Gulf Of Thailand Won't Rise With Global Warming, Expert Claims

[Groongthep]

I want to think Groothep ( thank Groongthep) for supporting my concept of BIG OIL. Why he thinks govt. control over oil companies and foreign control is not part of my BIG OIL concept is strange to me.........but continue adding to the list.

I didn't think govt. control over oil companies and foreign control was part of your BIG OIL concept because the term "big oil" has always been used to refer to the major privately owned companies like Exxon, Shell, Chevron, FINA etc. How was I to know you were making up your own new definitions.

I forgot to add the entire automobile industry as a component of BIG OIL.

Oh really? Has anyone else in the world informed the auto industry that they are now part of "big oil"? I don't think so.

One BOL said that I was misleading the public about BIG OIL and that BIG OIL was working hard to move us past fossil fuel use to a second generation energy system (did not use those exact words but that was the meaning of his post).

I disagree..........look at this: http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/energy/st...ays-exxon-mobil

I did take a look at it; here's a quote from it:

“We’re going to be very forthright in not accepting something that is not completely scientifically proven,” Tillerson said. “We’re not skeptics. We’re just approaching this the way we would approach any scientific challenge, and it’s a serious challenge.”

They are doing a small amount of R&D for two reasons: 1) public image control (makes them look like they are doing something positive), and 2) legal tactic (they are getting sued with more lawsuits to come and this helps them a bit)

Please cite one legitimate lawsuit where they are being sued for operating an oil company. Operating an oil company is not against the law in any country that I know of.

BIG OIL also wants the second generation energy system to be big and centralized so that it can be controlled by them..........no power shifting to the individual.

CENTRALIZED ENERGY = SLAVERY

DECENTRALIZED ENERGY = FREEDOM

YOUR POSTS = TOTAL SPECULATION

Lastly, please let me reiterate that I do not refute global warming. The shrinking of the Arctic and Antarctic ice caps alone seem to prove it is happening. My complaint is with the arguments about what (and who) is causing it. Finger pointing, scapegoating and unsubstantiated accusations don't lead to much credibility in any discussion. Villainising the oil companies for producing a product that everyone buys and uses is pointless also. Why should the private oil companies be saddled with all the responsibility of paying for the research as has been suggested by JR. Given their profits it is only right that they contribute proportionately but governments also owe it to their citizens to do their share as well. This problem affects us all and hence we should all do our own part by reducing our personal consumption too.

If all parties involved would attempt to be more objective maybe we would get somewhere without causing unnecessary pain and expense along the way. If you haven't noticed, we are in the midst of a global recession. Let's don't make things worse by playing the blame game.

[chuckd]

By omitting the information above, you make it sound like he has done something illegal, like taking all of the money, depositing it in a bank, doing no research with it, and running off to the Bahamas to sip Margaritas under the sun.

This is probably what happened with the money. From the looks of things he did very little research...at least the honest kind.

Your words, not ours.

[JR Texas]

Lawsuits against BIG OIL.........try Google. Loads of them and they are not for being sued for being an oil company

Definitions? Try reading how many times I have connected BIG OIL and BIG GOVERNMENT prior to this.

You think the automobile industry is disconnected from BIG OIL...they have no mutual interests?

Yeah, right........we all believe you.

[teatree]

EPA Poised to Declare CO2 a Public Danger - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126003232518778287.html

CO2 is one of the four building blocks of life!!!! (along with oxygen, water and sun light) - trees use it to photosynthesise!!!

They talk to us like we're children.

[Groongthep]

Lawsuits against BIG OIL.........try Google. Loads of them and they are not for being sued for being an oil company

I just typed in "Lawsuits against big oil" into the Google search engine. Got lots of lawsuits, mostly liability claims and governments wanting to nationalize their assests but none had anything to do with global warming which is the topic of this thread. I'll add one of these things too because they are irritating and you seem to like them so much.

Definitions? Try reading how many times I have connected BIG OIL and BIG GOVERNMENT prior to this.

Uh....because you have connected them doesn't constitute a definition. In the US anyway, "big government" is a term usually used by conservative republicans to refer to democratic lead governments which tend to want to tax and put controls on big oil companies not help them. I'll toss one of these in for good measure too

You think the automobile industry is disconnected from BIG OIL...they have no mutual interests?

They have a few mutual interests, like producing cleaner burning fuels and building cars that use less gasoline that people want to buy. The car companies build gas guzzlers because there is a niche market of consumers who want to buy them. They don't build them for the sake of helping the oil industry.

Yeah, right........we all believe you.

Maybe you don't but I suspect a lot of others do. ....Oh yeah ->

All I ask is that the discussion be at least a little bit objective. You have obviously made up your mind that you have chosen your "side" and you're sticking to it. As I have already said, I do not refute global warming, only the faultly "science" that is being used to place the blame for it on the same old easy targets i.e.) oil companies and governments. Obviously the consumers are major culprits but taking shots at the big guys is always so much easier and fashionable.

[mojaco]

Thanks Groongthep for bringing some sane comments into this attempt to frighten us with the very evil spirit "BIG OIL". I wonder how much JR would like living without industry? He could come to my part of Thailand and live with the native Hill Tribe people who use no electricity or other modern conveniences. I am sure they would like to trade places with him so he doesn't have to worry about his nemisis "BIG OIL"

Edited December 7, 2009 by mojaco

[JR Texas]

I think I should post, again, an earlier post. It seemed to really upset the BOLs. Think about this:

In the late 40s the ENIAC was developed......it was the first computer........it was very big (as big as a house); it was immobile; it was expensive. Here is what it looked like:

Because we decided to do so and believed it was possible, we now have this:

It is a Blackberry........it does a lot more than the ENIAC (along with your laptop/notebook computer)........it is small (can fit in your pocket); it is mobile; it is not expensive (compared to the ENIAC).

Going from the ENIAC to the Blackberry represents a massive improvement.

Now, look at a typical fossil fuel energy plant 50 years ago:

It is similar to the ENIAC........very big; immobile; expensive........not for personal use.

