Recognition For 'third Sex'

[jasreeve17]

You gay mods are so farkin boring...

Can you understand that we like you! And we are accepting of all folk!

But, a third gender. Go away. It's stupid. You are men, that like men, and appreciate men that are women and others too. OK, us too.

But they're two sexes; men and women.

Do not try to complicate things, or make it political. Deal with it.

[endure]

Lots of gay, feminine Thai men are femme without being so extreme, and lots more gay Thai men (like my partner) are almost indistinguishable from the straight Thai man, in public.

And you told me in the other thread that you were a father of six children. So was it you or your partner who gave birth to those kids? (Guess my speculation to the reason why you have to stay in Thailand in stead of going back to the US, "land of the free", was correct after all. By the way, I'm not saying or implying that there's anything wrong with that. I just really understand it now that not everyone is staying in Thailand because they love the country. Some just got stuck and aren't really welcome back at home.) Sorry for going off topic.

Your speculations are unwelcome. It might be an idea to acquaint yourself with PB's situation before making snide remarks about him. Your insults are becoming tedious. You'd be well advised to be a little more civil in future.

[jasreeve17]

Lots of gay, feminine Thai men are femme without being so extreme, and lots more gay Thai men (like my partner) are almost indistinguishable from the straight Thai man, in public.

And you told me in the other thread that you were a father of six children. So was it you or your partner who gave birth to those kids? (Guess my speculation to the reason why you have to stay in Thailand in stead of going back to the US, "land of the free", was correct after all. By the way, I'm not saying or implying that there's anything wrong with that. I just really understand it now that not everyone is staying in Thailand because they love the country. Some just got stuck and aren't really welcome back at home.) Sorry for going off topic.

Your speculations are unwelcome. It might be an idea to acquaint yourself with PB's situation before making snide remarks about him. Your insults are becoming tedious. You'd be well advised to be a little more civil in future.

Is this a little empowered group supporting each other againnnnnnn.

Thaigoon gave his opinion. Every member does that. Leave him alone - bully.

(I say that as a poster to a poster!)

[LaoPo]

Lots of gay, feminine Thai men are femme without being so extreme, and lots more gay Thai men (like my partner) are almost indistinguishable from the straight Thai man, in public.

And you told me in the other thread that you were a father of six children. So was it you or your partner who gave birth to those kids? (Guess my speculation to the reason why you have to stay in Thailand in stead of going back to the US, "land of the free", was correct after all. By the way, I'm not saying or implying that there's anything wrong with that. I just really understand it now that not everyone is staying in Thailand because they love the country. Some just got stuck and aren't really welcome back at home.) Sorry for going off topic.

Your speculations are unwelcome. It might be an idea to acquaint yourself with PB's situation before making snide remarks about him. Your insults are becoming tedious. You'd be well advised to be a little more civil in future.

Is this a little empowered group supporting each other againnnnnnn.

Thaigoon gave his opinion. Every member does that. Leave him alone - bully.

(I say that as a poster to a poster!)

I fully support Endure's comment.

Thaigoon's post was way out of line and he's interfering in someone's private life and suggesting that PeaceBlondie is not welcome in his homecountry because he's gay and therefore 'forced' to stay in Thailand.

Whether PeaceBlondie has children or not is absolutely of no importance to Thaigoon's comment and none of his business either.

Thaigoon's post is not just a silly statement but quite nasty as well; it's even a personal attack (from a Thai=Thaigoon)) on someone (a Farang) who decided to live in Thailand for reasons we don't know and he certainly should NOT judge about that just because of PB's personal preference on sexuality in combination with PB's decision on where to live or not!

And that, Sir, is my opinion.

LaoPo

Edited April 24, 2007 by LaoPo

[bkkrox]

You gay mods are so farkin boring...

Can you understand that we like you! And we are accepting of all folk!

But, a third gender. Go away. It's stupid. You are men, that like men, and appreciate men that are women and others too. OK, us too.

But they're two sexes; men and women.

Do not try to complicate things, or make it political. Deal with it.

I think there is alot you are missing in interpretation of 'third sex'. It is a blanket term used to describe men who are living there lives as women (albeit at differing degrees pre-operation,post operation etc).I dont think anyone is seriously arguing that at a dna level there is a 'third sex'.

