Thai Myths Website

[taxexile]

THAI MYTHS

and who are "usa for innovation" ?

[Prakanong]

THAI MYTHS

and who are "usa for innovation" ?

There is another thread about this

I think its probably funded by drug companies directly or its their PR companies using a fund paid to them by the pharma to spend as they see fit

Seems Thailand has not blocked it ;-))

[ovenman]

and who are "usa for innovation" ?

Probably some front for big pharma.

[A_Traveller]

Therre are enough links for even Reuters to describe the original usaforinnovation site as

"USA for Innovation appears to have indirect ties with Big Pharma, according to their web sites.

The group's executive director is Ken Adelman of Edelman Public Relations Worldwide, its Web site (www.usaforinnovation.org) said.

Edelman counted Abbott Laboratories as one of its largest clients, according to Edelman's corporate brochure found on its Web site (edelman.com) and was also hired by Thaksin after he was ousted." April 30

Subsequently Thaksin is supposed to have dropped Edelman PR.

A question, if this is a not for profit, should there not be a record of its set-up executives etc. on public record and if so anyone know where that might be accessible?

Regards

Kenneth Adelman Bio {though 'spun'}

/edit to add link//

Edited May 9, 2007 by A_Traveller

[GuestHouse]

Regardless of who funds 'USA for Innovation for Innovation', the challenges they make to the Thai myths remain pretty compelling.

The Thai government have a number of otions on this, refute the claims.

Back track and conform to their legal obligations.

Go into denial and/or block the website.

[A_Traveller]

Regardless of who funds 'USA for Innovation for Innovation', the challenges they make to the Thai myths remain pretty compelling.

The Thai government have a number of otions on this, refute the claims.

Back track and conform to their legal obligations.

Go into denial and/or block the website.

Hm..would you care to specify where the Thai authorities have breached the law on these matters?

Since the officials involved were in Switzerland {if memory serves} at the legal conference on TRIPS a few days before the first action one might assume that they had taken the time to ensure the legality of their action.

I am not aware of any suggestion of breaking the rules and laws pertaining to this.

edit One thing has just struck me, this reminds me of the case under TRIPS with South Africa in '99 or '00 with reference to AZT, anyone else recall this?.

Regards

PS There's another URL to the same site www.thailies.com !

Edited May 9, 2007 by A_Traveller

[nick2k]

Regardless of who funds 'USA for Innovation for Innovation', the challenges they make to the Thai myths remain pretty compelling.

The Thai government have a number of otions on this, refute the claims.

Back track and conform to their legal obligations.

Go into denial and/or block the website.

Hm..would you care to specify where the Thai authorities have breached the law on these matters?

Since the officials involved were in Switzerland {if memory serves} at the legal conference on TRIPS a few days before the first action one might assume that they had taken the time to ensure the legality of their action.

I am not aware of any suggestion of breaking the rules and laws pertaining to this.

edit One thing has just struck me, this reminds me of the case under TRIPS with South Africa in '99 or '00 with reference to AZT, anyone else recall this?.

Regards

PS There's another URL to the same site www.thailies.com !

let's see... where to start?

like many other countries, thailand agreed to respect IP before the usa and many other western countries would bring their factories here, and teach the local people how to make the stuff whatever it might be.

then, thailand changed their mind.

the patent system was created to help the creation of new innovations. inventors were willing to document in detail how to recreate their inventions in return for the promise of reward. before the patent system, you had inventors who kept the processes they used to recreate their inventions - secret.

the old sorcerer and apprentice/ master and apprentice scenario prevailed in the past. this old system wasn't exactly the free sharing information age that you had in the last century that created the climate of innovation where everybody shared in knowledge.

an apprentice was lucky to learn his master's secrets before he died.

the patent system is very important for innovation.

many countries don't understand the implications of what they are doing when they steal the drugs.

if this scenario becomes the norm, innovation and the sharing of knowledge will stop. nobody will want to let you in on their secrets anymore. ..why should they? no reason to.

it will be the old master/apprentice relationship again. and mankind will suffer.

