by a significant number of contributors to this (or any other) thread..

 

It reminds me of a famous quote pertaining to the internet.."Behind every self opiniated poster there are nine others trying to get out"

[nauseus]

47 minutes ago, paulikens said:

we knowingly let a lot of people die every year through flu,why dont we lockdown every year when its flu season? and im far from saying we shouldnt have done nothing far from it but this is way too extreme shutting the world down. makes no sense. whatever happen to 'life goes on'?

Ok then, you can be the one to say who's life can go on, and who's cannot. Good luck living with that.

[nauseus]

26 minutes ago, DeadBite said:

Science expected to see the virus through the microscope, but it couldn't, even with the more advanced ones invented later.
The next "proof" for the existence of the virus came through genetics.

The narrative is that the virus is still too small to be seen, but can be detected through it's genes (that can be seen)

The science of genetics is sound, however the use of genetics by virology is not sound.

 

(Those pictures show no virus, I checked them already)

Try these:

 

https://www.who.int/csr/sars/coronavirus/en/

[DeadBite]

@nauseus seen them too, these are whole cells

 

We only have theoretical graphs of viruses, they have never been isolated.
Virology claims to have isolated the viruses through genetics, but it is a false claim with catastrophic consequences.

Edited May 18, 2020 by DeadBite

[DeadBite]

Any success vaccinations may have had in the past, is not because of the correctness of the virus theory, it is because injecting a weakened form of the disease to society provides eventually herd immunity!

[Odysseus123]

1 minute ago, DeadBite said:

Any success vaccinations may have had in the past, is not because of the correctness of the virus theory, it is because injecting a weakened form of the disease to society provides eventually herd immunity!

Oh..okay..

 

And that is based on your highly qualified medical opinion is it?

 

Just exactly what are your highly qualified academic/medical/scientific/epidemiological/histoical qualifications or work experiences in this or any other disease related matter?

 

Here I have made it easy for you-----just fill in the blanks..

[Peter Denis]

8 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

...

And that is based on your highly qualified medical opinion is it?

Just exactly what are your highly qualified academic/medical/scientific/epidemiological/histoical qualifications or work experiences in this or any other disease related matter?

...

Tit for tat.

Since you obviously attach great value to the 'right' qualifications in order to express an opinion, it would be nice if you could also post your qualifications to underpin yours.

[Odysseus123]

15 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Tit for tat.

Since you obviously attach great value to the 'right' qualifications in order to express an opinion, it would be nice if you could also post your qualifications to underpin yours.

Good on yer Peter Denis!

 

However as I don't set myself up as an idiot savant pertaining to the Corona virus..

 

I shall merely say-as I have said many times on this forum (check it out)-that I have worked treating many diseases on Bougainville,Choiseul,Guadalcanal,Banda Aceh (Indonesia) amd Mumbai..actually 100 ks north of that gigantic city..

 

What have you done Peter Denis?

Edited May 18, 2020 by Odysseus123

[scubascuba3]

5 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

Good on yer Peter Denis!

 

However as I don't set myself up as an idiot savant pertaining to the Corona virus..

 

I shall merely say-as I have said many times on this forum (check it out)-that I have worked treating many diseases on Bougainville,Choiseul,Guadalcanal,Banda Aceh (Indonesia) amd Mumbai..actually 100 ks north of that gigantic city..

 

What have you done Peter Denis?

I think we've had enough of experts, they are to blame for the crazy lockdowns. I just read in the UK that 500k people have done a suicide prevention online course. Well done experts

[Odysseus123]

15 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

I think we've had enough of experts, they are to blame for the crazy lockdowns. I just read in the UK that 500k people have done a suicide prevention online course. Well done experts

 

 

Somebody has to be blamed for the crazy lockdowns,eh?

 

 

[scubascuba3]

Just now, Odysseus123 said:

 

 

Somebody has to be blamed for the crazy lockdowns,eh?

 

 

of course let's start with WHO who didn't take account of the economic consequences. The J model everyone seems to use is just too simplistic

[faraday]

1 hour ago, DeadBite said:

Any success vaccinations may have had in the past, is not because of the correctness of the virus theory, it is because injecting a weakened form of the disease to society provides eventually herd immunity

There are live virus & inactivated injections.

 

Not weakened forms.

