How To Cool My Desktop Computer

[yeti]

Hi,

This is a second hand computer that was assembled according to the previous owner specs.

It has two 40 GB hardrives.

The only case fan is the power supply one, removing hot air. There is no fan to bring in cool air, and no slot to install one in the front of the case. The hardrives are running a little hot it seems (reporting 55°C). Having the case side open or close doesn't change anything.

Having a small room fan blowing air in the open case brings the HD's temperature down to 40°C, but it's not exactly a comfortable solution.

What can I do?

Thxs

Yeti

[Tywais]

Do you have a place on the back plate of the computer to install an exhaust fan? If you have any vents on the front the exhaust fan will pull air through them. The power supply fan is barely enough to keep itself cool so an additional one is needed for the case. Of course ideally a front intake and rear exhaust is the best but requires getting a new case and moving all the components over to it.

[A_Traveller]

Most cases have a meshed area at the rear over which a fan can be placed. A thermaltake fan would be ideal in that they have a high throughput and are quieter than many.

Regards

[dave_boo]

Hi,

This is a second hand computer that was assembled according to the previous owner specs.

It has two 40 GB hardrives.

The only case fan is the power supply one, removing hot air. There is no fan to bring in cool air, and no slot to install one in the front of the case. The hardrives are running a little hot it seems (reporting 55°C). Having the case side open or close doesn't change anything.

Having a small room fan blowing air in the open case brings the HD's temperature down to 40°C, but it's not exactly a comfortable solution.

What can I do?

Thxs

Yeti

I'm gonna second the recommendation of getting another case. If you have to, you'd rather have negative case pressure than positive. I.E., you'd want more airflow being forced out than in. Ideally, you'd want it balanced, but that's quite a feat. Negative pressure is better because it will suck air from EVERYWHERE it can, including "dead spots" where there would be no air movement. Thus, as air is sucked out of those dead spots, fresh air rushes in to replace it.

According to Seagate for a consumer harddrive, you're running close to critical temperatures.

[waldwolf]

yeti - If your funds permit, also suggest you consider a new case. (A good, used case would probably work equally as well.)

I've found, slot-fans (similar to type pictured below) work quite well, where one encounters space limitations and/or older cases which have no opening for mounting a second conventional fan.

As a general rule of thumb, the (free air) temperature inside your computer should not exceed the ambient room temperature by more than 10 degrees, so keep that room fan blowing on the open case, until you resolve your excess heat problem.

waldwolf

[click2delete]

Wow, what nonsense. Take the side off the case that allows you access to the inside. If you test the temperature, you will find that the insides remain cooler with the cover off.

The only fan you need, is the one on top of the processer and maybe the one on top of your video chip.

That's it.

Buy some compressed air to blow the dust out of the inside and use it every few months.

The most simple solution is usually the best one.

[cdnvic]

Wow, what nonsense. Take the side off the case that allows you access to the inside. If you test the temperature, you will find that the insides remain cooler with the cover off.

The only fan you need, is the one on top of the processer and maybe the one on top of your video chip.

That's it.

Buy some compressed air to blow the dust out of the inside and use it every few months.

The most simple solution is usually the best one.

And the wrong one. Many computer cases are manufactured in such a way that the case is designed to maintain a certain airflow around critical parts. By removing the side you eliminate the forced flow of air that travels from one end of the case to the other. This can lead to hot spots and component failure.

I know at least three of the respondents above are very knowledgeable in what we are discussing here. To refer to their expertise as nonsense just brings your own into doubt.

[quiksilva]

yeti - If your funds permit, also suggest you consider a new case.

Agreed, but fairly regular cleaning with compressed air can also bring about dramatic improvements too.

[yeti]

I'll give more details then.

The CPU has of course it's own fan, and is not really hot: 32°C. So does the graphic card, and I don't think it's hot either (no sensor). The system temperature is 41°C, which seems reasonable as well.

