Brexit back in crisis as UK threatens to undercut divorce pact

[Chomper Higgot]

11 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

Due to my age ( an excuse ), and being not very smart ( a fact ), I don't understand why the U.K. is still trying to negotiate, and not smash the door.

A simple/plain explanation would be welcome.

Because the UK needs access to EU markets.

[luckyluke]

1 minute ago, Pilotman said:

Covid has been in good thing in regard to the EU/UK break up.  We should stop any further negotiation with those EU  muppets and just leave. Its gone on way way too long and they clearly have no intention of being reasonable. Just leave.

Right,

maybe you can tell me why they don't. See my post 26.

Or at least why you personally think why they don't.

[JonnyF]

4 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

You want to leave the club but still have access to the club but not pay membership fees or obey the rules.

Incorrect (again).

 

Funny how you love to tell us what we want. You have no idea. We want to leave. 100%. A fair FTA is fine but if the EU cannot grow up and sign a fair deal then WTO is fine. You do realize that is how the bulk of trade around the world is done, don't you?

 

We won't be following any of their protectionist rules as we wish to open ourselves up to trade with the rest of the world. A truly global outlook, no longer tied by the rules that the EU has created to prevent this from happening.

 

And the best thing is, it will happen in December. That must really burn for you Europhiles that wish to hide under the EU's skirt. ????

[luckyluke]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

Because the UK needs access to EU markets.

Thanks,

other reasons from other members( especially Brexiters) are of course welcome, this in order to have a full point of view of the situation.

[Pilotman]

18 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

Right,

maybe you can tell me why they don't. See my post 26.

Or at least why you personally think why they don't.

to be perfectly honest, I can't be arsed.  I'm not really that interested in the basket case that is the UK now. It's going down the pan so quickly anyway, that not much can save it from years of austerity.  I'm just sick of reading about it and want it done and dusted so that the world can get on with something more interesting. 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Pilotman

[JonnyF]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Because the UK needs access to EU markets.

You think the EU will block us from their markets if there is no trade deal? Oh dear... ????

 

Trade will continue. Sure there will be some tariffs (on both sides), just as there is on the bulk of trade around the world that is done on WTO terms.

 

If the Germans want the UK government to collect thousands of pounds every time they sell a car in the UK, be our guests. See how that affects their sales when British consumers start buying more competitively priced cars from countries that understand the benefits of a fair FTA. 

 

 

[luckyluke]

3 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

to be perfectly honest, I can be arsed.  I'm not really that interested in the basket case that is the UK now. It's going down the pan so quickly anyway, that not much can save it from years of austerity.  I'm just sick of reading about it and want it done and dusted so that the world can get on with something more interesting. 

Thanks, but unfortunately it doesn't help me.

Neither, sadly, does the post here above. 

Edited September 8, 2020 by luckyluke

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

Incorrect (again).

 

Funny how you love to tell us what we want. You have no idea. We want to leave. 100%. A fair FTA is fine but if the EU cannot grow up and sign a fair deal then WTO is fine. You do realize that is how the bulk of trade around the world is done, don't you?

 

We won't be following any of their protectionist rules as we wish to open ourselves up to trade with the rest of the world. A truly global outlook, no longer tied by the rules that the EU has created to prevent this from happening.

 

And the best thing is, it will happen in December. That must really burn for you Europhiles that wish to hide under the EU's skirt. ????

Thats the problem. What Brexiteers deem to be fair is not what the EU considers to be fair.

There will be no deal because neither side can compromise. The EU cant give the UK favourable terms because then every member of the EU would want the same deal.

The UK cant compromise because of all the rhetoric and bluster Brexiteers have given out over minor issues such as fishing.

Ergo its no deal. We will crash out. The economy will suffer massive damage and the UK will break apart.

Hey its what you guys wanted. You all knew what you were voting for.

[JonnyF]

5 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

Thanks,

other reasons from other members( especially Brexiters) are of course welcome, this in order to have a full point of view of the situation.

Ignore him.

 

The UK will of course continue to have access to EU markets (and vice versa) under WTO terms (under which the bulk of world trade is done). The EU has a massive trade surplus with the UK, they're not going to stop trade between the two. 

[crobe]

19 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

This is true.

 

The only hitch is that the Withdrawal agreement says that both sides must act in good faith. The EU has not done, as you have pointed out.

