Seven people missing after Koh Samui ferry capsizes

[Mavrix]

Thais and water...such a bad mix.   

 

RIP to the poor souls that lost their lives. 

[khunPer]

URGENT: All ferries between the islands Phangan, Samui, and Tao, and to the mainland have been stopped from today, August 2nd for three days, including till August 4th, by decree from the Governor of Surat Thani.

[Speedhump]

7 hours ago, PFMills said:

I’ve done that Crossing in bad weather. It’s true people do actually go green... For the return journey I didn’t have any breakfast, I was really glad I didn’t...

Any ferry is the same. Hua Hin to Pattaya hadms people chucking up all the way when the sea is choppy. 

[SiSePuede419]

9 hours ago, ThailandRyan said:

Why would a ferry run at the time of night

???????????? Greed, Arrogance, etc.

[khunPer]

1 hour ago, khunPer said:

URGENT: All ferries between the islands Phangan, Samui, and Tao, and to the mainland have been stopped from today, August 2nd for three days, including till August 4th, by decree from the Governor of Surat Thani.

It has been mentioned that the stop of ferry traffic is only between 5 pm and 5 am, please check with the ferry-line if you need to cross.

[khunkarl]

4 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

I don't believe how naive this comment is - you realise this is THAILAND we are talking about???

As explained, as it should be but here are things not as they should be. Read the entire comment again if you don't understand.

[khunkarl]

4 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

No! Extremely unlikely.

 

although Raja 4 if that was the boat is quite small a fewwtrucks would not overload it. 

What invariably happens is water gets onto te cargo deck - tis this and the load slurps around th boat is flipped. This can be incredibly quick too.

 

As for setting off, rthat is a different matter - virtually EVERY Ro-RO ferry in Thailand is suitable to sail on only flat seas - any strong swell or chop is potentially lethal for these vessels.

My guess is that because it was a "trade only" crossing the skipper or someone decided to push the envelope a little as there were no tourists to get frightened or sick.

 

Overloaded, poor stability, free liquid surfaces it doesn't really matter, the ship should never have left port as it was not seaworthy the weather, if seaworthy at all! An example of poor seamanship and a reminder how quickly things can go badly wrong at sea. Estonia sunk in the Baltic sea 1994 because the captain's priority was the time schedule and not the safety of ship and passengers. The other passenger ferries did 4 knots that night when Estonia did 15 knots. Because of that captain's poor judgement 852 people lost their lives that night.

[keystonecoppers2]

 

 

                      Please keep in mind, this kind of accidents happens all over

                      the world.

                      The capsize of a passenger ship very close to land in Italy,

                      "Concordia" something, where the Captain fleed the ship like

                      a rat, and sure, he was a rat! The passenger ship in S. Korea,

                      with another rat Captain fleeing, to save HIS life, and leaving

                      school shildren to die (I have pictures of that one, after salvation

                      of the ship, lying on a pier in a harbour where my ship came in to.

                      If you want to have a look, just say so and I will give it to you all).

                      The Estonia ship in the Baltic Sea, The fire accident of "Scandinavian

                      Star" between Norway and Sweden, not to mention all ferry accidents

                      around the Philiphine Islands. I could go on, but I guess you get the picture!

                      And most of these accidents are related to "human error".

                      And for sure, it will happen again and again, no matter what

                      precautions anyone will take.

                        

 

[josephbloggs]

5 hours ago, khunkarl said:

And now he will have to take the full responsibility for what has happened. 

He's dead.

[josephbloggs]

4 hours ago, ronaldo0 said:

 I haven’t heard of any air search going on which would be obvious way to look but wife said they did find two people today alive on Koh tan .

Three helicopters in the search, of course there was an air search going on!  Why wouldn't there be?  Idiotic comment.

 

Yes, two people found so a small mercy.

[khunkarl]

29 minutes ago, keystonecoppers2 said:

 

 

                      Please keep in mind, this kind of accidents happens all over

                      the world.

                      The capsize of a passenger ship very close to land in Italy,

                      "Concordia" something, where the Captain fleed the ship like

                      a rat, and sure, he was a rat! The passenger ship in S. Korea,

                      with another rat Captain fleeing, to save HIS life, and leaving

                      school shildren to die (I have pictures of that one, after salvation

                      of the ship, lying on a pier in a harbour where my ship came in to.

                      If you want to have a look, just say so and I will give it to you all).

                      The Estonia ship in the Baltic Sea, The fire accident of "Scandinavian

                      Star" between Norway and Sweden, not to mention all ferry accidents

                      around the Philiphine Islands. I could go on, but I guess you get the picture!

