Not Quite Chipping Your Child

[Nikkijah]

A very helpful tv.com member sent me a link to a supplier of currently available technology, GPS locating devices in watches or badges.

I'm not looking for any personal attacks here thank you very much, just some harmless opinions will do

kinderguard

[phazey]

Definatly in favour of knowing the whereabouts of offspring - certainly up until a certain age where you simply must respect your childs privacy. Can remember worrying my mother sick when i was a nipper and staying out past dark..........

Would worry me if such information got in the wrong hands though.

[cdnvic]

I can't believe that some people would object. The only danger is if you begin to use it to replace your eyes, rather than for an emergency.

[Nikkijah]

I can't believe that some people would object. The only danger is if you begin to use it to replace your eyes, rather than for an emergency.

Believe it cdnvic, give this thread a few hours and we'll see

I think the whole point of these devices are for when you can't have your eyes on your child, I would expect that the moments when children go missing are most likely to be those times and I believe there is nothing wrong with being over-protective, to an extent...

[mosquitoman]

I cant see why any one would object either

MM

[Nikkijah]

I can understand people not wanting to be chipped, it is a bit over the top but when we're talking about children and their safety then some measures are necessary.

Think back 30 years in the UK, children had much more freedom than they do today, back then some people would have ridiculed the way in which parents protected their children today but I'm sure those measures prevent a lot of abductions etc, GPS or chipping could well be the future

[GuestHouse]

Where to people get this stuff from - Chipping your kids?

A child goes missing in Portugal - and don't get me wrong I find the whole story heart breaking, I can't even watch it on the news.

But it's the response I don't get.

Companies straight out promoting chipping children.

A couple of points to note here: The mobile phone companies did a similar scam advertising phones to women (remember the adds, woman in car breaks down in hostile industrial area - lots of graffitti and moody black and white shots of the terrible fears they where promoting to get women to buy mobile phones...)

The advertising standards board in the UK forced the mobile companies to stop peddling this nonsense.

And the other point not to miss. Don't go to dinner leaving infants alone in a hotel room.

It's not chips that kids need, its parents... near by and attentive.

[Nikkijah]

Some good points Guesthouse but I think the real promoters for these kinds of technologies are the freaks and sickos who abduct the children or worse

[endure]

I can understand people not wanting to be chipped, it is a bit over the top but when we're talking about children and their safety then some measures are necessary.

Think back 30 years in the UK, children had much more freedom than they do today, back then some people would have ridiculed the way in which parents protected their children today but I'm sure those measures prevent a lot of abductions etc, GPS or chipping could well be the future

Is there any proof of that? Any statistics to show that there are more child abductions today than there were 30 years ago? There's certainly seems to be a lot more hysteria about it nowadays.

[Nikkijah]

I can understand people not wanting to be chipped, it is a bit over the top but when we're talking about children and their safety then some measures are necessary.

Think back 30 years in the UK, children had much more freedom than they do today, back then some people would have ridiculed the way in which parents protected their children today but I'm sure those measures prevent a lot of abductions etc, GPS or chipping could well be the future

Is there any proof of that? Any statistics to show that there are more child abductions today than there were 30 years ago? There's certainly seems to be a lot more hysteria about it nowadays.

I understand I should have chosen my words more carefully...

There seems to be more REPORTS of child abductions.

[Nikkijah]

I just Googled a few things and came up with this:

The offence of child abduction is part of the 'Violence Against the Person' category of police recorded crime. It is only a small proportion of the total category offences (just 0.1% in 2002/03). Yet the total child abduction offence numbers police recorded increased by 45% in 2002/03 from the previous year, to 846 offences. This Research and Development Statistics Directorate (RDS) publication examines the main types of offence that make up the total number of recorded child abductions across England and Wales in 2002/03. Reasons why these offences may have increased so dramatically are also discussed.

Full report here: Research and Development Statistics Directorate (RDS) publication

[GuestHouse]

Is there any proof of that? Any statistics to show that there are more child abductions today than there were 30 years ago?

I recall that when this was discussed in the UK, the statistics for child abduction (by stranger) and attacks on children (by strangers) have remained constant since records have been kept - 50 years or more - Always low numbers.

The biggest risk of abduction is by a parent (This is always assumed to be fathers but if we consider mothers skipping off overseas/on an around the world trip or just disapearing with children then the Father abduction figures fade into 'insignificance').

The biggest pervert threat children face is within their own families. Again not all perps are male. The second biggest threat is from people close to the family/known to the child - particularly people in authority.

The biggest single risk to life and limb to infants, certainly in the UK is car accidents (I can't imagine its better in Thailand).

And outside of that, there are a host of vigilance issues - Like do you have a swimming pool that your toddler can potter off into; balconies and starewells (How many expat families opt for the high rise with a swimming pool?!)

I'll add here, and I have mentioned this before, I was once at an expat party around a hotel pool when one of the waiters dived into the water right along side of where I was standing. He pulled a toddler out of the water less than two meters behind me - But for his vigilance the child would have silently drowned (Not my kid I'm pleased to say - The Mrs would have killed me had it been).

