Berlin police arrest 300, disband protest against coronavirus curbs

[Tippaporn]

21 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

Looks like I have to spell it out like to a five year old: if everyone goes into quarantine and doesn’t have contact with anyone outside the ones they’re living with then the infected will get sick and then they either recover or die, therefore they’re not infectious anymore, hence there won’t be any new infections anymore either and the virus will die out in humans because there’s no one around it could infect. Just like SARS did. There’s been no new cases since 2004! Although SARS was less infectious than SARS-CoV-2 is. How’s that for evidence? Does that work for you?

It’s pretty obvious in my opinion! And how exactly it isn’t for you is a mystery to me, but then again I didn’t expect someone who’s in favor of parties during a global pandemic to actually be able/want to get it!  

Unfortunately you're not talking to a five year old where you might convince him of such an impractical idea.  Who's going to provide electricity, food, water, medical care, and all the other needs that people require to survive the isolation?  Wouldn't the people needed to provide these necessities be spreading the virus?  These would be just a few of the many practical questions to an impractical idea, no?

 

Aside from the logistical problems there's the fact that it would be impossible to convince the entire world's population to perform in lock step.  Again, your idea seems bright and shiny but absolutely impractical.  You can lament that fact but it does no good.

 

We haven't even touched on the issue of how deadly this virus is yet either.  Let's grant that the numbers are greater than the common, yearly flu but even the worst case numbers you could find do not warrant the insanity of shutting the world down.  Such is uncontrollable fear.

 

And we can talk about why some people are afflicted while others are not.  What might those variables be?  Could you even put a number to those variables even if they were all known (which I would say are not).

 

Now go out and find yourself a five year old to convince.

[Tippaporn]

21 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

On 8/31/2020 at 12:17 PM, Tippaporn said:

"Without it the numbers would be considerably higher!"

 

Unless you're God you legitimately have no idea of what "might of" happened.  Again, it's so easy to assert claims that you'll never have to back up.  Of course you may be able to point to other prognosticators or studies to "prove" your point but as someone else here wisely said the data and science are all over the map.  I'd go further and question much of the data itself.  Do you think for a moment that none of it has been manipulated or is outright false?  LOL

Ok, it’s official now, you’re either a troll or you’re incredibly mentally handicapped! It’s pretty <deleted> obvious that a virus like SARS-CoV-2 when allowed to spread freely will infect and therefore also kill a lot more people than if it isn’t allowed to spread freely! It’s common sense which you clearly do not possess! 

Sweden.

[from the home of CC]

associated with all this is a general anti vax message, if populations don't buy into a proven vaccine in a majority way we'll live with this virus for years..

[vermin on arrival]

3 hours ago, The Barmbeker said:

Not the point, though...is it!

The are crying over "living in a dictatorship" and got the demonstrate freely - IF...like in any other demonstration...certain rules are to be followed!

I don't see the debate here!

The other things that you are discussing that went on at their demonstration, I am not commenting on so please do not think that I am debating them. Yes, they broke the rules; it's just that I am not surprised that they broke them. You sure love your exclamation points. Are you really yelling at me? lol.

[vermin on arrival]

1 hour ago, from the home of CC said:

associated with all this is a general anti vax message, if populations don't buy into a proven vaccine in a majority way we'll live with this virus for years..

You may be right. Of course there are immunologists who believe that if herd immunity takes place naturally then a vaccine is not necessary. Some believe the number is hugely lower than commonly believed (I listened to one who put it all the way down to 20%-no joke)

 

I just also want to thank you. It's obvious that we disagree, but we can do it civilly in an attempt to truly understand things and without yelling at one another or becoming hysterical. It's the only way in which discussion leads to fruitful understanding and can lead people to change their minds. Have a great day : )

[pacovl46]

14 hours ago, vermin on arrival said:

I literally said "Currently though, at this moment in time, more people in the UK are dying from the flu than from covid.“ Please read carefully and don't change what I said. What you posted was not what I literally said. It was your interpretation of what I said. I did not say "that the flu kills more people than covid."

 

Do you know what "this moment in time" and "currently" means? It means right now. It doesn't mean last month it doesn't mean 6 months 

 

So what? It doesn’t matter whether in this very moment, as in right now, as in right this very second more people are dying from the flu! COVID ist still the bigger and much more important issue at hand! You’re just splitting hairs! You know exactly what I meant and now you feel the need to troll! 