Here is a typical fossil fuel energy plant today:

Does it look like the Blackberry model or the ENIAC model........it looks like the ENIAC model......still very big; immobile; expensive......not for personal use.

In short, because we decided to do so, we made great improvements in the computer field.

Because we decided not to do so, we made almost no improvements in the energy field......still dominated by a big, centralized, immobile, expensive, energy platform...........one that is damaging the planet and causing massive social and economic problems.

BIG OIL (that means the entire fossil fuel industry and its major backers/players, including BIG GOVERNMENT, banks, and the automobile industry) wants us to continue using its destructive products for the next 100 years.

We can't afford that..........it is time to move forward on the energy front. We must move away from our Stone Age Fossil Fuel Energy platform and develop an energy system that has the qualities of the Blackberry.

It is one key to the improvement of the quality of life (all life) on the planet. The other key is a massive reduction in the size of the human population.

If we do not do these two things, we have had it........game over.

CENTRALIZED ENERGY = CONTINUED ECONOMIC SLAVERY AND DEPENDENCY ON BIG OIL, AS WELL AS ENVIRONMENTAL DESTRUCTION AND SOCIAL CHAOS

DECENTRALIZED ENERGY = FREEDOM AND THE EMPOWERMENT OF THE INDIVIDUAL

BIG OIL = THE FOSSIL FUEL ENERGY MAFIA

As I write this, the ENERGY MAFIA is trying to assassinate reason/science.......the ENERGY MAFIA is trying to confuse the public.......the ENERGY MAFIA is trying to keep us under its control for the next 100 years.

What you do about it is up to you.

[chuckd]

JR:

You keep regurgitating the same old dogma.

Please come up with some new photos and arguments and perhaps, only perhaps, somebody might do something except laugh at you.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Why.. I haven't followed this debate at all but I liked JR's post even though it's somewhat hyperbolic.. After all you could make the comparison with a car as well; a VW Beetle form the 1940s isn't radically different from what we drive today; there's be evolutional progress (as there has been with energy), bit it's not like a car folds into your pocket and a 1 hour charge keeps it running for a day or two.

Still, the underlying point is that if people's minds are REALLY put to it, a lot more energy could be generated around people's houses for personal use.

[JR Texas]

You really know you are sticking a knife in the BOLs when they post all of the smileys and cheesys......... I think I am hitting a nerve........sort of like doing a root canal on them.

Here are some links to interesting stuff, including some lawsuits against BIG OIL/ENERGY MAFIA/BOLS:

Links to research on on global warming and climate change, many with viewpoints of both BOLs --BIG OIL (Energy Mafia) LOBBYISTS/skeptics--and responsible scientists who are actually working on the climate change challenge:

http://www.realclimate.org/

http://ossfoundation.us/

http://www.skepticalscience.com/

http://greenfyre.wordpress.com/denier-vs-skeptic/

http://www.grist.org/article/series/skeptics/

http://www.whrc.org/resources/online_publi...ic_evidence.htm

http://co2now.org/index.php?option=com_content

Link to investigate the backgrounds of spokespersons on both sides:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=SourceWatch

Links to some lawsuits against BIG OIL/ENERGY MAFIA (lawsuits actually go back over ten years………there are lots of them and many more will be forthcoming)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008...s.climatechange (Hansen’s view about the Energy Mafia’s (BIG OIL’s) crimes against humanity)

http://solveclimate.com/blog/20091206/civi...-change-deniers (citizens taking the skeptics to court)

http://www.scienceprogress.org/2008/07/glo...rming-in-court/

(more legal action against BIG OIL/ENERGY MAFIA)

http://www.theenergylawblog.com/2009/08/ar...-valorem-taxes/ (still more legal action)

http://patagonia-under-siege.blogspot.com/...gainst-big.html (and still more)

The list goes on and on and on…with lots more to come…it is similar to what happened when the public finally came to terms with what the tobacco industry was doing…..but this time it is BIG OIL (ENERGY MAFIA) that will pay the price for its illegal activities/crimes against humanity.

Link exposing the destructive activities of ExxonMobile (an ENERGY MAFIA GIANT): s thttp://www.exxposeexxon.com/he world's

In addition, I really think they will not like this post:http://solveclimate.com/blog/20091206/civil-conspiracy-lawsuits-filed-against-climate-change-deniers

Civil Conspiracy Lawsuits Filed Against Climate Change Deniers

by Linda McClure - Dec 6th, 2009 in Cap on Emissions Big Business Environmentalists Katrina Kivalina Lawsuits

The need for climate legislation is based upon a wide body of scientific evidence that shows global warming is happening now and warns of climactic changes as that warming continues.

Skeptics and some in the fossil fuels industries have joined forces to claim that the climate science is invalid, hoping to decrease public and Congressional support by tainting the foundation for legislation.

In many ways, their disinformation campaign carries similarities to the tactics of the tobacco industry that "misled the public about the scientific evidence linking smoking to lung cancer and heart disease," the Union of Concerned Scientists notes in its report Smoke, Mirrors and Hot air: How ExxonMobil Uses Big Tobacco's Tactics to Manufacture Uncertainty on Climate Science."

James Hoggan's book Climate Cover-Up: The Crusade to Deny Global Warming further investigates how disinformation campaigns by several groups may be linked to decreasing support by the public according to opinion polls.

British government advisor Robert Watson, an expert in atmospheric science for nearly 30 years, recently described how those disinformation campaigns "clearly put the world at risk of far more adverse effects of climate change."

"Those that have opposed a deal on climate, which would include elements of the fossil fuel industry, have clearly made making a 2C target [limiting the temperature rise to no more than 2 degrees Celsius above pre-industrial times] much, much harder, if not impossible," Watson told the Guardian.

Should there be legal accountability when people intentionally mislead the public given the gravity of the harms to people and environment caused by global warming?

Some have answered yes by filing lawsuits seeking to hold deniers legally responsible for a civil conspiracy. The legal theory is that the defendants intentionally presented disinformation on the existence of climate change and its impacts in order to mislead the public and the government to prevent any regulation of greenhouse gases. This deceit prevented or delayed remedies to address global warming impacts occurring today, and those impacts harmed the plaintiffs.

