Buy Condo Without Lawyer?

[reasonstobecheerful]

A friend of mine has been advised not to bother with a lawyer when they buy their condo. They have had the necessary steps written for them in great detail by someone who has bought and sold many himself. He says it is just a waste of time and money.

Would anyone disagree....and why?

Thankyou.

[taxexile]

providing you understand the (pretty straightforward) procedure involved at the land office , and you know exactly what documentation is involved , then using a lawyer is unnecessary.

there is a lot of paperwork down at the land office , all of it in thai legalese and it would help to have someone that you can trust 100% ( which ususally rules out the lawyer anyway ) to go along with you and explain things as they happen and to let you know what you are signing , and to make sure that the land department and the seller are doing everything correctly too.

we have bought land and a condo in thailand without the aid of lawyers , my wife made sure all was in order.

she has also helped other foriegners through the process , and in one case where the foriegner used a lawyer , she was busy putting the lawyers agent right on how to handle the process , his inexperience in what he was supposed to be doing was embarrassing , considering the fees he was charging and six months down the line , his lack of attention to detail is still causinging problems and proving expensive to correct.

there certainly are opportunities during the process where unscrupulous parties could collude to cheat and mislead the buyer , not so much with the land office and the legality of title , but with moneys owed to the juristic office of the condo , or to banks as part of the sellers mortgage , or outstanding utility company debts.

its all in the detail.

[simcity]

A friend of mine has been advised not to bother with a lawyer when they buy their condo. They have had the necessary steps written for them in great detail by someone who has bought and sold many himself. He says it is just a waste of time and money.

Would anyone disagree....and why?

Thankyou.

I will not buy a condo without a lawer in my own country !

[briley]

My understanding is that if Land Registry register the condo in your name then it is yours, no money is outstanding and the decision can't be challenged.

So if this is true then you can do it yourself - but you must speak excellent Thai.

My main things to look at are:

Don't pay any money before the papers are ready to be finalised at Land Registry, just show a bank cheque beforehand and hand it over on signing.

Make sure the condo you buy is the one you look at. All number on the papers are old Thai numbers.

Ask the condo management about outstanding fees, don't just rely on the condo form.

As said before ensure you have a Thai who speaks good English and Thai to help you and whom you trust. Tend to agree that rules out using a lawyer!

[reasonstobecheerful]

Thankyou for your replies.....

[goatfarmer]

A friend of mine has been advised not to bother with a lawyer when they buy their condo. They have had the necessary steps written for them in great detail by someone who has bought and sold many himself. He says it is just a waste of time and money.

Would anyone disagree....and why?

Thankyou.

Agree. Don't bother with a lawyer. The system is simple. There's not much a lawyer can do to assist.

[cdnvic]

A friend of mine has been advised not to bother with a lawyer when they buy their condo. They have had the necessary steps written for them in great detail by someone who has bought and sold many himself. He says it is just a waste of time and money.

Would anyone disagree....and why?

Thankyou.

On such a big purchase why skimp on the lawyer when all the documentation is in a language you can't read?

[Gary A]

A friend of mine has been advised not to bother with a lawyer when they buy their condo. They have had the necessary steps written for them in great detail by someone who has bought and sold many himself. He says it is just a waste of time and money.

Would anyone disagree....and why?

Thankyou.

Agree. Don't bother with a lawyer. The system is simple. There's not much a lawyer can do to assist.

I agree. I bought mine without a lawyer. I bought it from a Thai man and it was his responsibility to have the documents prepared. He had to have a statement from the condo association stating that fees, utilities and any other charges were paid up in full. He needed the ownership figures assuring that less than 49 percent of the units were foreign owned. He had a mortgage on the unit and the bank had to be present at the land office before the chanote could be transferred to me. I had to have two checks prepared, one to the bank and one to the owner. Don't hand over the checks until the chanote is in your name and in your hand. The land office will NOT transfer the property unless all the conditions are met.

EDIT - Added - There are some pretty hefty fees for the sale. You must agree in advance who will pay the fees. In my case the seller paid about 80 percent and I paid about 20 percent.

Edited May 15, 2007 by Gary A

[Khun Bob]

Gary

What were the hefty fees in the sale for ?

Would things be different if buying from a Thai bank ?

Cheers and Thanks

KB

A friend of mine has been advised not to bother with a lawyer when they buy their condo. They have had the necessary steps written for them in great detail by someone who has bought and sold many himself. He says it is just a waste of time and money.

Would anyone disagree....and why?

Thankyou.

Agree. Don't bother with a lawyer. The system is simple. There's not much a lawyer can do to assist.

