Is relevant Immigration Office obligated to accept "[ MEAN ] AVERAGE Income of THB 40,000 per Mnt. for preceding 12 Mnt.s" Condition -- communicated in document by that very Office to Applicant -- as being satisfied if it proven as met by Applicant ?

[Our Man in the Tropics]

Dear Fellow Thaivisa.com Posters,

 

Ref.

TITLE ;

Is relevant Immigration Office obligated to accept "[ MEAN ] AVERAGE Income of THB 40,000 per Mnt. for preceding 12 Mnt.s" Condition -- communicated in document by that very Office to Applicant -- as being satisfied if it proven as met by Applicant ?

 

THE CONTENTS OF ABOVE TITLE IS BASICALLY THE ESSENCE OF THE ORIGINAL POST ;

HERE BE THE TITLE RE-PHRASED FOR YER ADDED CONVENIENCE ;

Surely an Immigration Office's own written communication to the Applicant that "THE PER MONTH INCOME -- demonstratively sourced from overseas into Thailand -- THROUGHOUT THE 12 MONTHS LEADING UP TO THE APPLICATION BE ON AVERAGE THB 40,000" [ or words-to-that-effect ] obligates that Immigration Office to accept that condition of the Application as being satisfied if it is proven as met by the Applicant ?

 

Regards,

 

Our Man in the Tropics

 

 

 

[ubonjoe]

Most offices will not accept a average income of 40k baht.

I think they may be of the opinion that it only applies if your are legally working here and using your income from it to do the application.

[FritsSikkink]

Just in general, they could claim that the person who wrote something to you was overruled by a superior.

[Our Man in the Tropics]

2 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Most offices will not accept a average income of 40k baht.

I think they may be of the opinion that it only applies if your are legally working here and using your income from it to do the application.

 

As ever, when seeking information,- the response to information supplied, & unbiased-opinion given too, from basis of deep study, & long experience, of the field, one should be appreciative of such replies.

Even if the response is not hopeful for the obvious wishes of the enquirer.

So,- thank u anyway Ubonjoe for ur kind interest in this question.

 

Still, for basis of getting Extension of Stay following Entry with Non-Immigrant Visa "Type O" given for Reason of Visiting a Thai child,- this is an option in that written communication ;

And,- it stands to reason per this Visa, & the Permission of Stay, & Extension of Permission to Stay, respectively given thereof, that the income cannot be sourced from "within" Thailand ;

Although,- one can earn income in Thailand from an occupation upon having 12 Month Extension of Stay to Entry based on this particular Visa & Permission of Stay combination.

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

In regard to that opinion speculated as perhaps guiding the offices that state they accept average income of THB 40k,

viz.

"_ _ _ they may be of the opinion that it only applies if you are legally working here and using your income from it to do the application." ;

 

in my own case, during immediately previous visit, a very senior officer confirmed that upon I providing proof of average income  per month arriving from overseas for preceding 12 months,- they will gladly accept that condition as being fulfilled ;

Yet, upon returning to the office with the proof,- certain lower rank staff rejected the proof ;

Actually based on their use of their calculator ;

They claim that my average income per month is below that THB 40k minimum.

 

Still,- I am concerned that the office may refuse further efforts to obtain their agreement that the prospective application fulfills this particular income requirement condition option in that they may simply ignore their own written policy that evidence of e.g. pension yearly [ 12 month  ( "preceding" is understood as the most stringent per that qualification ) ] averaging THB 40k per month.

Were they to do that,- would that be permissible within the department's rules, & the law[s], & the spirit of the law[s] too, & the duties of "fairness" & "care" inter alia ?

 

Regards,

 

Our Man in the Tropics

 

 

[UKresonant]

When I was practicing for such an event, as a conclusion on read very many posts, Embassy info, individuals info (though sometimes second hand)

 

 

I would have to send over >40k to the account in Thailand, every month, by online transfer, but activated manually the 1st or 2nd each month. method showed on statement as SWIFT i.e from overseas.

The transfers would be last calendar year's pension or previous ie. from savings. I would not intend to send in (Calendar) year income to Thailand. 

I could demonstrate sufficient UK income as legitimate source, but it does not align with the Calendar month, more like 25th of the the average month, to the 25th of the next month and some is quarterly or not uniform. 

