Cambodia And Vietnam: Bad Alternatives

[dumspero]

I haven't seen anybody explain why either Vietnam or Cambodia is a serious, long-term alternative to Thailand. Both countries are a mess politically and economically. Sure, they are likely to experience big growth in the next few years--but that says almost nothing when a country's economy is so small. Once they begin to have some meaningful level of prosperity, they will face the same challenges that Thailand has over the last 30 years or so (not sure how far back to go to get way back to where Vietnam and Cambodia are now).

In fact, we can expect them to have even bigger growing pains because neither country has as stable a government and military (and the factor we can't discuss, but we all know it's a positive one) as does Thailand. For God's sake, Cambodia has no government, and Vietnam claims still claims to be a communist country and (they're no China).

In contrast, why do so many people think Thailand is a bad prospect? Sure, it is to those the government wants to get rid of, such as the illegals, the druggies, the impoverished and those in the small business sector that Thais would prefer to see remain relatively more available to Thais, but I just don't see any problem for reasonably well-heeled retirees, i.e. 100,000 Baht or so, or maybe a little more, or for those working expats contributing to the counry in a way that Thais understand cannot be done by Thais. After all, aren't those the only folks who should be expecting to be able to stay in a foreign country, those who have the wealth to be 'proper' retirees or those who have something to offer in terms of work that can't be filled internally? Isn't that the way with most countries?

[KireB]

Thailand is a lovely country, a very pleasant place to be.

But it's practically impossible to invest in your future here.

Not allowed to own land, visa changes, business law changes, etc....

[mikethevigoman]

I haven't seen anybody explain why either Vietnam or Cambodia is a serious, long-term alternative to Thailand. Both countries are a mess politically and economically. Sure, they are likely to experience big growth in the next few years--but that says almost nothing when a country's economy is so small. Once they begin to have some meaningful level of prosperity, they will face the same challenges that Thailand has over the last 30 years or so (not sure how far back to go to get way back to where Vietnam and Cambodia are now).

In fact, we can expect them to have even bigger growing pains because neither country has as stable a government and military (and the factor we can't discuss, but we all know it's a positive one) as does Thailand. For God's sake, Cambodia has no government, and Vietnam claims still claims to be a communist country and (they're no China).

In contrast, why do so many people think Thailand is a bad prospect? Sure, it is to those the government wants to get rid of, such as the illegals, the druggies, the impoverished and those in the small business sector that Thais would prefer to see remain relatively more available to Thais, but I just don't see any problem for reasonably well-heeled retirees, i.e. 100,000 Baht or so, or maybe a little more, or for those working expats contributing to the counry in a way that Thais understand cannot be done by Thais. After all, aren't those the only folks who should be expecting to be able to stay in a foreign country, those who have the wealth to be 'proper' retirees or those who have something to offer in terms of work that can't be filled internally? Isn't that the way with most countries?

Ihave never seen so many toyota landcruisers per capita in any country as cambodia !

[mikethevigoman]

Thailand is a lovely country, a very pleasant place to be.

But it's practically impossible to invest in your future here.

Not allowed to own land, visa changes, business law changes, etc....

IS it only me but i just cant relax and feel im at home here, yes i do live here with my family ( thai ) but i still feel like and get treated like a tourist,. Cant ever feel ill be buried here,.!

[PhilHarries]

I view Viet Nam, not sure about Cambodia, as an alternative to Thailand same way as I view the Philippines and Malaysia. I am still working and building up my funds for a retirement currently projected as three plus years (probably five). When the time comes I'll make my choice, 90% Thailand at present, based on the then current situation and my experiences gained travelling to, and living in, those countries. Sure there are problems in all countries and there will be in the future but that's what you inherit when you make the choice to live your days out in a foriegn land.

Life is never easy, the alternative is easy but sucks big time.

[plachon]

Thailand is a lovely country, a very pleasant place to be.

But it's practically impossible to invest in your future here.

Not allowed to own land, visa changes, business law changes, etc....

IS it only me but i just cant relax and feel im at home here, yes i do live here with my family ( thai ) but i still feel like and get treated like a tourist,. Cant ever feel ill be buried here,.!

