Bangkok Pattaya Hospital..Where is the Care?...

[Tammi]

This news story demonstates the bare faced audacity with which the Bangkok Pattaya Hospital treats the public with total contempt.

They turn away a farang who is at deaths door and sentenced him to death by sending him away, yet they can afford to spend 5 million Baht on advertising umbrellas for the Pattaya beaches.

If I see one I shall pick it up, walk to the Bangkok Pattaya Hospital and insert it up the rectum of the first Doctor I encounter. I suggest that everyone follow suit!

Libya 115

SOURCE: Pattaya People: May 24th 2007

BHP gave out Beach Umbrellas worth 5 Million Baht

The administrators from Bangkok Hospital Pattaya headed by Doctor Phirat Praditwanich, Director of BHP went to City Hall in the afternoon of 23rd May and were welcomed by Mayor Niran Wattanasartsatorn.

Starting from May 2007 the Bangkok Hospital Pattaya has organized a project to help improve and beautify the beaches of Pattaya. All together 8,200 colourful beach umbrellas were raised and will continuously be given to City Hall to place along the beach until July 2007. All this is worth over 5 Million Baht.

What else is BHP doing to beautify the beaches besides giving umbrellas that I feel sure will have advertisments for BHP? Will BHP clean the filthy bins, sweep the areas not done by the deckchair people, clean the drains, clean the piss from under every tree?

And certainly a million or so of this 5 million would have been better spent attending to their patient Matt Hayes in their ICU and getting blood sent to him instead of sending him, a critically ill patient, to Chonburi hospital enroute to which he died.

I do hope Dr. Phirat reads ThaiVisa.

[torngseea]

I have suggested on the other Bangkok Hospital thread that it is merged with this thread.

I know this thread started out as a report on the terrible death of Mat, but I now I believe it will be a testament to his memory if we can now keep it going as a reporting point for all that is bad and ugly at that hospital - and who knows maybe one day be influential in getting some change in attitude and policy.

This one's less than a week old.

My friend's wife was rushed in with severe abdominal pain. Was diagnosed as a ruptured ectopic pregnancy and needed emergency surgery to save her life. The doctor wanted to rush her in for the operation. The 'administrator' handling her case, demanded 50% of the fee up front. As she only had 5,000 on her this was a problem. The 'administrator' was walking out of the room having refused to give the go ahead for the operation. The doctor calls after her, 'Do you want to just let her die in front of me.' and then says to my friends wife that she was willing to pay the money for her, in order to get her in the operating theatre.

In the end she had the operation and was told that if it was delayed another hour or two she probably would have died. The doctor seemed genuinely concerned about her well-being but the adminstrator couldn't have cared less.

Total cost for this 'care' - 89,000 Bt.

[DeputyDawg]

Vote with your wallets just Boycott BPH.. I have taken 2 family members to PIC since this started so they are loosing my business already

[Mobi]

Vote with your wallets just Boycott BPH.. I have taken 2 family members to PIC since this started so they are loosing my business already

Me too - but I'm not too sure about the doctors there.

Anyone got any experience?

What a life - bugg..red if you do, bugg..rd if you don't.

Only joking

[raro]

I use PIH for dental care and Dr. Aree is just great.

Luckily I never needed a hospital for anything serious in Thailand, however I was consulting with Dr. Chollada regarding a medication a couple of years ago. She gave me a week later a disk with countless internet links - basically a full scientific research on the subject. Free of charge and advised me NOT to take the pills. It was the first doctor I met in Thailand that does not prescribe tons of drugs just to keep the accountant happy.

[hughden]

Friend did something nasty to his ankle in a sporting accident. Much pain and hard to walk, he went to BPH who told him it was strained and gave him a bag of pills and a substantial invoice.

Several days later it is getting no better so he goes to PIH who examine him and find that he has a detached tendon which needs immediate surgery otherwise it will not be repairable.

[libya 115]

This reply from the Bangkok Pattaya Hospital printed in full:

SOURCE: Pattaya Mail: May 25th Edition

An important public statement from the Bangkok Hospital Pattaya

It has been alleged in the press that a severely injured man was not accepted by Bangkok Hospital Pattaya and that the injured man “died …. on this unnecessary journey” (to Chonburi Hospital), and “if they (the Bangkok Hospital Pattaya) would have accepted him … then maybe he would still be alive.”

We acknowledge the concerns of the expat community and consequently feel it necessary to correct some misconceptions and misinformation.

Although we are a private hospital, we are registered and accepted as the emergency center in Pattaya by the Chonburi Provincial authorities and Pattaya City.

