How Do You Think Los Would Be Different Today?

[PeaceBlondie]

Perhaps Colypat is being confused with cdnvic - easy to do since their niks both begin in C.

One does not need to hold a valid US military ID card to express an opinion here, although it does add some credibility. Let me go find mine.....

[farang prince]

Perhaps Colypat is being confused with cdnvic - easy to do since their niks both begin in C.

One does not need to hold a valid US military ID card to express an opinion here, although it does add some credibility. Let me go find mine.....

PB, you always have credibility with me. I took a walk around the park and I'm a little cooled off now. But my heavens, we have a lot of smoke blowers on TV. I do get tired of the anti-American rhetoric and I'm not even usually a "stand up for the Red, White and Blue" kind of guy.

[ColPyat]

Congratulations on being European. I'm sure that means something in Europe. And the fact that you are human and over 18 is impressive. It's great that Thai Visa gives us expats an opportunity to voice our views. But when you talk about Vietnam, you better bring some experience to the table. Otherwise, all you bring is hot air...which is something that a lot of Europeans really are experts at.

Edit, pointless debate.

Nothing more infantile than nationalistic based insults.

Edited May 9, 2007 by ColPyat

[PeaceBlondie]

Colypat makes a point I'll have to agree with, regardless of my dick size, military ID card, or nationality (or, for that matter, the dick sizes of Colypat's mother or Madelyn Albright ): a person does not need to be a war veteran to hate war or know something about it. Quakers, Mennonites, and Amish are anti-war without having been there, and some of them are far more informed than many veterans, about issues that relate. Warfare is destructive, not constructive. War is far more expensive than peace. Nationalism and militarism make bad religions. The military does not need to save you.

Thailand managed to more or less escape a war that ravaged several of its neighbors, but let's give more credit to the Thais than to the Americans for that fact.

[farang prince]

Congratulations on being European. I'm sure that means something in Europe. And the fact that you are human and over 18 is impressive. It's great that Thai Visa gives us expats an opportunity to voice our views. But when you talk about Vietnam, you better bring some experience to the table. Otherwise, all you bring is hot air...which is something that a lot of Europeans really are experts at.

And then, oh wise one, what makes the Vietnam war soooo different than any other war, in terms of personal experience?

Yes, i have been in wars, the last one was only about one and a half weeks ago, a few soldiers, and friends, i was on patrol with were attacked and badly injured two days after i left, and are in hospital now. I'll be going back there soon.

And that was not the first war i have been in, and it won't be the last one.

Are we finished with comparing dick size? And yes, after two tours in Vietnam your dick is bigger than mine, but don't think just because you are Vietnam vet from the US you have reserved all the experience of the world yourselves.

The dick of many of my older relatives, including the one of my dad (and my late mum), is far bigger than yours, because they have lived through many more years of war without the comfort of choppers, brothels, R&R, and the safety of knowing their relatives safe back over an ocean far away from the bombs and fighting.

Basically, to understand political and historical facts you don't need to go to war. You just need to have the ability to read and be open minded enough to let you personal opinions and experiences not get in the way of facts.

Sorry to hear about your buddies. I wasn't comparing dick sizes with you, Colypat. I already can walk the walk. I don't usually get medaled up in my conversations, but I also took great offense to some of the posts on this thread. You can have an opinion about anything. Opinions and <deleted> seem to be a common denominator on Thai Visa. But your opinion about Vietnam has zero credibility with me. Why? Because you weren't there. You didn't experience it. It is the same reason why my opinion about Iraq would have zero credibility with the boots who have been there. You can read about the history of war, but that history is written by someone else. If you weren't there, how can you have an opinion that matters one iota to the people who actually fought the war? All you can generate is hot air about something you didn't experience. And yes, combat is different in each war. Today's warfare is totally different than my combat experiences in Vietnam, Granada, Panama and Gulf War I. The bottom line is that I was lucky. A lot of buddies who were better soldiers than I was have their names etched on a black granite wall in Washington, and life rolls on. If you are going back to the Sand Box, make sure you stay small.

[ColPyat]

Thailand managed to more or less escape a war that ravaged several of its neighbors, but let's give more credit to the Thais than to the Americans for that fact.

Unfortunately though Thailand is right now slipping into a war, and it seems nobody can stop it anymore. Down south things deteriorate further every week, some districts are already in a state of war with daily ambushes, bombs and similar niceties (and this one the US has nothing really to do with).

Anyhow, thanks.