Hah, probably be cremated like everyone else!

Can't for the life of me imagine why you'd want to stay in Thailand if you can't relax or feel at home here. maybe your family are the ones supporting you financially and moving back to whence you came is not an option?

Sometimes, if one acts like a ascetic, fool, tourist, bludger, etc., one gets treated as such. But if one acts like a useful, contributing, member of the community the same can be said. Not saying you don't, but as you live in Pattaya, I can guess why you treated like a tourist..................

[Begbie]

For God's sake, Cambodia has no government, and Vietnam claims still claims to be a communist country and (they're no China).

Cambodia has its most stable government for the past 40 years and is now looking for and encouraging foreign investment.

I own a Private Ltd Company in Cambodia. It's 100% mine with no Khmer partners. With the Company registration I also get a work permit and I can hire as many foreigners as I want,as long has they have a business visa ($280 a year, just apply and get it.Simple) but I hire Khmers for the cheaper salaries and only hire westerners for the specialst jobs when I need to.

You obviously have no experience of living and/or working in Cambodia. It amuses me that you should make such comments about a topic you have no knowledge of.

I have lived and worked in Thailand, Vietnam and Cambodia.

Cambodia wins hands down for ease of establishment and ongoing running of a business.I get the feeling they actually want us here. I certainly didn't get that feeling from Thailand and Vietnam.

[mikethevigoman]

Thailand is a lovely country, a very pleasant place to be.

But it's practically impossible to invest in your future here.

Not allowed to own land, visa changes, business law changes, etc....

IS it only me but i just cant relax and feel im at home here, yes i do live here with my family ( thai ) but i still feel like and get treated like a tourist,. Cant ever feel ill be buried here,.!

Hah, probably be cremated like everyone else!

Can't for the life of me imagine why you'd want to stay in Thailand if you can't relax or feel at home here. maybe your family are the ones supporting you financially and moving back to whence you came is not an option?

Sometimes, if one acts like a ascetic, fool, tourist, bludger, etc., one gets treated as such. But if one acts like a useful, contributing, member of the community the same can be said. Not saying you don't, but as you live in Pattaya, I can guess why you treated like a tourist..................

ITS to do with pros and cons, which is worse or best etc, i wish it was black and white as you seem to suggest, and although i live in pattaya most of my business is done in bkk,. and before you jump to any conclusions i go out for a drink 2 times a month tops,. so i dont frequent the bars etc as you may assume,.and i didnt marry a bar girl or pay monthly installments for her,. as for her family supporting me you are truly showing your ignorance there buddy,. ask any farang here about being kepy by a thai,. not that my wife wouldnt if she could, QUOTE,But it's practically impossible to invest in your future here.

Not allowed to own land, visa changes, business law changes, etc., So you are happy and relaxed here are you, are thais treated like this in our country ? no ,..we are 2nd class citizens, period

Edited April 28, 2007 by mikethevigoman

[Jimjim]

Cambodia wins hands down for ease of establishment and ongoing running of a business.I get the feeling they actually want us here. I certainly didn't get that feeling from Thailand and Vietnam.

Perhaps if Cambodia becomes more prosperous in the future and its citizens are able to take control of the businesses, then these visas you have now wouldn't be so easy to come by.

[qwertz]

Thailand is a lovely country, a very pleasant place to be.

But it's practically impossible to invest in your future here.

Not allowed to own land, visa changes, business law changes, etc....

IS it only me but i just cant relax and feel im at home here, yes i do live here with my family ( thai ) but i still feel like and get treated like a tourist,. Cant ever feel ill be buried here,.!

This is the right attitude for a farang. Enjoy for the present what you've found there if it's better than what you left behind but never forget that you'll never become one of them. You're not at home there if you're not Thai. This applies to most places where you choose to make a new start; always keep in mind that where there is a beginning there also has to be an end , however unforeseen.