In two recent cases, landowners and residents filed lawsuits that included a claim of climate change civil conspiracy.

The Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, in Comer v. Murphy Oil, upheld the right of residents and landowners of the Mississippi Gulf coast to proceed with a putative class action against 30 oil and gas companies seeking compensatory and punitive damages based on nuisance, trespass, and negligence.

The plaintiffs alleged that defendants emitted greenhouse gasses that contributed to global warming that caused rising sea levels and increased the intensity of Hurricane Katrina, resulting in the destruction of public and private property.

The complaint also alleged that certain defendants knew for many years about the dangers of greenhouse gases, yet disseminated misinformation to paint global warming as theory rather than fact in order to decrease public awareness and divert public policy from the need to restrict emissions.

The conspiracy "delayed and otherwise interfered with individual and government action to address global warming, and consequently contributed to plaintiffs' injuries ...," the complaint states.

While the court upheld the right to seek damages, however, it rejected the civil conspiracy claim due to prudential standing that bars "adjudication of generalized grievances" that are common to all citizens and therefore more "appropriately addressed in the representative branches."

Civil conspiracy was also alleged by a community of about 400 Alaskan villagers who are being forced from homes by climate-related changes in the Arctic Ocean.

Similar to the Comer case, the inhabitants of Kivalina sued oil and energy companies for damages based on a nuisance claim for defendants' excessive greenhouse gas emissions that caused climate change impacts harmful to the village.

Global warming has now diminished the Arctic sea ice that functioned as a barrier, exposing Kivalina to coastal storm waves and surges that have eroded the village into an uninhabitable state requiring relocation at a cost between $95 million and $400 million, government studies estimate.

The gravamen of the complaint in Native Village of Kivalina v. ExxonMobil is supported by a Government Accountability Office report that cited studies indicating that rising temperatures are partially responsible for flooding and erosion impacting coastal villages. Rising temperatures have also "affected the thickness, extent and duration of sea ice" that protected coastal villages from waves, storm surges and erosion, the report states.

The Kivalina complaint alleges that oil and energy companies used front groups to mislead the public about climate change science. It discusses how the energy companies "formed and used front groups, fake citizens organizations, and bogus scientific bodies" to publish disinformation on global warming, "prop up discredited studies" to deny the scientific consensus and downplay the severity of global climate change.

The federal district court dismissed the Kivalina case based on the defendants' argument that it involved a political question properly dealt with by the legislative or executive branches. The case has been appealed to the Ninth Circuit.

Even if the climate change conspiracy actions do not survive the legal system, there may be benefits from climate change litigation.

Legal theories used in the U.S. can be catalysts for activists around the world to use similar legal theories to hold corporations responsible for climate change impacts. Damage claims and settlements can be more costly than changing the nature of the industry.

See also:

Lawyers Advising Clients to Prepare for Economy-Wide GHG Regulation

Lawsuit Contends Oil Shale Drilling Has Impact on Climate Change

Alaska's Soon-To-Be Climate Refugees Sue Energy Companies for Relocation

Public Citizen Sues Texas Over Greenhouse Gases

Chamber of Commerce: Nixon to China Moment or 'Scopes Monkey Trial'?

Environmental Refugees and the Definitions of Justice

[RickBradford]

Yes, all the same old tired links.

This is what the global warming scam is all about -- repeat a lie long enough and loud enough and people will start to believe it.

Here's a new graph:

Earth's temperature in blue; solar activity in red.

From the Danish Meteorological Institute, Solar-Terrestrial Physics Division.

This link has been known for 20 years or so, but the global warming hysteria has all but sidelined it.

So it is of no consequence to the planet that 140 private jets, 1200 limousines, that globulous fraud Al Gore, Desmond Tutu and Daryl Hannah are winging in to join 5,000 journalists in Copenhagen for the biggest freebie of the century, because CO² has no effect on temperature.

The religion of man-made global warming: a sham, a scam, a fraud, a swindle, a crock of s**t and a disgrace.

Edited December 7, 2009 by RickBradford

[JR Texas]

Actually, there were a lot of new links to the "non-existent" lawsuits against the BOLs, BIG OIL/ENERGY MAFIA. Your comment that is it old news is simply an attempt to distract readers from the new information.

No matter how much you distort the truth, it will not change the facts: Global warming is real. Climate change is real.

Both are the result of a growing human population engaged in environmentally unsound economic activities--in particular, using fossil fuels to fuel the global economy and deforestation.

Your side has yet to post one piece of scientific information countering this scientific reality.

The CO2 data is there for you to see.

The temperature data is there for you to see.

The total heat content of the earth data is there for you to see.

Icebergs are melting in front of our eyes...........but you can't see.

I wonder if your name will be added to any future lawsuit brought against the BOLs.

http://solveclimate.com/blog/20091206/civi...-change-deniers

CENTRALIZED ENERGY = CONTINUED ECONOMIC SLAVERY AND DEPENDENCY ON BIG OIL, AS WELL AS ENVIRONMENTAL DESTRUCTION AND SOCIAL CHAOS

DECENTRALIZED ENERGY = FREEDOM AND THE EMPOWERMENT OF THE INDIVIDUAL

BIG OIL = THE FOSSIL FUEL ENERGY MAFIA

[RickBradford]

I wonder if your name will be added to any future lawsuit brought against the BOLs.

Now I'm really scared and my dog's hiding behind the sofa.

The CO2 data is there for you to see. The temperature data is there for you to see.

And many, many eminent scientists have repeatedly pointed out from exactly that data that it is a rise in temperature that later causes a rise in CO². not the other way around.

And these are real scientists, not Warmist cranks scribbling away in green ink from their spare bedrooms.

Warmists could see this if they looked; but their anti-science, anti-development dogma, coupled with their infantile narcissism, prevents them from being able to take real facts on board, for fear of collapsing their tender egos.