[dave111223]

Both http://thaimyths.com/ and http://thailies.com/ ask me for a login/password? (Even using a proxy?)

What gives, what are they?

[A_Traveller]

Regardless of who funds 'USA for Innovation for Innovation', the challenges they make to the Thai myths remain pretty compelling.

The Thai government have a number of otions on this, refute the claims.

Back track and conform to their legal obligations.

Go into denial and/or block the website.

Hm..would you care to specify where the Thai authorities have breached the law on these matters?

Since the officials involved were in Switzerland {if memory serves} at the legal conference on TRIPS a few days before the first action one might assume that they had taken the time to ensure the legality of their action.

I am not aware of any suggestion of breaking the rules and laws pertaining to this.

edit One thing has just struck me, this reminds me of the case under TRIPS with South Africa in '99 or '00 with reference to AZT, anyone else recall this?.

Regards

PS There's another URL to the same site www.thailies.com !

let's see... where to start?

like many other countries, thailand agreed to respect IP before the usa and many other western countries would bring their factories here, and teach the local people how to make the stuff whatever it might be. Incorrect, the approach both with WTO and the preceding GATT was that each sovereign nation agreed to the application of the laws enshrined within the agreements often described as the [place] round. Thailand is a Founder Member of the WTO joining in Jan 1 1995. Under these laws each country agreed to manage trade and to use the WTO process to arbitrate trade disputes, which by the by, the US has not raised this matter with the WTO, nor WIPCO since it is not a dispute, given that Thailand has acted within the letter of the law.

then, thailand changed their mind. See above

the patent system was created to help the creation of new innovations. inventors were willing to document in detail how to recreate their inventions in return for the promise of reward. before the patent system, you had inventors who kept the processes they used to recreate their inventions - secret.

the old sorcerer and apprentice/ master and apprentice scenario prevailed in the past. this old system wasn't exactly the free sharing information age that you had in the last century that created the climate of innovation where everybody shared in knowledge.

an apprentice was lucky to learn his master's secrets before he died.

the patent system is very important for innovation. The grant and enforcement of patents are governed by the laws of the sovereign nation, and also by international treaties, where those treaties have been given effect in national laws. Patents are, therefore, territorial in nature. TRIPS is an enabling process designed expressly to provide a level of international concordance. Further WIPCO is the UN body charged with managing international issues in this area.

many countries don't understand the implications of what they are doing when they steal the drugs. To steal, by definition requires an illegal act, and no such act has been perpetrated in these events. This assertion is therefore is incorrect.

if this scenario becomes the norm, innovation and the sharing of knowledge will stop. nobody will want to let you in on their secrets anymore. ..why should they? no reason to. The real scenario is that the law is being applied.

it will be the old master/apprentice relationship again. and mankind will suffer.

There is also something else to understand here, that was my real question, who is spending, by my estimates several hundred thousand dollars on creating and marketing this site? Note its target, the 'military'. Ironically, I have real deep concerns about this country and what is happening here, but this is a side show of a side show.

Contrary to many peoples impression, the WTO does not limit the grounds on which a country can use compulsory licenses. For example, compulsory licenses are not limited to cases of national emergencies. Indeed, countries can and do issue compulsory licenses (or government use of a patent) for a wide range of purposes. In cases of "national emergency or other circumstances of extreme urgency," as well as in "cases of public non-commercial use," or when there is a "need to correct anti-competitive practices," countries are not required to negotiate with patent owners. In all other cases, there has to be a prior attempt to negotiate a license "on reasonable commercial terms and conditions." In most cases, patent owners must be paid "adequate remuneration" for the use of a patent. However, in cases where the license is needed to correct anticompetitive practices, royalties can be as low as zero. Other conditions on compulsory licensing are set out in Article 31. Decisions regarding the amount of compensation are made under the legal system of the country issuing the compulsory license. Thus, under the WTO rules, the royalty on a license for a drug {or relevant product} would be set by the Thai government, according to the Thai government's own legal system.

