Non-profit, shared ownership golf course - how much would you be ready to invest/pay?

[keithsimmonds]

Going back on things said on here about playing the same course etc etc where i caddied in the Uk (Queenwood) they had monthly Stapleford comps off different Tees, Quarterly medal comps, member member and member guest comps,club Championship (Darren Clarke a winner one year)everything was very well supported by the members, they even had combo cards... back/middle tees and middle /front tees....never boring not even when caddying there 7 days a week.

 

[topt]

1 hour ago, keithsimmonds said:

where i caddied in the Uk (Queenwood)

Interesting as I had never heard of this course but this was the first search result that came up -

https://www.top100golfcourses.com/golf-course/queenwood

 

It's not a recent report but if no major change my guess is the fees are substantially more than being talked about in this thread.

[keithsimmonds]

1 hour ago, topt said:

Interesting as I had never heard of this course but this was the first search result that came up -

https://www.top100golfcourses.com/golf-course/queenwood

 

It's not a recent report but if no major change my guess is the fees are substantially more than being talked about in this thread.

Membership fee only slightly higher...250,000usd (dollars/American  Owner) annual subs about 14000gpb. The owner also has ties with Eagle Springs and Nantucket. David Howell Paul McGinley Thomas Bjorn Darren Clarke Ernie Els Justin Rose and Adam Scott were all original members though it was not 250000usd for them....latterly Thorbjorn Oleson Thomas Pieters Tom Lewis Soren Kjeldsen all joined.

Had the pleasure of caddying for most before i left...the greens were modelled on Augusta ...3 putts were the norm (not for the pros i hasten to add).

You cant play there unless you are invited....celebrities sports stars a couple of Lords and a few Sir,s are members...a very nice place to work.

[keithsimmonds]

On 3/6/2021 at 1:42 AM, tgw said:

 

King's Naga was never on the radar. it's just a PITA to drive to.

Have a look at "Pattaya Expat Golfers " Facebook page... someone has said that Phoenix Golf is up for sale....was that on your radar???

[scubascuba3]

Phoenix will be massively overpriced so no way a large group of golfers will buy

[tgw]

1 hour ago, scubascuba3 said:

Phoenix will be massively overpriced so no way a large group of golfers will buy

Agreed.

It wouldn't hurt to ask though.

What's a realistic price "a group of golfers" could put up for a course like Phoenix?

Great course, great location.

27 holes accommodate 1000 members.

If the membership scheme is attractive (infinite term, transferable without fee) I reckon given the great location, it might be worth 250.000 - 300.000 baht per membership.

I doubt that crowdfunding such a sum will be easy though.

If there were enough people around to buy expensive memberships, it's doable though.

[scubascuba3]

18 minutes ago, tgw said:

Agreed.

It wouldn't hurt to ask though.

What's a realistic price "a group of golfers" could put up for a course like Phoenix?

Great course, great location.

27 holes accommodate 1000 members.

If the membership scheme is attractive (infinite term, transferable without fee) I reckon given the great location, it might be worth 250.000 - 300.000 baht per membership.

I doubt that crowdfunding such a sum will be easy though.

If there were enough people around to buy expensive memberships, it's doable though.

250k+ joining fee\ownership fee? annual would need to be 50k+ and optional caddy, if compulsory caddy forget the idea

[tgw]

7 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

250k+ joining fee\ownership fee? annual would need to be 50k+ and optional caddy, if compulsory caddy forget the idea

yes, I said "attractive".
obviously it would need to fit members' expectations.

making caddies optional would certainly be very attractive to many players.

[RAZZELL]

Friend of my brother's owned a small 9 hole course in the UK.

 

They made way more money (cash) from the driving range!

 

RAZZ

[stratocaster]

Just to give a ballpark figure regarding purchasing or leasing a golf course in Thailand.

Bangpra golf which was leased by a Japanese company expired on July 2021 and was not renewed. This is from an advert so can not post a link. A search will most likely find it.

The owners are the Thai Treasury department.

30 year lease at 1.4 billion baht. First minimum payment 280 million, the remainder can be spread over 4 installment payments charged at 3% outstanding balance per year. Time frame to be negotiated.

Golf course rental payment to owners, 12.8 million first year increasing by 9% every 3 years.

3% of other revenue, for example F and B and hotel before expenses to be paid to owners.