You mischaracterise by intent - in fact I have to say that most of your posts are fake news.

While it is incumbent on both sides to act in good faith both have their negotiating positions, the EU wants to have a level playing field on state aid, jusrisdiction by ECJ in some areas and maintain current agreements on fishing rights - the UK has other positions - taking a negotiating position is not acting in bad faith.

 

In contrast you have not pointed out any specific instance where the EU has gone against the withdrawal agreement - the fact that you do not like their positions is no proof that they have not abided by the terms of the agreement.

In the withdrawal agreement - signed by Boris Johnson, the UK does agree to be bound by European rules on state aid during the transition period and up to 4 years after as stated in Article 93

 

"In respect of aid granted before the end of the transition period, for a period of 4 years after the end of the transition period, the European Commission shall be competent to initiate new administrative procedures on State aid governed by Regulation (EU) 2015/1589 concerning the United Kingdom."

 

So contrary to your assertion, in this particular case, it is the UK, not the EU, which wants to back out of the agreement as written.

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by crobe
typo

[vogie]

And of course when we leave with a 'no deal' it will be the fault of Boris and nothing what-so-ever to do with the EU, the bond some remainers have with the EU is quite touching really.

[transam]

16 hours ago, Mavideol said:

555 am with you

Really, what country is that then......?   ????

PS. Don't worry Bluespunk, they won't grass you up....????

Edited September 8, 2020 by transam

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

And of course when we leave with a 'no deal' it will be the fault of Boris and nothing what-so-ever to do with the EU, the bond some remainers have with the EU is quite touching really.

It will be the fault of people who made claims like "Easiest deal in history". They are the ones who managed to convince a majority in the referendum.

 

[JonnyF]

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Ergo its no deal. We will crash out. The economy will suffer massive damage and the UK will break apart.

The sky is falling!

 

Save your project fear nonsense for someone who doesn't understand how much trade around the world is done on WTO terms. The EU doesn't have a comprehensive FTA with USA or China either. Do you know how much trade they do with them?

 

There will be no crash. No cliff edge. No train wreck or whatever cliches you fear peddler's come up with. We'll trade on WTO terms until the EU grows up and realizes an FTA will benefit both sides. I predict around 2022.

[Bluespunk]

17 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

"Our top priority is to preserve the huge gains from the peace process and the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement, 

Your words and actions [if reports are true] do not match up.

 

Perfidious albion indeed

 

Edit: Seems the distrust is widespread.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/07/leaked-eu-cables-reveal-mistrust-of-uk-motives-in-brexit-talks?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Edited September 8, 2020 by Bluespunk

[Pilotman]

3 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

Thanks, but unfortunately it doesn't help me.

I'm  not sure that you will ever get any help, certainly not on TVF and not from the EU and UK proclamations.  It is what it is, it will be what it will be. Cynicism is allowed when dealing with any political process. You and I and millions of others are merely pawns in the political games played by fairly stupid, self centered, egotistical, political muppets, and their civil service mates.  That's democracy for you.  Relax and don't try to understand it, because even they don't understand what they are doing and what the end game is, if they don't, why should you? 

[CorpusChristie]

Just now, Rookiescot said:

It will be the fault of people who made claims like "Easiest deal in history". They are the ones who managed to convince a majority in the referendum.

 

You missed the "Should be the " from your quote 

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

The sky is falling!

 

Save your project fear nonsense for someone who doesn't understand how much trade around the world is done on WTO terms. The EU doesn't have a comprehensive FTA with USA or China either. Do you know how much trade they do with them?

 

There will be no crash. No cliff edge. No train wreck or whatever cliches you fear peddler's come up with. We'll trade on WTO terms until the EU grows up and realizes an FTA will benefit both sides. I predict around 2022.

Right OK.

See you in January.

[JonnyF]

6 minutes ago, crobe said:

the EU wants to have a level playing field on state aid, jusrisdiction by ECJ in some areas and maintain current agreements on fishing rights

All of which do not respect UK sovereignty, which is a key part of the withdrawal agreement.

 

You can't get around that. They have not abided by the terms of the WA in demanding such things for an FTA.

 

It's really not that complicated, no matter how you try to dress it up.

[transam]

2 hours ago, Victornoir said:

The rage of the spoiled child when one says "no", BJ now understands that the EU will not give in, even on the detail and that it will not get anything.