TRIPS is a complex piece of legislation, and as in all laws there are areas that could be improved. That should be the target for NGO's and 'not for profits', thereby ensuring that the law protects those in need of protection and provides due process in a timely manner to those who can show just cause.

The law has not been broken, some may not like that but that's the truth.

Regards

PS I'm not being asked for a password, though now thaimyths {& thailies} leads me to the US4IN page and clicking on myths loops me back to US4IN. 23:10 Looks like it's changed again both sites are available without proxy but pages fail, so guess it's a work in progress.

/edit add PS //

Edited May 9, 2007 by A_Traveller

[sriracha john]

This www.ThaiLies.com is only surpassed on the BS meter by www.hi-thaksin.net

That Thaksin is connected to both comes as no surprise.

[nick2k]

law or no law. what will happen is the inventors will not trust the patent system anymore. which means they will not tell anybody how they make their "secret" inventions. they will go back to the master/apprentice scenario where other people will have to pay dearly in time, money, or both just to get them to part with their secrets.

these people who are (in my opinion) stealing these drugs are too short-minded to understand what they are doing. yes, they will be able to help "some" people for a few years. but when a new drug is needed, it won't be there anymore for them. ..at least not for the price they want.

yes, definitely short sighted.

[A_Traveller]

law or no law!

Law is all we have, it is what separates us from the beasts, be they noble or ignoble.

If you don't like the law then petition your government, take affirmative action as a citizen. Use your rights, many do not have that opportunity, many would say that privilege, choose to use it for their good as well as yours, since humans are primarily cooperative species. It is surprising what an individual can do within their own society today.

One thing that is true is that the patent system is desperately in need of a sensible managed through review, WIPCO may offer just such a venue for that opportunity though that is, as they say another topic entirely.

Regards

[nick2k]

law or no law!

Law is all we have, it is what separates us from the beasts, be they noble or ignoble.

If you don't like the law then petition your government, take affirmative action as a citizen. Use your rights, many do not have that opportunity, many would say that privilege, choose to use it for their good as well as yours, since humans are primarily cooperative species. It is surprising what an individual can do within their own society today.

One thing that is true is that the patent system is desperately in need of a sensible managed through review, WIPCO may offer just such a venue for that opportunity though that is, as they say another topic entirely.

Regards

you are misinterpreting what I am trying to explain.

inventors are the ones who make the inventions. they are the ones who have the knowledge in their mind to give to others as they please. if for whatever reason, they don't want to share their knowledge with others, they don't have to. you could make a law saying the he MUST tell his secrets to everybody. but he still doesn't have to tell you. frankly, if I was an inventor and someone told me to give up my secrets when I didn't want to. I would rather die than give them up.

this is the scenario we are dealing with.

do you understand my post now?

in the past, before the existent of the patent system, this is the way life was. you had masters of all the different trades be them commerce, kung <deleted>, etc. and apprentices would be hired or "accepted" by the masters to assist them in their work. apprentices were usually treated like slaves, and offered very little in compensation for all their hard work. the only thing the apprentice looked forward to for all their hard work - was the possibility that the master would teach them something.

the way thailand is acting right now is as if the apprentices are rebelling against the masters telling them in a forceful manner - either you give us your secrets or ELSE.

hehehe. like who do you think is going to win? the master or the apprentice? actually, both will lose. the apprentice will not get his knowledge, and the master will be dead. the master in this situation being the patent system.

thailand and brazil are acting very stupid.

[wintermute]

hehehe. like who do you think is going to win? the master or the apprentice? actually, both will lose. the apprentice will not get his knowledge, and the master will be dead. the master in this situation being the patent system.

thailand and brazil are acting very stupid.

The "master" in this case is the completely dominant economy that could levy punitive tariffs on Thailand for this nonsense. I have a feeling that the U.S. Congress is reaching its limits when it comes to countries who pull this stunt and still expect special U.S. treatment in trade affairs. The longterm result for this will not be pretty for Thailand.