                      And most of these accidents are related to "human error".

                      And for sure, it will happen again and again, no matter what

                      precautions anyone will take.

                        

 

It happens everywhere in the world, totally correct. It will happen again no matter what precautions we take, totally wrong. Of course it will happen again but precautions, risk assessment, stability calculations, updated weather reports, ship maintenance, good seamanship and so much more are all keys factors for a safe sea passage. I've been working at sea for 20 years of my life and it's not by mere chance I'm still alive to do continue do the same. By the way Estonia sunk because the captain was pushing his ship 3 times as hard as any another passenger ferry of the same size in the same waters that night. Scandinavian star was arsoned  due to a insurance fraud..

[khunkarl]

16 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

He's dead.

Even worse

[khunkarl]

I've been giving this some thought as a seafarer myself. In my opinion the rapidness of events does indicate that Raja 4 did not have sufficient ballast. Therefore not overloaded but the exact opposite. And probably they didn't fill any as they normally don't need to. Which would result in heavy rolling causing rapid water intrusion and/or shift of cargo, even if the trucks were properly secured which I doubt they were, as again normally not needed. Probably just a wedge to prevent them from rolling forward and back, which is useless when the ship rolls side to side. RORO vessels (which stands for roll on roll off) are in particular vulnerable for heavy rolling side to side. As a seafarer my thoughts go today the victims and their families. It's so sad this had to happen when it could have been avoided in the first place.

[keystonecoppers2]

 

 

 

                                  Khunkarl.

 

              I agree with you that precautions will make a progress to be

              safer sailing in the future, but it will never be 100%, because

             of human error. Estonia was a human error, made by the captain

             and his officers on the bridge. They where speeding more than was

             needed in the very bad sea, because they where racing against another

             passenger ship from Helsinki, both en route to Stockholm. Why?

             Because they wanted to get to the Stockholm archipelago first,

             you could say ego took over.

             Scandinavian Star was a human error as well, even if arson was involved. 

             They had rebuilt the corridors on both starboard and port side,

             actually making it a death trap, instead of a safe way out, as it was, before 

             rebuilding. The human error I would suggest lies at the hands of the

             "architects" for the new layout, as well in the hands of the shipyard people

             that did not "see" what mistake they where about to build.

 

             I`ve been sailing for more than 40 years, and everytime I`ve been to

             a fire course (every 5 year, 5 days, mandatory), discussions always come up

             about S. Star. 

             Try to Google the ship and find the blueprint, then you know what I`m 

             talking about.  Anyway, nice to talk to a fellow seaman.   Cheers!     

 

             

 

[keystonecoppers2]

 

 

                            Khunkarl!

 

               Totally agree regarding the Raja 4. I`ve been on the Seatrans with car 

               many times, back and forth to the Island and they always seem to take

               precautions, regarding trucks and cars. The ships are getting old

               but as a sailor, I asked if I could see the engine room. They showed me,

               and I can tell you, it was spotless, not an oil slick, even around the

               separators. It was as a dollhouse. Surprised was an understatement,

               and ever since, I feel safe going with them. But sure, you never know

               when something comes up and bite your ass!   Cheers! 

 

[Tropicalevo]

5 hours ago, GAZZPA said:

European health and safety can be a pain, it is often moaned about because bad things very rarely happen. Of course the health and safety legislation is the exact reason why bad things rarely happen however tedious it can sometimes feel. Thailand who have next to no enforcement of health and safety have accidents like this frequently from what i see, in this instance lives were needlessly lost. 

 

Don't expect any different from a country with the worst road fatalities in the world due to zero care and attention to training, testing and enforcement. Taking a ferry in Thailand is a genuine risk, relying on the following of some robust H&S rules for your safety is foolish. RIP to the poor deceased and i feel for their families for this avoidable loss of life.

Not just in Thailand. Many other Asian countries, as well as African ones and so on have a poor record with ships/boats on lakes and seas.

[khunkarl]

1 hour ago, keystonecoppers2 said:

 

 

 

                                  Khunkarl.

 

              I agree with you that precautions will make a progress to be

              safer sailing in the future, but it will never be 100%, because

             of human error. Estonia was a human error, made by the captain

             and his officers on the bridge. They where speeding more than was

             needed in the very bad sea, because they where racing against another

             passenger ship from Helsinki, both en route to Stockholm. Why?

             Because they wanted to get to the Stockholm archipelago first,

             you could say ego took over.

             Scandinavian Star was a human error as well, even if arson was involved. 