But for the point of whether people in this group should have constitutional protection,they absolutely should and anybody that argues they should not is pure and simple a bigot.

Really cannot understand why someone would argue against minority rights. If someone chooses to live thier life a certain way,and is not harmful in any way to others,then really what gives anyone the right to discriminate against them? Seems to me the only people who can think of an argument to support their bigotry are those that have never suffered legalised discrimination and so cannot understand the importance of constitutional protection.

[Ijustwannateach]

Thaigoon, I've warned you both about flaming and about this garbage obsession you have with deciding who is and who is not welcome in Thailand. You're taking a little holiday now.

[OlRedEyes]

Recognition for 'third sex'

Nathee Thirarojanapong, president of the Thai Political Gay Group, said the clause guaranteeing equal rights for men and women should also include the phrase "and people with other sexual conditions and preferences".

--TNA 2007-04-24

Why not simply phrase it as 'equal rights for all' and be done with it???

Seems simple enough?

[cdnvic]

Why not simply phrase it as 'equal rights for all' and be done with it???

Seems simple enough?

I think "All Persons" is specific enough.

[farang prince]

Recognition for 'third sex'

Nathee Thirarojanapong, president of the Thai Political Gay Group, said the clause guaranteeing equal rights for men and women should also include the phrase "and people with other sexual conditions and preferences".

--TNA 2007-04-24

Why not simply phrase it as 'equal rights for all' and be done with it???

Seems simple enough?

Works for me. Takes all the political agendas out of the equation. Now let's see if something like that could pass.

[OlRedEyes]

Why not simply phrase it as 'equal rights for all' and be done with it???

Seems simple enough?

I think "All Persons" is specific enough.

What about Natural Persons vs Legal Persons... Gawd I'm glad I never became a lawyer....

Then lately, there are Virtual Persons....

And Vegetative Persons....

[taxexile]

could this be the answer ?

[bina]

but I certainly know about biology. And what I know is that there's 2 sexes on this planet for all species, female and male.

i guess u forgot about snails and other non vertabrae and some fish that are hermaphrodites and can breed themselves (well, its not really breeding but too technical for here)...

and as for separating toilets etc:

way back when... when my ex was raised in the great kibbutz experiment of children living eating and sleeping together in a childrens house, by the age of puberty, the girls and the boys automatically separated themselves when they used the showers (no stalls) and toilets. they were raised to do everything together includng showers etc but somehow, and w/o exposure to 'american' western sensibitlites (they had no televisions, didnt see movies, werent exposed to 'bourgois (sp.) prejudice' ) they sort of naturally separated themselves out.... so dont think that would work; i hate unisex bathrooms when there are lots of stalls... and then again, do gay men remember to put the toilet seat back down afterwards??? ) or is that striclty hetero?

i think its the change on the id cards etc that is important: afterall, a passport doesnt id your genetic makeup, just your name, day of birth and what country/nationality u belong to ... who cares if u are genetically male or female. for that there are chromosomes. so if u consider yourself female, 'act' female, id yourself as female, then u are pretty female except for making babies.

Edited April 25, 2007 by bina

[buriramboy]

i don't know what all the fuss is about, in the uk we have had a third sex for years, they are known as 'geezer birds'.

BB

[PeaceBlondie]

Was it farang prince who pointed out that Thai culture has had something like a third sex (or whatever Steveomarignio called it) for ages? We're not only discussing this in English, but most of us are wearing our farang-culture hats trying to discuss how the Thais should write their constitution.

Thaigoon, I didn't make my boyfriend pregnant! My wife and I experienced penile-vaginal penetration followed by ejaculation and fertilization. Need I explain further? And I'm welcome back in the USA, with a BA and a TEFL, to earn about the same hourly wage as I can get here for teaching EFL or ESL. Thaigoon, I love Thailand, and Thais! Do you love farang? One big reason I like Thailand better than my home country is that you folks (well, almost all of you Thais) tolerate sexual preferences far better than some of the cowboys in Texas . Okay, everybody, big group hug.

[farang prince]

Why not simply phrase it as 'equal rights for all' and be done with it???