I agree. I bought mine without a lawyer. I bought it from a Thai man and it was his responsibility to have the documents prepared. He had to have a statement from the condo association stating that fees, utilities and any other charges were paid up in full. He needed the ownership figures assuring that less than 49 percent of the units were foreign owned. He had a mortgage on the unit and the bank had to be present at the land office before the chanote could be transferred to me. I had to have two checks prepared, one to the bank and one to the owner. Don't hand over the checks until the chanote is in your name and in your hand. The land office will NOT transfer the property unless all the conditions are met.

EDIT - Added - There are some pretty hefty fees for the sale. You must agree in advance who will pay the fees. In my case the seller paid about 80 percent and I paid about 20 percent.

[briley]

About (I do not know the exact %) 1% to 3% of the land registry valuation.

Believe it is normally 1% but if it is a business then can be 3%. Google Thaivisa for a definitive answer a short while ago.

[dave111223]

We bought this condo without a lawyer and the process was quite easy.

I like the way the land office operates here, they make it difficult for scams to happen.

You bring the money, seller brings the condo deed and proof that there are no outstanding bills.

Taxes are paid, and you walk out holding the deed to your new condo with your name on it.

[bangkapiboy]

We bought this condo without a lawyer and the process was quite easy.

I like the way the land office operates here, they make it difficult for scams to happen.

You bring the money, seller brings the condo deed and proof that there are no outstanding bills.

Taxes are paid, and you walk out holding the deed to your new condo with your name on it.

I agree. There is little need for a lawyer. I bought my condos without a lawyer, and I don't see why one would be needed, as long as you have someone on your side with you who can translate everything. The land office is very straight forward dealing.

[Khun Bob]

Thanks for the reply briley

A bit OT, but seems like a good place to bring it up.

Are all the condo service charges also identified as part of the condo transfer at the land office ? ie

*Electricity

*Water

*Fund for communal area cleaning and lighting

*Fund for condo repair etc

*Any other charges - telephone, internet, security, etc

If the charges for the above and any other charges are not identified, when are they typically, and what is the best way to avoid paying over the odds (farang price) for them ?

Also, if buying a condo from a bank, is it fait to think that the bank would have all this infomration at hand or could get the accurate figues, if interested in bidding.buying for a condo ?

Thanks in advance...

[dave111223]

Thanks for the reply briley

A bit OT, but seems like a good place to bring it up.

Are all the condo service charges also identified as part of the condo transfer at the land office ? ie

*Electricity

*Water

*Fund for communal area cleaning and lighting

*Fund for condo repair etc

*Any other charges - telephone, internet, security, etc

If the charges for the above and any other charges are not identified, when are they typically, and what is the best way to avoid paying over the odds (farang price) for them ?

Also, if buying a condo from a bank, is it fait to think that the bank would have all this infomration at hand or could get the accurate figues, if interested in bidding.buying for a condo ?

Thanks in advance...

The Electricity, telephone, internet will all be in the old-owner's name. (not a debt against the 'condo').

When you buy the condo you will need to go and get an electricity meter, phone line, DSL connect etc in your own name also.

The other mentioned charges are all debts against the condo. But the seller of the unit has to get paperwork from the condo office stating that all debts to the condo building are paid up. (This will be not be itemized but includes things like: service charges, water, etc...)

[Khun Bob]

Thanks for the reply - sorry maybe I wasnt that clear - what I'm looking for is a way to identify what the actual unit price of the water/electricity is or what the monthly charge of the condo maintenance fund is ? I know these are charges that can get padded when a foreigner is buying.

So will thse need to be explicitly stated at the land office or is there another way to get at the truth ?

If buying from a bank, would they typically know what they are as they would be the owner of the condo and should be in a good position to find out from the condo management, so long as they dont collude with them for a kick back on padded charges to a farang...

Thanks

Thanks for the reply briley

A bit OT, but seems like a good place to bring it up.

Are all the condo service charges also identified as part of the condo transfer at the land office ? ie

*Electricity

*Water

*Fund for communal area cleaning and lighting

*Fund for condo repair etc

*Any other charges - telephone, internet, security, etc

If the charges for the above and any other charges are not identified, when are they typically, and what is the best way to avoid paying over the odds (farang price) for them ?

Also, if buying a condo from a bank, is it fait to think that the bank would have all this infomration at hand or could get the accurate figues, if interested in bidding.buying for a condo ?

Thanks in advance...

The Electricity, telephone, internet will all be in the old-owner's name. (not a debt against the 'condo').

When you buy the condo you will need to go and get an electricity meter, phone line, DSL connect etc in your own name also.