 

I had not much confidence they would accept the average. I read a report of someone also using a £FCD account, and being rejected because the spot exchange rate was 200baht to low for one of 12 months. 

I suppose you would just have to try an engage with them in soft & cuddly mode, if in argumentative mode they will just go in the huff and reject.

If you have 12 plus transfers of similar value, and they are more totalling than 480k baht, I suppose it comes down to the officers training, personal attitude and that of his Boss....

 

I remain apprehensive about approaching any immigration in the future, though I've never seen a bad report on what could be the local office though. 

 

I wish you Good luck and tranquility  with your application

[soi3eddie]

6 hours ago, Our Man in the Tropics said:

 

As ever, when seeking information,- the response to information supplied, & unbiased-opinion given too, from basis of deep study, & long experience, of the field, one should be appreciative of such replies.

Even if the response is not hopeful for the obvious wishes of the enquirer.

So,- thank u anyway Ubonjoe for ur kind interest in this question.

 

Still, for basis of getting Extension of Stay following Entry with Non-Immigrant Visa "Type O" given for Reason of Visiting a Thai child,- this is an option in that written communication ;

And,- it stands to reason per this Visa, & the Permission of Stay, & Extension of Permission to Stay, respectively given thereof, that the income cannot be sourced from "within" Thailand ;

Although,- one can earn income in Thailand from an occupation upon having 12 Month Extension of Stay to Entry based on this particular Visa & Permission of Stay combination.

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

In regard to that opinion speculated as perhaps guiding the offices that state they accept average income of THB 40k,

viz.

"_ _ _ they may be of the opinion that it only applies if you are legally working here and using your income from it to do the application." ;

 

in my own case, during immediately previous visit, a very senior officer confirmed that upon I providing proof of average income  per month arriving from overseas for preceding 12 months,- they will gladly accept that condition as being fulfilled ;

Yet, upon returning to the office with the proof,- certain lower rank staff rejected the proof ;

Actually based on their use of their calculator ;

They claim that my average income per month is below that THB 40k minimum.

 

Still,- I am concerned that the office may refuse further efforts to obtain their agreement that the prospective application fulfills this particular income requirement condition option in that they may simply ignore their own written policy that evidence of e.g. pension yearly [ 12 month  ( "preceding" is understood as the most stringent per that qualification ) ] averaging THB 40k per month.

Were they to do that,- would that be permissible within the department's rules, & the law[s], & the spirit of the law[s] too, & the duties of "fairness" & "care" inter alia ?

 

Regards,

 

Our Man in the Tropics

 

 

 

It appears that Ubonjoe addressed your rather lenthy question as accurately as possible.

 

I do know there's a rule about Grammar Police here on TVF but what about Plain English Police? I think the OP must either be a lawyer or writer of terms and conditions.  "respectively given thereof," & "further efforts to obtain their agreement that the prospective application fulfills this particular income requirement condition option" are a couple of examples. Could you please try to get to your point in an easier to understand way so that help or advice may be given?

 

[Our Man in the Tropics]

Dear Soi3Eddie,

 

Even I empathize with u encountering posts written with elegant mindfulness to the law ;

As are my posts above.

 

However, to accurately convey the essential information "as briefly as possible" & "with as simple as language as possible", & "with as much avoidance of legalese as possible [ the word 'thereof' being the only such legalese ]",- it was necessary to compose the question as I have done.

 

Meanwhile,- I am glad that u fully understand the opening post of this thread despite it being for u rather lengthy ;

Ref.

40 minutes ago, soi3eddie said:

It appears that Ubonjoe addressed your rather lenthy question as accurately as possible.

 

Notwithstanding that I returned in my next post to give a particular category which is outside of a general, & common, context that Ubonjoe referred to, but which still is within the mother category of my opening post.

 

Please indulge me in my "necessary" use of this style of composition towards the matter in hand ;

This topic has great important relevance to me, & in general to many foreigners / aliens too, needing to be here for the rearing of their children [ mostly the case that the child is dual Thai-Foreign ] but having their only income sourced from outside of Thailand.

 

Regards,

 

Our Man in the Tropics

[Our Man in the Tropics]

Dear UKresonant,

 

Thank u for ur very useful & relevant & kind post ;

 

However,- I am confused with some of the content.