Last rude attempt before the storm... and his probable resignation.

Very funny.........................

Have you got your new EU tax bill yet...?    ????

 

Hi Bluespunk, you got yours then......????

Edited September 8, 2020 by transam

[JonnyF]

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Right OK.

See you in January.

Sure. I'll be the one celebrating at the bar with a big smile on my face. 

 

I'll buy you a glass of Scotch to cry into.

[luckyluke]

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Ignore him.

 

The UK will of course continue to have access to EU markets (and vice versa) under WTO terms (under which the bulk of world trade is done). The EU has a massive trade surplus with the UK, they're not going to stop trade between the two. 

Thanks for your post,

but this become ridiculous.

I thought my question was an easy one.

And I get 1 plain/simple reason/opinion, the rest is, sorry, red herrings, 

 

 

[crobe]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

And of course when we leave with a 'no deal' it will be the fault of Boris and nothing what-so-ever to do with the EU, the bond some remainers have with the EU is quite touching really.

The EU has been much better at presenting a united front on negotiations than the UK, so of course it appears that they are more interested in a deal, whereas in the UK there is a lot of noise from people who would prefer no-deal (and no negotiations) anyway.

 

There will be no reconciling of the two partisan sides anyway, but as Boris took credit for negotiating the withdrawal agreement when Theresa May could not, he also has to "own" the no-deal if that is the outcome

 

 

[Pilotman]

3 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

Thanks for your post,

but this become ridiculous.

I thought my question was an easy one.

And I get 1 plain/simple reason/opinion, the rest is, sorry, red herrings, 

 

 

if it was easy, they would have solved it already, not been debating it for many years. 

[transam]

22 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

to be perfectly honest, I can't be arsed.  I'm not really that interested in the basket case that is the UK now. It's going down the pan so quickly anyway, that not much can save it from years of austerity.  I'm just sick of reading about it and want it done and dusted so that the world can get on with something more interesting. 

Don't read the thread then...Gawd .....

[transam]

31 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Because the UK needs access to EU markets.

....and visa-versa.....????

[vogie]

6 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

Thanks for your post,

but this become ridiculous.

I thought my question was an easy one.

And I get 1 plain/simple reason/opinion, the rest is, sorry, red herrings, 

 

 

Don't mention fish, I mentioned it, but I think I got away with it!

[Pilotman]

1 minute ago, transam said:

Don't read the thread then...Gawd .....

I like to know what is winding up other people into a frenzy, that they can do nothing about.  It's called entertainment, which is what TVF is all about isn't it? 

[transam]

35 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Thats the problem. What Brexiteers deem to be fair is not what the EU considers to be fair.

There will be no deal because neither side can compromise. The EU cant give the UK favourable terms because then every member of the EU would want the same deal.

The UK cant compromise because of all the rhetoric and bluster Brexiteers have given out over minor issues such as fishing.

Ergo its no deal. We will crash out. The economy will suffer massive damage and the UK will break apart.

Hey its what you guys wanted. You all knew what you were voting for.

Do the UK waters belong to the UK or not......Yes or No...?

 

PS. Bluespunk, surely you are not confused by that question....????

Edited September 8, 2020 by transam

[crobe]

6 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

All of which do not respect UK sovereignty, which is a key part of the withdrawal agreement.

 

You can't get around that. They have not abided by the terms of the WA in demanding such things for an FTA.

 

It's really not that complicated, no matter how you try to dress it up.

Fake news.

There is no content in the Withdrawal agreement which states that the UK have "sovereignty" over everything - in fact the word sovereignty is only used in one particular case - the protocol on Gibraltar

"UNDERLINING that this Protocol is without prejudice to the respective legal positions of the Kingdom of Spain and the United Kingdom with regard to sovereignty and jurisdiction,"

 

As to good faith the WA treaty states that:

"The Union and the United Kingdom shall, in full mutual respect and good faith, assist each other in carrying out tasks which flow from this Agreement. They shall take all appropriate measures, whether general or particular, to ensure fulfilment of the obligations arising from this Agreement and shall refrain from any measures which could jeopardise the attainment of the objectives of this Agreement."

 

You cannot provide evidence of where the EU has not abided by this as you assert

 

The Withdrawal Agreement states that both sides are committed to negotiate a future trading agreement, but does not state that the EU has to accept an FTA, or that the UK has to either - so your assertions there are also wrong