Edited April 28, 2007 by qwertz

[Sunderland]

I haven't seen anybody explain why either Vietnam or Cambodia is a serious, long-term alternative to Thailand. Both countries are a mess politically and economically. Sure, they are likely to experience big growth in the next few years--but that says almost nothing when a country's economy is so small. Once they begin to have some meaningful level of prosperity, they will face the same challenges that Thailand has over the last 30 years or so (not sure how far back to go to get way back to where Vietnam and Cambodia are now).

In fact, we can expect them to have even bigger growing pains because neither country has as stable a government and military (and the factor we can't discuss, but we all know it's a positive one) as does Thailand. For God's sake, Cambodia has no government, and Vietnam claims still claims to be a communist country and (they're no China).

In contrast, why do so many people think Thailand is a bad prospect? Sure, it is to those the government wants to get rid of, such as the illegals, the druggies, the impoverished and those in the small business sector that Thais would prefer to see remain relatively more available to Thais, but I just don't see any problem for reasonably well-heeled retirees, i.e. 100,000 Baht or so, or maybe a little more, or for those working expats contributing to the counry in a way that Thais understand cannot be done by Thais. After all, aren't those the only folks who should be expecting to be able to stay in a foreign country, those who have the wealth to be 'proper' retirees or those who have something to offer in terms of work that can't be filled internally? Isn't that the way with most countries?

Ihave never seen so many toyota landcruisers per capita in any country as cambodia !

You haven't been to the United Arab Emirates then!!

[midas]

Ihave never seen so many toyota landcruisers per capita in any country as cambodia !

YES its looks like everyone is doing very well ! But then you discover that almost all of them

are actually quite old and secondhand but in good condition !

[makrook]

In fact, we can expect them to have even bigger growing pains because neither country has as stable a government and military (and the factor we can't discuss, but we all know it's a positive one) as does Thailand. For God's sake, Cambodia has no government, and Vietnam claims still claims to be a communist country and (they're no China).

ok, you hate communists, but still ... as per the stability of the government and the army, could we stay logical ? because gvt and army "stability" of thailand compared to vietnam, if you just dare compare the coup per year ratio ....

[Furbie]

I would be very nervous investing in Cambodia, but have no problem investing in Vietnam.

Vietnam is coming up in the world and I was very impressed during business travel as to how well trained the staff I encountered there was/is.

English levels everywhere I ate were exceptional (better than Thailand – though there are fewer restaurants) and the staff seemed to grasp basic concepts lacking in some finer restaurants in Thailand– including the entrées should arrive after eating the appetizer, staff should check on the table, etc. - it felt like I was at a restaurant in Singapore. I was also impressed by how eager the staff were to do their jobs and ensure other staff were doing their job as well.

Finally, I was also greatly impressed by the receptiveness of the Vietnamese business and government leaders I met with to listen to and implement advice (provided it did not go against policy) – as well as pay attention in meetings and remain focused on the task at hand - they may be a communist government, but when it comes to business, they have the souls of capitalists.

Once English levels are up in Vietnam to Thailand levels and infrastructure is more advanced, the Vietnamese work ethic is going to do some real damage to Thai competitiveness.

[uptou]

as much as i enjoyed cambodia,i'm not to sure about the police (paying bribes for half made up offences),or the medical care if i got seriously ill,but i guess its adventure.

[wintermute]

In fact, we can expect them to have even bigger growing pains because neither country has as stable a government and military (and the factor we can't discuss, but we all know it's a positive one) as does Thailand. For God's sake, Cambodia has no government, and Vietnam claims still

claims to be a communist country and (they're no China).

Vietnam's government is arguably more stable and organized than Thailand's at the moment. They have strong central authoritarian government that has been in power ever since they fought and won their independence from foreign powers. There have been no major political or social upheavals since the '70's and they have been on a steady incline economically. Culturally their work ethic and motivation for growth is far greater than Thailand.

In contrast, why do so many people think Thailand is a bad prospect? Sure, it is to those the government wants to get rid of, such as the illegals, the druggies, the impoverished and those in the small business sector that Thais would prefer to see remain relatively more available to Thais, but I just don't see any problem for reasonably well-heeled retirees, i.e. 100,000 Baht or so, or maybe a little more, or for those working expats contributing to the counry in a way that Thais understand cannot be done by Thais.