Instead, they dance around like children, with their hands over their ears, shouting "na-na-na-na-na" to block out the uncomfortable sounds of truth which would expose their religious belief in man-made global warming for the farrago of lies and agit-prop it is now known to be.

Edited December 7, 2009 by RickBradford

[Patong Bob]

If you get a chance, but this week's The Spectator, a serious English magazine which has well written expert views on this topic.

PS : the seas aren't rising.

[PhilHarries]

So it is of no consequence to the planet that 140 private jets, 1200 limousines, that globulous fraud Al Gore, Desmond Tutu and Daryl Hannah are winging in to join 5,000 journalists in Copenhagen for the biggest freebie of the century, because CO² has no effect on temperature.

The religion of man-made global warming: a sham, a scam, a fraud, a swindle, a crock of s**t and a disgrace.

You forgot that great guru of climate change, the world reknowned climatologist, future Nobel Laureate............................

Laaaadddddiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeessssss an Gennnnnnnlllllllllleeeemen...........................

Leonardo DiCaprio.

Who?

Copenhagen, another massive jolly, another giant talkshop, another waste of time and energy.

According to the organisers, the eleven-day conference, including the participants' travel, will create a total of 41,000 tonnes of "carbon dioxide equivalent", equal to the amount produced over the same period by a city the size of Middlesbrough.

Bluddy hypocrits the lot of them.

[Groongthep]

You really know you are sticking a knife in the BOLs when they post all of the smileys and cheesys......... I think I am hitting a nerve........sort of like doing a root canal on them.

I remind you that I put all the smilelys in my last post as a sarcastic response to YOUR posts which are full of them. I can't stand them myself and find them rather childish. You, JR, are the one who started all the smiley nonsense.

I do agree with the premise of your earlier post however that we, meaning the entire human race, need to start looking harder for a clean (or at least cleaner) substitute for fossil fuels which are polluting our planet. Regardless of whether fossil fuel emissions cause global warming or not it is painfully obvious to anyone who lives in Bangkok that such emissions if nothing else make our air filthy and unhealthy to breathe.

I object however to the notion that there is some sort of evil conspiracy by oil companies, the governments of developed nations or the business community in general to prevent efforts to find a new clean and affordable source of renewable energy. Comparing the ancient computer in your photograph to the blackberry is not in the least bit analogous to finding out how to produce clean energy from hydrogen or any other safe and abundant substance. I think that most scientists would agree that the latter is a much much harder task than building a hand held computer. If a company research department were able to discover such a world changing energy technology it would no doubt make them wealthy beyond belief so I'm sure if they thought they could do it they would. It seems apparent however, that they know the search would be extremely difficult and could go on for years without success and that the search would be fabulously expensive. Therefore it just doesn't make sense that any private entity would find it feasible to sink billions into a search that may lead nowhere and break them financially. That is why it should be the responsibility of governments to do the funding of the research. The countries meeting in Copenhagen this week should come to this conclusion and develop a fair price sharing agreement to pay for energy research. That we should saddle private (oil or other) companies with the burden is a ludicrous notion. They are simply businesses doing what businesses do. If they began sinking large sums into this research their shareholders would bail out in droves and they would go broke overnight. It is not their responsibility. It is the average human being no matter what country he or she may be from who has polluted our planet's air with fossil fuel emissions and it is that same average human who has paid the oil companies and other businesses handsomely to provide them with the fuel to burn to do the polluting. As I have said before, let's don't scapegoat and blame the ones who have only done what we have paid them to do. We the copious consumers are the ones to blame.

The time to start looking for this new clean source of energy should have went into high gear years ago but since it hasn't there is no time like the present to get started. We should all demand that our leaders start taking those steps now. If some at Copenhagen refuse to help that should not stop the others from forging ahead by themselves.

Common sense however tells us that finding a new clean renewable energy source isn't going to happen overnight and that the transition will most likely take many years. It has been suggested by many that we begin by moving away from the dirtiest fuels such as coal and oil first and replace them with cleaner affordable alternatives such as natural gas and nuclear power until the breakthrough technology can be found. Wind, geothermal and solar technologies could also be used in a larger scale once ways of harnessing those methods in a more practical and economical way are developed as well.

One thing that won't work or do any good however is to go running around calling the oil companies devils when they are but only one small player in the whole scenario. <deleted>(k the oil companies. They're not going to do anything but what they have always been doing. It's time WE get to work.

Edited December 7, 2009 by Groongthep

[JR Texas]

You continue to distort facts (guess you can't help it).

Under normal conditions (we have broken out of normal conditions) CO2 and temperature track each other closely.

The earth goes through natural warming periods (temperature and CO2 rise together in a complex feedback mechanism).

The earth goes through natural cooling periods (temperature and CO2 decrease in a complex feedback mechanism).

This is due, mainly, to a predictable shift in the orbital pattern of the earth around the sun.

For the past 800000 years CO2 level did not exceed 300 ppm.

It is only in recent history that CO2 level has gone over 300 ppm (the result of human activities......and not natural). And it continues to rise.

CO2 is a greenhouse gas..........it is causing warming. Like this:

Actually, it is a waste of time responding to your posts. You don't get it and never will.

CENTRALIZED ENERGY = CONTINUED ECONOMIC SLAVERY AND DEPENDENCY ON BIG OIL, AS WELL AS ENVIRONMENTAL DESTRUCTION AND SOCIAL CHAOS

DECENTRALIZED ENERGY = FREEDOM AND THE EMPOWERMENT OF THE INDIVIDUAL

BIG OIL = THE FOSSIL FUEL ENERGY MAFIA

[RickBradford]

Oh, that chart again. I could draw it in my sleep.

Here's how Warmists deal with people they don't like.

Michael Schlesinger of the University of Illinois regularly sends out warmist agit-prop to numerous journalists, who are expected to faithfully reproduce this dogma to the masses.

But naughty old Andrew C. Revkin of the New York Times hasn't been following the script of late, writing a joky aside about Copenhagen prostitutes offering free sex to delegates at the big climate jolly this week.