[pacovl46]

13 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Unfortunately you're not talking to a five year old where you might convince him of such an impractical idea.  Who's going to provide electricity, food, water, medical care, and all the other needs that people require to survive the isolation?  Wouldn't the people needed to provide these necessities be spreading the virus?  These would be just a few of the many practical questions to an impractical idea, no?

 

Aside from the logistical problems there's the fact that it would be impossible to convince the entire world's population to perform in lock step.  Again, your idea seems bright and shiny but absolutely impractical.  You can lament that fact but it does no good.

 

We haven't even touched on the issue of how deadly this virus is yet either.  Let's grant that the numbers are greater than the common, yearly flu but even the worst case numbers you could find do not warrant the insanity of shutting the world down.  Such is uncontrollable fear.

 

And we can talk about why some people are afflicted while others are not.  What might those variables be?  Could you even put a number to those variables even if they were all known (which I would say are not).

 

Now go out and find yourself a five year old to convince.

I’m through with you! You know I’m right, but you don’t want to get it! Go troll someone else! 

[pacovl46]

13 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Sweden.

Brazil

[pacovl46]

14 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Sweden.

Just a few numbers from Sweden and Germany:

 

Germany has a population of 83.2 million, Sweden has a population of 10.3 Million. That’s roughly 8 times less.

 

Germany, as of right now, has a total of 246001 infected people. Sweden has a total of 85521. That’s roughly one third, despite having 8 times less people.

 

Germany, as of right now, has a death toll of 9381, Sweden has a death toll of 5813. That’s roughly 62% of Germany‘s death toll.

 

In Germany 0.29% of the population got infected, in Sweden 0.82% got infected. Germany had a lockdown and Sweden didn’t! 
 

The numbers clearly indicate that the lockdown and social distancing works! 

[Tippaporn]

23 minutes ago, pacovl46 said:

14 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Unfortunately you're not talking to a five year old where you might convince him of such an impractical idea.  Who's going to provide electricity, food, water, medical care, and all the other needs that people require to survive the isolation?  Wouldn't the people needed to provide these necessities be spreading the virus?  These would be just a few of the many practical questions to an impractical idea, no?

 

Aside from the logistical problems there's the fact that it would be impossible to convince the entire world's population to perform in lock step.  Again, your idea seems bright and shiny but absolutely impractical.  You can lament that fact but it does no good.

 

We haven't even touched on the issue of how deadly this virus is yet either.  Let's grant that the numbers are greater than the common, yearly flu but even the worst case numbers you could find do not warrant the insanity of shutting the world down.  Such is uncontrollable fear.

 

And we can talk about why some people are afflicted while others are not.  What might those variables be?  Could you even put a number to those variables even if they were all known (which I would say are not).

 

Now go out and find yourself a five year old to convince.

I’m through with you! You know I’m right, but you don’t want to get it! Go troll someone else! 

Not so fast.  I'm challenging your ideas by raising some hard questions.  Rather than providing answers to hard questions you instead simply dismiss me with a wave of your hand by labeling me a troll because, and I absolutely love this tactic, "You know I’m right, but you don’t want to get it!"

 

Rather than repeat my questions I included my original post for your reference.  Can you answer any of those questions?  Or, for the sake of your convenience in not having to respond to questions you have no readily available answers for, do you simply demand that we all simply agree with you with a mechanical nod of our heads?

[Tippaporn]

1 hour ago, pacovl46 said:

Just a few numbers from Sweden and Germany:

 

Germany has a population of 83.2 million, Sweden has a population of 10.3 Million. That’s roughly 8 times less.

 

Germany, as of right now, has a total of 246001 infected people. Sweden has a total of 85521. That’s roughly one third, despite having 8 times less people.

 

Germany, as of right now, has a death toll of 9381, Sweden has a death toll of 5813. That’s roughly 62% of Germany‘s death toll.

 

In Germany 0.29% of the population got infected, in Sweden 0.82% got infected. Germany had a lockdown and Sweden didn’t! 
 

The numbers clearly indicate that the lockdown and social distancing works! 