The greatest pitfalls are actually against those "well-heeled" retirees who will be risking their savings and pensions in a country that seems to move the goal posts every few years in regards to real estate, corporate ownership, visas and other various laws. As a whole this isn't just a mere annoyance but detrimental to those that have taken up roots in this country.

[LoveDaBlues]

In fact, we can expect them to have even bigger growing pains because neither country has as stable a government and military (and the factor we can't discuss, but we all know it's a positive one) as does Thailand. For God's sake, Cambodia has no government, and Vietnam claims still

claims to be a communist country and (they're no China).

Vietnam's government is arguably more stable and organized than Thailand's at the moment. They have strong central authoritarian government that has been in power ever since they fought and won their independence from foreign powers. There have been no major political or social upheavals since the '70's and they have been on a steady incline economically. Culturally their work ethic and motivation for growth is far greater than Thailand.

In contrast, why do so many people think Thailand is a bad prospect? Sure, it is to those the government wants to get rid of, such as the illegals, the druggies, the impoverished and those in the small business sector that Thais would prefer to see remain relatively more available to Thais, but I just don't see any problem for reasonably well-heeled retirees, i.e. 100,000 Baht or so, or maybe a little more, or for those working expats contributing to the counry in a way that Thais understand cannot be done by Thais.

The greatest pitfalls are actually against those "well-heeled" retirees who will be risking their savings and pensions in a country that seems to move the goal posts every few years in regards to real estate, corporate ownership, visas and other various laws. As a whole this isn't just a mere annoyance but detrimental to those that have taken up roots in this country.

how is a retiree in Thailand risking his pension?

[torito]

For God's sake, Cambodia has no government, and Vietnam claims still claims to be a communist country and (they're no China).

Cambodia has its most stable government for the past 40 years and is now looking for and encouraging foreign investment.

I own a Private Ltd Company in Cambodia. It's 100% mine with no Khmer partners. With the Company registration I also get a work permit and I can hire as many foreigners as I want,as long has they have a business visa ($280 a year, just apply and get it.Simple) but I hire Khmers for the cheaper salaries and only hire westerners for the specialst jobs when I need to.

You obviously have no experience of living and/or working in Cambodia. It amuses me that you should make such comments about a topic you have no knowledge of.

I have lived and worked in Thailand, Vietnam and Cambodia.

Cambodia wins hands down for ease of establishment and ongoing running of a business.I get the feeling they actually want us here. I certainly didn't get that feeling from Thailand and Vietnam.

Great information 'Begbie' , from somebody who has done it..

I have been working in Cambodia and I love it....the people is great...the ladies very beautiful and above all I think that farangs can contribute much more in there than in here....(well....farangs who are constructive and want to wokr).

Cambodia for me is not an alternative, but an option.....Well done 'Begbie'.

Edited April 28, 2007 by torito

[yoshiwara]

...not sure what some people are complaining about exactly apart from prices going up.......................

[JR Texas]

For God's sake, Cambodia has no government, and Vietnam claims still claims to be a communist country and (they're no China).

Cambodia has its most stable government for the past 40 years and is now looking for and encouraging foreign investment.

I own a Private Ltd Company in Cambodia. It's 100% mine with no Khmer partners. With the Company registration I also get a work permit and I can hire as many foreigners as I want,as long has they have a business visa ($280 a year, just apply and get it.Simple) but I hire Khmers for the cheaper salaries and only hire westerners for the specialst jobs when I need to.

You obviously have no experience of living and/or working in Cambodia. It amuses me that you should make such comments about a topic you have no knowledge of.

I have lived and worked in Thailand, Vietnam and Cambodia.

Cambodia wins hands down for ease of establishment and ongoing running of a business.I get the feeling they actually want us here. I certainly didn't get that feeling from Thailand and Vietnam.

JR Texas: I live in Thailand (been here off and on since 1986). I have also lived for two months in Cambodia. Given that Thailand is doing everything in its power to destroy its economy and cause massive social unrest, Cambodia is looking better to me, especially Sihanoukville.

But if Thailand goes, what impact will that have on Cambodia (no need to answer, should thinking).