[Odysseus123]

11 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

of course let's start with WHO who didn't take account of the economic consequences. The J model everyone seems to use is just too simplistic

Ah...of course the WHO

 

Aren't the world's experts breaching a path to your door as you seem to have a handle on this thing?

[scubascuba3]

2 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

Ah...of course the WHO

 

Aren't the world's experts breaching a path to your door as you seem to have a handle on this thing?

They are too busy following the science 555

[Peter Denis]

42 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

Good on yer Peter Denis!

...

What have you done Peter Denis?

Not that it is relevant for this thread, but since you insist on qualifications to express an opinion.

No medical qualifications whatsoever... 555

Only forty years of experience in quality management and business excellence consulting, applying BCS (basic common sense) principles in all kinds of industries/service sectors world-wide, including health-care sector.

[Odysseus123]

9 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Not that it is relevant for this thread, but since you insist on qualifications to express an opinion.

No medical qualifications whatsoever... 555

Only forty years of experience in quality management and business excellence consulting, applying BCS (basic common sense) principles in all kinds of industries/service sectors world-wide, including health-care sector.

Well done!

 

And yes-I insist in some form of qualifications if I ask for a workmanlike opinion on anything.

Would I ask you to build a bridge?

Or treat an outbreak of Cholera for example?

Or even construct one of those crazy IKEA sofas?

 

Nope-ditto epidemics or pandemics.

 

That's life.

[Scott]

A few off-topic, troll and inflammatory posts and replies reported and removed along with replies.   Keep it civil and stay on the topic. 

 

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, DeadBite said:

@nauseus seen them too, these are whole cells

 

We only have theoretical graphs of viruses, they have never been isolated.
Virology claims to have isolated the viruses through genetics, but it is a false claim with catastrophic consequences.

Yes, the whole cell and nothing but the cell. You said they weren't visible through the microscope. They are.

[Odysseus123]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Yes, the whole cell and nothing but the cell. You said they weren't visible through the microscope. They are.

"They must go on posting until they get it right..."

 

Dooley Franks from Parramatta,

Edited May 18, 2020 by Odysseus123

[Stygge]

 

Whatever strategy different countries apply to the corona virus, they have one thing in common.

Everyone engages in wishful thinking.

The countries that, in the beginning of the pandemic, quickly shut down their communities did so to save human lives from the point of view that a vaccine should come quickly. By vigorously trying to limit the spread of infection, it is hoped that many people will be saved for as long as the vaccine will then give them protection.

The countries that, in the beginning of the pandemic, quickly shut down their communities did so to save human lives from the point of view that a vaccine should come quickly. By vigorously trying to limit the spread of infection, it is hoped that many people will be saved for as long as the vaccine will then give them protection.

The strategy contains two major weaknesses.

As many countries are now discovering, communities cannot be shut down for more than 1-2 months. In order for the economies not to collapse, they must open up again with the risk of increased spread of infection.

The biggest problem is that everyone obviously assumes that a vaccine comes even though there is so much about this virus, Sars-cov-2, we do not know.

Admittedly, resources around the world are never used to produce a vaccine, but it is still not possible to do so. Enormous efforts have been made for a long time to obtain a vaccine against another virus, HIV, without success. 35 million people have died of HIV since 1981.

Generally, it is difficult to get a vaccine against coronavirus, many experts believe. When the Sars epidemic swept across parts of the world in 2003, a vaccine was targeted but went bite.

Although it would go this time, it may take time. It is difficult to find experts who dare to believe that it will be faster than 12-18 months. And already that would be a record.

On the other hand, there are politicians who express the view that things should go faster. Donald Trump, for example, said this weekend that a vaccine must be available before the end of the year. Otherwise, he intends to open up regardless.

The difficult thing is not to produce a vaccine in a laboratory, but to show that it works in practice without serious side effects.

When and if a vaccine exists, it should produce in the hundreds of millions of doses. How long will it take?

Those who, like Sweden, advocated a strategy characterized by voluntariness and less of total closure, of course also hope for a vaccine but believe that it is so far ahead that the population before it will develop herd immunity.

The Swedish Public Health Authority claims that this is not a strategy but rather a consequence of the spread of the infection more generally if one does not take draconian measures.

Strategy or not, the expertise may have exaggerated the rate at which covid infection is spreading in populations.

Asymptomatic infection

Tests done in a sample of that Spain are one of the hardest hit countries in Europe and many thought more people would have borne the disease. For herd immunity, 40-60 percent of the population is required to be infected.