Sorry, but for one raw numbers don't necessarily tell the whole story.  It's well known that statistics allow you to come up with any conclusion you want, depending on what variables you include and which ones you leave out.  Covid is a complex phenomenon and I highly doubt, just as with climate change, that all of the variables are known let alone accounted for.

 

For another there is the data itself.  How accurate is it really?  I doubt anyone will ever know with any degree of certainty.  Consider, for example, the U.S. CDC data release this past weekend in which they now say that only 6% of the 165k Covid "deaths" where actually purely attributable to Covid, or roughly less than 10k actual deaths.  Here's the link to the CDC data from their website.

 

When considering the accuracy of any data from any country or organization one must keep in mind a host of other variables that went into the creation that data; from political motivations to monetary incentives and everything in between.  As to monetary incentives you might want to ask yourself if there is any temptation to attribute Covid in cases on a dubious basis.

 

New York Times - N.Y. Got $12,000 Per Virus Case, by One Count. Nebraska Got $379,000.

 

My sincere apologies if I refuse to be an unwitting, unthinking idiot who simply accepts answers given them.

[vermin on arrival]

7 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

 

So what? It doesn’t matter whether in this very moment, as in right now, as in right this very second more people are dying from the flu! COVID ist still the bigger and much more important issue at hand! You’re just splitting hairs! You know exactly what I meant and now you feel the need to troll! 

No not trolling and not splitting hairs. It seems you still don't understand the distinction I am trying to make. The distinction is actually very important to understand the dynamic and direction the disease is taking. It matters very much.

 

Currently, in Europe, covid is most likely not the threat it was this past March and April. Due to the deaths of the most susceptible people then (who cannot come back life again to die once more), the infection of younger demographics and improved treatment, we can resume a fair amount of normalcy there. There will be cases, but many fewer hospitalizations and fatalities.

 

Please do everyone in this thread a favor and calm down. Your hysteria adds nothing to the discussion. I can discuss calmly. Why can't you?

[vermin on arrival]

6 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

Just a few numbers from Sweden and Germany:

 

Germany has a population of 83.2 million, Sweden has a population of 10.3 Million. That’s roughly 8 times less.

 

Germany, as of right now, has a total of 246001 infected people. Sweden has a total of 85521. That’s roughly one third, despite having 8 times less people.

 

Germany, as of right now, has a death toll of 9381, Sweden has a death toll of 5813. That’s roughly 62% of Germany‘s death toll.

 

In Germany 0.29% of the population got infected, in Sweden 0.82% got infected. Germany had a lockdown and Sweden didn’t! 
 

The numbers clearly indicate that the lockdown and social distancing works! 

More infections can be a good thing as a society builds up immunity. This was precisely the thinking Sweden has taken.The error in their initial strategy was they didn't protect the nursing homes. Look at the current curves. The number of people in ICU in the whole country is 16 and deaths per day are in the single digits maximum. They are doing very well now.

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

[pacovl46]

11 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Not so fast.  I'm challenging your ideas by raising some hard questions.  Rather than providing answers to hard questions you instead simply dismiss me with a wave of your hand by labeling me a troll because, and I absolutely love this tactic, "You know I’m right, but you don’t want to get it!"

 

Rather than repeat my questions I included my original post for your reference.  Can you answer any of those questions?  Or, for the sake of your convenience in not having to respond to questions you have no readily available answers for, do you simply demand that we all simply agree with you with a mechanical nod of our heads?

I’ve already made my point! It’s not my fault you can’t see it! I’m done with you because you don’t want to get it and that’s all there is to it! Case closed! 

[pacovl46]

6 hours ago, vermin on arrival said:

No not trolling and not splitting hairs. It seems you still don't understand the distinction I am trying to make. The distinction is actually very important to understand the dynamic and direction the disease is taking. It matters very much.

 

Currently, in Europe, covid is most likely not the threat it was this past March and April. Due to the deaths of the most susceptible people then (who cannot come back life again to die once more), the infection of younger demographics and improved treatment, we can resume a fair amount of normalcy there. There will be cases, but many fewer hospitalizations and fatalities.

 

Please do everyone in this thread a favor and calm down. Your hysteria adds nothing to the discussion. I can discuss calmly. Why can't you?