 

Content which I am confused by ;

 

1st

 

13 hours ago, UKresonant said:

I would have to send over >40k to the account in Thailand, every month, by online transfer, but activated manually the 1st or 2nd each month

2nd

13 hours ago, UKresonant said:

but it does not align with the Calendar month, more like 25th of the the average month, to the 25th of the next month

3rd

13 hours ago, UKresonant said:

and some is quarterly or not uniform

 

I understand the logic of u intending to send, from ur own funds, & ur own control, some amount > THB 40,000 from outside Thailand into Thailand every month

 

BUT -- BUT -- BUT

 

Ref.

Sequential Extracts of Quoted Text from U [ above ]

I do not satisfactorily for myself understand what u mean when u say :

 

"_ _ _ activated manually the 1st or 2nd each month"

FOLLOWED BY

"but it does not align with the Calendar month"

 

Surely, I ask, u would send the funds to align in most instances [ see note below Re ; 28 days Payments as example ] with calendar month regardless if ur particular immigration office uses "Average" Amount per Month policy ?

 

That ur funds align [ as incoming ] on 25th of each month then is troubling to accept from the all-controlling SWIFT system

 

Moreover that some other issues of this funds transfer align quarterly [ understood as 90 days in this context I argue ] is even more troubling to accept from the controversial SWIFT system

 

And,- the "some is" " _ _ _ not uniform"

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

 

That the incoming amounts, from say a  pension, arrive into ur Thai account on different dates  within each month is perfectly understandable ;

Such payments are normally "per 7 days payments" but more likely "per 28 days payments".

 

Were a pension from the foreign government, or 3rd party private body, strictly "per month" payments ;

==> u would be getting cheated for every month which has 31 days [ 7 months in total ], & u would be arguably cheating back during the month February.

Ditto were the funds from rental income.

 

Ref.

Per 28 Days Payments

Being payed every 28 days ==> the date within each month will shorten in most instances from the immediately previous month ;

Because 28 days is < than 30 days & indeed 31 days ;

 

And, inherent within the pattern of every 28 days entry of ur payment ;

In some instances u will receive 2 payments within the same calendar month

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

OF COURSE, IT MAY BE ALSO THE CASE THAT UR WONDERFUL CIVIL SERVANT[S] IN THE SENDING COUNTRY MAY NOT SEND UR PAYMENT ON TIME ;

INTENTIONALLY

or

UNINTENTIONALLY

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

NOTE ;

Interlocutors would be BETTER to use the term

"12 M-O-N-T-H-S" [ Months ] Visa / Permission of Stay / Extension to Permission of Stay

INSTEAD OF

1 "Y-E-A-R" [ Year ] Visa / Permission of Stay / Extension to Permission of Stay

 

BUT -- BUT -- BUT

Interlocutors would be BEST to use the term

"365* D-A-Y-S" [ Days ] Visa / Permission of Stay / Extension to Permission of Stay

*I wonder ; What is policy for leap years & each year adjacent to leap year ?

INSTEAD OF

1 "Y-E-A-R" [ Year ] Visa / Permission of Stay / Extension to Permission of Stay

OR EVEN INSTEAD OF

"12 M-O-N-T-H-S" [ Months ] Visa / Permission of Stay / Extension to Permission of Stay

 

Regards,

 

Our Man in the Tropics

[cleopatra2]

19 hours ago, Our Man in the Tropics said:

 

As ever, when seeking information,- the response to information supplied, & unbiased-opinion given too, from basis of deep study, & long experience, of the field, one should be appreciative of such replies.

Even if the response is not hopeful for the obvious wishes of the enquirer.

So,- thank u anyway Ubonjoe for ur kind interest in this question.

 

Still, for basis of getting Extension of Stay following Entry with Non-Immigrant Visa "Type O" given for Reason of Visiting a Thai child,- this is an option in that written communication ;

And,- it stands to reason per this Visa, & the Permission of Stay, & Extension of Permission to Stay, respectively given thereof, that the income cannot be sourced from "within" Thailand ;

Although,- one can earn income in Thailand from an occupation upon having 12 Month Extension of Stay to Entry based on this particular Visa & Permission of Stay combination.

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

In regard to that opinion speculated as perhaps guiding the offices that state they accept average income of THB 40k,

viz.