Schlesinger isn't having this dissent (my emphasis added):

Andy:

Copenhagen prostitutes?

Climate prostitutes?

Shame on you for this gutter reportage.

This is the second time this week I have written you thereon, the first about giving space in your blog to the Pielkes. [respected father-and-son climate scientists - RB]

The vibe that I am getting from here, there and everywhere is that your reportage is very worrisome to most climate scientists.

Of course, your blog is your blog.

But, I sense that you are about to experience the 'Big Cutoff' from those of us who believe we can no longer trust you, me included.

Copenhagen prostitutes?

Unbelievable and unacceptable.

What are you doing and why?

Michael

Naughty, naughty, Andy!

[JR Texas]

Your instincts are wrong..........the people who are worried are the BOLs and BIG OIL (ENERGY MAFIA).

Nothing has changed in terms of the scientific consensus.

Any person that wants to keep up with what is happening in Copenhagen can go here:

http://en.cop15.dk/?gclid=CIGQv8nRt54CFZAvpAodLGqwog

If you want to know more about the subject of global warming/climate change, visit these links. Virtually every point of discussion on this thread is addressed on these websites:

Links to research on on global warming and climate change, many with viewpoints of both BOLs --BIG OIL (Energy Mafia) LOBBYISTS/skeptics--and responsible scientists who are actually working on the climate change challenge:

http://www.realclimate.org/

http://ossfoundation.us/

http://www.skepticalscience.com/

http://greenfyre.wordpress.com/denier-vs-skeptic/

http://www.grist.org/article/series/skeptics/

http://www.whrc.org/resources/online_publi...ic_evidence.htm

http://co2now.org/index.php?option=com_content

Link to investigate the backgrounds of spokespersons on both sides:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=SourceWatch

Links to some lawsuits against BIG OIL/ENERGY MAFIA (lawsuits actually go back over ten years………there are lots of them and many more will be forthcoming)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008...s.climatechange (Hansen’s view about the Energy Mafia’s (BIG OIL’s) crimes against humanity)

http://solveclimate.com/blog/20091206/civi...-change-deniers (citizens taking the skeptics to court)

http://www.scienceprogress.org/2008/07/glo...rming-in-court/

(more legal action against BIG OIL/ENERGY MAFIA)

http://www.theenergylawblog.com/2009/08/ar...-valorem-taxes/ (still more legal action)

http://patagonia-under-siege.blogspot.com/...gainst-big.html (and still more)

The list goes on and on and on…with lots more to come…it is similar to what happened when the public finally came to terms with what the tobacco industry was doing…..but this time it is BIG OIL (ENERGY MAFIA) that will pay the price for its illegal activities/crimes against humanity.

Link exposing the destructive activities of ExxonMobile (an ENERGY MAFIA GIANT): s thttp://www.exxposeexxon.com/he world's largest private

CENTRALIZED ENERGY = CONTINUED ECONOMIC SLAVERY AND DEPENDENCY ON BIG OIL, AS WELL AS ENVIRONMENTAL DESTRUCTION AND SOCIAL CHAOS

DECENTRALIZED ENERGY = FREEDOM AND THE EMPOWERMENT OF THE INDIVIDUAL

BIG OIL = THE FOSSIL FUEL ENERGY MAFIA

[chuckd]

This should bring out the GW alarmists in great quantities. I can just see JR frothing at the mouth as he composes his next post. I wonder if it will be a new one?

________________________________________________________

DO SMOKING GUNS CAUSE GLOBAL WARMING, TOO?

by Ann Coulter

Posted 12/02/2009 ET

As we now know (and by "we" I mean "everyone with access to the Internet"), the University of East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit (CRU) has just been caught ferociously manipulating the data about the Earth's temperature.

Recently leaked e-mails from the "scientists" at CRU show that, when talking among themselves, they forthrightly admit to using a "trick" to "hide the decline" in the Earth's temperature since 1960 -- as one e-mail says. Still another describes their manipulation of the data thus: "[W]e can have a proper result, but only by including a load of garbage!"

Am I just crazy from the heat or were they trying to deceive us?

Global warming cheerleaders in the media were quick to defend the scandalous e-mails, explaining that, among scientists, the words "trick," "hide the decline" and "garbage" do not mean "trick," "hide the decline" and "garbage." These words actually mean "onion soup," "sexual submissive" and "Gary, Ind."

(Boy, it must be great to be able to redefine words right in the middle of a debate.)

Also, of course, the defenders said that the words needed to be placed "in context" -- the words' check was in the mail, and they'd like to spend more time with their families.

I have placed the words in context and it turns out what they mean is: gigantic academic fraud.

The leaked e-mail exchanges also show the vaunted "scientists" engaging in a possibly criminal effort to delete their own smoking-gun e-mails in response to a Freedom of Information request. Next, the fanatics will be telling us that "among scientists," this behavior does not indicate knowledge of guilt.

If I recall correctly, their next move should be to fire the special prosecutor late Saturday night.

These e-mails aren't a tempest in a teapot. They are evidence of pervasive fraud by a massively influential institution that has dominated news coverage of global warming.

CRU was regularly cited as the leading authority on "global climate analysis" -- including by the very news outlets that are burying the current scandal, such as The New York Times and The Washington Post. The CRU alone received more than $23 million in taxpayer funds for its work on global warming.

Having claimed to have collected the most complete data on the Earth's temperature for the last half century, the CRU's summary of that data was used by the United Nations' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change for its 2007 report demanding that we adopt a few modest lifestyle changes, such as abolishing modern technology, reverting to hunter/gatherer status and taxing ourselves into servitude.

But then last weekend -- in the middle of the "Let's Cook the Books!" e-mail scandal -- the CRU said that all its data on the Earth's temperature since 1960 had been irretrievably "lost." (Although I suspect "overcooked" might be a more apt term.)

The way this episode is unfolding, the environmentalists may be forced to drop their phantom threat of global warming and go back to the phantom threat of global cooling.