Our policy does not differentiate between Thais or foreigners presented as emergencies, and they are accepted immediately without administrative delay. Formal admission proceedings and/or transfer will be made later, after the patient’s condition has been stabilized as far as is medically possible.

Following allegations by one newspaper and repeated on some websites, it seems that sections of the expat community are under the impression that we turned away an injured American (quote) “because he was not carrying any ID, so he was put in the back of a pick-up truck and sent all the way to Chonburi and died of internal bleeding on the way.”

We entirely refute those statements as being totally untrue. The real situation is as follows:

The injured American male was brought to Bangkok Hospital Pattaya at 10 a.m. on 28 April, 2007. A speeding truck had hit the victim while he was riding his motorcycle, resulting in multiple serious injuries.

Our doctor at Emergency Room noted the injuries, and immediate treatment was given and an urgent CT scan was done. Four specialist doctors (Orthopedic Surgeon, Cardiovascular Thoracic Surgeon, and two General Surgeons) attended the man promptly.

The injuries had produced massive blood loss and treatment was instituted, including the following:

1 Restoration of the blood volume with transfusions and pump to bring up the blood pressure.

2. Keeping his blood pressure and pulse up with medications

3. Supply of oxygen via endo-tracheal tube

4. Removal of blood from inside the chest cavity

5. Stabilization of his fracture site.

He had lost a lot of blood and received 4 units while he was at Bangkok Hospital Pattaya. Our blood stocks are such that we can supply 99.9 percent of the emergency and our routine surgery needs, however the man’s condition was such that he would need enormous quantities of blood.

The closest hospital with access to large volumes is Chonburi Hospital, and after discussions with them, the medical team decided to transfer him to Chonburi Hospital for further treatment and surgery.

The patient’s medical condition dictated the urgent transfer, as it is not a simple matter of getting blood supplies from another hospital’s blood bank. Administrative logistics within the public hospital system, and the need to cross-match against the patient’s own blood, means that it would be quicker sending the patient to Chonburi, than getting permission for the blood to be released and then sent here for cross-match.

Far from being turned away and “put in the back of a pick-up truck”, he had been accepted and treated and transfused by our hospital and was sent in an ambulance, with an accompanying doctor and two nurses.

Whilst in this case, his ID had been ascertained (and we had informed his father in America), as a general rule, we do encourage everyone to carry some form of ID and details of next of kin (Thais have their ID card and foreigners have their passports or a copy of it). We are also willing to ‘pre-register’ your ID and next of kin and insurance details in our data bank, if you wish.

Along with his many friends in Pattaya, the Bangkok Hospital Pattaya wishes to extend its sympathies to his family, and we hope the understanding of the true situation will offer some comfort for the bereaved.

Yours sincerely,

Dr. Surapant Taweewikayakarn MD

Assistant Director

Bangkok Hospital Pattaya.

Libya 115 says:

Is that the best they can come up with?

A large hospital like Bangkok Pattaya Hospital should at any one time have many gallons of blood available. Suppose there was a multiple accident with 20-30 people admitted all with blood loss?

[monty]

It just might be possible that Matt had blood type O Rhesus negative.

This blood type is pretty much non-existent with Asian people, and as such there usually is not much need for it.

Unfortunately O- can only receive transfusions with O- blood although O- is a universal donor (all bloodtypes can receive O-, although only advisable in emergencies)...

We often see requests for donors of blood, invariably with the injured being foreigners and in need of O- blood, of which the even the central blood bank has a very limited supply.

[Tammi]

A large hospital like Bangkok Pattaya Hospital should at any one time have many gallons of blood available. Suppose there was a multiple accident with 20-30 people admitted all with blood loss?

Libya, you have hit the nail on the head. BHP apparently wouldn't be able to handle even a few emergency people needing blood.

Thank goodness the ectopic pregnancy lady mentioned above had a caring doctor.

Yes, I wonder what Matt''s blood type was? But whatever it was, BHP apparently d1dn't have it but Chonburi Hospital did, so BPH sent him there and he died enroute.

Every time I see a BHP beach umbrella I will think of Matt and that BHP could better spend their 5 million spare cash on the sick and needy.

[libya 115]

It just might be possible that Matt had blood type O Rhesus negative.

This blood type is pretty much non-existent with Asian people, and as such there usually is not much need for it.

Unfortunately O- can only receive transfusions with O- blood although O- is a universal donor (all bloodtypes can receive O-, although only advisable in emergencies)...

We often see requests for donors of blood, invariably with the injured being foreigners and in need of O- blood, of which the even the central blood bank has a very limited supply.