In Belgium, the country with the highest mortality rate in covid-19 in relation to the population, larger studies have been done every three weeks. Six weeks ago, three percent of all Belgians carried antibodies. Three weeks ago six percent.

In other words, the infection does not appear to spread as quickly as many have assumed.

Many had hoped that there would have been a large number of individuals who carried the infection without even noticing it, so-called asymptomatic infection. But in that case, they have not developed antibodies that have resulted in the tests.

If you look at the situation, it is only to be noted that none of the main strategies have any guaranteed path to success. Hopefully there will be a vaccine but no one can guarantee it today or say when.

This means that countries that shut down fast and hard have very few people in the population that are immune and thus they take a big risk if they open up completely. A country like New Zealand that has almost eliminated the virus and has low death rates must keep its borders fully closed until there is a vaccine or risk the virus will return

 

Countries like Sweden can also not be sure of success. The death toll is already high in relation to the population, Sweden is in sixth place in the world, and it does not look like herd immunity in the near future will overcome the infection. For Sweden one can notice that 90 % of the deaths refers to people over 70 years with underlying symptoms. And 75 % of the deaths have taken place in elderly care homes. Sweden failed to protect this vulnerable group in time. Now great efforts are made to remedy this mistake and the contagion is drastically diminshed but still ongoing. But if you taket hese numbers aside the rest of the population is just marginally affected. Taken these numbers aside Swedens numbers can be compared to all the neighbouring countries.

The most accessible strategy at present seems to be learning to live with the virus. This means, for a long time, continued social distancing, work from home for those who can, keep a distance in public spaces but still keep the economy going.

But it only works if it is combined with extensive testing of both risk groups and the population at large. Only countries that test widely can keep track of any new virus outbreaks and quickly isolate those carrying the infection. And you need both Covid 19 tests and antibody tests.

Testing is the key.

[JensenZ]

21 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

 

The corona virus is not the same as  the human immunodeficiency virus. As such, they are quite different and this impacts treatment of infection and vaccine design.  HIV  attacks the  immune system, specifically CD4 cells. As these cells die off, the   body becomes vulnerable to opportunistic infections.   SARS Cov-2 causes the immune system to over react to an infection, in the lungs.  In plain language, one virus robs the body of an immune response and the other virus causes an over reaction.   It's like trying to compare anorexia and  morbid obesity. Both are mental illness induced, but that's where the illness similarities end.

 

BTW, there are corona virus vaccines that are available and that have been around for some time. Corona viruses come in different varieties. Some are gut related and others are respiratory related. Canine coronavirus disease (Ccov) is preventable by vaccine.  You would not be eating your pork products if not for the University of Saskatchewan, Canada's  advances in porcine  corona virus  vaccines . Vaccine for transmissible gastroenteritis virus (TGEV) has been available for decades. A vaccine for porcine epidemic diarrhea virus (PEDV) was introduced some years ago.  U of Sask was  fairly advanced in its research on 

a vaccine for  porcine respiratory CoV (PRCV).  The difference here is that  some advances have already been made in respect to some corona viruses. No real advance has been made in respect to HIV. This is due to their different mechanisms of infection, reproduction and  genome. This is why there is a n elevated likelihood of a corona respiratory virus vaccine.

 

More nonsense. Do you really believe that anyone with an IQ over 90 will accept your nonsensical statement tossed out with the sole intent of misleading?

Which flu and over which time period?  If we take seasonal flu for this year, we see dramatic declines in the seasonal infection rate. The change is attributable to the Covid 19 prevention measures which are also effective against other respiratory infections and the common cold.

I did think twice about using HIV as an example of vaccinations being elusive as it is a different virus.

 

However, my assertion that no coronavirus vaccination has been made in the past is based on my reading from major publications. I'm not a virologist, so like most other people I get from information from mainstream media.

 

Maybe this reporter didn't get the memo, or requires a more thorough education.

 

===================================================================================

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-vaccine-may-be-impossible-to-produce-scientists-covid-2020-4

 

Some excerpts:

 

Scientists fear that it may prove impossible to produce a working coronavirus vaccine and believe the world may have to simply learn to adapt to the permanent threat of COVID-19.

 

The UK's Chief Medical Officer, Christopher Whitty, told a Parliamentary committee on Friday that there was "concerning" evidence suggesting that it may not be possible to stimulate immunity to the virus.

