Thailand On US Copyright Piracy List

[wintermute]

The public protest in Thailand againt "evil america" is only a mask for the greater problem Thailand has regarding copyright.

It's not just drugs.

Thailand has historically been a major producer of knockoff goods from Gucci bags to American cigarette lighters.

In lots of shopping centers in Thailand pirated software and movies from abroad are openly sold for a few dollars. Dispite very public "raids" on a few vendors, the government has never been serious about stamping out this practise.

Using the excuse that "We can't afford it" is no excuse to rip off someones music, movies or programs and copy them sale.

Same goes for drugs.

The problem is that Thailand does not take seriously copyright protection. Even Thais do not like to produce software and educational CD programs for the local market because they fear they will just be ripped off.

The hypocritical thing is that Thais are absolutely draconian in prosecuting those that pirate Thai music or movies however open thievery of foreign IP and patents is ignored or heartily encouraged in some cases.

They really need to be sanctioned every time they pull this crap.

[Scott]

It's always sad to see things like this happen, but it's far from unexpected. I get so tired of the constant counterfeiting of everything and the attitude of it's OK (as long as it isn't ours).

In particular the recent compulsory licensing of pharmacueticals is of concern. Thailand is no longer a poor country who can't afford drugs etc. It can stop just a little bit of the corruption and they would have plenty of money to pay for these things.

I am not making a statement about the pharmacuetical companies because they need to be doing their share. The gov't is in a position to negotiate and substatiate before it uses compulsory licensing. Oh, and as far as I can see, they certainly had very little concern for the poor prior to now. And as for the heart medication--I highly doubt that there is a crisis or epidemic of heart disease and if there is, they might want to look at diet and the types of cooking oils used--oh, wait that might just affect their economic growth.

As for all the DVD's, etc., I just don't understand. I managed to get along for a long time just renting the things! Now everyone has to own one.

I hope the gov't starts acting in a responsible manner and cleaning up its own BS.

[Jai Dee]

Surayud insists to go on with compulsory licensing on Aids medicines

More on this thread.

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

The next rip-off for Pantips pirates. How long before copies of this one start appearing or arfe they already there?

The next billion computer users A US$3 software suite from Microsoft is part of its plans to double the number of computer users

TONY WALTHAM

Microsoft's Emerging Segments Market Development Group senior vice president Orlando Ayala says the company's ambitious programme to bridge the digital divide would involve striking many new partnerships. Students from a village outside Beijing, China, use the Microsoft Student Innovation Suite to study together after school. — Photo courtesy of MICROSOFT

Microsoft aims to double the number of computer users from one to two billion over the next eight years with an aggressive programme aimed to bridge the digital divide, working with governments and other organisations in low-income countries.

At the core of an offering announced in Beijing last month by Microsoft chairman Bill Gates is the Microsoft Student Innovation Software Suite, which will be available to qualifying governments who may purchase and supply it with PCs to students for just US$3 (about 100 baht).

The software, which is expected to be available in December, includes Windows XP Starter Edition and Microsoft Office Home and Student 2007 and is said to be have a value of between $150 and $200. The suite also bundles Microsoft Math 3.0, Learning Essentials 2.0 for Microsoft Office and Windows Live Mail desktop.

Full story here:

http://bangkokpost.com/020507_Database/02May2007_data01.php

Edited May 4, 2007 by ChiangMaiAmerican

[Bottlerocket]

Here's an estimate of the value of the US-Thai relationship:

Thailand

Trade News

In October 2003, President Bush announced his intent to enter into Free Trade Agreement (FTA) negotiations with Thailand. Seven rounds of negotiations were held and good progress was made on the text of all chapters of the FTA, although significant work remains outstanding. Negotiations were put on hold when the Thai Parliament was dissolved in February 2006. Negotiations were then suspended in the wake of the military-led coup in September 2006.

Two-way trade has grown, reaching $30.6 billion in 2006. Thailand is the United States’ 20th largest trading partner.

Trade Data

U.S. goods exports in 2006 were $8.2 billion, up 12.4 percent from the previous year. Corresponding U.S. imports from Thailand were $22.5 billion, up 13 percent. Thailand is currently the 24th largest export market for U.S. goods.