I accept that Rh- blood is rare in Thailand (<0.3%) but I am still puzzled that the Bangkok Pattaya Hospital which is a large hospital, did not have a stockpile of the correct blood to treat one man.

If this is the case, then I would urge all farangs in Thailand to check their blood group immediately and make some kind of arrangement if the worst might happen.

It is ironic, that a farang in Thailand can bleed to death in a large city hospital. What chance those who live in remote areas, with 'village hospitals'?

[popshirt]

This is undoubtedly a public relations nightmare for Bangkok-Pattaya Hospital. I just received an email today from someone in California who had been planning to have some elective surgery done in BP Hosp. this December. He had "heard" about this incident from someone else (not from reading TV Forum). He wrote asking me about hospitals in Bangkok and will have the surgery performed there instead of Pattaya. News travels fast.

[Phil Conners]

I accept that Rh- blood is rare in Thailand (<0.3%) but I am still puzzled that the Bangkok Pattaya Hospital which is a large hospital, did not have a stockpile of the correct blood to treat one man.

If this is the case, then I would urge all farangs in Thailand to check their blood group immediately and make some kind of arrangement if the worst might happen.

Hm, so if you happen to be Rh- what should you do? Go tap your own blood and put it in the freezer?

[Ave]

I also cannot understand why they could not accept him. Maybe there has been too much publicity about their horror stories and now they are trying to clean up their acts a bit by behaving in this disgusting way. We might have all heard that many patients whose insurance was still willing to pay for hospitalisation were kept in hospital even when fit to leave - often with the aid of sleeping tablets - while those who run out of money were denied treatment, a courtesy phonecall, even those in critical conditions! Many of the families of these patients have had to sell their cars, houses and everything else they had to get them - alive and lifeless - back home..

Not only the traffic police should start doing some serious work like remembering what zebra crossings and other road signs mean. Those in charge of releasing driving licences and motorvehicles should be tougher too. How absurd and life slandering is this implicit rule that the biggest vehicle has the right of way...!

Everybody in Pattaya know this to be true of Bangkok-Pattaya, it's just a luxury hotel in disguise as a hospital. Money money money. What I find most difficult to understand is that this is the default hospital where ALL farang accident victims are brought. Knowing their money-grabbing attitude why don't they bring accident victims to Memorial or even Banglamung? At least they would get treatment there. But perhaps they don't pay a kickback to the ambulance drivers?

Also, everybody in Pattaya will have noticed how trucks, particularly cement mixers and buses, drive with neck breaking speeds through Sukhumvit every day. More often than not speeds are in excess of 100 km/h and they blast millimeters from other cars and bikes, honking their 140 db compressor horns to make way. Again, the law of the strongest. The cops? They're busy looking the other way or fining some poor sod 100 baht for driving without a helmet or seatbelt (not that I encourage that, but as a matter of priorities there are a lot of things they could spend their time better doing).

I'd be interested in hearing what actions you are planning, and I'm sure many others are too - why not post them here... I'd have though the most effective action would be to make sure the foreign press (USA and Europe) are informed of this treatment of tourists here. Hit them on the money, perhaps they will wake up!

[chuckd]

This reply from the Bangkok Pattaya Hospital printed in full:

SOURCE: Pattaya Mail: May 25th Edition

An important public statement from the Bangkok Hospital Pattaya

------quoted in part--------

The closest hospital with access to large volumes is Chonburi Hospital, and after discussions with them, the medical team decided to transfer him to Chonburi Hospital for further treatment and surgery.

The patient’s medical condition dictated the urgent transfer, as it is not a simple matter of getting blood supplies from another hospital’s blood bank. Administrative logistics within the public hospital system, and the need to cross-match against the patient’s own blood, means that it would be quicker sending the patient to Chonburi, than getting permission for the blood to be released and then sent here for cross-match.

Yours sincerely,

Dr. Surapant Taweewikayakarn MD

Assistant Director

Bangkok Hospital Pattaya.

__________________________________________________

In my opinion, the most damaging part of the hospital's bad attempt at recovering their reputation is the portion above. It seems to me they are saying the paper work would have been too volumnious and too difficult to shift the blood from Chonburi to BPH so they took the easy way out by sending the patient to the blood.

If this is true, then "Administrative Logistics" must truly be looked at within the medical industry in Thailand to insure this type incident does not happen again. Too much paper work is no excuse to permit somebody to die.

The actions of the hospital in this regard have been unconscienceable and no amount of doggerel provided by the PR writers can cover it up.