             They had rebuilt the corridors on both starboard and port side,

             actually making it a death trap, instead of a safe way out, as it was, before 

             rebuilding. The human error I would suggest lies at the hands of the

             "architects" for the new layout, as well in the hands of the shipyard people

             that did not "see" what mistake they where about to build.

 

             I`ve been sailing for more than 40 years, and everytime I`ve been to

             a fire course (every 5 year, 5 days, mandatory), discussions always come up

             about S. Star. 

             Try to Google the ship and find the blueprint, then you know what I`m 

             talking about.  Anyway, nice to talk to a fellow seaman.   Cheers!     

 

             

 

Dear Keystonecoppers!

 

Nice to come across a fellow seaman here. I'll send you a private message.

 

Cheers!

 

[Albert Zweistein]

12 hours ago, RichardColeman said:

Or how about the captain of the boat ignored the bad conditions and still went ahead ?  

If not he gets sacked !

[Airbagwill]

8 hours ago, barney42bb said:

Seems the lessons to be learned from previous Ferry Health and Safety failures.... Have not been learned.

All Thai ferries seem to operate under the usual Thai health and safety philosophy

"Probably won't happen, anyway"

 

the concept of ensuring it CAN"T happen is totally alien in most Thai businesses

[Airbagwill]

4 hours ago, khunkarl said:

As explained, as it should be but here are things not as they should be. Read the entire comment again if you don't understand.

I understand perfectly.

[Airbagwill]

10 hours ago, khunkarl said:

It was a cargo vessel not a ferry fortunately.

you really need to check your info before posting -

[Airbagwill]

4 hours ago, khunkarl said:

Overloaded, poor stability, free liquid surfaces it doesn't really matter, the ship should never have left port as it was not seaworthy the weather, if seaworthy at all! An example of poor seamanship and a reminder how quickly things can go badly wrong at sea. Estonia sunk in the Baltic sea 1994 because the captain's priority was the time schedule and not the safety of ship and passengers. The other passenger ferries did 4 knots that night when Estonia did 15 knots. Because of that captain's poor judgement 852 people lost their lives that night.

You are missing the point and basically just stating the "bleeding' obvious" 

Yes - As I said before the vessel should not have set saiil

Yes these vessels are portly maintained and as you already admit you don't understand - the process of "certification" will be subject to a Thai way of doing things.

 

However the problem with the vessel will not be overloading - it is unlikely that th vehicles on board would be sufficient for that.

 

What is certain though is that RO-RO ferries are INHERENTLY dodgy in rough seas.

 

Those in charge are fully aware of how quickly the sea can change and of conditions on that crossing, they are also aware of the dangers if water is shipped on deck.

 

But the point is once that has happened the ship will inevitably sink or more likely capsize.

Speed of the Estonia or whatever are irelvent to this issue - if you want to look at something similar, look and the spirit of free Enterprise Townsend/Tporrensen disaster for something with similar causes.

[schvonsky1]

14 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

A bit more info in the paper that can't be mentioned.  It had only made it two miles from Samui when it capsized so not as if the storm snuck up on it.  I am on Samui at the moment and the weather and sea are bad.  And there have been clear weather warnings and shipping warnings since the 31st July.

RIP to the dead, not a nice way to go.

And I'm certainly not taking my crossing back until this weather system has passed.  The storm is raging right now.

Terrible news rip to those people horrible way to go ????

[ericnoodeeka]

6 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

You are missing the point and basically just stating the "bleeding' obvious" 

Yes - As I said before the vessel should not have set saiil

Yes these vessels are portly maintained and as you already admit you don't understand - the process of "certification" will be subject to a Thai way of doing things.

 

However the problem with the vessel will not be overloading - it is unlikely that th vehicles on board would be sufficient for that.

 

What is certain though is that RO-RO ferries are INHERENTLY dodgy in rough seas.

 

Those in charge are fully aware of how quickly the sea can change and of conditions on that crossing, they are also aware of the dangers if water is shipped on deck.

 

But the point is once that has happened the ship will inevitably sink or more likely capsize.

Speed of the Estonia or whatever are irelvent to this issue - if you want to look at something similar, look and the spirit of free Enterprise Townsend/Tporrensen disaster for something with similar causes.

Herald of free enterprise

[hashmodha]

On 8/2/2020 at 8:50 AM, petermik said:

I discovered quite some time ago...don`t use Raja to get to Samui.