U.S. exports of private commercial services (i.e., excluding military and government) to Thailand were $1.5 billion in 2005 (latest data available), and U.S. imports were $1.1 billion. Sales of services in Thailand by majority U.S.-owned affiliates were $3 billion in 2004 (latest data available), while sales of services in the United States by majority Thailand-owned firms were $3 million.

The stock of U.S. foreign direct investment (FDI) in Thailand in 2005 was $8.6 billion (latest data available), up from $7.6 billion in 2004. U.S. FDI in Thailand is concentrated largely in the manufacturing, finance, professional, scientific, and technical services, and wholesale trade sectors.

[Jai Dee]

Dr Thaksin alleged to meddle behind scene in listing Thailand's IP infringement

The Chairman of the Domestic Public Relations Center (DPRC), Mr. Prasarn Mruigpitak (ประสาร มฤคพิทักษ์), indicates that deposed Prime Minister Thaksin Shinnawatra has been meddling behind scene in the United States Trade Representative (USTR) in listing Thailand as one of “priority watch list” (PWL) and for failing to protect American corporate intellectual property.

The DPRC Chairman said that the cause of Thailand being placed on the PWL may be initiated by Thailand’s Public Health Ministry’s issuance of compulsory license for anti-HIV medicine, which has led to a huge reduction of price of the medicine.

According to the study, it finds Mr. Ken Adelman, the Executive Director of USA for Innovation, as the key person who had submitted documents concerning Thailand's IP to US Foreign Affairs Minister. The documents has led to Thailand being placed on the PWL. Mr. Ken is reportedly the Senior Advisor of Adelman Public Relations, a lobbyist hired by the ex-PM.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 04 May 2007

[pampal]

Those figures may change pretty quickly if the US cut itself off from world trade and put up the barriers. It is unlikely that US workers would suddenly get the desire to work for a buck or two a day in a sudden display of nationalistic bravado, so there would no longer be cheap goods in the US. Consdering the distribution of wealth and lack of social support networks in the US the poor underclass would be in a precarious povision with more expensive goods. How many companies are set up to import and how many Americans do these employ is a another consideration. Then I wonder how all the TNC and MNCs would like a bit of isolation. Most of these could rapidly relocate their HQs. This is all without considering how the US economy is now inextricably tied in with the economies of many other countries. Whilst nationalistic ideals of a cut off and self sufficient society are appealing to many the reality of what modern global trade is, linked to what people are used to means these ideals will remain only dreams becuase if practiced they can rapidly turn into a nightmare even for the current largest economy in the world.

I suppose ordinary Americans hated the days when factories were open and workers were paid a middle class salary. They couldn't stand it when the middle class was expanding and real wages were rising. Of course the MNCs and their CEOs didn't make as much then but ordinary Americans are willing to make continued sacrifices now that the government's promises of a brighter future for all Americans through unilaterally opening America's markets have been proven to create more low paying jobs at Walmart and Target. I suppose ordinary Americans, that is the middle class, would prefer to let developing countries like Thailand dictate terms of trade that will see their jobs disappear (at least jobs that pay a decent wage) and their opportunities to replace that income with a small business or another good paying job greatly limited while the opportunites for the middle class of those countries are expanded at their expense. Good opportunities for ordinary citizens of both countries to grow and develop are not in the best interest of ordinary Americans. Only when the Americans (or Europeans) lose opportunity will they be truely happy and content. I suppose that ordinary Americans will be thrilled at the prospect of working at Walmart (one of the many import related businesses your refer to) for substand wages with no benefits. It makes them feel real ggod inside seeing their homes and savings vanish while being told they are not allowed to particiapte in the benefits of globalzation because they are Americans (or Europeans). The IT workers displaced by outsourcing to India were absolutely estatic when that happened to them especially those that re-educated themselves after losing their factory jobs. Ordinary Americans will be happy that their government did nothing when developing countries like Thailand demanded favorable access to the US market for her middle class small businesses while closing or limiting access to the their markets for middle class Americans. I am sure Eurpoeans will be thrilled at that prospect too. Yes, Americans don't want to see trade, they only want to see imports increase and their opportuities to make money in the global economy disappear. It makes them sleep better at night.