[Ave]

Hospitals nearby should help each other in cases of emergency like this! The procedures to have blood units sent over should not be long nor complicated to the point of opting for having him taken all the way to Chonburi in those conditions!

This reply from the Bangkok Pattaya Hospital printed in full:

SOURCE: Pattaya Mail: May 25th Edition

An important public statement from the Bangkok Hospital Pattaya

It has been alleged in the press that a severely injured man was not accepted by Bangkok Hospital Pattaya and that the injured man "died …. on this unnecessary journey" (to Chonburi Hospital), and "if they (the Bangkok Hospital Pattaya) would have accepted him … then maybe he would still be alive."

We acknowledge the concerns of the expat community and consequently feel it necessary to correct some misconceptions and misinformation.

Although we are a private hospital, we are registered and accepted as the emergency center in Pattaya by the Chonburi Provincial authorities and Pattaya City.

Our policy does not differentiate between Thais or foreigners presented as emergencies, and they are accepted immediately without administrative delay. Formal admission proceedings and/or transfer will be made later, after the patient's condition has been stabilized as far as is medically possible.

Following allegations by one newspaper and repeated on some websites, it seems that sections of the expat community are under the impression that we turned away an injured American (quote) "because he was not carrying any ID, so he was put in the back of a pick-up truck and sent all the way to Chonburi and died of internal bleeding on the way."

We entirely refute those statements as being totally untrue. The real situation is as follows:

The injured American male was brought to Bangkok Hospital Pattaya at 10 a.m. on 28 April, 2007. A speeding truck had hit the victim while he was riding his motorcycle, resulting in multiple serious injuries.

Our doctor at Emergency Room noted the injuries, and immediate treatment was given and an urgent CT scan was done. Four specialist doctors (Orthopedic Surgeon, Cardiovascular Thoracic Surgeon, and two General Surgeons) attended the man promptly.

The injuries had produced massive blood loss and treatment was instituted, including the following:

1 Restoration of the blood volume with transfusions and pump to bring up the blood pressure.

2. Keeping his blood pressure and pulse up with medications

3. Supply of oxygen via endo-tracheal tube

4. Removal of blood from inside the chest cavity

5. Stabilization of his fracture site.

He had lost a lot of blood and received 4 units while he was at Bangkok Hospital Pattaya. Our blood stocks are such that we can supply 99.9 percent of the emergency and our routine surgery needs, however the man's condition was such that he would need enormous quantities of blood.

The closest hospital with access to large volumes is Chonburi Hospital, and after discussions with them, the medical team decided to transfer him to Chonburi Hospital for further treatment and surgery.

The patient's medical condition dictated the urgent transfer, as it is not a simple matter of getting blood supplies from another hospital's blood bank. Administrative logistics within the public hospital system, and the need to cross-match against the patient's own blood, means that it would be quicker sending the patient to Chonburi, than getting permission for the blood to be released and then sent here for cross-match.

Far from being turned away and "put in the back of a pick-up truck", he had been accepted and treated and transfused by our hospital and was sent in an ambulance, with an accompanying doctor and two nurses.

Whilst in this case, his ID had been ascertained (and we had informed his father in America), as a general rule, we do encourage everyone to carry some form of ID and details of next of kin (Thais have their ID card and foreigners have their passports or a copy of it). We are also willing to 'pre-register' your ID and next of kin and insurance details in our data bank, if you wish.

Along with his many friends in Pattaya, the Bangkok Hospital Pattaya wishes to extend its sympathies to his family, and we hope the understanding of the true situation will offer some comfort for the bereaved.

Yours sincerely,

Dr. Surapant Taweewikayakarn MD

Assistant Director

Bangkok Hospital Pattaya.

Libya 115 says:

Is that the best they can come up with?

A large hospital like Bangkok Pattaya Hospital should at any one time have many gallons of blood available. Suppose there was a multiple accident with 20-30 people admitted all with blood loss?

[libya 115]

I accept that Rh- blood is rare in Thailand (<0.3%) but I am still puzzled that the Bangkok Pattaya Hospital which is a large hospital, did not have a stockpile of the correct blood to treat one man.

If this is the case, then I would urge all farangs in Thailand to check their blood group immediately and make some kind of arrangement if the worst might happen.

Hm, so if you happen to be Rh- what should you do? Go tap your own blood and put it in the freezer?

Firstly, if you have Rh- blood you can register at your local hospital of choice in Thailand and make donations of your own blood for future use whether for operative surgery or potential traumatic injury.

Secondly, if Rh- people were aware of the shortage of blood in Thailand they might subscibe to an emergency blood supply programme, which airlifts suitable blood from a first world country, I guess Singapore or KL in this case.