Debating the US's foreign policy always seems to deteriorate along those lines. Why is it that so? Why can't we discuss US politics without having to insult each other?

[ColPyat]

Sorry to hear about your buddies. I wasn't comparing dick sizes with you, Colypat. I already can walk the walk. I don't usually get medaled up in my conversations, but I also took great offense to some of the posts on this thread. You can have an opinion about anything. Opinions and <deleted> seem to be a common denominator on Thai Visa. But your opinion about Vietnam has zero credibility with me. Why? Because you weren't there. You didn't experience it. It is the same reason why my opinion about Iraq would have zero credibility with the boots who have been there. You can read about the history of war, but that history is written by someone else. If you weren't there, how can you have an opinion that matters one iota to the people who actually fought the war? All you can generate is hot air about something you didn't experience. And yes, combat is different in each war. Today's warfare is totally different than my combat experiences in Vietnam, Granada, Panama and Gulf War I. The bottom line is that I was lucky. A lot of buddies who were better soldiers than I was have their names etched on a black granite wall in Washington, and life rolls on. If you are going back to the Sand Box, make sure you stay small.

Not the sandbox, down south here in Thailand. But I'll make sure to hide behind the trees, stay in the middle of the road (better chance to survive a bomb)

My opinions on Vietnam here were not meant to be an attack on your personal experiences, i actually tried to express that in my first post here. Nobody can relate to that who hasn't been there, and i for sure can't.

My views are about history and politics, and there you most likely have not really played much of a decision making part, and neither did i. And the ones who did have mostly not had to fear much for their lives.

Yes, i am disgusted by war, and the decision makers who find it so easy to send people off to one because they can't sort their problems out, or because god tells them to have one, or whatever.

There are more than a few Americans, also here in this thread who have the very same problems with their leadership, and past governments, i and many other non-Americans have. My "Yankee hater" views are not personal (well, unless you are one of the few individuals that make the decisions ). I don't hate you for having been a soldier, or for being American, i don't hate you at all.

But please understand that i do have serious problems for many very ugly things the US stand for, things that US foreign policy has done, and still does.

[qwertz]

It's the Thai talent for staying on the fence that has kept it out of serious trouble so far, IMO. They'd just better hope that the policy also holds good for the 3rd. millennium.

[Prakanong]

It's the Thai talent for staying on the fence that has kept it out of serious trouble so far, IMO. They'd just better hope that the policy also holds good for the 3rd. millennium.

They did send troops to WWI (never used I do not think - anyone) and they did declare war on the allies in WWII though ;-))))))

[Maigo6]

Abuse being hurled by some anonymous poster to another anonymous poster on an anonymous internet forum is normal, don't get upset or lose sleep over it.

It's only a forum, not gonna change your life is it ?

Pepe, how much did you lose, you never did answer the question as to why you are so bitter ?

Even though I have seen 'Platoon', 'Deerhunter', Full Metal Jacket' and 'Apocalypse Now', I choose not to respond to this thread.

[qwertz]

It's the Thai talent for staying on the fence that has kept it out of serious trouble so far, IMO. They'd just better hope that the policy also holds good for the 3rd. millennium.

They did send troops to WWI (never used I do not think - anyone) and they did declare war on the allies in WWII though ;-))))))

Nah, they were just blowing smoke, they sent cooks with one pistol between them. And they declared war on the allies with a Japanese accent. BTW, hope you've stopped all the yank bashing now; very distasteful IMO.

P.S. When was the war in Granada? I must have missed that one; not like me to miss a good war.

Edited May 9, 2007 by qwertz

[cm-happy]

The biggest single impact the US had on Thailand (and incidentally the whole of Asia) was the defeat by the United States of Japan in WWII.

All else pales into insignificance.

AMEN!! Please stand up and take a bow. Spot on.

[Prakanong]

"P.S. When was the war in Granada? I must have missed that one; not like me to miss a good war. "

Spanish Civil War in the 30's

Orwell and Hemingway were there appararently

Unless its Grenada when the might of the USA kicked arse of a bunch of Cuban bricklayers working on a building site close to a medical school attended by rich kids not clever enough to get into a real medical school but will be butchering somebody by now

[MTW]

Other nations are critical of EVERY choice the USA makes and this is what stands out for me. When we "GO" somewhere, we are the <deleted>. When we don't "GO" somewhere, the question from the rest of the world is "WHY didn't you go there" or "WHY did it take so long"? Why did we not show up and save Rwanda? Why not here and there?