Don't forget that China and Japan are financing America's import spree by being the biggest buyers and holders of American T-bills, and if they were to liquidate their holdings, the Dollar would slip down even further in value. So it's a trade off, yes America is importing vast amounts of goods from China, but the Chinese are helping pay for it by buying American T-bills, which artificially helps keep the value of the US dollar from slipping down even further. In real terms, America's ability to retain manufacturing jobs is dismal, but that's the reality of capitalism. If you cannot compete, your jobs will perish.

It' indeed Ironic that a communist country is playing the capitalism game smarter than a long established capitalist country.

Edited May 4, 2007 by pampal

[Jimi007]

Have you ever tried to buy an American made product in Thailand? Did you wonder why it is almost twice the price as it would be to buy the same product in America? Everyone thinks it's great that American companies develop wonderful new products that everyone wants and then copy them. It's about time the USA took steps against unfair trade!

[nick2k]

Those figures may change pretty quickly if the US cut itself off from world trade and put up the barriers. It is unlikely that US workers would suddenly get the desire to work for a buck or two a day in a sudden display of nationalistic bravado, so there would no longer be cheap goods in the US. Consdering the distribution of wealth and lack of social support networks in the US the poor underclass would be in a precarious povision with more expensive goods. How many companies are set up to import and how many Americans do these employ is a another consideration. Then I wonder how all the TNC and MNCs would like a bit of isolation. Most of these could rapidly relocate their HQs. This is all without considering how the US economy is now inextricably tied in with the economies of many other countries. Whilst nationalistic ideals of a cut off and self sufficient society are appealing to many the reality of what modern global trade is, linked to what people are used to means these ideals will remain only dreams becuase if practiced they can rapidly turn into a nightmare even for the current largest economy in the world.

I suppose ordinary Americans hated the days when factories were open and workers were paid a middle class salary. They couldn't stand it when the middle class was expanding and real wages were rising. Of course the MNCs and their CEOs didn't make as much then but ordinary Americans are willing to make continued sacrifices now that the government's promises of a brighter future for all Americans through unilaterally opening America's markets have been proven to create more low paying jobs at Walmart and Target. I suppose ordinary Americans, that is the middle class, would prefer to let developing countries like Thailand dictate terms of trade that will see their jobs disappear (at least jobs that pay a decent wage) and their opportunities to replace that income with a small business or another good paying job greatly limited while the opportunites for the middle class of those countries are expanded at their expense. Good opportunities for ordinary citizens of both countries to grow and develop are not in the best interest of ordinary Americans. Only when the Americans (or Europeans) lose opportunity will they be truely happy and content. I suppose that ordinary Americans will be thrilled at the prospect of working at Walmart (one of the many import related businesses your refer to) for substand wages with no benefits. It makes them feel real ggod inside seeing their homes and savings vanish while being told they are not allowed to particiapte in the benefits of globalzation because they are Americans (or Europeans). The IT workers displaced by outsourcing to India were absolutely estatic when that happened to them especially those that re-educated themselves after losing their factory jobs. Ordinary Americans will be happy that their government did nothing when developing countries like Thailand demanded favorable access to the US market for her middle class small businesses while closing or limiting access to the their markets for middle class Americans. I am sure Eurpoeans will be thrilled at that prospect too. Yes, Americans don't want to see trade, they only want to see imports increase and their opportuities to make money in the global economy disappear. It makes them sleep better at night.

Don't forget that China and Japan are financing America's import spree by being the biggest buyers and holders of American T-bills, and if they were to liquidate their holdings, the Dollar would slip down even further in value. So it's a trade off, yes America is importing vast amounts of goods from China, but the Chinese are helping pay for it by buying American T-bills, which artificially helps keep the value of the US dollar from slipping down even further. In real terms, America's ability to retain manufacturing jobs is dismal, but that's the reality of capitalism. If you cannot compete, your jobs will perish.

It' indeed Ironic that a communist country is playing the capitalism game smarter than a long established capitalist country.