[Nikkijah]

Is there any proof of that? Any statistics to show that there are more child abductions today than there were 30 years ago?

The biggest risk of abduction is by a parent (This is always assumed to be fathers but if we consider mothers skipping off overseas/on an around the world trip or just disapearing with children then the Father abduction figures fade into 'insignificance').

The biggest pervert threat children face is within their own families. Again not all perps are male. The second biggest threat is from people close to the family/known to the child - particularly people in authority.

I know that you know your facts Guesthouse but these facts are from a report specifically about child abduction:

More than half (56%) of all police recorded child abductions involved an offender not known to the victim

Attempted child abductions by strangers were the largest single type of child abductions (47%). In most offences there was minimal contact between the victim and the offender. The number of these offences appears to have increased dramatically since 2001/02.

23% of child abductions were committed by a parent of the child. In some cases the child was not taken outside the UK and it seems that in some of these cases either the offence should not have been recorded or should have been recorded as 'no-crime' at a later stage.

These figures show that the highest % of abductions are committed by an offender unknown to the victim

[Crossy]

Does this device actually exist yet?

KinderGUARDTM will contain a miniature chip with its own power source that calibrates a GPS signal.

Additionally:-

Battery life, any less than a week is pointless (and you've still got to remember to charge it), I seriously doubt that such an allegedly tiny device will be able to house a 'permanent' power source of sufficient capacity.

GPS doesn't work if it can't 'see' the sky so if the nipper is in a vehicle boot (trunk), basement or even a room with no clear view of the sky it becomes useless and only able to indicate its last known position. Actually if this 'undetectable' device is even under a woolly sleeve will it work?

How does it communicate with the outside world, GPRS? If so - see below

Actually, a mobile phone in the nipper's pocket would be almost as good (and available now), so long as it's turned on it can be triangulated to within a few tens of metres in an urban area (less so in rural locations but still good enough to point the authorities in the right direction).

[GuestHouse]

As I said Nikkijah, it all depends on the definition of an abduction.

Quoting a % in relation to stranger/parental abduction is meaningless until parental abductions are correctly recorded.

For example: I personally know three fathers who have never seen their children since their mothers went AWOL with their children. (Are those children abducted)

If the father had done this, we would almost certainly would call it an abduction.

Then there is the whole issue of what does a Chip and Pin achieve? A chip and pin does not prevent an abduction.

To my mind the questions to ask relate to understanding that child abductions (in absolute terms) are not increasingly common (though with international media they are better reported).

So ask these questions:

Who is promoting this fear of child abduction and why?

Companies Selling Newspapers - Why?

Companies Selling Safety Gadgets - Why?

Political Parties and Pressure Groups - Why?

Let's have more surveillance, more cameras, chip and pin, ID cards, DNA and Biometrics.... Why? and to who's benefit?

And don't miss this.

A well educated, articulate, good looking young middle class couple suffer the obscene tragedy of their child being abducted from their apartment while they are having meal in a restaurant across the road.

Now imagine that this had been an family living in a council house, not so well educated, less articulate, not so good looking, around at a neighbor’s house with their infant children left home alone.

The press would vilify them.

To my mind the ONLY issue is parental responsibility, educating people on what parental responsibility is, encouraging and promoting parental responsibility.

Gadgets are not the answer. The parents taking full responsibility and giving their children the vigilance they deserve is the answer.

I don’t see the UK press, I get the UK TV news but has anyone even questioned the issues of child neglect and child endangerment that are jumping out of this tragedy.

[Prakanong]

"I recall that when this was discussed in the UK, the statistics for child abduction (by stranger) and attacks on children (by strangers) have remained constant since records have been kept - 50 years or more - Always low numbers."

I can remember something similar but may have been abductions and murders in the UK of children be complete strangers.

As you say pretty constant figures over the last century to now.

The fear is certainly higher now - kids today do not have the freedom we had in the 60's and 70's.

[Crossy]

I don’t see the UK press, I get the UK TV news but has anyone even questioned the issues of child neglect and child endangerment that are jumping out of this tragedy.

Certainly not even mentioned on the TV news we get (BBC World), as soon as I heard that they'd left the (two) kiddies alone whilst they ate, I thought 'idiots', not just abduction (miniscule chance) but what about a fire (very real chance).

Same goes for the young lad sadly electrocuted last year in Thailand, charging his Gameboy with wet hands, everyone was quick to jump in and villify Thai electrics, nobody suggested that the parents were at fault for letting the lad plug in a device unsupervised and alone in a hotel room.

All that said, I sincerely hope they find the youngster, but I really believe it is now unlikely and I'd dearly like to be proved wrong!!!

[Nikkijah]

To my mind the ONLY issue is parental responsibility, educating people on what parental responsibility is, encouraging and promoting parental responsibility.

Gadgets are not the answer. The parents taking full responsibility and giving their children the vigilance they deserve is the answer.

I agree Guesthouse, I have had many conversations about abduction/murder/rape/muggings etc etc and they all come down to the fact that education is the long term answer, whole-heartedly agree, however, how long will this process take if it is implemented in a regimental fashion from this very moment onwards?