I will NEVER FORGET after the tsunami in Indonesia, the largest Muslim country in the world, seeing people on the news within hours, asking this exact question "WHERE IS AMERICA, WHY ARE THEY NOT HERE YET" and also seeing people wearing t-shirts with pictures of bin-Laden on them, getting aid from the US. Walking up to our aircraft and getting huge packages while wearing the most anti-American sentiment possible. And we gave it to them. Our people didn't say "okay you, but not you." Although I think they should have. I wouldn't give a grain of rice to a starving person who wore this kind of belief ... like saying: we are happy you all died in 9/11, but now, what can you give me for free? And we will still bomb you tomorrow if given the chance.

Why did we not see "WHERE IS Saudi Arabia?" questions? Why was nobody who got aid wearing shirts showing some image of a US President? Only those shirts got washed away from the waves?

Why does NOBODY call us "imperialist <deleted>" for "intervening" in WW2? I suppose the German losers didn't appreciate it. However, since they are on the unpopular side of things now, nobody says it. Does everyone forget the Iraq news showing people slapping the bottom of their shoes to Saddam's statues, pulling them down, celebrating his fall?

And who can honestly call Vietnam communist at this point? Yes they are facist but they are embracing and growing with leaps and bounds now that they are practicing a market economy.

And excuse me, but what countries in Europe, colonized most of the world, killed indiginous people through war or disease, much more than any "Americans" killed off the native Americans? And were those "Americans" really Americans or Europeans at that time?

Certainly when Americans went to fight foreign wars it was NOT so that we could control trade and slavery through those countries ... and let me ask what European country fought war/s only in order to free another group of people?

The bottom line seems to be this: When the USA is there, we are <deleted>. When we are NOT there, we are <deleted>.

And getting back to Thailand: What did the Prime Minister of Thailand, who has made billions of USDs contribute back to his own country for tsumani relief? And compare what some single American people contributed. And how much do you think Thai (of course only private people) contributed to Katrina disaster ... or any other countries for that matter?

Of course the USA is rich and doesn't need donations but what about donor fatigue? I am sure you have heard this term before but not in Thailand because Thai people can't possibly have this, since they never donate to anything, except temple things that will give them benefits in their other lives. You can't even expect Thai people to support charities in their own country that benefit tourism, and therefore, themselves. Or that only benefit themselves. Do you know about any animal charities that are supported from money or time by Thai people? How about the hilltribe people? Do Thai people, or even Asian people support them?

Why is it that Western people support animals and support/educate people who need help, and then this bring benefits to Thai people, who then use this benefit to make profits for only the super rich here? I am paying for the war in Iraq, and for all those people who think we are only there to make money from the oil business, what money have I made? I didn't cheer because I thought my country would be able to buy cheap gas, I cheered because Iraqi people cheered, and never gave my gas costs a thought.

Maybe we should take a world poll about where the rest of the world would like us to be and how we should spend our taxes? Let me guess, do you know what Thailand would say? Do you know what Cambodia would say? Do you know what Ethiopia would say? Where ever you chose, they would like the USA's money with them, and that means with the top 1/10th of a percent of people who are in power ... so they can go buy houses in Saint Tropez, in Malibu, in anyplace but where they are now. And so that they can buy Gulfstream 4s, and those same people will still pay their staff much lower than what we pay them, and treat them like slaves, and each country will still be poor.

If you want to be critical, why don't some of us "Western" people talk about the policies in other countires towards foreign labor? Why can some of the richest countires in the world import 3rd world workers and pay them the same 3rd world prices? Legally?

I paid my Salvadorian maid, who was at leat 50 years old and didn't speak 2 words of English (after more than 20 years in the USA), 10 USD an hour, and she still ruined most of my clothes in the washing. But she was able to buy a house, in Los Angeles, have a nice car, have 3- 4 children, pay insurance for everything, have major heart surgery for one of her kids (or not pay but get it for free, something I cannot get). She was able to support her old home and family in El Savador, save money for retirement, I also paid social security taxes, etc. for her. I recently watched a TV show about people in the middle east who have tons more money that I do, paying for maids from Sri Lanka, about $200 a month and they thought they were richer than hel_l and never wanted to go back to Sri Lanka.

I want to ask, why aren't some people complaining about things like this? Why do some rich coutntries have enforced policies to keep the poor people poor? Why do they not respect the rights of women? Do women even have rights in most of the world?

Why are there not more people complaining that Thai women have to sell themselves, or their childeren, in order to survive? Is it because you are benefiting from it?