I agree with you. there is a problem in the america at the moment. the leaders in my country be them in the government or the corporate world are idiots. total idiots. ..but that can be changed.

america is one of those few countries in this world that can survive on their own. we don't need china, or any other country for that matter.

the only reason why china is doing better than america right is because they are not playing fair. the idea is to benefit both countries. but china hasn't gotten that idea in their head. so, I think it is better to back out now. after losing over 3 million jobs to overseas, I think it is time to recognize the error in globalization.

stupid people like gates and buffet will be remembered as the guys who speeded up the global warming effect. idiots.

[Bottlerocket]

The fact that Thailand is no longer a third world country and has the money to pay for the medicine but won't, (in fact refuses to while hiding behind the false "we're poor and the US is so rich and selfish and gluttonous" argument) just proves what everybody already knows. Thailand doesn't give a rat's willy about people in their country with AIDS. This is a slap in the face and I hope the US slaps 'em right back.

[Johpa]

america is one of those few countries in this world that can survive on their own. we don't need china, or any other country for that matter.

the only reason why china is doing better than america right is because they are not playing fair. the idea is to benefit both countries. but china hasn't gotten that idea in their head. so, I think it is better to back out now. after losing over 3 million jobs to overseas, I think it is time to recognize the error in globalization.

stupid people like gates and buffet will be remembered as the guys who speeded up the global warming effect. idiots.

I doubt the US can afford to survive on its own. The economic structure in the US is so far out of balance that my country currently no longer can afford to properly maintain the public infrastucture or the public education systems. Just imagine the inflation if Walmart was not able to sell inexpensive, poor quality, basic products to the masses such as clothing. In addition, imagine the inflationary effects of petrol selling in the US for the same price as it sells in most of the world. And then imagine Thailand without a Farang focused tourist industry.

Gates and Buffet are symptoms of the economic structure being out of whack, not the cause. At least they spend some of their extreme wealth on projects that benefit the public good. Compare that to those other equally wealthy folks who are spending their fortunes on space exploration or on private yachts the size of battleships.

As for global warming, watch the PRC where the environment is still but an afterthought. If there is to be another Bhopal, it will likely be in China, that is if they don't run out of drinkable water first.

If the US tries to go it alone it would fail and take down the rest of the globe with it. I would not want to be there to witness the jostling for the economic realignment of the planet. I doubt even those in their gated communities who will be hiring the Samurai-for-hire, no longer needed in Iraq, from Blackwater would be safe.

[nick2k]

america is one of those few countries in this world that can survive on their own. we don't need china, or any other country for that matter.

the only reason why china is doing better than america right is because they are not playing fair. the idea is to benefit both countries. but china hasn't gotten that idea in their head. so, I think it is better to back out now. after losing over 3 million jobs to overseas, I think it is time to recognize the error in globalization.

stupid people like gates and buffet will be remembered as the guys who speeded up the global warming effect. idiots.

I doubt the US can afford to survive on its own. The economic structure in the US is so far out of balance that my country currently no longer can afford to properly maintain the public infrastucture or the public education systems. Just imagine the inflation if Walmart was not able to sell inexpensive, poor quality, basic products to the masses such as clothing. In addition, imagine the inflationary effects of petrol selling in the US for the same price as it sells in most of the world. And then imagine Thailand without a Farang focused tourist industry.

Gates and Buffet are symptoms of the economic structure being out of whack, not the cause. At least they spend some of their extreme wealth on projects that benefit the public good. Compare that to those other equally wealthy folks who are spending their fortunes on space exploration or on private yachts the size of battleships.

As for global warming, watch the PRC where the environment is still but an afterthought. If there is to be another Bhopal, it will likely be in China, that is if they don't run out of drinkable water first.

If the US tries to go it alone it would fail and take down the rest of the globe with it. I would not want to be there to witness the jostling for the economic realignment of the planet. I doubt even those in their gated communities who will be hiring the Samurai-for-hire, no longer needed in Iraq, from Blackwater would be safe.

evidently you don't know america. the country is about the size of china but with only a quarter of the number of people. we have everything that we need to survive on our own. we don't need anybody else. america is blessed with an ocean on each side. and we have the technology to grow food for more than all the people in our country. so why do you think we can't survive alone?

why, just in the state of colorado, I read that there is a store of oil there equal to 3 times the total amount in the whole world.

do you think we need friends who look at us like invaders? who steal from us at every chance? who blame us for everything that happens in the world?

you really have no idea about america, do you?