Of course it’s not the threat it was back in March BECAUSE of the lockdown! Ease up and it will be the threat again it was back then, when Germany eased up the cases of new infections went right back up and with more infections come also more deaths! Also, the must susceptible people haven’t ALL died, yet, so that argument doesn’t hold any water! Until it’s gone we have to take measures accordingly. I don’t understand why this is so hard to get! And yeah, my proposal is extremely drastic, I’m completely aware of that, but in the long term it’s much more effective, faster,  considerably cheaper and much better for the economy than what is going on right now! 
 

By the way, I’m not here to do anyone favors. I’m telling it like I see it, just like you and your buddy tippaporn do, so please do me a favor and DON’T tell me what to do! 

Edited September 2, 2020 by pacovl46

[pacovl46]

4 hours ago, vermin on arrival said:

More infections can be a good thing as a society builds up immunity. This was precisely the thinking Sweden has taken.The error in their initial strategy was they didn't protect the nursing homes. Look at the current curves. The number of people in ICU in the whole country is 16 and deaths per day are in the single digits maximum. They are doing very well now.

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

Wrong! Representatives of the Swedish government, as well as its agencies, have repeatedly denied that pursuing herd immunity is part of the Swedish strategy, as claimed by foreign press and scientists in and outside Sweden. And eventually they did ban gatherings of people of more than 500 people and then they reduced that to gatherings of a maximum of 50 people. So, why did they do that, if they’re “strategy” of more or less doing nothing was so successful?! 
 

Then there’s also the fact that they couldn’t impose a complete lockdown because the law in Sweden specifically prohibits that, otherwise they most likely would’ve had a lockdown, too! 
 

The goal should’ve and should’ve been from the very beginning to exterminate the virus! 

[vermin on arrival]

6 minutes ago, pacovl46 said:

Of course it’s not the threat it was back in March BECAUSE of the lockdown! Ease up and it will be the threat again it was back then, when Germany eased up the cases of new infections went right back up and with more infections come also more deaths! Also, the must susceptible people haven’t ALL died, yet, so that argument doesn’t hold any water! Until it’s gone we have to take measures accordingly. I don’t understand why this is so hard to get! And yeah, my proposal is extremely drastic, I’m completely aware of that, but in the long term it’s much more effective, faste, considerably cheaper and much better for the economy than what is going on right now! 
 

By the way, I’m not here to do anyone favors. I’m telling it like I see it, just like you and your buddy tippaporn do, so please do me a favor and DON’T tell me what to do! 

No it's probably not because of the lockdown, the viral curves were going down before the lockdowns were enacted; in addition, other places had no lockdowns and had success. The lockdowns needed to come earlier as they did in NZ and Australia. They came too late in many places and the virus was already everywhere. However, they probably helped some. I'm also telling you like I see it and I'm also not here to do you any favors. However, I do address you and the other, with whom members I disagree, with respect.

 

Lock at the current infection rates, look at the ICUs and look at the fatalities; it's all there to see. No the susceptible haven't all died (lots of them did though), but it will be easier to isolate them now knowing what we do. I recommend a Valium, fewer exclamation points and fewer all caps. Yelling at people won't change their views. Have a good day : )

[Andy from Kent]

On 8/30/2020 at 11:26 AM, Antonymous said:

What is going on in Berlin and also in London, Ottawa and other places around the world is much, much bigger than the Reuters article and other MSM news is reporting in today's papers.

 

And the nature of the speeches and the people attending are vastly different than is being reported.

 

I am working my way through 9 hours of raw footage of the rallies, mostly shot in Berlin. What you see in the uncut footage is enormous crowds of peaceful, clean cut men and women of all ages, standing or walking peacefully, even keeping a social distance, except in areas where the police have hemmed in the crowds making social distancing impossible for them. There are multiple very large groups that have been separated and contained by the police, making the magnitude of the peaceful protest difficult to see.

 

Reports on the ground, that are not substantiated by the MSM, are that 800,000 to one million protesters gathered in Berlin alone yesterday to listen to speeches given by prominent figures.

 

One of the most important speeches was given by a member of parliament (Green party) in which he explained how the people must be allowed to engage in public discourse and thereby to be allowed to make a stand for the truth. These are intelligent people who are being labelled immediately as stupid or worse.

 

Robert F.Kennedy Jr (JFK's nephew) was one of the speakers from the USA.

 

There are multiple national flags on display among the crowd in Berlin, including Israel.