Only America is supposedly getting ahead in the world from "cheap gas" but the rest of first world nations are not, and also they are also not getting ahead because of cheap women/wives/bargirls/prostitution? When you marry a Thai girl are you not getting a translator, maid, cook, advocate, all for the price of slave wages in our own country? Or even for the price of salve wages in Thailand?

Besides, who are all you "European" citizens waiting for to protect you if Iran, Noth Korea, goes nuts? Even the Russian mafia is taking over many cities. What are you prepared to do? Will YOU actually put on a uniform and go to war, whatever your age? Or will you depend on the young American soldiers to protect you?

[Prakanong]

Now........deep breath, deep breath ;-)

[Johpa]

I think the assumption stated in the OP is flawed. It suggests that without the US, Thailand too might have become communist. With all due respect to our American brethren, the US's involvement didn't do much to prevent several other countries becoming or remaining communist.

So the answer is moot.

You make a good point. Laos is still Communist. Veitnam is still Communist. The only other countries that I can think of off the bat that is still Communist is Cuba. Even the Soviet Union is gone. Had we gone to war with them perhaps they would be around too.

The only factor that seems to keep Communism alive and well is U.S. agression. Without the USA, there would be no Communism.

I can only imagine the tremendous amount of US aggression that the Bolsheviks in Russia faced at the turn of the last century. And the interventionist policies of Woodrow Wilson in the years prior to the October Revolution of 1917 that led to the formation of the USSR are oh so well documented, Woodrow you colonial scallywag you! And going back further into history, no doubt that it was US aggression in Europe in the 1840s that caused Karl marx to pen his opus.

Time to stop throwing the Jews down the wells and start throwing the Americans down the wells because we all now know that without us Yanks there would be none of them commies around. And those modern day hard core Vietnamese commies have become the worst of the lot.

So throw d'em Yanks down the wells and kill a commie for mommy.

How can I say this politely? What a stupid post.

Noone is saying the US created communism. What they are saying is that history shows that when the US has attempted to intervene militarily to prevent countries becoming or remaining communist, their efforts have usually had the effect of galvanising said country's efforts (and population) and this reinforcing the totalitarian state.

No need to be polite as it was a totally off-the-wall post with tongue well in cheek as befitting the tone of the arguments made. All one can say that in the face of aggression, most people and countries dig in their heels and circle their wagons irrespective of political or economic persuasions. But on the continuum between totally free markets and hardline Marxist communism, the economic systems rise and fall on their own internal merits and not upon US aggression. And the most successful nations over the past 50 years or so have been those who fall towards the middle of the continuum.

[Pepe']

I guess you are talking about the great war the US decided they should partake in for the better of man kind. And LOST should I add.

And even now Vietnam is thriving, even though its a communist republic.

---------------------------

The war as we all no was not great, it was a horror. I know. I was there.

So your sarcasm is not appreciated. Definitely from me.

When I returned to the US on my first leave I refused to go back. But that's a story for another day.

On a side note, I've been getting my hair cut a small Vietnamese owned barber shop in my neighborhood for years.

Last November just before leaving for LOS I was in getting my pre-flight #2 buzz cut. I was early. Just he and I in the shop.

He commented that I had on a 24 carat gold chain. I showed him the Buddha I was wearing. I told him my mother in-law in BKK had given it to me.

I asked him to stop for a minute. The short version is I said "I want to apologize to you for what we did to your people and your country."

I said, "I was personally involved and know that I am personally responsible for the deaths of many Vietnamese people."

I said, "I don't know what else to say and I guess this is a weird conversation but we were so wrong and I just want to tell you how sorry

I am and how awful I feel when I think back to those days."

He went to a drawer and pulled out an old black and white picture of himself with about seven of his buddies. As he shed a tear he told he they were VC marines.

Then he told me they were all killed except him. I said, "Some of my friends were killed too."

I shook his hand and said, "It wasn't our time, we're here now together

so we have some karma together."

He smiled again with a tear and said, "yes we have our karma."

We have never spoken of it again.

I did two tours in The Nam from 67-69 with the 1st Cav. A group of my old buddies are planning on returning to Vietnam in September of this year to mark the 40th year of going in country. This will be a hard trip for me. At first I was not going to go. I have more than enough memories of Vietnam and there aren't that many that are pleasant. But my Thai partner kept encouraging me to go. I guess she instinctively knew what you experienced with your barber...that it is time for closure. I'll be bringing some of the ashes of two of my platoon members. We are going to scatter them in the Perfume River at Hue. I read a lot of crap on Thai Visa from Yankee haters. None of it means a thing. We are who we are...the good, the bad and the ugly. And life rolls on....