[endure]

why, just in the state of colorado, I read that there is a store of oil there equal to 3 times the total amount in the whole world.

I think you ought to read that again then go back and complain to the people who wrote it.

[LaoPo]

america is one of those few countries in this world that can survive on their own. we don't need china, or any other country for that matter.

Really ?

So, if I understand you well you want the US to close it's doors, wether import or export and survive on it's own...?

Is that what you're saying ? If so....keep on dreaming Sir.

When you wake up your worst nightmare just happened.

LaoPo

[nick2k]

why, just in the state of colorado, I read that there is a store of oil there equal to 3 times the total amount in the whole world.

I think you ought to read that again then go back and complain to the people who wrote it.

it's true whether you want to believe me or not.

changing the subject...

I just read this article in the online bangkok post, some thai guy said that the usa cannot retaliate against thailand for stealing the drugs. something about the world trade organization won't allow it.

my answer to that is - 1) the usa doesn't have a free trade agreement with thailand., and 2) if the usa doesn't want to sell any drugs to thailand, they don't have to. in fact, if the usa wants to place tariffs on any goods that thailand wants to export to the usa, they can. that is what thailand is doing to goods imported into thailand from the usa. have you checked out how much spam costs here? outrageous.

[nick2k]

america is one of those few countries in this world that can survive on their own. we don't need china, or any other country for that matter.

Really ?

So, if I understand you well you want the US to close it's doors, wether import or export and survive on it's own...?

Is that what you're saying ? If so....keep on dreaming Sir.

When you wake up your worst nightmare just happened.

LaoPo

china for over 30 years survived on their own. as did north korea. and they have less resources than the usa. so, what makes you think the usa can't do it if they wanted to? ..your crystal ball?

if you think it is not possible for the usa to survive on their own, then, what hope does thailand have with their special program of self sufficiency? I can see - you have very little respect for the usa.

[LaoPo]

china for over 30 years survived on their own. as did north korea. and they have less resources than the usa. so, what makes you think the usa can't do it if they wanted to? ..your crystal ball?

if you think it is not possible for the usa to survive on their own, then, what hope does thailand have with their special program of self sufficiency? I can see - you have very little respect for the usa.

First of all, please don't make this topic a personal one about the USA.

Apart from that you really should study history a bit more, about China and the USA. China survived for the last 30 years on it's own?

And, about the survival of the US, on it's own, I suggest you go to the nearest important University in the US and ask to have a discussion about that particular topic with the Professor of economics and his/her students...they will tell you all about it IF the USA could survive on it's own or not. You will be surprised by the answers.

And, about my respect for the US....please don't tell me wether I respect the USA or not since it's not the point here. I don't have respect for the present administration but that has nothing to do with having respect for the US or not in general.

But, since we're talking respect here, it looks like you have no respect whatsoever for the rest of the world, apart from your own country of course...

Let's get back on topic:

"Thailand On US Copyright Piracy List"

LaoPo

[nick2k]

china for over 30 years survived on their own. as did north korea. and they have less resources than the usa. so, what makes you think the usa can't do it if they wanted to? ..your crystal ball?

if you think it is not possible for the usa to survive on their own, then, what hope does thailand have with their special program of self sufficiency? I can see - you have very little respect for the usa.

First of all, please don't make this topic a personal one about the USA.

Apart from that you really should study history a bit more, about China and the USA. China survived for the last 30 years on it's own?

And, about the survival of the US, on it's own, I suggest you go to the nearest important University in the US and ask to have a discussion about that particular topic with the Professor of economics and his/her students...they will tell you all about it IF the USA could survive on it's own or not. You will be surprised by the answers.

And, about my respect for the US....please don't tell me wether I respect the USA or not since it's not the point here. I don't have respect for the present administration but that has nothing to do with having respect for the US or not in general.

But, since we're talking respect here, it looks like you have no respect whatsoever for the rest of the world, apart from your own country of course...

Let's get back on topic:

"Thailand On US Copyright Piracy List"

LaoPo

from 1949 to 1979, china lived in seclusion all by itself closed off from the world. I did not say the LAST 30 years. frankly, if it wasn't for nixon, china would probably still be in the dark ages. they were lucky to have tung xiao ping.

as for asking any professor about america's capabilities, what is this? grade school?

