how to check changeover switch

[Susco]

I have 2 ceiling fans on the patio, which are controlled by a changeover switch inside the house. One in livingroom and one in bedroom.

 

Out of the blue they have stopped working.

 

I'm measuring between live and the white wire, Live and neutral and Neutral and white wire, at each switch

 

Depending on the position of the switches I measure on each of those connections, 0 - 110 or 210V.

 

Is this normal or does this indicates an issue?

[bankruatsteve]

Changeover switch?  Can you post a photo of the switch showing the terminals and note what wires go where.

[Susco]

A changeover switch, maybe also called a 2 way switch, is where you can switch on/off an appliance at 2 locations.

 

Sorry I don't have a picture. At the top are 2 connections ( Live and white wire) neutral is at the bottom

[bankruatsteve]

If neutral is connected to the switch, something is wrong and you would be tripping the breaker.  That is called a 3-way switch in the states because there are 3 terminals on each (or should be).  So, things used to work and now it doesn't?  Each of the two switches should turn on/off both the fans - yes or no?  

 

Here's a snip of how to wire.

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by bankruatsteve

[Susco]

4 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

If neutral is connected to the switch, something is wrong and you would be tripping the breaker.

It has been working for 8 years, and I didn't change any wires

 

[bankruatsteve]

OK.  Note that N is just going to the light and not to the switch.  Check for loose connection.  Can you test if there is voltage at the fan when you turn the switch one way versus the other?

[Susco]

5 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

OK.  Note that N is just going to the light and not to the switch.  Check for loose connection.  Can you test if there is voltage at the fan when you turn the switch one way versus the other?

That is just the problem, there is no access to the fans without cutting a hole in the ceiling, so I can not measure there.

 

Maybe it is wired as below, but I'm not an electrician, so I don't know.

 

 

I also have no wiring plan, so you think if i get an electrician in, he will find where the issue is if there isn't any voltage at the fan, or should I just forget the switch and connect the fans to a source that is always live in that area?

 

The fans are remote controlled, the switch only provides power to the receiver

[Susco]

I found with which breaker they are controlled, and there are 2 more switches to lights on in that location on that breaker which work.

 

Does the 110 / 210 V depending on the switch position tells you someting?

[bankruatsteve]

That's another way of wiring but your first diagram is the usual way.  If you have one of those neon screwdrivers that test for voltage, just put it at the bottom of the fan - it should pick up anything there.  Are you sure the remote is OK?

[bankruatsteve]

4 minutes ago, Susco said:

Does the 110 / 210 V depending on the switch position tells you someting?

Voltage reading at a switch that is only switching Live is not telling you anything if testing between the switch terminals.  Do you have a neutral or ground near the switch?  Then you can test between that and the terminals on the switch to see if you are getting 220v or so on 2 of the 3 terminals.

 

But wait.  Why the remote if the switches are used to turn on/off?  

Edited October 12, 2020 by bankruatsteve

[Susco]

Now here comes the interesting thing. There is another switch on the breaker that controls the front side lights of the patio.

 

3 from the 9 lights didn't work for quite a while.

 

I just replace the 3 faulty bulbs with 3 working ones, and the fans work again.

 

Any idea?

[Crossy]

The locals are always telling us "Thai electric not same farang electric", evidently they are correct.

 

Do any of the new lamps glow when the fans are on?

 

Or do the new lamps do anything odd when the fan switches are operated?

 

Looks like something is finding a return path through one of the lamps, maybe. Do the fans stop working if you take out the new lamps? Replace them one at a time.

[bankruatsteve]

29 minutes ago, Susco said:

The fans are remote controlled, the switch only provides power to the receiver

Do you have access to the receiver?

[Susco]

Unfortunately electrics were done by a farang.

 

I have tried many combinations, the lights don't behave strange.

 

I have even replaced the working bulbs again with the faulty ones, and fans still work

[Susco]

2 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

Do you have access to the receiver?

No receiver is above the ceiling, but they are working now.

 

Please see post #11

[bankruatsteve]

Replacing a light bulb shouldn't "fix" anything else.  Could there be issue with rats in the ceiling?  

[Susco]

I don't know, now the breaker starts tripping, which has never happened before.