Seems simple enough?

I think "All Persons" is specific enough.

It really doesn't matter what us farangs have to say about the matter. The Thais will decide for themselves. And frankly with the current administration, I wouldn't expect any remarkable legislation to protect the rights of all...in fact, a dime will get you a donut, there will be a continued eroding of rights for everyone...straight and gay...over the next year.

[MarkBKK]

Rainman, you don't know Thai history. The "third sex" has been recognized in Thailand for well over a century.

First of all, I may not know as much about Thai history, but I certainly know about biology. And what I know is that there's 2 sexes on this planet for all species, female and male. This has nothing to do with sexual preferences (being gay, lesbian, etc.), which I fully respect. If you love someone of a different sex, fine with me. If you love someone of the same sex, fine with me too.

What I don't understand is why there's a need to create a "third sex". We have female and male, what do we need? Calling a transsexual a "third sex" instead of a female will most certainly offend them. Calling a gay man a "third sex" instead of a man will most certainly also offend them. And are you going to call a lesbian woman a "third sex" instead of a woman?

See my point? What do we need a "third sex" for?

''We'' don't. As a couple of posters have tried to explain (very well, and very patiently I thought), there is a de facto ''third sex'' in Thailand. It may not be biologically correct, but then it isn't meant to be.

It seems that every time certain topics are discussed there's an almighty ''No, that's simply wrong!'' from some posters (e.g. ''And what I know is that there's 2 sexes on this planet for all species, female and male.'') Yes, drop something in Thailand and it will still fall to the ground, and the sun will still rise every morning, but for some things you just have to accept that you're not at home any more. (As ''A Very Peculiar Practice'' put it so well, ''altered priorities ahead''.) Or as PB said, ''We're not only discussing this in English, but most of us are wearing our farang-culture hats ...''

''What I don't understand is why there's a need to create a "third sex".'' Maybe there isn't a need in farang land. It's just the way things are here.

[cdnvic]

in fact, a dime will get you a donut

So there is a special clause for Canadians.

Excellent.

[rainman]

''We'' don't. As a couple of posters have tried to explain (very well, and very patiently I thought), there is a de facto ''third sex'' in Thailand. It may not be biologically correct, but then it isn't meant to be.

It seems that every time certain topics are discussed there's an almighty ''No, that's simply wrong!'' from some posters (e.g. ''And what I know is that there's 2 sexes on this planet for all species, female and male.'')

I'm not saying its wrong or right, I'm simply asking "is it needed?". And is it? Why can't the constitution contain "all the people" or "all citizens" instead of "women, men and other sexes"? The way you're putting it is lesbians are not women and gays are not men.

[Eman]

Recognition for 'third sex'

BANGKOK: -- Homosexual rights groups are calling for official recognition of the so-called "third sex" in the new constitution.

Nathee Thirarojanapong, president of the Thai Political Gay Group, said the clause guaranteeing equal rights for men and women should also include the phrase "and people with other sexual conditions and preferences".

The so-called "third sex" includes gays, lesbians, transvestites and cross-dressers.

"This would genuinely guarantee the rights of all people," said Nathee, who said gay groups were optimistic about the charter.

--TNA 2007-04-24

Perhaps the constitution could simply say "equal rights for all people" and leave it at that...

[steveromagnino]

I'm not saying its wrong or right, I'm simply asking "is it needed?". And is it? Why can't the constitution contain "all the people" or "all citizens" instead of "women, men and other sexes"? The way you're putting it is lesbians are not women and gays are not men.

ask awayyyyyy my autistic savant colleague, hope things are going well in Cincinnati.

I can only comment on the transexual issue; the others are less important and I don't think should be relevant to the conversation - toms, dtees and so on.

IMHO the answer would be very obvious already for any one with the ability to speak Thai beyond the level of an absolute beginner that there are already pretty much 3 non-biological genders within the confines of the language; not just in name but also to some degree in the way the language is spoken. For anyone with any friends or dealings with this so called 'woman on the second type' there would clearly some issues specifically to do with:

- changing gender on a Thai ID card to be EITHER a 3rd pseudo non biological gender OR at a woman, but not to have someone with a vagina, large silicon boobs, long hair, a high voice and no adams apple marked down as a man for life especially given that anyone that goes to the effort of the above probably has no desire to have it reminded everytime they take out their ID that they are in fact a man forever and ever despite all efforts to change - and yes, obviously I realise that nothing has changed technically at a DNA level; we can go down that road and it will lead us nowhere because it ignores that just because they have the DNA of a man, they don't wish to live their lives as one.

