Thai Millitary Conscription Question

[greenwanderer108]

So, I should be about a week away from finally having my long awaited Thai house regestration and ID card...a process that I've been enduring off and on with the Proving Nationality division of the Thai Immigration police for nearly six years now...central government checks/varification is finalised and after a complimentary bottle of Black to the officer, should be on my way to the tesabaln and amphur next week...knock on wood

Hooray ! Well...not exactly...dun dun dun...next big worry, the millitary conscription.. Yes, I've read many insightful posts and articles on the subject...of which Samran seems to be the most confident in (as usual for the dual national topics) and seems to be pretty right on with the written law as so I can see. Well anyway, at 24 years old, I have found a grain of hope in the written laws that might save me... It's regarding the 'naturalised citizen' exemption.

Well according to the second Muuwut, Maathra 14, item number 8, of the Millitary Conscription act of 2497 b.e./1954 c.e. (forgive my shit-to-do unofficial translations of law terms, if anyone wants to make them correct english instead of thaiglit, please do) which was ammended in 1972,

Any person who got Thai nationality by แปลงสัญชาติ (Bplaeng Sunchaat) is only required to register for reserve duty account-list, not for the conscription ball out of the hat deal for active duty....which they would be saved from active military unless of a national emergency.

I'm just hoping that my case will be able to be interpreted from the poo yai's to fit that exemption. Now I know, samran has argued in the past that I was Thai by birth according to law and virture, etc. etc. but that I'm actually only proving it and registering now, and that I wasn't in the Thai books ever before, than perhaps I can be considered 'naturalised' or so I very hope in this case.

BTW, the whole thing about 'being in university' seems pretty selective to specific religious and ministry programs. I couldn't find in the law any exemption for 'just studying at whatever university' but i didn't read the whole law completely...so can you clarify or point to the law section where I can delay conscription untill graduation, etc.

For reference, please review the official law (in Thai) for Thai millitary conscription here:

http://www.kodmhai.com/m4/m4-15/H24/H-24.html

For quick reference to my question/concern, full exceptions to the conscription are in Muuwut 2, Maathra 13...while partial exceptions (reserves but not active) are in Maathra 14... If I seemed to misinterpret the law wrong or right, please elaborate more, or if I missed something important in another section too...

This will prove valuable in not only my case, but many others in similar situation.

Thanks again board !

[samran]

greeny,

what documents are you going to receive from the boys in brown? Is it going to be some sort of document which simply confirms your nationailty, or something else?

[greenwanderer108]

Not sure exactly what documents, but it could possibly include something from their accumulated folder of me which includes everything from police background check, DNA test certificate, varified authenticated birth (me and mom) / death (mom's) and various other puzzle piece documents, though he only accepted (MFA stamped) copies and told me I might need to show the originals during house regestration step.

I imagine / assume it will be some sealed signed official order from the appropriate minister (the final central government step which has taken seven months so far since I submitted DNA test) varifying that I have legally 'proved' my right to nationality as the department is specifically called 'พิสูจน์สัญชาติ' as opposed to แปลงสัญชาติ, but I believe this particular department (or two desk office is what it really is) deals with all nationality cases in question, atleast ones filed via immigration police instead of via ministry directly (which might require connections) So, I'm hoping really that my case will be seen, atleast to the Tesabahn as a Naturalisation type, since I've never been in the Thai records or resided in Thailand as a minor, etc. untill the day they interview me for house regestration...Ofcourse if what the central big shlong gives me turns out to b a 'belated-issued' Thai birth certificate, I might have lost my cause to fall under the naturalization category...

Not sure exactly, Kreng Jai to ask details on the phone of what particular documents I will be recieving, but he just told us to prepare a bottle of black (a relief he wasn't requesting an envelope!!!) to get the documents for the next and final step which is a the presentation of the documents (order) to Tesabaln with my Thai aunt and her house regestration and a final สอบปากคำ session, which would idealy proceed on to house regestration...knock on wood...

My biggest fear is that I'll be walking into a special trap where they will ship me off to the south...or worse, Iraq to be some translator/colaborator for the Gong Tup there! It's kinda scary because I think I'll be required to submit my passport for them to make the proper ammendments to my visa (according to the big guy, I won't have to do the yearly renewal like other duals who had it from the start) where it'll be returned with the Thai visa information voided...

Hey, I understand that as a Thai citizen, the Nation ชาติ comes before all, but I think when that value was made so significant, there were bigger 'national' threats at question whether it be neighbor soverignty or colonial pressure, at a time when most of the masses weren't freely educated and exposed...this is now...and the the confliclt in Southern Thailand hold about as much value to my identity and worth as do the war in iraq...which is absolutely squat spit clit and rotten balls, to be frank!

In this rude random system to decide ones 'national loyalty', I wouldn't have a choice to even try to test out and be utilised by the Thai nation that I were more valuable in some civil service office translating secret documents or whatnot, or a local spy on alqueda endeavors in Patong...what have you...