Most disturbingly, the CRU-affiliated "scientists" were caught red-handed conspiring to kill the careers and reputations of scientists who dissented from the religion of global warming. Indignant that scientific journals were publishing papers skeptical of global warming, the cult members plotted to get editors ousted and the publications discredited.

This sabotage of global warming dissenters may be more galling than their manipulation of the data. Until now, the global warming cult's sole argument has been to demand that everyone shut up in response to the "scientific consensus" that human activity was causing global warming.

That's their idea of a free and open debate.

It's always the same thing with primitive people -- voodoo practitioners, rain dancers and liberals. In lieu of facts, debate and a weighing of the evidence, religious fanatics respond to all counterarguments by invoking a higher authority: the witch doctor, a "scientific consensus," "the Constitution" or "historians are agreed."

Liberals won't tell us why Congress passed a law outlawing incandescent lightbulbs by 2014 -- a bill solemnly delivered to the president in a Prius hybrid (making it the slowest-moving bill in U.S. history). Instead, they tell us there's a "scientific consensus" that we have to use fluorescent lightbulbs or we'll all die.

They won't tell us why Ten Commandments monuments must be stripped from every public space in America. Instead, they tell us "the Constitution" says so (according to the high priests who interpret it to mean things the document doesn't remotely say).

They won't tell us what Sen. Joe McCarthy lied about. They say: Historians are agreed that McCarthy was a liar. (These are the same historians who also stated as fact that "few American Communists were spies" -- until decrypted Soviet cables proved that the Communist Party was awash with Soviet spies.)

This is precisely what liberals accuse Christians of doing, but which Christians never do. We don't cite the Bible as authority -- and then refuse to let anyone read it. We certainly don't claim to have "lost" it, so you can't check for yourself. But that's exactly what the CRU has done with its secret data allegedly showing a warming Earth.

Also, biblical data on the great flood and Noah's ark have held up remarkably well.

Even if the Earth were warming -- which apparently it is not -- the idea that humans using energy-efficient lightbulbs would alter the temperature of the globe is approximately as plausible as the Aztecs' belief that they were required to wrench the beating heart out of living, breathing humans in order to keep the sun on its path.

Sadly, the "human sacrifice deniers" lost the argument to Aztec CRU scientists, who explained that there was a "scientific consensus" on the benefits of ritual murder.

But at least the Aztecs only slaughtered tens of thousands of humans in the name of "climate change." The global warming cultists want us all dead.

Ann Coulter is Legal Affairs Correspondent for HUMAN EVENTS and author of "High Crimes and Misdemeanors," "Slander," ""How to Talk to a Liberal (If You Must)," "Godless," "If Democrats Had Any Brains, They'd Be Republicans" and most recently, Guilty: Liberal "Victims" and their Assault on America.

PS: No emoticons were injured in the printing of this post.

Edited December 7, 2009 by chuckd

[Groongthep]

I give up. We got one guy claiming there's a fossil fuel energy mafia and on the other end we have a guy quoting Ann Coulter, probably the most highly self-promoting right wing loonie nut case out there. This thread is now officially devoid of any middle ground or common sense. Mods might as well close it.

[PhilHarries]

JR, just admit it you warmists have your ar5e out the window with no pants on.

The secret of YADO61 is out.

This was startling enough, as McIntyre demonstrated in an explosive series of posts on his Climate Audit blog, because it showed that the CRU studies were based on cherry-picking hundreds of Siberian samples only to leave those that showed the picture that was wanted. Other studies based on similar data had clearly shown the Medieval Warm Period as hotter than today. Indeed only the evidence from one tree, YADO61, seemed to show a "hockey stick" pattern, and it was this, in light of the extraordinary reverence given to the CRU's studies, which led McIntyre to dub it "the most influential tree in the world".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columni...-the-world.html

But still the evidence to dispel the myth of global warming is being buried under instructions from your very own BIG GOVERNMENT.

Also:-

Ed Miliband, the [uK] Energy Secretary, has admitted that politicians face a "huge challenge" to convince people that action on global warming should be a priority since much of the evidence is invisible.

Surely it is the job of scientists to produce the evidence to support their case. I can just imagine a defence barrister saying to the jury "My client is of course innocent but the evidence to prove it is invisible". The judge would laugh that one out of court, he'd be helpless curled up on the floor behind the bench. He'd have to sit through Al Gore's movie six times just to stop laughing.

Oh, sorry I forgot that these scientists have a nasty habit of letting the truth out, something politicians are much more adept at avoiding.

[RickBradford]

To save everyone time, I enclose the do-it-yourself speech for the Copenhagen freebie, to ensure everyone stays on message.

Speech by (insert name of puffed-up narcissist politician)

Welcome, dear friends and wonderful, wonderful people from all over our planet. I welcome you all to this, the 15th Warmist Internationale, under the aegis of Our Dear Leader (huge photo of Globulous Al Gore appears on screen behind the stage).

We all listened with interest to the remarks of my dear and personal friend (insert name of second puffed-up narcissist politician) whom I agree with 100% and whom I think hit the nail on the head 100% when he said what he said, let me be quite clear about that.

And I want to thank our Danish hosts, my dear and personal friends, for their warm welcome. I hope it doesn't get any warmer, or the icecaps will start melting, ha, ha. (waits for laughter, whice fails to arrive).

(Adopts serious expression)

But I want to talk about something else. Something big. Something serious. Something that affects every man, woman, child and polar bear on the planet today. And their children, and their children's children. And their children's children's children.

Now, we must accept that nothing is free.

(Voice at the back: "Except the prostitutes!". There is a scuffle, and a figure is escorted out by Warmist Counsellors to be severely rehabilitated.)

No, there is a price for everything. I urge you to look at these figures. (turns and points to screen on which is displayed tired old graph borrowed from JR).

Now, I am no scientist, but you don't need me to tell you what it says. The figures are going up! Look over there on the right-hand side. And we all know what that means, don't we? (shuffles papers, looking for the answer). Let's think about that for a while, shall we?