"_ _ _ they may be of the opinion that it only applies if you are legally working here and using your income from it to do the application." ;

 

in my own case, during immediately previous visit, a very senior officer confirmed that upon I providing proof of average income  per month arriving from overseas for preceding 12 months,- they will gladly accept that condition as being fulfilled ;

Yet, upon returning to the office with the proof,- certain lower rank staff rejected the proof ;

Actually based on their use of their calculator ;

They claim that my average income per month is below that THB 40k minimum.

 

Still,- I am concerned that the office may refuse further efforts to obtain their agreement that the prospective application fulfills this particular income requirement condition option in that they may simply ignore their own written policy that evidence of e.g. pension yearly [ 12 month  ( "preceding" is understood as the most stringent per that qualification ) ] averaging THB 40k per month.

Were they to do that,- would that be permissible within the department's rules, & the law[s], & the spirit of the law[s] too, & the duties of "fairness" & "care" inter alia ?

 

Regards,

 

Our Man in the Tropics

 

 

To summarise : The immigration have rejected your claim / evidence of income of 40,000 per month for 12 months.

 

 

 

[Our Man in the Tropics]

36 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

To summarise : The immigration have rejected your claim / evidence of income of 40,000 per month for 12 months.

 

No true ;

Rather,-

My claim with evidence is of Income AVERAGING > THB 40,000 per Month for preceding 12 Months.

 

True ;

Immigration rejected my claim with evidence because they calculate that my Income does NOT average > = THB 40,000 per Month for preceding 12 Months.

But,- they are mistaken with :

A_

their input into their calculator

& / or

B_

their calculator calculations.

[ubonjoe]

27 minutes ago, Our Man in the Tropics said:

Immigration rejected my claim with evidence because they calculate that my Income does NOT average > = THB 40,000 per Month for preceding 12 Months.

Not sure how they could make a mistake. 

Total up your international transfers each month for the year and divide by 12.

[treetops]

18 hours ago, Our Man in the Tropics said:

However, to accurately convey the essential information "as briefly as possible" . . . . .  it was necessary to compose the question as I have done.

 

Utter tripe.  You could have effectively conveyed the message in two or three sentences.

[faraday]

Moved to the Mental Health subforum.

 

Yea, I know you'll delete my comment Joe, but it is funny, na?

[Tanoshi]

5 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Not sure how they could make a mistake. 

Easy they lose track of the number of entries and only enter 11 transfers, then divide by 12.

Seen it happen.

 

 

[KannikaP]

How difficult is it to send a fixed amount (40k, 65k) to your Thai bank on roughly the same day of each month, for each of the 12 months in a year, get a letter from your bank confirming this once a year, and showing it to your Immigration Officer?

[Tanoshi]

5 hours ago, Our Man in the Tropics said:

Immigration rejected my claim with evidence because they calculate that my Income does NOT average > = THB 40,000 per Month for preceding 12 Months.

 

According to the orders;

 

(6) In the case of marriage to a Thai woman, the alien husband must earn an average annual
income of no less than Baht 40,000 per month

[Tanoshi]

4 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

How difficult is it to send a fixed amount (40k, 65k) to your Thai bank on roughly the same day of each month, for each of the 12 months in a year, get a letter from your bank confirming this once a year, and showing it to your Immigration Officer?

Quite difficult if you don't maintain a bank account in your home Country.

 

The UK state pension is paid every 28 days and they can transfer direct to your Thai bank account.

Similarly a private pension paid quarterly direct into your Thai bank.

When UK citizens could obtain Embassy Income letters this was never an issue.

[Hayduke]

6 hours ago, Our Man in the Tropics said:

Immigration rejected my claim

 

That’s all? It’s kind of surprising you didn’t get arrested, deported and blacklisted.

 

 

[KannikaP]

1 minute ago, Tanoshi said:

Quite difficult if you don't maintain a bank account in your home Country.

 

The UK state pension is paid every 28 days and they can transfer direct to your Thai bank account.

Similarly a private pension paid quarterly direct into your Thai bank.

When UK citizens could obtain Embassy Income letters this was never an issue.

My UK State pension is paid WEEKLY into the bank I nominate, and I can also say how often and to where my private one is paid.

A good idea would be to open a Transferwise Borderless Account, no UK address needed. Makes the monthly transfer even easier.

[Golden Triangle]

Sorry I got bored with this rubbish already, bye.

[KannikaP]

5 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Not sure how they could make a mistake. 

Total up your international transfers each month for the year and divide by 12.