[mittheimp]

I dont pretend to really understand the issue but this is an interesting article. from the BBC

Edited May 10, 2007 by sbk
please include name of source as well as link

[mmushr00m]

We had something like this happen in Canada a few years ago. Alot of US pensioners etc were coming up north to get their meds. The meds here were cheaper as the govt control prices and allows the production of generic meds. So instead of paying full US prices, these ppl were getting their meds anywhere from 80-50%.off

Next thing you know..The Big Pharm were in full attack mode...Canadian Meds unsafe!!!! Does not undergo rigid US testing!!!! We will cut you off!!!! Revoke all licensing!!! Socialist State with price control!!! Then the US Congress weight in, investigations (not into high US prices) into low canadian price, quality etc etc.

So this is no surprise to me and their arguement is always going to be...innovation cost money, so the drugs are expensive as the company needs to recoup the money. if the money stops, innovation stops......

[sriracha john]

Battle in cyberspace

If you've just visited www.Thailies.com, you might be surprised at the international cyber-media offensive is being played out against the Public Health Ministry as it struggles to make an imported Aids drug cheaper for patients in Thailand.

It took a clever US lobbyist to devise the strategy and do the work aimed at discrediting the Thai agency's controversial bid, which has severely upset the powerful US pharmaceutical industry.

Last week, Brazil sort of followed Thailand's footsteps when it announced it would also do "compulsory licensing" of a patented Aids medicine legally under World Trade Organisation rules.

Now, both nations are being seen as "bad boys" in the eyes of USA for Innovation, a non-profit unit said to champion the protection of intellectual property rights.

After discrediting the Public Health Ministry's bid with an initial posting of what it calls 10 "Thai Myths", the USA-for-Innovation-sponsored website has said it will release more information to back its accusations over the next two weeks.

"Thailand's Health Ministry is misleading politicians, press and patients in an attempt to gain support from misinformed activists and to funnel money into its government-owned drug company," says the website.

The website's strongly-worded accusations such as Thailand is not a poor country or that the country is not in the middle of an Aids crisis (so it could not justify the compulsory licensing argument) clearly demonstrates that it wants to woo international support against Thailand's bid.

Besides the so-called Thai myths, USA for Innovation also invites its supporters to write to the US president complaining about the compulsory licensing issue along with the absence of democracy following the coup on September 19, 2006.

Supporters are given a pre-written letter, to be undersigned, urging the US president to stand up to the Thai military.

"... I hope that you will deliver a message to the Minister of Health and the military leaders in Thailand that a continued departure from democracy and theft of American innovations will not be tolerated, and that the United States will move quickly to take retaliatory action in the form of trade or economic sanctions or the removal of military aid to protect the jobs of hundreds of thousands of American scientists, doctors, teachers and researchers," says the pre-written letter.

USA for Innovation also urges its supporters to write to the Thai ambassador to the US on the same issue.

Last but not least, Kenneth L Adelman, executive director of USA for Innovation, wrote in a May 9 letter to members of the US Congress urging them to take action against both Thailand and Brazil over the compulsory licensing issue.

So stay tuned for the next development.

- The Nation

[cclub75]

Well... propaganda for propaganda... thai gvt is doing good too.

The Foreign Ministry countered the claims on its website.

http://www.mfa.go.th/web/2465.php?id=20012

A very nice text... full of semi lies and approximations.

One example.

-"First, the use of CL is permissible under the Trade Related Aspects of Intellectual Properties (TRIPs) Agreement. So, our action is WTO consistent"

Hum... But how "consistent" ?

Take a look at this official WTO document, that explains TRIPs Agreement for health...

http://www.wto.org/English/thewto_e/minist...ecl_trips_e.htm

"5c Each member has the right to determine what constitutes a national emergency or other circumstances of extreme urgency, it being understood that public health crises, including those relating to HIV/AIDS, tuberculosis, malaria and other epidemics, can represent a national emergency or other circumstances of extreme urgency."