I was born in america, and all americans know our farms can supply all americans with food. we have so much food, we throw a lot of it away each year. one report says we could supply the entire world with food. that's how much there is.

as for oil, according to many reports, we have half the oil shale reserves in the whole world. with estimates saying we could survive for over 100 years on what we have.

with so much food and oil, if need be, america can go it alone. but of course, we would probably stick it out with our TRUE friends. - - who don't steal from us.

as for respect for others, I can safely say I have more for others then you have for the usa. all you need to do is read the postings on this forum to figure that out.

yes, we have a large debt right now. that was caused by our trading partners and their unfair trading practices. but that can be remedied very quickly with the stroke of a pen. debt is just a promise, you know. I fully expect thailand to someday nationalize foreign companies. this warp thinking of theirs with the drugs is just the beginning. the coup leaders think just like chavez.

why pay when you can take?

[OlRedEyes]

Piracy is wrong, but the big corporations have to lower their prices to realistic lewels in the poorer countries of the world, how many Thais could afford to buy their products if they where priced normal.

<snipped drivel>

So what. Is it a basic human right too?

Take away incentive to research, create and innovate, and there will be NO progress. Including medicine.

[TAWP]

Quite sure the CDs and DVDs downtown contain movies and music, not medicin, and you will find that they don't require much R&D.

[Pepe']

Thailand being involved in copyright piracy or any theft of intellectual properties is just another urban legend...

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

why, just in the state of colorado, I read that there is a store of oil there equal to 3 times the total amount in the whole world.

I think you ought to read that again then go back and complain to the people who wrote it.

He is correct about the oil found in certain shale rock in Colorado. However there is another source he didn't mention that is readily available and economically viable in today's market. The US has the largest coal reserves in the world. Russia is number 2. The coal reserves and the US are projected to last over 200 years. Both the US and Russia have a little less than half of the world's coal. At current market prices it is economically viable to convert coal to liquid using the Fischer-Tropsch method developed in Germany in the 1920s and further refined by the South African company Sasol. Beginning in the 1950s South Africa put a lot of effort into improving Fischer-Tropsch. They correctly feared an economic embargo because of apartheid. Today half of South Africa's fuel come from FT liquids. According to a study by the US DOE, FT fuels can be made on a break even basis when crude reaches $37 a barrell. We haven seen $37 a barrel crude in a while. As a consequesnce a number of FT conversion plans are under construction in the US but won't be online for 1 to 2 more years.

Further, the development of the hydrogen fuel cell will reduce the demand for fuel since they convert energy at over twice the efficiency as internal or external combustion engines. They fuel cells exist now but are expensive due to the use of platnium metals as the catalyst for the conversion process. When the cost fuel cells is reduced, the OPEC countries will be drinking their oil since the market demand will drop by half and other alternatives for hydrogen such as the intermediate step in FT conversion will be viable.

If the US decided to increase tarriffs or restrict trade she could survive and after a period of adjustment provide a quality life for her citizens. The biggest losers under such a scheme would be the MNCs. The US does not have to accept piracy or unfair trade conditions from Thailand or any other nation on earth. They existed before under the 5theory that demonstratig the benefits of trade to developing countries would be met with an opening of markets. This isn't happening. Developing countries like Thailand are closing their markets and are rationalizing the theft of everything from software to medicine. At the same thime they are demanding that the US keep her markets open for goods and services produced in their countries. There is nothing the US must have from these countries. The only reason the trade problems and piracy have accelerated is the current president's economic policies. He has no concern for ordinary Americans. Until recently he refused to initiate WTO complaints or take other action to try and balance the situation. If his friends and associates are making money then all is well. With the change in Washington last November, his policies will no longer go unchallenged.

Edited May 6, 2007 by ChiangMaiAmerican

[Mid]

guys , the genie IS out of the bottle ,

we live on a global village now .....................................

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

guys , the genie IS out of the bottle ,

we live on a global village now .....................................