I agree that the visa rules and regulations are SIMPLE and SANE compared to the totally crazy visa rules in Thailand. I do not know anything about the business rules and regulations in Cambodia........you make it sound easy. Again, Thailand's business rules and regulations for foreigners are totally insane and simply hurt the economy.

In both countries you have a long established corporate-political-military power structure. Maybe 1000 or less families control and own virtually everything. But for some reason, Cambodia is way behind Thailand economically....maybe the result of the "Killing Fields" and the loss of so many intellectuals and skilled people.

I like the people of Cambodia and parts of the country are beautiful. The coastline rivals many parts of Thailand. If only it could get its act together.........maybe it is getting its act together now?

[dumspero]

True, I have never even been to Vietnam or Cambodia, so if that means I can't read about the countries (including reading the views of many who have) and then develop an opinion based on that reading, well, then, you have me there.

But some of us take the radical view that we can formulate rational opinions about something without direct experience. In fact, while direct experience is certainly more valuable in many ways, one could argue that direct experience can cloud one's perspective, particularly where one has a stake in the issue, such as the poster with a business in Cambodia. Maybe he believes Cambodia is more stable than Thailand, and maybe he's even right (after all, these are matters of opinion), but clearly he has an incentive to believe that.

To me, though, I just don't see how Vietnam and Cambodia can skip the difficulties that Thailand and every other country faces as it develops. And Vietnam and Cambodia are decades behind Thailand, so they have many more challenges to face. Cambodia is routinely portrayed as a 'wild west' type place where it's far more the norm to have to pay bribes or have a business just outright taken away. Maybe much of that is exaggerated, but hard to believe the great weight of opinion is entirely off.

I also don't see any threat to an expat's pension in Thailand and don't understand the basis for tht comment.

[kmart]

Cambodia is a depressing bloody awful place, a long way behind Thailand in development and everything else, btw. A country that can go to war on itself and murder roughly 25% of its own population (this is only 30 yrs ago) is a safe destination for foreigners? Right.

[PhilHarries]

And Vietnam and Cambodia are decades behind Thailand

For me that's part of the attraction. Thailand has almost become too westernised unless you get right out in the sticks. I am not one of these people who needs cable/satallite TV, broadband internet access, WiFi, 7/11's etc etc. Those are the things that are nice to have available but I can live quite happily without them (apart from internet access for work).

I said that I don't know about Cambodia. Well thanks to Begbie's informative posting I just learnt a bit and just might mosey on over there in the near future. Thanks Begbie

I still love Thailand though and wherever I lay my hat you can bet your ar5e if it ain't Thailand it won't be more than 2 hours flying time from BKK.

[JR Texas]

Cambodia is a depressing bloody awful place, a long way behind Thailand in development and everything else, btw. A country that can go to war on itself and murder roughly 25% of its own population (this is only 30 yrs ago) is a safe destination for foreigners? Right.

JR Texas: What happened in Cambodia is directly related to US intervention during the Vietnam War. Still, given how kind Cambodians are today (my impression of most of them), it is hard to believe that the "Killing Fields" took place.

But, we need to remember that in the USA, in the 1860s, an internal north-south Civil War took place. And in Thailand today another north-south civil war is taking place.

On a personal note, I lived in Cambodia for a short time. I never felt threatened. But I did not roam around much at night. It is, without question, less developed. But it is growing..........PP has a mall now with Western food imported from Thailand......some ATMs are in the country........there are some very nice hotels to stay at............the ocean is beautiful and the water seemed much cleaner than in Thailand........with any luck and some proper guidance and decision making, it could create a nice alternative to Thailand in Sihanoukville and that city where Angkor Wat is located........but it will take time.

I should state for those that have only been to the border areas, that the border areas are some of the worst places in Cambodia (your impression of Cambodia would be very negative if that is the only place you have been).

One final point: The French were there for many years and taught a lot of people how to cook some good food (e.g., crepes and bread). You can also find other Western food there that rivals Thailand like a decent hamburger. I have never been able to find a decent hamburger anywhere in Thailand.