----------------------------------

Yes everything is going on in it's own time. Your desire to bring some closure will help to mitigate karma and bring peace for yourself, those close to you, as well as others you don't know.

Peace brother...

[Boon Mee]

Perhaps Colypat is being confused with cdnvic - easy to do since their niks both begin in C.

One does not need to hold a valid US military ID card to express an opinion here, although it does add some credibility. Let me go find mine.....

Am I allowed to express my opinion here w/out fear of retribution?

[dantilley]

I choose not to respond to this thread.

So how did that post appear then? Someone else logging in with your user name and posting on your behalf? Yes, annoying when that happens...

[PeaceBlondie]

Perhaps Colypat is being confused with cdnvic - easy to do since their niks both begin in C.

One does not need to hold a valid US military ID card to express an opinion here, although it does add some credibility. Let me go find mine.....

Am I allowed to express my opinion here w/out fear of retribution?

Of course, Boon Mee. Surely you know how to follow the forum rules, and if credentials matter in this discussion, you have them. Fire at will! (My name's not Will)

[ColPyat]

Besides, who are all you "European" citizens waiting for to protect you if Iran, Noth Korea, goes nuts? Even the Russian mafia is taking over many cities. What are you prepared to do? Will YOU actually put on a uniform and go to war, whatever your age? Or will you depend on the young American soldiers to protect you?

Not writing another whole novel here.

Just one point: In case of Iran - thanks a lot, but things were going very well with a normalization of Iran, until that idiotic speech about this ridiculous axis of evil. So thanks for your Bush government (and Blair) stamping like an elephant through a china shop, and making every effort to draw the world into a large conflict. Thank you very much.

Funny though that most of the neo-con warmongers are now with one foot in jail because of corruption charges, after having truly screwed up the world, and leaving the rest of us with the mess.

And don't believe all that media hype about the Russian Mafia (and other east European Mafias) - it ain't that bad.

The problem is, that almost all of todays "terrorism" was US and its partners - Saudi and Pakisthan's - creation (read up on history please). And the way how that war against terror is fought (hear shooting out of a village and call in an air strike killing everybody, what do they say... they got the gear, but no idea... ), it has made sure that another generation of "terrorists" found a reason to exist.

So, no thank you, we Europeans would love to go on with diplomacy to solve conflicts, and not just think in terms of another <deleted> war. I am sure that there are many Americans around who share that opinion.

[Pepe']

Abuse being hurled by some anonymous poster to another anonymous poster on an anonymous internet forum is normal, don't get upset or lose sleep over it.

It's only a forum, not gonna change your life is it ?

p---Fortunately you are not real. Just a temporary illusion that that agitates from your temporary home you call a mansion.

Pepe, how much did you lose, you never did answer the question as to why you are so bitter ?

p---In the beginning of the thread one of the first things I asked was not to continue your taunting.

p---I will ask one more time to stop it.

p---Money, sure itwas an issue, but only for a short time. My real losses though are things that you, I believe you cannot comprehend.

p--- In the ancient Pali texts it is described the demoniac men revel in the pain and suffering of others. Got demons?

Even though I have seen 'Platoon', 'Deerhunter', Full Metal Jacket' and 'Apocalypse Now', I choose not to respond to this thread.

p---You have said more than enough. However your record shows that you like to instigate and agitate. Old habits die hard, I understand. So I'm sure we can accept more of the same. Again fortunately you are not real. You a passing phantom an illusion that haunts for a little while and then evaporates like mist into oblivion.

p---I will be in Samut Sakorn for one month starting Thanksgiving. I would love to meet and buy you a beer. Illumination can beautiful thing.

[qwertz]

Unfortunately, going on with diplomacy only cuts the mustard with diplomatically minded people. With others, somebody eventually has to go in and kick ass. I don't think AQ and other assorted murderous scrotes are likely to respond to "How about we talk this out" any more than their vindictive financiers. Sh!t, I wouldn't believe anything that Blair says either. Imagine him sitting down with N. Korean and Iranian leaders; that would be a lie fest and a half. And I think MTW is talking a lot of sense if you take the time to read it through.

[aughie]

Let me ask this question. How different would Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos be today if the US hadn't bombed the living sh!t out of them all those years? How different would Central America be today if the US hadn't interfered in their affairs? How about the Middle East? How different would the USA be if the Pilgrims/Colonists who reached the east coast had integrated peacefully with the native inhabitants, who had been there there for centuries already, instead of massacring them? Something tells me it's a chain reaction and that possibly Thailand might be different if the US military hadn't come. One reason for the close US military involvement in Thailand was/is the close ties between the Monarchy of Thailand and the US.