I don't disagree. However, open markets means everyone not just he US opneing her markets without full reciprocity. The US ecomony has shiffted from a manuafcturing economy to a knowledge and innovation economy. Innovation costs money. Individuals and companies who invest in creating new products deserve to be well compensated. If countries like Thailand are allowed to freely appropriate the fruits of that innovation on any terms they choose the US no longer has a product to sell on the world market. Ditto for much of Europe, Japan and Canada though the US does lead the world on innovation and is now more dependent on the income from those efforts.

[Mid]

guys , the genie IS out of the bottle ,

we live on a global village now .....................................

I don't disagree. However, open markets means everyone not just he US opneing her markets without full reciprocity. The US ecomony has shiffted from a manuafcturing economy to a knowledge and innovation economy. Innovation costs money. Individuals and companies who invest in creating new products deserve to be well compensated. If countries like Thailand are allowed to freely appropriate the fruits of that innovation on any terms they choose the US no longer has a product to sell on the world market. Ditto for much of Europe, Japan and Canada though the US does lead the world on innovation and is now more dependent on the income from those efforts.

thanxs for the well reasoned reply , I suspect that we are all looking for the middle ground ,

you've said a mouthful above and it's well beyond the scope of this thread to debate all your points ,

for instance just five short words in we have the first stumbling block , to wit open markets

not much further and up crops innovation , and thus leading to the debate as to whether the US does in fact have any products to sell on the world market ??

accepting that you do have saleable products we move on to the issue of price .................

now price will be interesting , especially when related to food ( remember food , your buying your needs as an innovation economy ) ,

I'm sure that I've painted enough of the picture for you to reason the rest ............

mid

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

guys , the genie IS out of the bottle ,

we live on a global village now .....................................

I don't disagree. However, open markets means everyone not just he US opneing her markets without full reciprocity. The US ecomony has shiffted from a manuafcturing economy to a knowledge and innovation economy. Innovation costs money. Individuals and companies who invest in creating new products deserve to be well compensated. If countries like Thailand are allowed to freely appropriate the fruits of that innovation on any terms they choose the US no longer has a product to sell on the world market. Ditto for much of Europe, Japan and Canada though the US does lead the world on innovation and is now more dependent on the income from those efforts.

thanxs for the well reasoned reply , I suspect that we are all looking for the middle ground ,

you've said a mouthful above and it's well beyond the scope of this thread to debate all your points ,

for instance just five short words in we have the first stumbling block , to wit open markets

not much further and up crops innovation , and thus leading to the debate as to whether the US does in fact have any products to sell on the world market ??

accepting that you do have saleable products we move on to the issue of price .................

now price will be interesting , especially when related to food ( remember food , your buying your needs as an innovation economy ) ,

I'm sure that I've painted enough of the picture for you to reason the rest ............

mid

There is a great falacy in Oxfam and siimilar organizations claims that removal of subsidies would improve the life for small farmers. Only if the US and other developed countries removed the subsidies while continuing to allow cother countries to close their markets would this scheme work. The US produces a vast surplus of food. With the exception of organic farmers, small farmers no longer exist in the US. Even removing the subsidies, the economies of scale the corporate farmers enjoy will beat the small farmer pricing. The only crops that would likely be competitive with those of small farmers in developing countries would be those with low profit margins. The US for example has the ability to out produce the world in rice but the profit margin is low. Even with the low profit margin the US remains a net rice exporter.The primary reason rice farms exist is because the land is not suitable for other purposes. Drain and fill is not easily done in the US.

Then there is the problem with food safety. In case you didn't notice Chinese companies have been spiking gluten with melamine and other chemicals to make it appear to have a higher protein content. This was discovered after pets started dying and was after investigation found to be a wide spread practice. It would have likely gone undetected were it not for some enterprising Chinese manufacturer mixing melamine with cyanuric acid, another chemical that also makes the protein content appear higher. The two chemicals together appear to form crystals in the urine. Kidney failure is what was killing the pets. Some of the spiked food has indirectly entered the US food supply. Now that they are looking for it, melamine spiked glutten from China has been found in several other countires too. I wonder how much spiked gluten from China has entered Thailand's food supply. Many vegetarian meat substitutes are made from gluten and many Thais eat vegetarian food on a regular basis. Of course poor developing countires like China need the extra profit from making their product appear to have a higher protein content. The extra profit helps lift farmers out of poverty. People should just eat it and shut up.