The whole idea of drawing balls out of a hat for some privlidged numnut to decide me and my family's destiny, which could likely be some hel_l I had no previous intensions of ever going, doesn't exactly speek 'Nation' to me...

Sorry for the rants...anyhow, I'll keep checking here for anything new in the next few days but you should hear from me again and the updates within the week as it unfolds...

cheers!

[samran]

let us know how it goes.

My experience in getting my name on the house registration (after 30) was pretty painless, and importantly totally seperate from the sasadee, who have nothing to do with it, or issuance of an ID card. So I wouldn't stress about walking into a trap (as I was).

Same with the Thai PP, no miltiary documentation is required.

[greenwanderer108]

right on the ball samran...granted the final interview at the amphur was tedius and took a few hours all together. I mean even though the poo yai (a chick) had the packet of law and documents in her hand handed down from Tor Mor, she still had to ask all the questions all over again...standard procedure...anyway, was so relieved when I saw my name in the house regestration and had the Thai ID card in hand... no mention of any conscription, but assume I'll have to deal with that again next year when they send the letter...no worries if I can't get that loophole of 'naturalisation' in my favor, for my uncle in law is a colonel and sure it won't be hard to do the 20k route according to my aunt, which simply would garuntee I would end up in registering in the district with sufficient volunteer quota...or take my chances to see if volunteers are plentiful next april in the district of me house regestration (lopburi)...

Cheers and Hooray for me!!!

[astral]

I have no idea in your case, but I do know that those born as Thai nationals have to complete

their national service before the age of 30. Does this help at all?

[samran]

right on the ball samran...granted the final interview at the amphur was tedius and took a few hours all together. I mean even though the poo yai (a chick) had the packet of law and documents in her hand handed down from Tor Mor, she still had to ask all the questions all over again...standard procedure...anyway, was so relieved when I saw my name in the house regestration and had the Thai ID card in hand... no mention of any conscription, but assume I'll have to deal with that again next year when they send the letter...no worries if I can't get that loophole of 'naturalisation' in my favor, for my uncle in law is a colonel and sure it won't be hard to do the 20k route according to my aunt, which simply would garuntee I would end up in registering in the district with sufficient volunteer quota...or take my chances to see if volunteers are plentiful next april in the district of me house regestration (lopburi)...

Cheers and Hooray for me!!!

good news greeny, and congrats. Welcome to the warm bosum of all things Thai. Life became so much easier once I got my documentation in order.

I'd wait to see if they actually send a letter. We've had a 'inter' Thai members of TV who have come back to Thailand in their 20's and never actually have been sent the letter. Play it by ear.

Next step now, is to get the passport. Really easy, the application 'form' is about 4 lines, and they pull the rest of the information from the central database. Takes three days.

[greenwanderer108]

good news greeny, and congrats. Welcome to the warm bosum of all things Thai. Life became so much easier once I got my documentation in order.

I'd wait to see if they actually send a letter. We've had a 'inter' Thai members of TV who have come back to Thailand in their 20's and never actually have been sent the letter. Play it by ear.

Next step now, is to get the passport. Really easy, the application 'form' is about 4 lines, and they pull the rest of the information from the central database. Takes three days.

This Thai inter male over 20 you speak of...was he actively filed in a Thai house regestration?

The passport...I'm worried about that because I've read it recently in another related thread that some Bai sor dor 9??? is required for male applicants over 20 to get the PP. I'm sure it would be simple to get it via an Embassy overseas without any hassle but I'm in no place to go to some Thai embassy overseas and all I got is the ID and photocopy of my house regestration info, no Thai birth certificate. Can any Thai males over 20 confirm whether they had to show anything other than ID card for application via Ministry of Foreign Affairs, specifically related to the conscription...

Cheers

[samran]

good news greeny, and congrats. Welcome to the warm bosum of all things Thai. Life became so much easier once I got my documentation in order.

I'd wait to see if they actually send a letter. We've had a 'inter' Thai members of TV who have come back to Thailand in their 20's and never actually have been sent the letter. Play it by ear.

Next step now, is to get the passport. Really easy, the application 'form' is about 4 lines, and they pull the rest of the information from the central database. Takes three days.

This Thai inter male over 20 you speak of...was he actively filed in a Thai house regestration?

The passport...I'm worried about that because I've read it recently in another related thread that some Bai sor dor 9??? is required for male applicants over 20 to get the PP. I'm sure it would be simple to get it via an Embassy overseas without any hassle but I'm in no place to go to some Thai embassy overseas and all I got is the ID and photocopy of my house regestration info, no Thai birth certificate. Can any Thai males over 20 confirm whether they had to show anything other than ID card for application via Ministry of Foreign Affairs, specifically related to the conscription...

Cheers

Yep, thats right. The person in question had an ID card, the lot. Even a Thai PP if I recall correctly.