(pause while all listen to "Kumbaya", the reggae version, sung by Sid Sargasso and the Doldrums)

Now, let's be perfectly clear about this. The figures of carbon dioxide, yes, that's it, are going up! And we have only (insert random number of years here) to stop this before this deadly gas kills us. Sea-level will rise (insert inflated number of metres here), temperatures will go up by (insert made-up Celsius figure in here), polar bears will die off all over the world and mosquitoes will take their place.

(shows stock photo of forlorn polar bear alongside magnified mosquito)

But friends, dear wonderful people from all over the planet, there is a solution. But only if we act quickly, now, today. We have seen how the scientists at CRU can adjust figures whenever they want. So, now, today, quickly, I urge all you scientists, to start adjusting those CO² figures downwards. It's the only way if you want your children's children to meet the children's children of the, er, polar bears all over the world!

Reducing CO² figures is a must, an imperative, something we owe to the world, and to all the dear, dear friends of mine who live in it.

Thankyou Denmark, thankyou dear friends, I love you all, and above all thanks to the Dear Leader who has brought us here today on his private jet!

(All rise as Sid Sargasso and the Doldrums break into "We Are The World", the samba version)

Edited December 7, 2009 by RickBradford

[JR Texas]

Interesting that the "hide the decline" small movie came out prior to the emails being stolen........very interesting.

And nobody is hiding any decline........the problem is the BOLs don't understand how to read simple up and down trends on a graph.

They also apparently don't understand this..........so I have to post it again (here is a small hint for you.........the temperature rise in the ocean matters):

That aside, this is what happens in the real world when the temperature is too hot for crops to grow:

Any sarcastic remarks? Smileys? Cheesys?

Glaciers are melting..........they provide water for crops.........after they melt the water will not be there.........no crops.........famine..........get it?

It is happening in two of the most populous countries on the planet: China and India. Both have nuclear weapons. Might this cause some serious problems in Asia?

We must act now!

Nothing has changed in terms of the scientific consensus.

Any person that wants to keep up with what is happening in Copenhagen can go here:

http://en.cop15.dk/?gclid=CIGQv8nRt54CFZAvpAodLGqwog

If you want to know more about the subject of global warming/climate change, visit these links. Virtually every point of discussion on this thread is addressed on these websites:

Links to research on on global warming and climate change, many with viewpoints of both BOLs --BIG OIL (Energy Mafia) LOBBYISTS/skeptics--and responsible scientists who are actually working on the climate change challenge:

http://www.realclimate.org/

http://ossfoundation.us/

http://www.skepticalscience.com/

http://greenfyre.wordpress.com/denier-vs-skeptic/

http://www.grist.org/article/series/skeptics/

http://www.whrc.org/resources/online_publi...ic_evidence.htm

http://co2now.org/index.php?option=com_content

Link to investigate the backgrounds of spokespersons on both sides:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=SourceWatch

Links to some lawsuits against BIG OIL/ENERGY MAFIA (lawsuits actually go back over ten years………there are lots of them and many more will be forthcoming)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008...s.climatechange (Hansen’s view about the Energy Mafia’s (BIG OIL’s) crimes against humanity)

http://solveclimate.com/blog/20091206/civi...-change-deniers (citizens taking the skeptics to court)

http://www.scienceprogress.org/2008/07/glo...rming-in-court/

(more legal action against BIG OIL/ENERGY MAFIA)

http://www.theenergylawblog.com/2009/08/ar...-valorem-taxes/ (still more legal action)

http://patagonia-under-siege.blogspot.com/...gainst-big.html (and still more)

The list goes on and on and on…with lots more to come…it is similar to what happened when the public finally came to terms with what the tobacco industry was doing…..but this time it is BIG OIL (ENERGY MAFIA) that will pay the price for its illegal activities/crimes against humanity.

Link exposing the destructive activities of ExxonMobile (an ENERGY MAFIA GIANT): s thttp://www.exxposeexxon.com/he world's largest private

CENTRALIZED ENERGY = CONTINUED ECONOMIC SLAVERY AND DEPENDENCY ON BIG OIL, AS WELL AS ENVIRONMENTAL DESTRUCTION AND SOCIAL CHAOS

DECENTRALIZED ENERGY = FREEDOM AND THE EMPOWERMENT OF THE INDIVIDUAL

BIG OIL = THE FOSSIL FUEL ENERGY MAFIA

famine.bmp

[RickBradford]

Globulous Al's mailbox in Copenhagen is filling up.....

Dear Al Gore,

I have been thinking about what you said about the polar bears and I am very worried about my emissions.

Now I know that CO² is a very big pollutant, because you said so, and so I worry about my car. Do you have a car, Al?

If I could cut down my emissions, would it help the polar bears? I have a plan to make my car more 'green', but then I hear that animals are dangerous as well because they emit CO² as well, even polar bears.

So, I would like your advice about my car. I enclose a photo of my first effort (that's me driving!!) and wonder if you think this will help the polar bears?

Yrs,

Tom Rackley.

By the way, I think it is despicable to show a picture of a starving African child to try and make some spurious point about global warming.

You display the true insensitivity and mean-spirited attitude of so many in the global warming cult.

Edited December 7, 2009 by RickBradford

[RickBradford]

@JR

Interesting that the "hide the decline" small movie came out prior to the emails being stolen........very interesting.

And completely wrong, again.

The first mention of the leaked e-mails is here, on Nov. 19.

The video was posted to YouTube on Nov 24.

Are you:

1) mistaken in the usual dim-bulb climate crank way?

2) trying to fudge the data to shore up your busted global warming dogma?

3) knowingly lying?

If answering that is too hard, don't bother to reply, just post your busted old graph for the 10th time and add in a completely unrelated photo of a starving African child.

[mojaco]

The GW agenda is just the latest ploy in the enviro-"greening" movement to shut down industry in the USA. They got nuclear stopped which is the ONLY feasible energy source sufficient to keep our modern lifestyle. All the others (wind, thermal, waves, etc.) simply do not have the potential to replace coal, oil, gas. Which is wonderful news to the enviros as they :green" the USA. Even now the USA has almost no significant industry left to survive significant boycots of materials coming into the USA. Very foolish of our government.