That said.........Cambodia is not Thailand. I just see a lot of potential there.

[torito]

Cambodia is a depressing bloody awful place, a long way behind Thailand in development and everything else, btw. A country that can go to war on itself and murder roughly 25% of its own population (this is only 30 yrs ago) is a safe destination for foreigners? Right.

You can say also that USA is not a good destination for negros today because of segregation just 30 years ago....things have changed...

The fact is that Cambodia "it is" a destination for foreigners. It is a very poor country and one will not find in there the luxurious places that one can see in Bangkok.....but it will get there.

[kmart]

Agree on some points that JR Texas pointed out above.^^ The food is good in PP due to the French colonial influence, but I never felt safe going anywhere in Cambodia, especially at night; the cops there turn up mob-handed with M16s if there is trouble, and small arms and grenades are rife too.

Kissenger and Nixon's "secret bombing" of Cambodia and Laos helped the insurgency take place, but the horror of the Khmer Rouge years and a stroll through the TS-21 prison lets you know that life is very cheap there...

Its been a few years (5-6) since I last visited, but apparently things are improving there. I hope so.

[uptou]

the feeling i got in cambodia (a few years ago),was that a massive bomb had gone off & everybody was walking around shell shocked.i felt that they have been through so much sh!t,that another death,wouldnt make too much difference. the people were very nice,& i travelled throughout the country with no problems,apart from some horrendous journeys in the back of packed pick up trucks,where tree trunks used as bridges colapsed,& break downs were the norm,but it was interesting.

vietnam was very interesting,as they seem to be more chinese than s.e asian in there ways & work ethic.the women were beautiful,its just a shame that most of them looked at me like they wanted to stab me.i felt a fair bit of nationalism whilst i was there,like they were overly proud,but if anybody deserves to distrust foreiners,its that country.it seemed like one of the most capitalist countries in the world.

[No beleeeeve!]

Yes, Vietnam (VN) is Communist, as is China. VN is also following in Chinas' footsteps by keeping a Communist political system while adopting an open market economy. They can use their communistic protectionist policies to protect their businesses, which are state owned, from foreign competition and thrive.

VN is listed as the second fastest growing economy in Asia behind China. They got accepted to the WTO late last year and will continue to grow although they have a long way to rid themselves of corruption (as does China).

Their stock market is still small but growing. Some say a correction downward will occur this year. You can get into investments through mutual funds and other companies based outside of VN who do business there. Later this year a few of the bigger state owned companies will be doing IPOs of some structure but I'm not sure of the outside access to them.

I know of one company based in the US who has the exclusive contract to register all the .vn website addresses and has deals with over 70 resellers around the world. I don't work for them but I do own some of the stock and will increase my position this year. I also invest in companies in China so I research that part of the world pretty heavily. There are a couple mutual funds in VN that are pink sheeted and are available depending on your broker.

As for opening up a business I have no experience doing so in VN or Cambodia. I lived in Thailand and South Korea and plan on retiring in Thailand.

Not sure how that all fits in here but what the heck.....

[think_too_mut]

Ihave never seen so many toyota landcruisers per capita in any country as cambodia !

The cars are not manufactured there, the LandCrusers came from Japan.

Large number of imported expensive 4WD you saw in Cambodia made you not believe stories and stats about poverty there?

The secret could be - all the UN and other NGOs who were there after Paul Pot, simply dumped the vehicles for a nominal sum instead of taking them back.

If you see pictures from Bosnia, Kosovo....you may also think life is great there since every second car is either LandCruiser, 4 Runner or Nissan Patrol.

[womble]

Ihave never seen so many toyota landcruisers per capita in any country as cambodia !

The cars are not manufactured there, the LandCrusers came from Japan.

Large number of imported expensive 4WD you saw in Cambodia made you not believe stories and stats about poverty there?

The secret could be - all the UN and other NGOs who were there after Paul Pot, simply dumped the vehicles for a nominal sum instead of taking them back.

If you see pictures from Bosnia, Kosovo....you may also think life is great there since every second car is either LandCruiser, 4 Runner or Nissan Patrol.

to me it only shows how crap the roads must be