Edited May 6, 2007 by ChiangMaiAmerican

[Johpa]

guys , the genie IS out of the bottle ,

we live on a global village now .....................................

I don't disagree. However, open markets means everyone not just he US opneing her markets without full reciprocity. The US ecomony has shiffted from a manuafcturing economy to a knowledge and innovation economy. Innovation costs money. Individuals and companies who invest in creating new products deserve to be well compensated. If countries like Thailand are allowed to freely appropriate the fruits of that innovation on any terms they choose the US no longer has a product to sell on the world market. Ditto for much of Europe, Japan and Canada though the US does lead the world on innovation and is now more dependent on the income from those efforts.

I am sure there was some New World caveman pretty upset when he saw the neighbors using his Clovis point or some Salutrean complaining about borrowings by some proto-Celt using his innovation. I'm just not sure that anything can prevent diffusion of ideas across borders and I am not sure, in the long term, whether one can hope to base an economy on such a premise. To paraphrase a great observer of the capitalist system, you had better retain control of the means of production.

There is no proven track record that ideas can serve as commodities for barter. Despite pleas to the contrary, it is yet to be seen that "knowledge" can be bought and sold and protected in the same way as tangible property or valued in the same manner. The individuals and companies who invest in creating new products don't deserve anything. They can certainly earn something, but isn't that up to the "market" to determine?

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

I am sure there was some New World caveman pretty upset when he saw the neighbors using his Clovis point or some Salutrean complaining about borrowings by some proto-Celt using his innovation. I'm just not sure that anything can prevent diffusion of ideas across borders and I am not sure, in the long term, whether one can hope to base an economy on such a premise. To paraphrase a great observer of the capitalist system, you had better retain control of the means of production.

There is no proven track record that ideas can serve as commodities for barter. Despite pleas to the contrary, it is yet to be seen that "knowledge" can be bought and sold and protected in the same way as tangible property or valued in the same manner. The individuals and companies who invest in creating new products don't deserve anything. They can certainly earn something, but isn't that up to the "market" to determine?

Under those conditions the US and other developed countries better start raising tarriffs and reopening factories. With no reward for R&D and only income from the sale of products anyone can freely copy, that kind of protection will be needed to maintain the ecomomy otherwise, as you would probably prefer, the citizens of those countries will see their lifestyles rapidly decline as their economy crumbles.

Edited May 6, 2007 by ChiangMaiAmerican

[Mid]

something about a better mousetrap ......................................

[Johpa]

I am sure there was some New World caveman pretty upset when he saw the neighbors using his Clovis point or some Salutrean complaining about borrowings by some proto-Celt using his innovation. I'm just not sure that anything can prevent diffusion of ideas across borders and I am not sure, in the long term, whether one can hope to base an economy on such a premise. To paraphrase a great observer of the capitalist system, you had better retain control of the means of production.

There is no proven track record that ideas can serve as commodities for barter. Despite pleas to the contrary, it is yet to be seen that "knowledge" can be bought and sold and protected in the same way as tangible property or valued in the same manner. The individuals and companies who invest in creating new products don't deserve anything. They can certainly earn something, but isn't that up to the "market" to determine?

Under those conditions the US and other developed countries better start raising tarriffs and reopening factories. With no reward for R&D and only income from the sale of products anyone can freely copy, that kind of protection will be needed to maintain the ecomomy otherwise, as you would probably prefer, the citizens of those countries will see their lifestyles rapidly decline as their economy crumbles.

I didn't mean to imply that there is no reward for innovation, only that the amount of the reward would be ultimately determined by the "market", both to the degree of reward and to the duration of the receiving of the reward. If a company prices the product or the service too high, then eventually someone, if possible, will obtain the means of production and will offer the same thing at a lower price and no amount of "legal" protection will prevent that from occuring.

I am only making observations and not stating preferences. A further observation is that lifestyles in places like the US and the UK are already in a slow decline as "globalization" slowly equalizes many national economies across the planet. I also observe some very modest gains in material aspects of "lifestyle" in the poorer countries like Thailand that have become more connected to the global market over the past several decades. A rapid decline into chaos is not a preference but a fear.