What about the story of the little girl who was in the bath in her house during the day last year, a sick man entered the bathroom through the window, took her away, raped her then left her in a back street near her home?? You could argue that the parent should have been by the bath, watching every move the child made.

I know this is deviating from the thread topic a little bit but it shows that you can be responsible and careful when you are in places that you would expect there to be an abductor or whatever, but in your own home, whilst your child is in the bath!!??

[SiamSquare123]

he probably wants to chip is his girl friend, but instead posted about 'chipping his child'. why would chipping your child be unethical? You should have just posted "by friend (wink wink) wants to chip his gf, is that ok?"

[astral]

It is a sad reflection on society today, that we even have to think about this.........................

and I agree with GuestHouse.

To my mind the ONLY issue is parental responsibility, educating people on what parental responsibility is, encouraging and promoting parental responsibility.

Gadgets are not the answer. The parents taking full responsibility and giving their children the vigilance they deserve is the answer.

[cdnvic]

Murder, rape, and abduction aside, what about the most likely scenario, when I kid just gets lost?

Edited May 8, 2007 by cdnvic

[Nikkijah]

he probably wants to chip is his girl friend, but instead posted about 'chipping his child'. why would chipping your child be unethical? You should have just posted "by friend (wink wink) wants to chip his gf, is that ok?"

Yes that's right

[SiamSquare123]

wow, some very dumb responses in this thread. people can be good parents and still have their child snatched. Are you going to take him to school and sit next to him? Give me a break, you guys sound very self righteous saying that good parenting is all that matters. He goes outside to play catch, you will never take your eye off him for more then 3 seconds? OK.... La La La

[GuestHouse]

There is a whole difference between neglegance and circumstances beyond ones reasonable control.

Dear friends of ours lost their daughter when she accidentally strangled herself climbing out of her high chair while her mother answered the phone - How far do we need to go in protecting our children is a reasonable question but I doubt you'll get a reasonable answer.

As for the attack in the home - Yes again a tragedy - But these things need to be seen in perspective, such attacks happen, always have happened and sadly always will happen. (Be sure of one thing, they are way under reported in Thailand!)

The gutter press in the UK have been on a 10 year campaign drumming up rabid fear and hate over child mollestors - Has it improved matters? A pediatrician has been chased out of his home by a mob of dumb sh1ts, a few people have been involved in hate attacks, either as attackers of victims.

Meanwhile children are locked down at home, increasingly isolated, increasingly under all manners of pressure that we never suffered when we were children.

While as parents we are fed fear and loathing when what we need is help in understanding and managing the real risks.

Infants left alone in an appartment while their parents are out of the building having a meal is to my mind child neglect and endangerment.

Talk of chipping, bogey men and all manner of fears is a smoke screen to the real problem - Parenting.

Drumming up fears to sell goods, newspapers or to gain political leverage is disgraceful and only creates child harm of another kind.

Bringing this back to 'Thailand' - ask any Thai mother how far she allows her infant children out of her or a responsible adult's sight?

[Nikkijah]

There is a whole difference between neglegance and circumstances beyond ones reasonable control.

Dear friends of ours lost their daughter when she accidentally strangled herself climbing out of her high chair while her mother answered the phone - How far do we need to go in protecting our children is a reasonable question but I doubt you'll get a reasonable answer.

As for the attack in the home - Yes again a tragedy - But these things need to be seen in perspective, such attacks happen, always have happened and sadly always will happen. (Be sure of one thing, they are way under reported in Thailand!)

The gutter press in the UK have been on a 10 year campaign drumming up rabid fear and hate over child mollestors - Has it improved matters? A pediatrician has been chased out of his home by a mob of dumb sh1ts, a few people have been involved in hate attacks, either as attackers of victims.

Meanwhile children are locked down at home, increasingly isolated, increasingly under all manners of pressure that we never suffered when we were children.

While as parents we are fed fear and loathing when what we need is help in understanding and managing the real risks.

Infants left alone in an appartment while their parents are out of the building having a meal is to my mind child neglect and endangerment.

Talk of chipping, bogey men and all manner of fears is a smoke screen to the real problem - Parenting.

Drumming up fears to sell goods, newspapers or to gain political leverage is disgraceful and only creates child harm of another kind.

Bringing this back to 'Thailand' - ask any Thai mother how far she allows her infant children out of her or a responsible adult's sight?

I agree with all of this, I agree with the sentiments that we should all be responsible.

[SiamSquare123]

Guesthouse,

So you take your kids to school and sit with them the entire time right? And if you dont, do they ever leave the class to go to the bathroom? Is their a school playground? If one can afford this technology, I have no idea of the cost, then I dont see any downsides to it.

[GuestHouse]

Guesthouse,

So you take your kids to school and sit with them the entire time right? And if you dont, do they ever leave the class to go to the bathroom? Is their a school playground? If one can afford this technology, I have no idea of the cost, then I dont see any downsides to it.

No I/we don't do any of that.

Neither do we want to abdicate our responsibility to a gadget. I/we particularly do not want to live in a climate of fear promoted by businesses/nespapers and politicos for their own greed.