I applied for a new passport last year, and can confirm that no military documentation is required. All that you need is you Thai ID card and (if I recall) your house registration.

The application form itself isn't really a form. It is a slip of paper with maybe 3 - 5 lines of info they need on it. The passport office at Chaeng Wattana is EXTREMELY efficient. You turn up, fill in this slip of paper, wait maybe 10 minutes and you get called to these high tech desks with computers, camera's the lot.

They basically take your photo and signature, and pull the info from the central Tabieen Baan database. Zap, and you are out of there. They courier the PP to you in 5 days.

Trust me, you are in the home straight!

[Maizefarmer]

Any particular reason why you are so against wanting to do military service??

MF

[greenwanderer108]

Any particular reason why you are so against wanting to do military service??

For the same reasons I would never enlist to join Afghan or Iraq campaigns for the US military...granted the US option, I'd have the option to actually be utilised via tests to do something more prestigous in line with my own abilities, knowledge, etc.

The Thai system is pretty much as it was 400 years ago, where I would only be statistic of manpower figures that some other connected prestigous persons in power to decide my fate for his (their) interests and power ambitions, not necesarily for the benefit of the Thai nation and all that it means...quite the contrary actually.

Let's face it, the conflict in the south of Thailand is about as relevant to Thai virtue and nation as is Iraq and Afghan are to US freedom and liberty, etc. There's clear hidden agendas in both conflicts that only the educated and free-minded (aparently what Thai is supposed to mean anyway) could see past.

Other than that, I have a family and future in my hands. If some other poor farmers or whatever who don't understand or realize their own potential and purpose in life want to take their chances kissing toes in military pyramids, then let them willingly choose that path...

I, on the other hand can contribute to this society and world much more as a free-thinker / spirit than I ever could as a jarhead taking orders and acting without question.

One of the main foundations of Buddhism (as a philosophy), for example, teaches one to question everything, much like Socrates, and to accept knowledge and understanding only through logic and reasoning. In the millitary there is no room for free-thinking and this method of aquiring knowledge and understanding. There is a pyramid, much like organised religions where one entity at the top relies on every lower teir to follow the chain with blind faith, or what I call ignorance.

Now if it were simply about 'service' to my country, than I think we have to define what 'service' really means, and who or what the 'country' really is. Such sacred words as 'service' and 'country' have clearly been exploited when it all comes down to drawing balls out of a hat on mandatory order for the benefit of some corrupt general and his strategies of manpower and political ambitions.

Am I willing to serve my country by bettering society through learning, writing, and teaching? Yes

Am I willing to serve my country with war training, sucking in to heirarchy's and using a gun? No

I'm not a 'Buddhist' I'm not a 'Muslim', I'm not a 'Christian'. I'm not even an 'Athiest' or 'Agnostic'... but I strive to be a free thinker. I know that I know nothing, and anyone who thinks they know something by calling themselves anything will recieve no recpect from me, nor do I expect them to demand it.

With a family and all the knowledge I continue to recall daily, do I want to die now? hel_l no, I'm still benefiting from life. And it's not only about a fear of dying...but dying for what? I would much rather die as a Malcom X or MLK, or better yet exactly how Socrates chose to die...than as some nobody in a platoon somewhere. Die in a path that I chose and understood and willfully made that decision to be there for it's cause, not die on duty ordered by someone else who doesn't even truly understand why death is occuring.

Piboon Songkhram is dead...why try to keep him alive...we can see from 50 years of hindsight, his policies (particularly with the south) and path didn't work to better the conflicts and country overall and they certainly as hel_l ain't gonna make Thailand a first world country in the next fifty years by continuing to enforce them now. Let the Thai people be Thai, in that free thinkers, let them actually learn and freely use Buddhist values...throw away the amulets and gold, and boldly embrace the books and knowledge...

enough said for now...I must go serve my country's future by bettering their english with my magazine ebook mpeg recordings

[samran]

Any particular reason why you are so against wanting to do military service??

MF

Greeny has covered the philosphical side.

I'll cover the practical.

For me, conscription gives the Thai army access as many soldiers it needs, so that it can undertake whatever projects and enterprises that pleases it. Along with ministry of interior, it is probably the single most corrupt institution in Thailand. It survives on the compulsory subsidy of man power to do its bidding, and the threat of the gun to get what it wants in the context of Thai politics.

Take away conscription, and I beleive the army would be left with one of two choices, decrease its size or be forced to reconstruct the army as a professional force. Either would leave less room for corruption in my view and the latter would be much better for Thailand in the long run.

By pure luck and timing in my existence in Thailand, I'm exempted for being over 30 (well technically, I'm in the reserves), but if I wasn't, I'd be very hesitant in supporting such an institution and probably do 'whatever' I could to get out if it.

I'm thoroughly aware that my stances on this particular aspect of things are indeed hypocritical in the context of not usually wanting to go illegally against the grain on these things, but on this one, I've just said 'screw it'.