But Joe, you said in post no2 that AVERAGING is not accepted at most IOs, and that's what you are suggesting. Six months say 20k, next six months 60k = average of 40k, but not accepatable. Does it not have to be a MINIMUM of 40k.

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

But Joe, you said in post no2 that AVERAGING is not accepted at most IOs, and that's what you are suggesting. Six months say 20k, next six months 60k = average of 40k, but not accepatable. Does it not have to be a MINIMUM of 40k.

I am aware of many office not accepting the average income based upon posts on this forum.

I don't think your example would be accepted. I would say the range would need be between 35k to 45k for example.

[Tanoshi]

13 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

My UK State pension is paid WEEKLY into the bank I nominate, and I can also say how often and to where my private one is paid.

A good idea would be to open a Transferwise Borderless Account, no UK address needed. Makes the monthly transfer even easier.

There are many elderly retirees in Thailand that can't use a PC and think the 'Internet' is a railway system.

[saakura]

21 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

When UK citizens could obtain Embassy Income letters this was never an issue.

That was stopped for a good reason, along with the zero dollar Chinese tours ????????

[Tanoshi]

1 minute ago, ubonjoe said:

I am aware of many office not accepting the average income based upon posts on this forum.

I don't think your example would be accepted. I would say the range would need be between 35k to 45k for example.

I think many Immigration offices read that as an average annual income of no less than 40K per month.

The average annual income could be 500K, but one transfer of less than 40K would disqualify you.

[KannikaP]

5 minutes ago, saakura said:

That was stopped for a good reason, along with the zero dollar Chinese tours ????????

What was that reason please?

[Old Croc]

After time spent in the tropics most tend to pare down their rhetoric and communicate in a much simpler manner.

[Our Man in the Tropics]

On 1/6/2021 at 11:35 AM, ubonjoe said:

Not sure how they could make a mistake. 

Total up your international transfers each month for the year and divide by 12.

 

I brought certified Thai bank statement demonstratively showing my income arriving from a foreign country ;

By the way,- it is a pension.

 

And,- I brought along 1 sheet of paper with each of the income-entries compiled on it, by me in pen, showing :

 

A_

 

A_1_

per each month  :

Date [ Range ; 1-31 ]

Amount [ THB ] ; incl. Satang in 1/100 units

 

A_2_

cumulative order -- noted with tally-remark -- for the income amount treated in units of THB 1,000 solely

 

And, yes,- there are some instances of more than 1 income-entry from same source per respective months.

Regrettably,- such an instance spotted by the immigration staff from the bank statement became yet another fresh enthusiastic objection by a particular staff member who was, apparently, the leading rank visible there AND then.

Thankfully,- this enthusiasm accompanying the objection was not "very-very" but "very" ... only [ relatively speaking of course ; Further post will clarify this ]

I had to edify him as to how such instances stand to reason ;

And,- finally he relented.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

For convenience of the other readers in preparing to be fully adept in reasoning with this particular objection,- please see the part under the 1st chevron line in my reply to UKresonant's post above [ a post which on the whole is very useful, & relevant, & kind ].

I did not compose that for fun,- Lads / Guys ;

It is meant for yer benefit if it pertains to yee.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

B_

each income amount treated in units of THB 1,000 solely is multiplied by its frequency

each sub-total is summed to arrive at 12 months' total

12 months' total is divided by 12

Result ;

> THB 40,000

AND,- THIS RESULT WOULD BE EVEN LARGER IF I INCLUDED THE THB AMOUNTS LESS THAN THB 1,000.

 

BUT --- BUT --- BUT

 

This apparently highest staff visible there & then would not even look at it ;

 

Instead,- they are firm on their claim that they inputted all the relevant income amounts & performed the correct operations to arrive at the [ Mean ] Average for 12 Months ;

An average which is less than THB 40,000 per Month.

 

I expressed amazement that they were able to extract all the payments in such a short time from the Bank Statement ;

Because, I explained,- the smallness of the font in some places, & other events, in the statement warrant much more time to do this task properly.

And, anyway,- my calculation is > THB 40,000 per Month.

 

Meanwhile,- thank u again for ur keen interest, & helpful replies, Ubonjoe.

Ditto to others here ;

incl.

UKresonant

Tanoshi

[treetops]

So basically you couldn't prove your income and they knew it?  Not surprising really.