[libya 115]

SOURCE: Pattaya Mail: May 25th Edition

An important public statement from the Bangkok Hospital Pattaya

------quoted in part--------

The closest hospital with access to large volumes is Chonburi Hospital, and after discussions with them, the medical team decided to transfer him to Chonburi Hospital for further treatment and surgery.

The patient’s medical condition dictated the urgent transfer, as it is not a simple matter of getting blood supplies from another hospital’s blood bank. Administrative logistics within the public hospital system, and the need to cross-match against the patient’s own blood, means that it would be quicker sending the patient to Chonburi, than getting permission for the blood to be released and then sent here for cross-match.

Yours sincerely,

Dr. Surapant Taweewikayakarn MD

Assistant Director

Bangkok Hospital Pattaya.

__________________________________________________

In my opinion, the most damaging part of the hospital's bad attempt at recovering their reputation is the portion above. It seems to me they are saying the paper work would have been too volumnious and too difficult to shift the blood from Chonburi to BPH so they took the easy way out by sending the patient to the blood.

If this is true, then "Administrative Logistics" must truly be looked at within the medical industry in Thailand to insure this type incident does not happen again. Too much paper work is no excuse to permit somebody to die.

The actions of the hospital in this regard have been unconscienceable and no amount of doggerel provided by the PR writers can cover it up.

__________________________________________________________

Exactly!

The so-called medical Doctor who scripted this reply, was just digging deeper and deeper into a hole. (With his heartless drivel of an explanation).

Surely they could have gotten a 'Harold Shipman' type farang to work on an erudite and credible bull**** reply to the Pattaya Mail, not some hopeless and amateur; 'blood shortage' excuse, missive.

This is not funny really, it is sad. Shame on the Bangkok Pattaya Hospital.

[Phil Conners]

I accept that Rh- blood is rare in Thailand (<0.3%) but I am still puzzled that the Bangkok Pattaya Hospital which is a large hospital, did not have a stockpile of the correct blood to treat one man.

If this is the case, then I would urge all farangs in Thailand to check their blood group immediately and make some kind of arrangement if the worst might happen.

Hm, so if you happen to be Rh- what should you do? Go tap your own blood and put it in the freezer?

Firstly, if you have Rh- blood you can register at your local hospital of choice in Thailand and make donations of your own blood for future use whether for operative surgery or potential traumatic injury.

Secondly, if Rh- people were aware of the shortage of blood in Thailand they might subscibe to an emergency blood supply programme, which airlifts suitable blood from a first world country, I guess Singapore or KL in this case.

With respect, do you think if Matt had subscribed to such a service - which is surely not cheap - it would have saved his life?

Also, I find it hard to believe that you can go to a(ny) hospital in this area and "deposit" your own blood for future use. Do you have any concrete details on such a program?

[MP5]

BLOOD

It's a given fact that people in different countries are, well, different.

Languages, attitudes, eating habits, those sorts of things!

Well, the same holds for our blood groups and distribution too.

Almost all South American Indians are group O, while about 25% of Asians are group B.

Only about 9% of Caucasians have that particular group.

And should you find yourself in Norway requiring a blood transfusion, let's hope it's group A you need, because that's what they've got the most of up in that part of the world.

Facts about blood and its components

Whole blood can be processed into red cells, platelets, plasma, and cryoprecipitate.

It is possible to donate specifically only platelets or plasma. This process is called apheresis

Most donated red blood cells must be used within 42 days of collection

Donated platelets must be used within 5 days of collection — new donations are constantly needed

Healthy bone marrow makes a constant supply of red cells, plasma and platelets.

The body will replenish the elements given during a blood donation - some in a matter of hours, and others in a matter of weeks

[english_farang_lady]

I have heard that many private hospitals worldwide perform what is commonly referred to as a "wallet biopsy". If the said wallet does not produce an up to date insurance card, or sufficient cash to cover treatment, then the patient is moved elsewhere.

OK private hospitals are in it to make money, not to save peoples lives per se. But a basic underlying moral code should be in place to, when a live is in jeopardy.

Having been to three "international" hospitals in Thailand, fortunately none as an emergency (yet), I did find the Bangkok Pattaya Hospital the most "grabbing" and money orientated of the three. Bumrungrad came second, and the very fine Samitivej Hospital on Sukhunvit Soi 49 by far and away was the best, clinically.

Apparently this hospital is run by doctors, for doctors, not by a bunch of businessmen.