Those are taken without the room fan blowing, and are the same with or without the case side.

I just cleaned the whole interior of the computer yesterday, fans are running a bit slower but temperature didn't change.

The thing that worries me is the temperature of the HD which is 55°C when the room fan doesn't blow (40°C with it).

I can add a fan on the back of the case, but the HDs being in the front I don't think it will change much.

So my question was if it's possible to add a fan in the front (blowing air inside) when the case was not designed for it. I gather that the answer is no.

Thxs to all who took the time to answer .

edit: posted before it was finished, bloody tab key.

Edited May 21, 2007 by yeti

[lingling]

I'll give more details then.

The CPU has of course it's own fan, and is not really hot: 32°C. So does the graphic card, and I don't think it's hot either (no sensor). The system temperature is 41°C, which seems reasonable as well.

Those are taken without the room fan blowing, and are the same with or without the case side.

I just cleaned the whole interior of the computer yesterday, fans are running a

The thing that worries me is the temperature of the HD which is 55°C when the room fan doesn't blow (40°C with it).

I cazn add a fan on the back

There are special HDD fan packs for cooling the drives - if you have enough space between, above or under either drive you can install one or two of those. 50-100 baht in Pantip if my memory serves me right.

Edited May 21, 2007 by lingling

[Firefoxx]

Get another case, one that has adequate cooling. They're fairly cheap, compared to a toasted drive and lost data. A good case will have a dedicated fan to bring cool air from the front of the case inside, over the hard drives, and out the back. If it's really good it will have a filter, too, and you won't see any dust accumulating inside the case.

Another exhaust fan will create a vacuum (a greater one) inside the case, causing air to flow in from all the openings, and dust to collect at those openings. It doesn't necessarily mean that the harddisks will get cooled, since your average case has tons of openings. The key to good cooling is good airflow, namely you have an intake fan(s) and an exhaust fan(s), and the design is so that that they even out (equal number/airflow), and that the air passes through the components that need it most.

Keeping the side of the computer open solves cooling, but creates more problems, most notably dust, stuff getting inside, your components being exposed, etc. etc. It's the solution for people who can't be bothered.

Harddisk coolers, like the one above, are gimmicks that should be the absolute last choice. If you'll notice, they're very small and designed to cool only one side of the harddisk, namely the PCB side. This side usually doesn't get hot, it's the metal casing which acts as a heatsink that gets hot. Not only that, the fans will re-circulate the hot air around the harddrives, keeping them in a hot air sauna. Yes, it will be cooler than nothing, but it's not a good choice.

[Noodles]

Whats are ok temps for intel cpus, asus motherboards and seagate hard drives when PC is idle?

Just had mine built and I'm trying to get a feel of what is right and what is wrong.

Many Thanks

[dave_boo]

Get another case, one that has adequate cooling. They're fairly cheap, compared to a toasted drive and lost data. A good case will have a dedicated fan to bring cool air from the front of the case inside, over the hard drives, and out the back. If it's really good it will have a filter, too, and you won't see any dust accumulating inside the case.

Another exhaust fan will create a vacuum (a greater one) inside the case, causing air to flow in from all the openings, and dust to collect at those openings. It doesn't necessarily mean that the harddisks will get cooled, since your average case has tons of openings. The key to good cooling is good airflow, namely you have an intake fan(s) and an exhaust fan(s), and the design is so that that they even out (equal number/airflow), and that the air passes through the components that need it most.

Keeping the side of the computer open solves cooling, but creates more problems, most notably dust, stuff getting inside, your components being exposed, etc. etc. It's the solution for people who can't be bothered.

Harddisk coolers, like the one above, are gimmicks that should be the absolute last choice. If you'll notice, they're very small and designed to cool only one side of the harddisk, namely the PCB side. This side usually doesn't get hot, it's the metal casing which acts as a heatsink that gets hot. Not only that, the fans will re-circulate the hot air around the harddrives, keeping them in a hot air sauna. Yes, it will be cooler than nothing, but it's not a good choice.