 

Guess I have to take those 3 lights apart to see if can notice something

[bankruatsteve]

9 minutes ago, Susco said:

now the breaker starts tripping,

Is that from overcurrent or RCD?  Immediate after turning something on - or after a while?  Any "electric" smell?  Hear any sparking noise?  Again, there might be something going on in the ceiling - any access at all?

[Crossy]

Curiouser and curiouser!

 

I suspect @bankruatsteve is on to something, wildlife in the roof space ???? 

 

[Susco]

All wires are in flexible steel tubing.

 

The breaker ( MCB ) trip seems to have been caused by the perimeter wall light switch, which was switched on by mistake

 

I have removed all the perimeter lights, but the switch is still there, and the wires are still in the wall, and I think there might be water in there.

 

Strange though, as going by the labels in the control unit, the perimeter lights are on a different breaker.

 

I closed the perimeter light switch and now the breaker doesn't trip anymore

 

Edit. Just checked and that perimeter wall switch get powered from the same breaker

Edited October 12, 2020 by Susco

[Crossy]

56 minutes ago, Susco said:

I closed the perimeter light switch and now the breaker doesn't trip anymore

 

I would remove and insulate the wire going outside from the back of the switch so you don't get the same issue again. If you can isolate the neutral that fed the outside lights too that would remove another potential tripping point (N-E fault).

 

Still doesn't explain the fans though.

 

[Susco]

2 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

I would remove and insulate the wire going outside from the back of the switch so you don't get the same issue again. If you can isolate the neutral that fed the outside lights too that would remove another potential tripping point (N-E fault).

 

Still doesn't explain the fans though.

 

With isolate the neutral, does that also mean at the switch side?

 

The fans is a mystery to me also, I have been trying since last night, and again today before I took the wall switches apart, so must have pressed every switch 20 times at least. Changed batteries in both remotes, though the are programmed that each remote works on both fans, and I couldn't get them to work.

 

When I changed the bulbs I tried one more time, although I had given up already, and they worked and still work as I'm writing this

[Crossy]

1 hour ago, Susco said:

With isolate the neutral, does that also mean at the switch side?

 

It really depends how the wiring is routed, if it goes through the switch box then there would be good.

[Susco]

3 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

It really depends how the wiring is routed, if it goes through the switch box then there would be good.

Call me dumb, but switch box is breaker box ( consumer unit) ?

 

The perimeter wall switch is not two way, so there are only 2 wires, but perimeter wall and patio lights/fans are on the same breaker.

 

When I open breaker, perimeter wall switch has no live anymore

[Susco]

There continue to be issues with the fans.

 

Both fans have a receiver, which responds to a remote with configurable frequency. Both receivers and remotes are set to the same frequency.

 

Fans were working, but after a few hours they don't work anymore. After long playing with the remote they start working again, but only on 1 remote.

 

Though both fans work, so I assume the issue must be with the remote and not the receivers, otherwise 1 fan would work and the other not.

 

Then at one point the second remote also start working, and I can then switch on and off with both remotes as many times as I want.

 

When I shut the fans for an hour or so, it's the same all over again.

 

Is there any way I can test the remotes? Like I said, I have no access to the receivers.

 

Are there any replacement remotes available that have a learning function?

 

Do all fans with such a configurable frequency send the same frequency when setting the numbers in the same order?

 

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by Susco

[Crossy]

Dumb question, have you replaced the batteries in the remotes?

 

A trip to your local Amorn may net you a replacement remote or something suitable.

 

We have two fans with radio (not IR) remotes, when one controller stopped functioning I simply connected the fan directly to the (switched) supply, it works fine just on max speed at all times.

[Susco]

3 hours ago, Crossy said:

Dumb question, have you replaced the batteries in the remotes?

 

A trip to your local Amorn may net you a replacement remote or something suitable.

 

We have two fans with radio (not IR) remotes, when one controller stopped functioning I simply connected the fan directly to the (switched) supply, it works fine just on max speed at all times.

Ham yes I replaced the batteries, mine are also radio-controlled remotes, and since I can't access the receivers connecting directly is not an option.

 

This morning the remote that usually struggles the most to function, works from first try, the other one doesn't work.

 

Will try to find the manufacturer and inquire about remote

[bankruatsteve]

If you can get the fans working with the remote, maybe put the remote in a drawer and just use the switches?