The other mentioned charges are all debts against the condo. But the seller of the unit has to get paperwork from the condo office stating that all debts to the condo building are paid up. (This will be not be itemized but includes things like: service charges, water, etc...)

[briley]

In my experience in most condo's you can either get your electricity from the condo or direct from the leckie company.

If the condo supplies your electricity then you must ask them the price - 5 baht per unit is not unusual. Direct from the PEA then it is 2.6'ish a unit. The difference is partially explained by the fact that the Condo pays commercial rate but you pay private rate. There is a small (35baht?) standing charge.

Water - seems you must buy through the condo, I've seem prices from 10 baht (condo pumps the water themselves) to 25 baht (town water) per cu metre - again you have to ask the condo office.

Telephone through the condo is often about 5 baht per call (local) with a 10 minute cut off. But get your own line for 100 baht a month rental and 3 baht per local call unlimited - installation is around 3,000 provided the condo allow you to have your own line. Again you must ask the condo office for details.

The seller, in theory, might know the price, but many people do not know how much they are paying for utilities. The banks know nothing in my opinion.

I've never know a farang pay more than a Thai, but read the meters when you buy. You should be able to see the last reading taken by the condo management if they made the reading. If it is electricity from the PEA then you are only responsible from the time you take over. Since all utilities are cut off quite quickly if bills aren't paid then there is only a little chance of a big bill (relative to farang prices) being outstanding.

Nothing to stop you asking the seller for sight of the last bill, they all come monthly and if you read Thai are easy to understand.

On condo charges you will pay X baht a sq metre, there X is some magical number between 6 and 40 or more. You MUST know that figure before you buy. Also look for payments to sinking fund, water meter charge, security charge, swipe card charges, legal fund etc. These are normally small, 50-500 baht per year. Ask the right question of the condo office and they will tell you, but keep asking until you are clear about the answer. All these charges will be up-to-date when you buy otherwise land registry won't register the sale. But 40 baht a sq metre charge will cost you around 4,000 baht a month for a nice sized condo - not cheap.

Management can also add your share of any major repairs. As a co-owner you are legally liable to pay your share of all essential work/maintenance/repairs/bills etc of the Condo building. So do look at how good the management is - this is the biggest pitfall in buying a condo.

(All quoted here is Chiang Mai experience)

[Khun Bob]

Thanks briley - excellent reply !

Just a few follow-ups / confirmations :

* All the condo charges you have mentioned above the Land Registry must know about and will be specified (albeit in Thai) at the time of the transfer

* For all other charges the condo management should be a source of information

* How do you tell how good or not the management of the condo is ?

* Would things be that different outside of Chiang Mai ?

I have experienced significant padding when renting an appartment on water and electricity. One was a complete joke and the owner actually avoided me because she knew I would make a very difficult situation for her - it was classic comedy the well-to-do Thai Chinese owner hiding from a farang and getting other people to do her dirty work. Still I exposed a massive scam and it was happenning to most residents - Thai, Non-Thai, students, rich and poor - everyone was fair game and they made so many mistakes in doing it (dont stay at pong inn mansion, khon kaen, unless you can take this !)

[rak sa_ngop]

But 40 baht a sq metre charge will cost you around 4,000 baht a month for a nice sized condo - not cheap.

Not sure if I agree with this statement. When you consider that in addition to this maintenance fund payment you will probably only have a few minor additions to pay (e.g building insurance - less than 1000 baht, card key renewal etc) I personally think that the maintenance charges are b*****y cheap especially when compared to the West. For 35 baht/metre/month I get a well maintained swimming pool, heaps of security guards, CCTV in all common areas, fish pools,garden shrubs, free assistance with small DIY jobs etc, etc. and a pleasant living environment.

One way to judge the performance of the condo management is to check the size of the sinking fund over the last few years. In my condo the sinking fund averages nearly 2,000 USD per unit and stays about the same from year to year. Major works may be covered by raising additional amounts eg. repainting the whole outside and communal areas of my building after 5 years is costing me an extra 8,000 baht in total.

My location is Bangkok, Silom area.

[briley]

Maybe Bangkok is more expensive than Chiang Mai. Our condo charges 6 baht per sq meter and almost manage it - there will be an increase by a couple of Baht next year. With swimming pool, security guards, CCTV etc.

Mind we have no sinking fund, and the building needs painting but they are both on the list 'to do'.

Places in Chiang Mai that are expensive tend to have one person owning a high percentage of the Units and not paying their dues.

How to find out if the management is any good, talk to owners? Rent in the building? really is hard to easily find this out. Also one person's definition of good is not everybody's definition - especially if comparing to the west.