 

Make no mistake folks, we are not being given the full facts of these protests by the MSM. I would love to link to the raw footage to allow you to make your own judgement, but alas as it is not from what ThaiVisa regards as an 'approved source (aka MSM) I cannot. LOL.

 

 

No matter how you slice it, the Germans know how to put on a good protest.

 

[vermin on arrival]

41 minutes ago, pacovl46 said:

Wrong! Representatives of the Swedish government, as well as its agencies, have repeatedly denied that pursuing herd immunity is part of the Swedish strategy, as claimed by foreign press and scientists in and outside Sweden. And eventually they did ban gatherings of people of more than 500 people and then they reduced that to gatherings of a maximum of 50 people. So, why did they do that, if they’re “strategy” of more or less doing nothing was so successful?! 
 

Then there’s also the fact that they couldn’t impose a complete lockdown because the law in Sweden specifically prohibits that, otherwise they most likely would’ve had a lockdown, too! 
 

The goal should’ve and should’ve been from the very beginning to exterminate the virus! 

There have been conflicting reports out of Sweden on that. Some said they were and some said they weren't. Yes they did prohibit large gatherings. Currently, they are very confident about the immunity levels they have reached both with antibodies and t-cell immunity (which may have reached 30% of the population). One need only look at Sweden's current situation to know they did something right.

 

There is a very fine interview of Swedish doctor and researcher Soo Aleman by Freddie Sayers online (can't post the link because it is youtube). Here is the viewpoint of a Swedish doctor.

 

https://sebastianrushworth.com/2020/08/04/how-bad-is-covid-really-a-swedish-doctors-perspective/

 

Exterminate the virus...unlikely and would have been the first time in human history it was ever done by shutting down society. Most (or many) epidemiologists know you can't control the virus, you can only mitigate. Seem like hubris. If there is no vaccine developed, the Asian countries still locked up tight will be in a world of hurt.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by vermin on arrival

[pacovl46]

10 hours ago, vermin on arrival said:

There have been conflicting reports out of Sweden on that. Some said they were and some said they weren't. Yes they did prohibit large gatherings. Currently, they are very confident about the immunity levels they have reached both with antibodies and t-cell immunity (which may have reached 30% of the population). One need only look at Sweden's current situation to know they did something right.

 

There is a very fine interview of Swedish doctor and researcher Soo Aleman by Freddie Sayers online (can't post the link because it is youtube). Here is the viewpoint of a Swedish doctor.

 

https://sebastianrushworth.com/2020/08/04/how-bad-is-covid-really-a-swedish-doctors-perspective/

 

Exterminate the virus...unlikely and would have been the first time in human history it was ever done by shutting down society. Most (or many) epidemiologists know you can't control the virus, you can only mitigate. Seem like hubris. If there is no vaccine developed, the Asian countries still locked up tight will be in a world of hurt.

Controlling viruses seems like hubris? How about smallpox and Rinderpest then? They both have been eradicated! So has SARS-CoV-1, no new cases since 2004. Then there’s the fact that polio and several other infectious diseases are well on their way to eradication as well! 
 

A virus needs a host it can infect, if there’s no host available it will die out! It’s that simple! 
 

Whether you and your buddy can get your head around that doesn’t change the fact! 
 

 I’m done! 

Edited September 2, 2020 by pacovl46

[vermin on arrival]

7 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

Controlling viruses seems like hubris? How about smallpox and Rinderpest then? They both have been eradicated! So has SARS-CoV-1, no new cases since 2004. Then there’s the fact that polio and several other infectious diseases are well on their way to eradication as well! 
 

A virus needs a host it can infect, if there’s no host available it will die out! It’s that simple! 
 

Whether you and your buddy can get your head around that doesn’t change the fact! 
 

 I’m done! 

Yes, and it took them ages(decades) to get it done and required vaccines (for smallpox and rinderpest-the latter a new one for me thanks). Just thinking you can employ lockdowns and some state policies to eradicate a virus as infectious as this one that has spread all over the world seems absurd or at the very least highly unlikely (the illusion of control).

 

SARS 1 pretty much went away on its own and was much much easier to manage.

 

I'm surprised you can't get your head around the facts we are pointing out. I won't miss your King Learesque screaming and hysterical posts. I do hope you stay safe and get through these difficult times despite what appear to be the obvious difficulties you are having. I wish you well : )