- addressing the military requirement for service which ONLY applies to men (if you want to talk about conscription that is entirely another subject) and currently requires that they are not required to serve on the basis of mental illness because it is felt that they would be unsuited to serving their country and are unofficially treated as women but in legal terms must be treated as man currently

- the FACT that some people, both male and female, do not wish to share bathroom facilities with someone who has the DNA (and possibly in cases the paraphenalia of a man) yet may also share the desire to become a woman and may even have some of the elements of a woman (hormones, breasts, desire to see men's krum etc)

I don't see it as a constitutional issue per se, but it certainly does need to be addressed in specific cases and for that to occur, it would require official recognition that there is a subgroup of gender called the sao bprapaet sorng or whatever.

In the same way, groups with special needs such as handicapped, mentally challenged, people of special faiths, monks, blind, minors etc get called out - if I understand your logic correctly, you would conclude that all these groups should be grouped into all citizens and thus not granted special rights, because they are indeed just people the same as the rest of us.

Yeah, all citizens should get access to hardcore porn on the basis that we desire and require freedom of speech, even my 13 year old cousin. Well, I know he'll be happy :-) He can also get straight to work, given that since he is a 'citizen' he should work like the rest of us. Work, porn and strippers. That's the ticket :-)

[AlexLah]

Hi Steve,

I am a bit confused on how you actually think about Transsexuals, Transgendered, 2nd type lady.

Anyway, I can see you accept transgendered people that is, people that had the full surgery and such, do you accept and recognise them as being the gender they feel and (many times) look they are?

I see that you are aware of the frustration they must go through when they need to show their ID and get reminded all the time that in fact they are not (legally) what they feel they are.

Again, I am only talking about TG people that did have the full operation and all other things needed.

As you know (Thai) TG people with full op do not have the possibility here to change their gender at least in their ID card.

But they can change their first name , at least that is a start...

You are mentioning that Thais have their way to adress such (TG) people by calling them: 2nd type lady in case of M to F.

So would it be possible that Thai people call TG people 2nd type because they just do not have a word to describe this as changing gender is not possible in Thailand?

Yep because Kathoey ( however you spell it) means: Gay, am I right?

When following you you tell there should be something official that determinates if a guy had undergone surgery to become a girl, that at least that person should be tagged as a third gender?

Why Steve?

Why Steve, would it be not discriminating?

Imagine that you went through all of this, would you be happy being called a third gender?

Steve in all of countries that accept TG and allow them to change their gender on legal documents the only document they cannot change is their birth certificate.

So I say no to third sex BS, people that go through painfull operations to become the gender they feel they are should be allowed to be that legally.

Alex

Edited April 25, 2007 by AlexLah

[MarkBKK]

''We'' don't. As a couple of posters have tried to explain (very well, and very patiently I thought), there is a de facto ''third sex'' in Thailand. It may not be biologically correct, but then it isn't meant to be.

It seems that every time certain topics are discussed there's an almighty ''No, that's simply wrong!'' from some posters (e.g. ''And what I know is that there's 2 sexes on this planet for all species, female and male.'')

I'm not saying its wrong or right, I'm simply asking "is it needed?". And is it? Why can't the constitution contain "all the people" or "all citizens" instead of "women, men and other sexes"? The way you're putting it is lesbians are not women and gays are not men.

I'm very sorry you got that impression from my post. I've re-read it and can't see how you think that, but then I'm quite simple.

So be it. We are obviously coming from different directions, and going different ways. Fairy 'nuff. But it really isn't as clear cut as you seem to think.

The point is, it is an issue here (military service, etc.) and it is part of Thai culture (however much the Thais ''accept'' it or dislike it, or not). You may not like the phrase ''third sex'', but here it's just a ''normal'' part of life.