I saw the badly crafted reply from the BPH in a local paper --- they do say one thing which I believe to be true, and that is tha Thais are treated the same as foreigners. All receive a "wallet biopsy".

It is quite scandalous that this kind of treatment is practiced and my deepest sympathies go to the young man and all his family, friends and colleagues.

I suggest a boycott of this particular establishment. It would be inconvenient, but frankly their fees are almost on a par with the better two hospitals in Bangkok anyway.

[Barryz]

I also misjudged the content of this thread by its title. I thought it was just a general gripe about the standard of medical treatment in Pattaya. Having read most of the thread, I now see it is a specific case of possible negligence with tragic consequences. My heart goes out to Matt's family and relatives.

As far as I can gather, there was a lot of misinformation initially until the hospital issued a statement.

That statement clarified everything except the decision to send Matt to the blood supplies instead of sending the blood supplies to Matt.

There's an implication here that this decision was negligent regarding the best interests of the patient and that such decision was made instead in the best financial interests of the hospital. That's the crux of the problem as I see it and this is the issue that needs to be clarified.

Medical issues are complex. I'm no medical authority and have no idea of the pros and cons regarding this decision as to which was in the best interests of the patient, sending the patient to the blood supply or the blood supply to the patient.

We need further explanation and clarification from the hospital. For all I know, and for all of the posters in this thread know, there might be other genuine medical issues which the hospital is reluctant to mention for libel reasons, for face-saving reasons or whatever. It might even be the case that the Bangkok Hospital, Pattaya was also aware that the precise procedures that were necessary to save Matt's life could be better handled in the Chonburi Hospital as a result of available specialists and equipment, as well as vital blood supplies. Understandably, the BKK Pattaya would be reluctant to broadcast this information.

This thread in general is a fine example of how people with misinformation and inadequate information can go off in the deep end. It's like a kangaroo court or a lynching.

[Mobi]

It might even be the case that the Bangkok Hospital, Pattaya was also aware that the precise procedures that were necessary to save Matt's life could be better handled in the Chonburi Hospital as a result of available specialists and equipment, as well as vital blood supplies. Understandably, the BKK Pattaya would be reluctant to broadcast this information.

This thread in general is a fine example of how people with misinformation and inadequate information can go off in the deep end. It's like a kangaroo court or a lynching.

If you had ever been anywhere near Chonburi hospital, you would never, in your wildest dreams, make a suggestion like that.

I strongly suggest you go back and read all the 200 odd posts - many made by senior and respected Thai Visa members - on this thread very carefully, to say nothing of the numerous previous threads on the same subject over the past 2 years, all relating their PERSONAL EXPERIENCES (quote:"misinformation and inadequate information"unquote???) and then tell us if you still think it is a kangaroo court.

Or maybe you have a vested interested in defending the indefensible?

Edited May 26, 2007 by Mobi D'Ark

[Barryz]

It might even be the case that the Bangkok Hospital, Pattaya was also aware that the precise procedures that were necessary to save Matt's life could be better handled in the Chonburi Hospital as a result of available specialists and equipment, as well as vital blood supplies. Understandably, the BKK Pattaya would be reluctant to broadcast this information.

This thread in general is a fine example of how people with misinformation and inadequate information can go off in the deep end. It's like a kangaroo court or a lynching.

If you had ever been anywhere near Chonburi hospital, you would never, in your wildest dreams, make a suggestion like that.

I strongly suggest you go back and read all the 200 odd posts - many made by senior and respected Thai Visa members - on this thread very carefully, to say nothing of the numerous previous threads on the same subject over the past 2 years, all relating their PERSONAL EXPERIENCES (quote:"misinformation and inadequate information"unquote???) and then tell us if you still think it is a kangaroo court.

Or maybe you have a vested interested in defending the indefensible?

I have no vested interests here, nor have I visited or even seen either of the hospitals in question, but i know it is very dangerous to make judgements based on a few anecdotes. Although this thread is very long, in the general scheme of things the anecdotes are few and possibly very biased.

If your argument is, Chonburi is a dump and BKK Pattaya a supposed state-of-the-art hospital, one might wonder why the dump has the required blood supplies, unless you are implying the the BKK Pattaya actually did have the required blood supplies, which I suggest is a very libelous assertion.

[Mobi]

based on a few anecdotes.[/color] Although this thread is very long, in the general scheme of things the anecdotes are few and possibly very biased.

If your argument is, Chonburi is a dump and BKK Pattaya a supposed state-of-the-art hospital, one might wonder why the dump has the required blood supplies, unless you are implying the the BKK Pattaya actually did have the required blood supplies, which I suggest is a very libelous assertion.