Winning bidder must agree to the following. 160 million to be spent upgrading the golf course. At least 150 million upgrading the hotel and club house and 5 million building a golf academy. Obviously the Japanese let it run down.

Strangely there were no takers after the first round. I am writing this from memory so please excuse if figures are slightly off.

 

[scubascuba3]

13 minutes ago, stratocaster said:

Just to give a ballpark figure regarding purchasing or leasing a golf course in Thailand.

Bangpra golf which was leased by a Japanese company expired on July 2021 and was not renewed. This is from an advert so can not post a link. A search will most likely find it.

The owners are the Thai Treasury department.

30 year lease at 1.4 billion baht. First minimum payment 280 million, the remainder can be spread over 4 installment payments charged at 3% outstanding balance per year. Time frame to be negotiated.

Golf course rental payment to owners, 12.8 million first year increasing by 9% every 3 years.

3% of other revenue, for example F and B and hotel before expenses to be paid to owners.

Winning bidder must agree to the following. 160 million to be spent upgrading the golf course. At least 150 million upgrading the hotel and club house and 5 million building a golf academy. Obviously the Japanese let it run down.

Strangely there were no takers after the first round. I am writing this from memory so please excuse if figures are slightly off.

 

Those demands sound unreasonable, course will probably be left to run down more than it is now. Upgrading hotel and a golf academy are just nonsense demands

[tgw]

6 hours ago, stratocaster said:

Just to give a ballpark figure regarding purchasing or leasing a golf course in Thailand.

Bangpra golf which was leased by a Japanese company expired on July 2021 and was not renewed. This is from an advert so can not post a link. A search will most likely find it.

The owners are the Thai Treasury department.

30 year lease at 1.4 billion baht. First minimum payment 280 million, the remainder can be spread over 4 installment payments charged at 3% outstanding balance per year. Time frame to be negotiated.

Golf course rental payment to owners, 12.8 million first year increasing by 9% every 3 years.

3% of other revenue, for example F and B and hotel before expenses to be paid to owners.

Winning bidder must agree to the following. 160 million to be spent upgrading the golf course. At least 150 million upgrading the hotel and club house and 5 million building a golf academy. Obviously the Japanese let it run down.

Strangely there were no takers after the first round. I am writing this from memory so please excuse if figures are slightly off.

a lease scheme is a non-starter from the start because it requires the course to be operated commercially and very much for-profit and leaves members with nothing after 30 years.

 

they need to design it as a condo-like jurisdic entity that owns the real estate.

[topt]

7 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

course will probably be left to run down more than it is now.

Have you restarted to play non optional caddie courses?

Where are you getting the fact that it is run down from as I played it 2/3 weeks ago and didn't seem much different to the last how ever many years to me.

[scubascuba3]

2 minutes ago, topt said:

Have you restarted to play non optional caddie courses?

Where are you getting the fact that it is run down from as I played it 2/3 weeks ago and didn't seem much different to the last how ever many years to me.

i haven't played it for years but it was never in top form, fairways not watered enough, crab grass in places, usual story, most courses lack maintenance, you see caddies weeding these days?

[topt]

1 hour ago, scubascuba3 said:

you see caddies weeding these days?

Not in between holes whilst waiting no. Funnily enough was talking about that to a caddie last week. Although later she pointed out some caddies working in one area.

Bangpra has been as you say, I think for as long as I have played it, so no change. 

[topt]

9 hours ago, stratocaster said:

Bangpra golf which was leased by a Japanese company expired on July 2021 and was not renewed.

Do you know how long they had it for as I am sure I remember supposed "new" owners a couple of years before Covid - they even started to ask for PSC cards.......

[RAZZELL]

https://www.thailand-property.com/commercial-for-sale-in-lam-toi-ting-bangkok_4474692

 

https://property.cbre.co.th/sale/golf-course-for-investment-chiang-mai-134-08

[tgw]

I did some new thinking about this, my best guess is that memberships would need to be set to around 1 million baht nominal value (transferable perpetual membership with leasing options) and yearly costs to somewhere around 100k for 1000 members.

That would net 1 billion for infrastructure and 100 million/year for maintenance.

 

Regarding legal structure, Thai Law provides the "Association" as a form of Jurisdic Person that seems completely appropriate for a golf club.