R.I.P. to the deceased

Yes RIP indeed !????....Raja Ferry was so old and out of date and dodgy when we used to travel back and forth 15 years ago.....do they really care about sea worthy vessels here in Thailand?, that route is also Mafia type operations as it used cost a lot as there is a monopoly on that route....at times we remember getting caught in rough seas, very choppy waters!

[ChakaKhan]

23 hours ago, ThailandRyan said:

Why would a ferry run at the time of night, when warnings have been posted for the Monsoon and unsafe sea travel right know.  I wonder if one of the dump trucks was not locked in place and moved making the weight distribution unsteady when a swell hit.  

 

However, it does not matter, 7 lives are lost and my prayers are with there families.  RIP

Short answer..Money No.1

[khunkarl]

14 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

you really need to check your info before posting -

Of I'm sorry it's was an RoRo vessel having cargo not a ferry carrying passengers. A RoRo vessel carrying cargo is in technical terms a cargo ship.

[Airbagwill]

39 minutes ago, khunkarl said:

Of I'm sorry it's was an RoRo vessel having cargo not a ferry carrying passengers. A RoRo vessel carrying cargo is in technical terms a cargo ship.

Despite your "seaman" background, you seem blissfully unaware of te significance of this vessel being a R0 -Ro.

 

nothing to do with whether it is carrying cars or trucks or called cargo not passenger - the physical state of the vessel remains the same and that is the crucial point here.

[GAZZPA]

19 hours ago, keystonecoppers2 said:

 

 

                      Please keep in mind, this kind of accidents happens all over

                      the world.

                      The capsize of a passenger ship very close to land in Italy,

                      "Concordia" something, where the Captain fleed the ship like

                      a rat, and sure, he was a rat! The passenger ship in S. Korea,

                      with another rat Captain fleeing, to save HIS life, and leaving

                      school shildren to die (I have pictures of that one, after salvation

                      of the ship, lying on a pier in a harbour where my ship came in to.

                      If you want to have a look, just say so and I will give it to you all).

                      The Estonia ship in the Baltic Sea, The fire accident of "Scandinavian

                      Star" between Norway and Sweden, not to mention all ferry accidents

                      around the Philiphine Islands. I could go on, but I guess you get the picture!

                      And most of these accidents are related to "human error".

                      And for sure, it will happen again and again, no matter what

                      precautions anyone will take.

                        

 

What point are you making? Are you suggesting that Thailand has robust safe and measures equal to that of any other country? Or are you simply making a completely irrelevant statement that accidents can happen anywhere?????

[khunkarl]

14 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

You are missing the point and basically just stating the "bleeding' obvious" 

Yes - As I said before the vessel should not have set saiil

Yes these vessels are portly maintained and as you already admit you don't understand - the process of "certification" will be subject to a Thai way of doing things.

 

However the problem with the vessel will not be overloading - it is unlikely that th vehicles on board would be sufficient for that.

 

What is certain though is that RO-RO ferries are INHERENTLY dodgy in rough seas.

 

Those in charge are fully aware of how quickly the sea can change and of conditions on that crossing, they are also aware of the dangers if water is shipped on deck.

 

But the point is once that has happened the ship will inevitably sink or more likely capsize.

Speed of the Estonia or whatever are irelvent to this issue - if you want to look at something similar, look and the spirit of free Enterprise Townsend/Tporrensen disaster for something with similar causes.

I do know how certification process works on vessels I've been working on, that was what I was referring to. And yes I don't know how it works here. Lets just drop it shall we.

 

Totally agree now on that this ship was not overloaded. It was most likely not having sufficient ballast onboard. As no ballast the ship would become unstable in bad weather as its centre of gravity would been higher than desired. Having sufficient ballast the ship's centre of gravity would be lower which would contribute in better stability for this kind of vessel. It explains why it happened so fast. Sure this ship was lacking a bulkhead meaning water would be able to enter the deck this way but the captain could have easily prevented that from happening by reducing speed or altering the course. And he would have had time to react. But he probably had basically no time to react and this does strongly indicate that his ship was unstable already when leaving port. As the ship were hit by the weather (which hardly would have been a surprise) the ship started rolling heavy side to side, making the cargo shift and making the ship roll over. Significant wave height was 2-3 meters this night, that alone does not cause a ship of this size to roll over.

 

You are saying those in charge are fully aware, is naive. If they had been aware, this would not have happened. Most of the time the weather is calm and it's a short passage, not exactly making them experienced sailors..

 

The reason why I mentioned Estonia is because it's an example of what can happen when bad seamanship is practiced, same as it was in this case.

 

You can argue and disagree it's OK. I have enough sea experience to know what I'm talking about so it does not matter to me.