If negative pressure cooling isn't successful, why is it a requirement for milspec? Shoot, look at professional audio mixers. They'll have a couple of fans on them. And they're all exhaust fans.

Keeping the side of the computer open WILL NOT solve cooling issues. Unless you're forcing air, leaving the side of the case open will force you to rely on heat radiating from the source. This is compounded by the fact that most all cases have their harddrive's cages (which do a wonderful job of insulating them) positioned laterally in the case. Thus any heat radiated directly from the drive has to be either soaked up by the cage, or sent forward into the front of the case or rearward over the motherboard.

The reason that harddrive coolers are designed the way they are is actually covered in your post. They're designed to cool the PCB. The metal part of the harddrive is actually designed from metal because metal is a much better conductor than PCB. Ever wonder why they don't use any other material than metal for the upper portion of the drives? The reason why they use metal, is it's almost like a heatsink for the drive. The PCB is not afforded this luxury of a heatsink, so they design those aforementioned coolers to move air over them.

[lingling]

If negative pressure cooling isn't successful, why is it a requirement for milspec? Shoot, look at professional audio mixers. They'll have a couple of fans on them. And they're all exhaust fans.

Successful but best suitable in relatively clean enviroments. The Bangkok air with all its dust (much of which is conductive - full of metallic and carbon particles etc) is a disaster for electronics, so if you can feed your computer, house, apartment, car etc with filtered air, you, your computer, TV, stereo etc will stay healthy a bit longer.

[dave_boo]

Whats are ok temps for intel cpus, asus motherboards and seagate hard drives when PC is idle?

Just had mine built and I'm trying to get a feel of what is right and what is wrong.

Many Thanks

It's hard to say without knowing exact models.

For instance, Intel CPUs can be up to 74 C for P4 models, and Core Duo is 100 C. Motherboards are much harder to determine, but the temperature delta that's usually accepted is 7-10 C. That means the monitor should register just 7-10 C of whatever ambient temperature is. Seagate harddrives, consumer level anyways, should be less than 69 C. Please remember these are all maximum values (with the exception of the case). In actuallity, you would probably want +/- 15 C (CPU) and +/- 10 C (harddrive) above ambient temperatures.

[dave_boo]

If negative pressure cooling isn't successful, why is it a requirement for milspec? Shoot, look at professional audio mixers. They'll have a couple of fans on them. And they're all exhaust fans.

Successful but best suitable in relatively clean enviroments. The Bangkok air with all its dust (much of which is conductive - full of metallic and carbon particles etc) is a disaster for electronics, so if you can feed your computer, house, apartment, car etc with filtered air, you, your computer, TV, stereo etc will stay healthy a bit longer.

Well, there are filters for intake fans. Granted, that doesn't help much if you're relying solely on negative pressure, but it's an option.

Also, it doesn't hurt to clean your 'puter out a couple times a year. Granted, it kills your uptime (assuming you're running Linux ), but it's cool to dive into the guts of your machine. Just unplug it and let it sit an hour or two. Otherwise, you might find out that capacitors actually keep their charge much longer than you'd think.

As a humourous(?) side story, when I was little, I like most childern was fascinated with wall sockets. Bubbie said, don't stick your finger in them, here's a penny. I quickly learned why I shouldn't mess with them.

[colino]

I have seen small usb fans quite good very flexable maybe not ideal but a quick fix

[Tywais]

Whats are ok temps for intel cpus, asus motherboards and seagate hard drives when PC is idle?

This is what my current system temperatures are at:

Temperatures:

Motherboard 34 °C (95 °F)

CPU 34 °C (126 °F)

GPU 52 °C (126 °F)

Maxtor 6V250F0 37 °C (99 °F)

Maxtor 6V300F0 38 °C (100 °F)

Room ambient 29 °C

CPU E6600 core2duo

Hardisks - 2 Sata II 1 250G 1 300G

Motherboard Asus P5BE-Plus

Case - CoolerMaster

Power Supply - CoolerMaster 550W True Power.