So to sum'up :

-yes technically, Thailand can define what constitue a national emergency.

-however, WTO members were clear as for the spirit of their agreement : a health emergency is related to epidemics and extreme urgency.

It would be ridiculous to define sexual impotence as an emergency for instance...

So when Thailand bypass IP rights for HIV drugs, it could be okay... However, to do the same for Plavix, a drug that "help keep platelets from sticking together and forming clots" and that is given to people after a heart attack... does not respect the spirit of the WTO agreement.

Heart attacks and strokes are not epidemics. They are life style diseases (fat food, no sport etc.)

Edited May 10, 2007 by cclub75

[Prakanong]

Well... propaganda for propaganda... thai gvt is doing good too.

The Foreign Ministry countered the claims on its website.

http://www.mfa.go.th/web/2465.php?id=20012

A very nice text... full of semi lies and approximations.

One example.

-"First, the use of CL is permissible under the Trade Related Aspects of Intellectual Properties (TRIPs) Agreement. So, our action is WTO consistent"

Hum... But how "consistent" ?

Take a look at this official WTO document, that explains TRIPs Agreement for health...

http://www.wto.org/English/thewto_e/minist...ecl_trips_e.htm

"5c Each member has the right to determine what constitutes a national emergency or other circumstances of extreme urgency, it being understood that public health crises, including those relating to HIV/AIDS, tuberculosis, malaria and other epidemics, can represent a national emergency or other circumstances of extreme urgency."

So to sum'up :

-yes technically, Thailand can define what constitue a national emergency.

-however, WTO members were clear as for the spirit of their agreement : a health emergency is related to epidemics and extreme urgency.

It would be ridiculous to define sexual impotence as an emergency for instance...

So when Thailand bypass IP rights for HIV drugs, it could be okay... However, to do the same for Plavix, a drug that "help keep platelets from sticking together and forming clots" and that is given to people after a heart attack... does not respect the spirit of the WTO agreement.

Heart attacks and strokes are not epidemics. They are life style diseases (fat food, no sport etc.)

I totally agree and argued the same in the other threads - even Colypat did too and he is no friend of big pharma.

Thailand had a case for HIV bit not for the other one and doing so has weakened its argument and left itself open.

If anybody should be making CL's for heart drugs it should be Scotland leading the way ;-)))

Edited May 10, 2007 by Prakanong

[dominique355]

hehehe. like who do you think is going to win? the master or the apprentice? actually, both will lose. the apprentice will not get his knowledge, and the master will be dead. the master in this situation being the patent system.

thailand and brazil are acting very stupid.

The "master" in this case is the completely dominant economy that could levy punitive tariffs on Thailand for this nonsense. I have a feeling that the U.S. Congress is reaching its limits when it comes to countries who pull this stunt and still expect special U.S. treatment in trade affairs. The longterm result for this will not be pretty for Thailand.

And how about the expropriation of a patent belonging to Novartis, a Swiss pharmaceutical company? Switzerland: 7 Million inhabitants, Thailand: 70 Million? Who is here the giant and who is the dwarf?

Basically this question of compulsory license is a fight between a (non-elected) government against private industry. The non-elect government has to report to no-one, has no legal and no legitimate background and claims "national emergency" for each and every step it makes, from censorship to expropriation, from influencing stock market to bringing tanks into the capital.

While the US based private industry can count on its government for support, the Swiss company has no such support at all, not from its government, not form the public and has to just endure the abuse of power.

Whatever is the interpretation of a "national emergency", the Thai government has done little to nothing to explain where it sees this emergency and I would believe everybody agrees that there simply is no national emergency in the case of the heart disease drug.

The Thai government and in particular the Ministry of Health is doing a good job in upholding Thailand's reputation as a country with no respect for Intellectual Property Rights.

[Prakanong]

I would like to see figures for the numbers actually on the heart drug

The cynic in me thinks that someone in the junta or close to it wanted free drugs for him or his family ;-)))

I doubt many outside BKK or 2 or 3 other places were using it ;-))