The anecdotes are not 'few'. There are literally dozens and dozens, as long term members of this forum can attest to.

A not uncommon rebuttal of an opinions or hypotheses that are propounded in the forum, is to ‘poo poo’ them on the grounds that they are based on ‘anecdotes’.

I would ask you to consider that what is this forum if it is not – for the most part – a collection of anecdotes - with conclusions and opinions arising from those anecdotes?

What is an anecdote?

Chambers: a short entertaining account of an incident

Miriam Webster: a usually short narrative of an interesting, amusing, or biographical incident

So, while I’m not sure that many of the accounts in this thread qualify as being ‘entertaining’ or ‘amusing’ there is nevertheless, nothing in the definition of anecdote to suggest that they are works of fiction. On the contrary – they are biographical accounts of true events. This being the case, why is it that you summarily dismiss anecdotes as being of no consequence?

Further, I would suggest that if there is any crime of libel here, it pails into insignificance when compared to other possible crimes that may have been committed in the name of medicine.

And yes – you are right – Chonburi hospital is an unbelievable dump and your proposition is utterly preposterous.

Edited May 26, 2007 by Mobi D'Ark

[Tammi]

What about Banglamung Hospital? Am sure I have read on this forum of good treatment of farangs at Banglamung and I personally know Thais who have been pleased with treatment.

[NanLaew]

It might even be the case that the Bangkok Hospital, Pattaya was also aware that the precise procedures that were necessary to save Matt's life could be better handled in the Chonburi Hospital as a result of available specialists and equipment, as well as vital blood supplies. Understandably, the BKK Pattaya would be reluctant to broadcast this information.

This thread in general is a fine example of how people with misinformation and inadequate information can go off in the deep end. It's like a kangaroo court or a lynching.

If you had ever been anywhere near Chonburi hospital, you would never, in your wildest dreams, make a suggestion like that.

I strongly suggest you go back and read all the 200 odd posts - many made by senior and respected Thai Visa members - on this thread very carefully, to say nothing of the numerous previous threads on the same subject over the past 2 years, all relating their PERSONAL EXPERIENCES (quote:"misinformation and inadequate information"unquote???) and then tell us if you still think it is a kangaroo court.

Or maybe you have a vested interested in defending the indefensible?

Mobi,

Do you subscribe to any other conspiracy theories?

With best regards,

Nan

[Barryz]

The anecdotes are not 'few'. There are literally dozens and dozens, as long term members of this forum can attest to.

I would ask you to consider that what is this forum if it is not – for the most part – a collection of anecdotes - with conclusions and opinions arising from those anecdotes?

And yes – you are right – Chonburi hospital is an unbelievable dump and your proposition is utterly preposterous.

Hospitals treat thousands of people each year. A dozen anecdotes is a very few and a few dozen anecdotes is still a few. I'm not 'poo pooing' the concept of an anecdote and I certainly don't need a dictionary definition of the term. I'm simply saying that you cannot arrive at the truth of what happened here through a small collection of anecdotes that do not have any direct bearing on this particular tragedy.

We already have a situation here where people were prepared to believe that the BKK hospital had turned away a seriously injured man (on the grounds he didn't have any ID on his person) and allowed him to be driven another 45 minutes in the back of a pick-up truck to another hospital. It now appears that was simply not true, yet some people were prepared to act upon that misinformation and withdraw their support for the BKK hospital, cancel their registration, whatever.

I agree, however, we still need an more convincing explanation from the BKK hospital as to why the blood supplies could not be brought to the patient. It might well be the case that administrative matters took priority here and a life was consequently lost. But I wouldn't assume this to be the case without further evidence of the non-anecdotal variety.

[Mobi]

Mobi,

Do you subscribe to any other conspiracy theories?

With best regards,

Nan

Well now, apart from the Bangkok Pattaya defence league, now let's see....

Diana?

JFK?

The moon landings were faked?

So you can see I am a theorist of some substance.

Back to the topic

[Mobi]

The anecdotes are not 'few'. There are literally dozens and dozens, as long term members of this forum can attest to.

I would ask you to consider that what is this forum if it is not – for the most part – a collection of anecdotes - with conclusions and opinions arising from those anecdotes?

And yes – you are right – Chonburi hospital is an unbelievable dump and your proposition is utterly preposterous.

Hospitals treat thousands of people each year. A dozen anecdotes is a very few and a few dozen anecdotes is still a few. I'm not 'poo pooing' the concept of an anecdote and I certainly don't need a dictionary definition of the term. I'm simply saying that you cannot arrive at the truth of what happened here through a small collection of anecdotes that do not have any direct bearing on this particular tragedy.