Video - Asus EN6600GTX Silencer (no fan) 512MB

Case - 120cm Intake (blows directly across the hard drives), 120cm Exhaust, Power Supply 120cm Exhaust, 120cm Side fan

[Daffy D]

I have 2 HDD’s in my set up. One is mounted in the usual place under the Floppy slot and cooled with a fan system like “lingling”’s photo.

The other is mounted between the two CD drives where there is not enough room to mount that sort of fan so have a front mounted fan system as in this photo.

D.D.

[Firefoxx]

Computer cases are not all designed equal. There are cases with holes in the side, at the bottom, and whatnot. You *might* get some cooling with negative pressure, but it's nowhere as good as a system that has positive pressure or good airflow. As for milspec, are we actually using this computer in Iraq or something? Do you always buy merchandise according to milspec? No. The reason is because milspec is for military use, and maybe sometimes it's good for civilian use, but not always. Many times it's weird or overkill.

I probably should have said "keeping the side open with a desktop fan blowing in", to be exact, but I assumed that people would just read the previous responses and know that I was referring to that solution. I guess not, people tend to jump on any omissions or things taken for granted.

Touch the PCB of your harddrive. Then touch the harddrive itself. Which is hotter? Now, take a case with good cooling, one that has fans actually hitting the harddrives, and compare the harddrive temps to one that's just using the harddrive coolers. Which harddrive is cooler? The answer is pretty obvious. The reason that harddrive coolers are designed that way is because of necessity, not good design. The harddrive coolers have to be connected to the drive, and the only mounting position possible is the underside, since you have horizontal screw holes there. Now, if you had a harddrive cooler that was mounted to the side, that would be much more effective, but it's not practical.

[dave_boo]

Computer cases are not all designed equal. There are cases with holes in the side, at the bottom, and whatnot. You *might* get some cooling with negative pressure, but it's nowhere as good as a system that has positive pressure or good airflow. As for milspec, are we actually using this computer in Iraq or something? Do you always buy merchandise according to milspec? No. The reason is because milspec is for military use, and maybe sometimes it's good for civilian use, but not always. Many times it's weird or overkill.

I probably should have said "keeping the side open with a desktop fan blowing in", to be exact, but I assumed that people would just read the previous responses and know that I was referring to that solution. I guess not, people tend to jump on any omissions or things taken for granted.

Touch the PCB of your harddrive. Then touch the harddrive itself. Which is hotter? Now, take a case with good cooling, one that has fans actually hitting the harddrives, and compare the harddrive temps to one that's just using the harddrive coolers. Which harddrive is cooler? The answer is pretty obvious. The reason that harddrive coolers are designed that way is because of necessity, not good design. The harddrive coolers have to be connected to the drive, and the only mounting position possible is the underside, since you have horizontal screw holes there. Now, if you had a harddrive cooler that was mounted to the side, that would be much more effective, but it's not practical.

I'm sorry, but your thinking is wrong. While many cases are "porous", few are designed to maximumise balanced cooling. Ideally, you'd want fans fore and aft that are bringing air in at the bottom, and fans at the top rear exhauting that air.

Positive airflow is the antithesis of good cooling. Why? Think of it this way: which produce more lift, a heliocopter (which utilises postive airflow by displacing air downwards from the rotors) or a fixed wing aircraft (which utilises negative airflow by creating a vaccum under the wings)? For the same size engine, which can lift more?

Milspec isn't weird or overkill (well maybe overkill, but better is usually better). In fact many things that we now take for granted today started off as milspec. If the specification or design is good enough to work in extreme enviroments, what would exclude those same principles from working in not so extreme enviroments? After all, the industry (as most industries are) is based on maximising their profits. Hence, poor design is the norm rather than the exception.