If the USA hadn't made efforts to thwart communist movements worldwide the world would probably be communist with the Soviet model at it's head. Living under a Stalinist model, how would we all like that? Becaue who else was there to draw an example from at that time? China? They only killed 50 million of their own people. How many decades would it take for paranoid communist leaders, fearful of the treachery they knew they were capable of, to sort out the power grabbing before the "utopia" could have been reached? Who's bloodline here would have survived the purges?

I rmemebr the 80s, if the USA hadn't been so vigilant, I don't think we could have counted on Continental Europe not to rollover and allow a russian boot to the back of their necks. The UK stood a chance. They had the sense to vote in Maggie Thatcher. God Bless her. Will she get a statue or will London get yet another statue of Nelson Mandela?

A statue of Nelson Mandela would not be suitable for Trafalgar Square, a panel of art experts has said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3006663.stm

If you read a bit of Native American history you'll find some tribes had slavery and some would capture and then kill prisoners for theatre. Pilgrams weren't Americans. They were British. They manged to wipe out a good percentage of the coastal tribes before they revolted and became Americans, thank you.

p.s.

The Soviets weren't great stewards of the enviornment either.

Edited May 9, 2007 by aughie

[Pepe']

Let me ask this question. How different would Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos be today if the US hadn't bombed the living sh!t out of them all those years? How different would Central America be today if the US hadn't interfered in their affairs? How about the Middle East? How different would the USA be if the Pilgrims/Colonists who reached the east coast had integrated peacefully with the native inhabitants, who had been there there for centuries already, instead of massacring them? Something tells me it's a chain reaction and that possibly Thailand might be different if the US military hadn't come. One reason for the close US military involvement in Thailand was/is the close ties between the Monarchy of Thailand and the US.

If the USA hadn't made efforts to thwart communist movements worldwide the world would probably be communist with the Soviet model at it's head. Living under a Stalinist model, how would we all like that? Becaue who else was there to draw an example from at that time? China? They only killed 50 million of their own people. How many decades would it take for paranoid communist leaders, fearful of the treachery they knew they were capable of, to sort out the power grabbing before the "utopia" could have been reached? Who's bloodline here would have survived the purges?

I rmemebr the 80s, if the USA hadn't been so vigilant, I don't think we could have counted on Continental Europe not to rollover and allow a russian boot to the back of their necks. The UK stood a chance. They had the sense to vote in Maggie Thatcher. God Bless her. Will she get a statue or will London get yet another statue of Nelson Mandela?

A statue of Nelson Mandela would not be suitable for Trafalgar Square, a panel of art experts has said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3006663.stm

If you read a bit of Native American history you'll find some tribes had slavery and some would capture and then kill prisoners for theatre. Pilgrams weren't Americans. They were British. They manged to wipe out a good percentage of the coastal tribes before they revolted and became Americans, thank you.

p.s.

The Soviets weren't great stewards of the enviornment either.

-----------------------

That's a breath of fresh air, pun intended.

It's good to speak the truth isn't it.

Thanks

[aughie]

You're gracious to provide the opportunity. I'd like to add a bit of googling of postwar Vietnam.

It's difficult to determine what percentage of people fled Vietnam due to the Vietnam War and what percentage fled due to Chinese/Viet tensions. This US government website tells a clearer story of the ethnic chinese driven out as "boat people". The chinese were blamed for Vietnam's economic problems and the 1979 war with China compounded the problem. In 1984 there was another brief war with China. I may be wrong but it seems the majority of people who fled Vietnam as "boat people" in the early years were ethnic Chinese discriminated against by the Vietnamese government. That's a differnet story then people like to tell. They'd like me to believe it was due to the American war in Vietnam.

In March 1978, Vietnam nationalized the rice and other private consumer markets, and the number of people leaving Vietnam started increasing, a majority of them being ethnic Chinese businessmen and traders. This exodus was abetted by Vietnamese authorities pushing out some of the 1.5 million ethnic Chinese in both North and South Vietnam after blaming them for some of the country's economic problems. Many of them were subjected to "official harassment, property confiscation, and forced relocation to New Economic Zones." (Robinson, at 29.)

US Citizenship and Immigration Services

http://149.101.23.2/graphics/aboutus/history/july79.htm

Here are some dates I found while Googling:

1975 More than 130,000 refugees enter the U.S. from Vietnam, Kampuchea, and Laos as Communist governments are established there.