At some point JR will be thrilled to be able to experience the "green life" without energy supplies for himself if he lives in the USA. Or perhaps he will choose to live in one of these countries like Thailand who are not so foolish as to follow a "greening" or "CO2-reduction agenda".

The only alternatives are

1) lower lifestyles

2) fewer people

3) fossel fuels

4) nuclear

1) is a given the way the enviro-crazy agenda is progressing. SAD. But at my age it doesn't much matter.

[PhilHarries]

I give up. We got one guy claiming there's a fossil fuel energy mafia and on the other end we have a guy quoting Ann Coulter, probably the most highly self-promoting right wing loonie nut case out there. This thread is now officially devoid of any middle ground or common sense. Mods might as well close it.

I disagree, we have one guy who has only one string to his fiddle and that's so out of tune it's lost all sense and on the other we have folks pointing out:-

1. Despite what the warmists claim there is absolutely no consensus in what the scientific community is saying about the causes behind the effects we are seeing.

and,

2. The scientists behind the warmists claims have been caught most comprehensively fiddling the figures (something our man with the one string fiddle ignores).

Until 2 is addressed and the correct data presented without bias we are on the verge of lashing out trillions on dodgy data, not only that but we are looking at virtually halting human development for the foreseeable future. Given that, if what they say is true and it is down to human activities, it has taken since the industrial revolution to get to this stage you would think any prudent person would recheck the data, rerun the predictions and achieve a real concensus before proceeding.

But no, now the politicians have got involved we have some pretty BIG EGOS (to borrow from JR) that are dam_ned if they are going to back down. But these people work with scaremongering and lots of smoke and mirrors. Just like the Y2K bug people they don't, can't, say what will happen but they can peer into their teacups and say well if we do nothing the world as we know it might come to an end. Then on top of that we have all the greens screaming that the sky is falling and we should all live in caves and eat tofu just as they are always bleating on.

It's time we cut the BIG EGOS out of the debate and had a free and open discussion and a new study of the data. What we do not need is the likes of Gordon Brown calling GW sceptics "Flat Earthers", that is pathetic, purile and an insult to science.

[Spee]

I would enourage everyone to buy a copy of Mark Levine's million-selling work of excellence, "Liberty and Tyranny," (ISBN: 1-4165-6285-0) and read then re-read Chapter 8, entitled "Enviro-Statism." In 32 short pages, "The Great One" completely disects the enviro-wacko and man-made global warming/climate change hypocrisies.

For me, one of the most telling examples is a 2008 quote on page 136, excerpted from an Australian magazine article, from an Australian geophysicist who became a NASA astronaut. He said:

"All four agencies that track the Earth's temperature - the Hadley Climate Research Unit in Britain, the NASA Goddard Institute for SPace Studies in New York, the Christy group at the University of Alabama, and Remote Sensing Systems Inc. in California - report that it cooled by about 0.7C in 2007. This is the fastest temperature change in the instrumental record and it puts us back where we were in 1930. If the temperature does not soon recover, we will have to conclude that global warming is over."

In other words, all the wacko claims, unethical and inaccurate models, corrupted peer review processes, and inter-breeding between political agendas and scientific processes, cannot erase the basic facts of GIGO (garbage in, garbage out).

Thailand may sink, or sea levels may rise, but neither will have a darn thing to do with global warming and certainly nothing to do with the presence of men (or lack thereof).

[JR Texas]

You guys really are getting desperate..........good!

Civil Conspiracy Lawsuits Filed Against Climate Change Deniers

http://solveclimate.com/blog/20091206/civi...-change-deniers

Links to research on on global warming and climate change, many with viewpoints of both BOLs --BIG OIL (Energy Mafia) LOBBYISTS/skeptics--and responsible scientists who are actually working on the climate change challenge:

http://www.realclimate.org/

http://ossfoundation.us/

http://www.skepticalscience.com/

http://greenfyre.wordpress.com/denier-vs-skeptic/

http://www.grist.org/article/series/skeptics/

http://www.whrc.org/resources/online_publi...ic_evidence.htm

http://co2now.org/index.php?option=com_content

Link to investigate the backgrounds of spokespersons on both sides:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=SourceWatch

Links to some lawsuits against BIG OIL/ENERGY MAFIA (lawsuits actually go back over ten years………there are lots of them and many more will be forthcoming)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008...s.climatechange (Hansen’s view about the Energy Mafia’s (BIG OIL’s) crimes against humanity)

http://solveclimate.com/blog/20091206/civi...-change-deniers (citizens taking the skeptics to court)

http://www.scienceprogress.org/2008/07/glo...rming-in-court/

(more legal action against BIG OIL/ENERGY MAFIA)

http://www.theenergylawblog.com/2009/08/ar...-valorem-taxes/ (still more legal action)

http://patagonia-under-siege.blogspot.com/...gainst-big.html (and still more)

The list goes on and on and on…with lots more to come…it is similar to what happened when the public finally came to terms with what the tobacco industry was doing…..but this time it is BIG OIL (ENERGY MAFIA) that will pay the price for its illegal activities/crimes against humanity.

Link exposing the destructive activities of ExxonMobile (an ENERGY MAFIA GIANT): http://www.exxposeexxon.com

What is causing this?

What relationship does that have to this (in the future)?

Why are we still using a Stone Age Fossil Fuel Energy platform like this?

BIG OIL (ENERGY MAFIA) wants us dependent on their environmentally unsound, centralized energy platform for the next 100 years (actually, forever). The last thing they want is for us to demand a decentralized energy platform.

CENTRALIZED ENERGY = CONTINUED ECONOMIC SLAVERY AND DEPENDENCY ON BIG OIL, AS WELL AS ENVIRONMENTAL DESTRUCTION AND SOCIAL CHAOS

DECENTRALIZED ENERGY = FREEDOM AND THE EMPOWERMENT OF THE INDIVIDUAL

BIG OIL = THE FOSSIL FUEL ENERGY MAFIA