I'm apologise if you feel that I slighted your comment about leaving the side open, but it's still a fact that's not a solution. Furthermore, I even touched on the fact that you could use a fan, so I don't know why there's an issue about you feeling I'm nitpicking your arguments.

You do understand that the metal part feels hotter than the PCB due to the simple fact that metal is a better conductor of heat than PCB? This doesn't mean that the PCB is cooler, merely that it transfers heat to your fingertips more slowly than metal, if it transfers as much at all. After all, Aluminium has a heat conductivity of ~237W/mK, with PCB being more like ~15W/mK. This isn't implying that the individual traces, chips, etc. aren't as hot (or most likely hotter due to the insulating effect of the PCB) than the rest of the drive.

Of course a well designed case will be better than just using those harddrive coolers in his current case. However, it was a suggestion that is cheaper than buying a new case. Not a better suggestion, but a stop-gap measure that someone on a more limited budget could look into.

A side mounted cooler for harddrives:

A cooler that will chill the top and sides of drives:

A non-water cooler that cools the top and sides:

Please provide evidence to back up your claims as I have done.

[Tywais]

Please provide evidence to back up your claims as I have done.

I don't think it's necessary to go into this depth regarding cooling for the OP. Those coolers will cost as much as a medium quality case here in Thailand and that is really his best solution without knowing the physical layout of his existing case and what will fit. For example you can get an Enermax case (without PS - shown below) for about 1250 Baht, and non-brand with sufficient fans for even less. A Thermaltake HDD cooler - 1250.00 Baht. So relax guys.

[dave_boo]

Please provide evidence to back up your claims as I have done.

I don't think it's necessary to go into this depth regarding cooling for the OP. Those coolers will cost as much as a medium quality case here in Thailand and that is really his best solution without knowing the physical layout of his existing case and what will fit. For example you can get an Enermax case (without PS - shown below) for about 1250 Baht, and non-brand with sufficient fans for even less. A Thermaltake HDD cooler - 1250.00 Baht. So relax guys.

I apologise. I'm a stickler for information, even it at at times I may be overwhelming the questioner. Knowing all facts is imperative to making an informed decision, and I would expect the same courtesy extended to me if I was asking for help.

In regards to keeping it civil, I also apologise for that. I felt that misinformation was being spread and I was attempting to correct it. I may have gone above and beyond the call for proper protocol though.

[MaiChai]

I always keep it simple. Most modern cases have a duct at the side to allow the air from the cpu fan to be ducted out of the case. In addition, the psu has a fan, and generally there is space at the back of the system for one or two additional fans. Remember Thailand is a hot country compared to N Europe/America and electronics needs to be kept cool, so a case here will need more cooling. The general idea is the fans suck the hot air out of the system, thus pulling in cooler air from outside. The front of a case generally has a grill which allows such air to be sucked into the system. So the air flows from the front to the back and side. You can install additional fans in your system; typically 25 baht a go (shop around in your favourite IT mall). My main system has two fans at the back, the cpu duct, psu fan, and I put one more in the front to take hot air away from the hard drives. Modern AMD cpus seem much cooler than Intel ones (although it used to be the other way round). If money is a problem you can buy second hand cases; 300/400 baht without PSU. Be careful if your system is old or is using a non standard case (cheapskate Dells/Compaqs/Acers often cut corners by using non standard cases); you may not be able to move your components over to a new case.

Edited May 21, 2007 by MaiChai

[Firefoxx]

OK, dave, now you're REALLY going off track. Please go back really really far and re-read everything. I mean everything.

The gist of my whole argument was that there should be good airflow, with equal (no positive, no negative) pressure, derived from equal inflow/exhaust. I have in NO WAY said that positive or negative pressure is GOOD. PLEASE READ IT. If you care to, you can look up my old posts on the issue (there are plenty).