1975 - In the next few years, more than 1.5 million Vietnamese “boat people” flee by air and sea; many settle in US

1976 - Socialist Republic of Vietnam proclaimed. Saigon is re-named Ho Chi Minh City. Hundreds of thousands flee abroad, including many "boat people".

1976 Nov: The first Vietnames boat people arrive on Australia's northern shores (about 2000 between 1977 and 1981)

July 2, 1976: The National Assembly, at its first session, officially reunifies Vietnam (Capital: Hanoi), renames the country Socialist Republic of Vietnam and decides to elaborate a new constitution. Many people who supported the Saigon regime are sent to "re-education camps". Over the next years more than one million of Vietnamese and ethnic Chinese ("boat people") flee the country.

1978: More than 100,000 people flee Vietnam on boats ("boat people")

1979 - Vietnam invades Cambodia and ousts the Khmer Rouge regime of Pol Pot. In response, Chinese troops cross Vietnam's northern border. They are pushed back by Vietnamese forces. The number of "boat people" trying to leave Vietnam causes international concern.

1980 The Socialist Republic of Vietnam and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees set up an Orderly Departure Program to enable Vietnamese to emigrate legally.

In the early 1980s many Chinese and Sino-Vietnamese fled Vietnam, either to China or as ‘boat people’ to overseas countries, sharply boosting the statistics on people fleeing Vietnam since 1975.

Additional tidbits I discovered while searching Google.

From a UN url:

NOTES #10 at the bottom of the page: It is also a gross insult to hundreds of thousands of Laotians who have been massacred or compelled to take refuge abroad since the occupation of Laos by the Socialist Republic of Viet Nam, to the Hmong national minority in Laos, exterminated by Vietnamese conventional and chemical weapons and, finally, to over a million Vietnamese "boat people" who died at sea or sought refuge abroad in their flight to escape the repression carried out in Viet Nam by the Government of the Socialist Republic of Viet Nam.

http://untreaty.un.org/sample/EnglishInter...rIV/treaty1.htm

Australia and New Zealand: From 1989 to 1998, most of the boat people were Chinese and Sino-Vietnamese.

http://www.unescap.org/esid/psis/publicati...ps/06/chap1.pdf

[longway]

Other nations are critical of EVERY choice the USA makes and this is what stands out for me. When we "GO" somewhere, we are the <deleted>. When we don't "GO" somewhere, the question from the rest of the world is "WHY didn't you go there" or "WHY did it take so long"? Why did we not show up and save Rwanda? Why not here and there?

I will NEVER FORGET after the tsunami in Indonesia, the largest Muslim country in the world, seeing people on the news within hours, asking this exact question "WHERE IS AMERICA, WHY ARE THEY NOT HERE YET" and also seeing people wearing t-shirts with pictures of bin-Laden on them, getting aid from the US. Walking up to our aircraft and getting huge packages while wearing the most anti-American sentiment possible. And we gave it to them. Our people didn't say "okay you, but not you." Although I think they should have. I wouldn't give a grain of rice to a starving person who wore this kind of belief ... like saying: we are happy you all died in 9/11, but now, what can you give me for free? And we will still bomb you tomorrow if given the chance.

Why did we not see "WHERE IS Saudi Arabia?" questions? Why was nobody who got aid wearing shirts showing some image of a US President? Only those shirts got washed away from the waves?

Why does NOBODY call us "imperialist <deleted>" for "intervening" in WW2? I suppose the German losers didn't appreciate it. However, since they are on the unpopular side of things now, nobody says it. Does everyone forget the Iraq news showing people slapping the bottom of their shoes to Saddam's statues, pulling them down, celebrating his fall?

And who can honestly call Vietnam communist at this point? Yes they are facist but they are embracing and growing with leaps and bounds now that they are practicing a market economy.

And excuse me, but what countries in Europe, colonized most of the world, killed indiginous people through war or disease, much more than any "Americans" killed off the native Americans? And were those "Americans" really Americans or Europeans at that time?

Certainly when Americans went to fight foreign wars it was NOT so that we could control trade and slavery through those countries ... and let me ask what European country fought war/s only in order to free another group of people?

The bottom line seems to be this: When the USA is there, we are <deleted>. When we are NOT there, we are <deleted>.