And if, as steveromagnino hinted, you are from Cincinnati, can I just say that ''Cincinnati Fatback'' came on my MP3 player on the way to work this morning. Great song!

PS Re steveromagnino's comment to you (''In the same way, groups with special needs such as handicapped, mentally challenged, people of special faiths, monks, blind, minors etc get called out - if I understand your logic correctly, you would conclude that all these groups should be grouped into all citizens and thus not granted special rights, because they are indeed just people the same as the rest of us.'') I suppose this might be summed up as ''From each, according to their abilities, to each, according to their needs''. If only ... in an ideal world ...

[farang prince]

in fact, a dime will get you a donut

So there is a special clause for Canadians.

Excellent.

Hehehe. Yes, the Canadian comes out of me at the most peculiar moments. Actually I split my time between Bangkok and the southwest USA now, but lived for a long time in Vancouver. If my arthritis and old war wounds didn't bark at me when I'm in cool, wet weather for too long, I'd still be a BC'er.

[rainman]

Exactly what I've been trying to say for the last 3 pages ...why is there a need for a 3rd gender? I'm sure a man who wants to live their life as a woman would want to be called a "woman", not a "3rd gender".

[MarkBKK]

Exactly what I've been trying to say for the last 3 pages ...why is there a need for a 3rd gender? I'm sure a man who wants to live their life as a woman would want to be called a "woman", not a "3rd gender".

Why do men have nipples?

What you really want to do is visit every person in Thailand and say (in Thai) ''You're wrong you know. There's no need for something called a 'third sex'. I know it's part of your culture but it shouldn't be. I want you to put all notions of this silly 'third sex' idea thingy out of your mind. And while you're at it you can forget all these other silly things that are part of your culture like [please insert anything you don't see the point of, however much a part of Thailand they are].''

[ColPyat]

There are two sexes and some that try to make them look like the other - for whatever reason. That part I will not debate.

Well, then i would advise you to read up a little on the subject and educate yourself. There are certain conditions which are grouped together under the term "intersex" - and there things become very complicated, such as conditions which do make it impossible to define gender so clearly into the two sexes, be they genetic or hormonal.

And we are not even going into the very complicated issues of gender identification and orientation.

Here a link for further education, googling the term "intersex" is also rather interesting:

http://www.isna.org/

[Flysiam]

There are two sexes and some that try to make them look like the other - for whatever reason. That part I will not debate.

Well, then i would advise you to read up a little on the subject and educate yourself. There are certain conditions which are grouped together under the term "intersex" - and there things become very complicated, such as conditions which do make it impossible to define gender so clearly into the two sexes, be they genetic or hormonal.

And we are not even going into the very complicated issues of gender identification and orientation.

Here a link for further education, googling the term "intersex" is also rather interesting:

http://www.isna.org/

Give me a break - and give it a rest! You are REALLY stretching now to argue with me.

[ColPyat]

Give me a break - and give it a rest! You are REALLY stretching now to argue with me.

Actually, i am not arguing with you, i just try to educate you that your antiquated gender views are in some rare cases not accurate, and that therefore your statement, that there are only two genders, is false.

You may or may not decide to debate the issue, but expect counter arguments when you present statements based solely on your opinion.

To make it short, just read through the link i presented. You might learn something.

[rainman]

My ladyboy and I went to Canada in order to get our civil union officially sanctioned. I did this as a sign of commitment and for the legal protection that she can have in the future.

I'm not sure you understand my point, so I'm going back to this post of yours. My point is, do you want your ladyboy to be called a "woman" or a "third sex"? Wouldn't it be smarter to fight for the right to be called a woman instead of fighting for the right to be called a third sex? That's what I've been trying to say for the whole thread, but I'm starting to think you don't really read/understand what I'm writing or you just enjoy bashing. There's no need for a "third sex", you should be either woman or man, no matter what you were before.

Please ask your ladyboy if she prefers to be called a woman or a third sex. If you have the courage to ask her that question. Because from your responses, it seems clear to me that you're fighting more for her right to be called a "third sex" rather than a woman.

[AlexLah]

Yo Rainman,

Don't be so hard on Farang Prince na.

He is fighting for the 'third sex' so he does not have to think he is gay ore not.

I guess he is strugling with that feeling now.