Second, the first statement I made about opening the side of the case was NEGATIVE not positive. As in "It's the solution for people who can't be bothered." and stuff like "dust, stuff getting inside". PLEASE READ IT.

Basically, only the FIRST paragraph was what I RECOMMENDED. Everything else was about how the other solutions mentioned would NOT be as efficient. OK? A new case costs, what, less than 2k? Not only does it solve the HDD heat, it also solves internal cooling issues.

Third, if we all went milspec, we'd be paying a LOT more for simple everyday items than we are right now. Milspec is for survival in extreme conditions. I really doubt that your computer is even slightly up to milspec.

You do notice that of all the pics of all the really extreme harddrive coolers you have provided, they all cool the top and sides, IE, the metal parts. None of them give even lip service to the PCB. That's because the PCB doesn't get hot enough to be of concern. If it did, you'd see heatsinks on the chips, it's common practice you know. For a chip to get into the danger zone, it'd need to be pretty scorching hot, yes, so hot that you can easily feel it with your finger. If it's just warm to the touch (the conductivity thing doesn't matter here) like they usually do then it's just fine. Now, the metal parts, they get scorching hot. This Is A Bad Thing.

Nice arguing with ya, even though you seem to misread everything. Sorry for all the caps, but I'm getting flabbergasted by the way you tend to misinterpret things. Sorry, I don't care to provide any proof whatsoever, I'm under no obligation to waste more of my time.

[yeti]

Thanks for all the replies, this heated debat about cooling was informative.

I now have a long term solution: changing the case, which is time consuming (I have less time than money), plenty of short term solutions and a better understanding of the whole thing.

[pete_r]

Positive airflow is the antithesis of good cooling. Why? Think of it this way: which produce more lift, a heliocopter (which utilises postive airflow by displacing air downwards from the rotors) or a fixed wing aircraft (which utilises negative airflow by creating a vaccum under the wings)? For the same size engine, which can lift more?

Sorry... Cannot resist... Fixed wing aircrafts can fly because a zone of lower pressure is created above the wing, while a zone of higher pressure is created under the wing. If it was the other way round, the aircraft wouldn't even take off...

[MarkBKK]

... a heliocopter (which utilises postive airflow by displacing air downwards from the rotors) or a fixed wing aircraft (which utilises negative airflow by creating a vaccum under the wings)? For the same size engine, which can lift more?

What?

[dave_boo]

Positive airflow is the antithesis of good cooling. Why? Think of it this way: which produce more lift, a heliocopter (which utilises postive airflow by displacing air downwards from the rotors) or a fixed wing aircraft (which utilises negative airflow by creating a vaccum under the wings)? For the same size engine, which can lift more?

Sorry... Cannot resist... Fixed wing aircrafts can fly because a zone of lower pressure is created above the wing, while a zone of higher pressure is created under the wing. If it was the other way round, the aircraft wouldn't even take off...

Thanks for catching that typo.

[dave_boo]

Thanks for all the replies, this heated debat about cooling was informative.

I now have a long term solution: changing the case, which is time consuming (I have less time than money), plenty of short term solutions and a better understanding of the whole thing.

I think if time is more important to you than money, you'd definitely want to change the case. If you take your computer to Pantip or MBK, and drop it off at one of those computer repair places, they could have the whole of the "guts" of your computer replaced in 1/2 hour or so. So about the same amount of time or less than it would take you to go there, find a fan of the proper size and install it yourself.

This will actually save you time in the long run, because running at the temperatures you're quoting will seriously shorten the lifespans of your harddrives. And there's nothing worst than a crashed harddrive. If it is the one containing your Operating System, you have to get a new harddrive and reinstall. You'll also lose all data on that drive, so unless you're backing it up on an external drive, you'd have to send it off to a data recovery place. Those places are neither cheap, nor usually very quick about recovering your stuff.

Just a couple of points to consider.