 

"The first question we do not know is 'do you get natural immunity to this disease if you have had it, for a prolonged period of time?'" Whitty said.

 

"Now if we don't then it doesn't make a vaccine impossible but it makes it much less likely and we simply don't know yet.

 

No coronavirus vaccine has ever been produced 

 

Doubts about the possibility of a viable vaccine are based largely on the fact that no vaccine has ever been approved for use in the US or UK against other forms of coronavirus.

Whitty told the committee the evidence from other forms of coronavirus was that "immunity [to the virus] wanes relatively quickly."

 

=====================================================================================

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by JensenZ

[farang51]

@Stygge
No, the countries did not shut down hoping for a vaccine to come Quickly. They shut down to avoid too many patients in hospitals like in Italy. I am sure the experts told the governments in the various countries that a vaccine would not come for some time.

By the way, herd immunity takes time too. The experts I have read on the subject figure it will take 2-3 years to achieve herd immunity. That is if immunity occurs, which is likely although not a given.

Also, herd immunity does not mean the virus will stop spreading. If we had herd immunity tomorrow, the virus would still spread for some time.

@JensenZ
According to Fauci, a vaccine was developed for the 2002 SARS virus; however, it was moot as the virus died out before the vaccine was ready.
Fauci talks about this in the video below, starting at 27 minutes. The whole video is worth seeing, it is from 2017.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNXGAxGJgQI

[Stygge]

35 minutes ago, farang51 said:

@Stygge
No, the countries did not shut down hoping for a vaccine to come Quickly. They shut down to avoid too many patients in hospitals like in Italy. I am sure the experts told the governments in the various countries that a vaccine would not come for some time.

By the way, herd immunity takes time too. The experts I have read on the subject figure it will take 2-3 years to achieve herd immunity. That is if immunity occurs, which is likely although not a given.

Also, herd immunity does not mean the virus will stop spreading. If we had herd immunity tomorrow, the virus would still spread for some time.

@JensenZ
According to Fauci, a vaccine was developed for the 2002 SARS virus; however, it was moot as the virus died out before the vaccine was ready.
Fauci talks about this in the video below, starting at 27 minutes. The whole video is worth seeing, it is from 2017.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNXGAxGJgQI

If that so then Sweden and "the countries" had the same strategy. But different means. Restrictions contra lock down. Restrictions seem to to the job. Sweden can cope with all patients coming.

[farang51]

12 minutes ago, Stygge said:

If that so then Sweden and "the countries" had the same strategy. But different means. Restrictions contra lock down. Restrictions seem to to the job. Sweden can cope with all patients coming.

Luckily the virus seems to be less deadly than what was first feared, if not, Sweden's strategy would have meant many more people dead. Still, Sweden does have quite a lot deaths per million, and if you look at this chart from Financial Times, Sweden is the country at the very top with daily deaths at the moment. Even countries with more total deaths are below Sweden now. 

https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-chart/?areas=swe&areas=dnk&areasRegional=usny&areasRegional=usnj&cumulative=0&logScale=1&perMillion=1&values=deaths

 

If they continue like this, they will overtake France in total deaths per million in a couple of weeks.

 

Also, I think the strategy differs somewhat. Sweden was sort of aiming at herd immunity, even though they seem to change their minds about that every now and then. Denmark was trying to make sure the hospitals could cope, and Norway was trying to stop the virus altogether.

[Scott]

Off-topic, troll, inflammatory and replies removed.  

 

[paddypower]

6 hours ago, farang51 said:

 

the only comonality that I see is that this virus, whatever its source, kills the elderly and those with underlying health conditions. Nursing homes seem to have been badly managed- and that's in hindsight, as nobody foretold the nature of the virus (except for Fauci's generalized prediction that it would arrive). The other thing is, Italy got hit badly, because (a) they have a disportonate % of elderly in their population and (b) they allowed large gatherings at soccer matches, early on. One or more soccer matches had 50k, where a large nmber of attendees had travelled from Spain. Persumably upon returning, without any border testing, this may have resulted in those 2 countires leading in deaths in central Europe. Denmark has invested in superb medical facilities. So they already had adequate hospital beds - and, this is a guess, the recovery rate from hospitalized patients is better than most other countries.

Edited May 19, 2020 by paddypower
wish to undo quote