And getting back to Thailand: What did the Prime Minister of Thailand, who has made billions of USDs contribute back to his own country for tsumani relief? And compare what some single American people contributed. And how much do you think Thai (of course only private people) contributed to Katrina disaster ... or any other countries for that matter?

Of course the USA is rich and doesn't need donations but what about donor fatigue? I am sure you have heard this term before but not in Thailand because Thai people can't possibly have this, since they never donate to anything, except temple things that will give them benefits in their other lives. You can't even expect Thai people to support charities in their own country that benefit tourism, and therefore, themselves. Or that only benefit themselves. Do you know about any animal charities that are supported from money or time by Thai people? How about the hilltribe people? Do Thai people, or even Asian people support them?

Why is it that Western people support animals and support/educate people who need help, and then this bring benefits to Thai people, who then use this benefit to make profits for only the super rich here? I am paying for the war in Iraq, and for all those people who think we are only there to make money from the oil business, what money have I made? I didn't cheer because I thought my country would be able to buy cheap gas, I cheered because Iraqi people cheered, and never gave my gas costs a thought.

Maybe we should take a world poll about where the rest of the world would like us to be and how we should spend our taxes? Let me guess, do you know what Thailand would say? Do you know what Cambodia would say? Do you know what Ethiopia would say? Where ever you chose, they would like the USA's money with them, and that means with the top 1/10th of a percent of people who are in power ... so they can go buy houses in Saint Tropez, in Malibu, in anyplace but where they are now. And so that they can buy Gulfstream 4s, and those same people will still pay their staff much lower than what we pay them, and treat them like slaves, and each country will still be poor.

If you want to be critical, why don't some of us "Western" people talk about the policies in other countires towards foreign labor? Why can some of the richest countires in the world import 3rd world workers and pay them the same 3rd world prices? Legally?

I paid my Salvadorian maid, who was at leat 50 years old and didn't speak 2 words of English (after more than 20 years in the USA), 10 USD an hour, and she still ruined most of my clothes in the washing. But she was able to buy a house, in Los Angeles, have a nice car, have 3- 4 children, pay insurance for everything, have major heart surgery for one of her kids (or not pay but get it for free, something I cannot get). She was able to support her old home and family in El Savador, save money for retirement, I also paid social security taxes, etc. for her. I recently watched a TV show about people in the middle east who have tons more money that I do, paying for maids from Sri Lanka, about $200 a month and they thought they were richer than hel_l and never wanted to go back to Sri Lanka.

I want to ask, why aren't some people complaining about things like this? Why do some rich coutntries have enforced policies to keep the poor people poor? Why do they not respect the rights of women? Do women even have rights in most of the world?

Why are there not more people complaining that Thai women have to sell themselves, or their childeren, in order to survive? Is it because you are benefiting from it?

Only America is supposedly getting ahead in the world from "cheap gas" but the rest of first world nations are not, and also they are also not getting ahead because of cheap women/wives/bargirls/prostitution? When you marry a Thai girl are you not getting a translator, maid, cook, advocate, all for the price of slave wages in our own country? Or even for the price of salve wages in Thailand?

Besides, who are all you "European" citizens waiting for to protect you if Iran, Noth Korea, goes nuts? Even the Russian mafia is taking over many cities. What are you prepared to do? Will YOU actually put on a uniform and go to war, whatever your age? Or will you depend on the young American soldiers to protect you?

id be more inclined to listen your whines about moronic us bashing if you didnt indulge yourself in so much moronic thai bashing yoruself. well actually you can add moronic rest of the world bashing to that too.

you act as if the us must be immune to all critism, sometimes the critics do have a point.

[Totster]

I'm sure someone will bring Thailand back into the discussion soon.....

Totster

[Pepe']

I started it, maybe I can finish it. IMHO I believe Thailand is far better off than it's surrounding neighbors due to the presence of the US in Thailand.

Don't get me wrong none of us are wearing halos. I have just heard it time and time again since the early seventies. Most Thais I have spoken with about this say they love the USA and they have always been glad to have a "special" relationship with us.

Because if you messed with Thailand you messed with the USA their big brother. That's the word on the street, not something I cooked up.

They also don't take it lightly that our beloved Majesty the King was born here in the US.

Long live the King!!!

Is that sentiment changing, absolutely. Just like here most Thai teens don't know which end is up or could care less about history, recent or ancient.

Old Chinese Curse

[Mighty Mouse]

I believe Thailand is far better off than it's surrounding neighbors due to the presence of the US in Thailand.

You may well be right. Unlike the Philippine nationals, when the Thais speak English they do so without an American accent. "Hey Joe...."