We already have a situation here where people were prepared to believe that the BKK hospital had turned away a seriously injured man (on the grounds he didn't have any ID on his person) and allowed him to be driven another 45 minutes in the back of a pick-up truck to another hospital. It now appears that was simply not true, yet some people were prepared to act upon that misinformation and withdraw their support for the BKK hospital, cancel their registration, whatever.

I agree, however, we still need an more convincing explanation from the BKK hospital as to why the blood supplies could not be brought to the patient. It might well be the case that administrative matters took priority here and a life was consequently lost. But I wouldn't assume this to be the case without further evidence of the non-anecdotal variety.

Again, I advise you to read this thread carefully - as clearly you have not done that.

If you did, you would find that this thread is not only aimed at arriving at the truth with regards to Matt's untimely death, but by consensus, it has also become a place where ex patients of Bangkok Pattaya can record their experiences. Indeed there have even been one or two good reports amongst the overwhelming majority which are bad - some of them outright alarming. READ THEM!!

Does it take another report of somebody dying before you believe there is something wrong?

I must know personally at least a dozen people who have used that place over the past year or two for all manner of ailments, ranging from hip replacements, to prostate cancer, to heart bi-passes to ear infections, and God knows what else. I doubt you'd believe me, but I can put my hand on my heart and and state that not a single one of these people can say they were satisfied with their treatment, and a majority were outraged.

But, of course, that is all too 'anecdotal' for you.,

I reiterate - this is an internet forum - that's what we do - relate accounts of events that happened to us and our friends and acquaintances and then draw conclusions from them. It's far from being perfect but its the best we've got at our disposal.

If you don't like this type of discussion, and conclusions drawn from anecdotes, then go and set up an independent investigation into the working practices of Bangkok Pattaya Hospital - but if you do, I guarantee that you will be harassed and stymied at every turn.

[Barryz]

Again, I advise you to read this thread carefully - as clearly you have not done that.

If you did, you would find that this thread is not only aimed at arriving at the truth with regards to Matt's untimely death, but by consensus, it has also become a place where ex patients of Bangkok Pattaya can record their experiences. Indeed there have even been one or two good reports amongst the overwhelming majority which are bad - some of them outright alarming. READ THEM!!

Does it take another report of somebody dying before you believe there is something wrong?

I must know personally at least a dozen people who have used that place over the past year or two for all manner of ailments, ranging from hip replacements, to prostate cancer, to heart bi-passes to ear infections, and God knows what else. I doubt you'd believe me, but I can put my hand on my heart and and state that not a single one of these people can say they were satisfied with their treatment, and a majority were outraged.

But, of course, that is all too 'anecdotal' for you.,

I reiterate - this is an internet forum - that's what we do - relate accounts of events that happened to us and our friends and acquaintances and then draw conclusions from them. It's far from being perfect but its the best we've got at our disposal.

If you don't like this type of discussion, and conclusions drawn from anecdotes, then go and set up an independent investigation into the working practices of Bangkok Pattaya Hospital - but if you do, I guarantee that you will be harassed and stymied at every turn.

I have read the thread, Mobi. I'm not about to read the whole thing again. I don't need to, but I think that you should check again your dictionary definition of anecdote.

It so happens that my deceased mother was a nurse in the U.K so I've heard more anecdotes about the goings-on in hospitals than there are anecdotes in this entire forum (maybe a slight exaggeration). Every day at the dinner table there'd be anecdotes about syphilitic babies, incompetent doctors, covered-up mistakes, sloppy procedures, unhygienic practices. (And this was the U.K in both NHS and private hospitals.)

You don't have to convince me there's something wrong. It would be a miracle if you found any hospital anywhere where mistakes were not made and lives were not lost through lack of training, shortage of staff, rampant antibiotic-resistant bacteria, post-operative infections, administrative and financial conflicts etc etc. and often just plain, honest mistakes. You don't think that doctors are immune from making mistakes, do you?

I repeat, most of this thread has been dealing with misinformation about the true circumstances of this tragic case, ie. a hospital turning away a patient who is being transported in the back of a pick-up truck.

We've now moved on to a different scenario. The patient was initially fixed up and transported to another hospital, in a fully equipped ambulance, where there was a plentiful supply of the patients blood type. Yet without more evidence than a few anecdotes, you are assuming that the real motivation in sending Matt to the Chonburi was to save money and wash their hands of him, so to speak.

Some people will just believe what they want to believe, I guess. What makes you think this story is now the correct one?