The Myth of the Thai Tones

[Kinnock]

Like many, I struggled to speak Thai in a way that people really understood what I was saying, even though my listening skills were good enough for me to follow conversations.

 

And Thai friends would constantly correct my tones, so almost everything I said was followed by an echo as a Thai friend corrected my tone.

 

So I decided to really focus on the tones.  I started by trying to pin-point the right tone for each tonal word - and that's where things got interesting.

 

As most know - the 'falling', 'rising', 'high', 'low' is all BS, and the tone marks on Thai script are pretty useless too.  You need to know the 'shape' of the sound for each tonal word, but that's where the problems start.

 

There is no consistency between native Thai speakers.

 

When I asked different people to pronounce some of the commonly confused words, such as the Thai words for 'far' and 'near' I heard many different tones for the same words.  And Thai friends would always launch that annoying party trick of "mai, mai, mai" or "maa, maa, maa, maa" whenever I asked for help with tones.

 

So I did an experiment.

 

I wrote some of the the easily confused  dog/horse/near/far/burn/new type words in Thai on flash cards, and showed them just the single word with no context in a way that only the speaking person could see the card - then asked them to read the word.

 

The native Thai listers failed to guess the correct word around 50% of the time, which was not that far from a complete random guess.

 

I then gave the speaker a short sentence which put the word in context, and accuracy by the listeners jumped to 100%.

 

I now realise tones are more like regional accents than strict rules, and that Thai people actually use context more than tone to understand the meaning.  I also realised my attempts at tones were adding to the confusion when I spoke.

 

So now I focus on keeping my tone flat and level when I speak Thai, and people have no problem understanding me.

 

The "mai, mai, mai" monologue is nothing more than a way for Thai's to show off to the stupid falang, and with perhaps a few exceptions such as the 'mai' used as a question word, tones are unnecessary for everyday speech.  And the tone for the "mai" question is common in English too, where "why" can be a question or a statement, but 90% of the other tones are just Thai's being pedantic as they don't understand the tones in the absence of context.

 

I guess the people who've sweated blood for 20 years learning Thai tones will not agree with me - but I believe such people have learned to speak the equivalent of BBC Queen's English, which is just not the way 99% of people in the UK speak.

[wasabi]

I don't think the tones are mythological; they can help clarify meaning, but their distinction in isolation is less helpful than some say as you demonstrated. Another issue is the fact ร ror rua is often pronounced ล law ling. So even if you pronounce the word right using the R sound many from Issan won't recognize it unless you replace it with an l due to "lazy tongues" 

[1FinickyOne]

you showed them... 

 

I am self taught through conversation and always thought context was most important as i rarely know the correct tone... 

 

Thanks for doing the research

[ColeBOzbourne]

On 5/31/2021 at 8:51 PM, Kinnock said:

So I did an experiment.

 

I wrote some of the the easily confused  dog/horse/near/far/burn/new type words in Thai on flash cards, and showed them just the single word with no context in a way that only the speaking person could see the card - then asked them to read the word.

 

The native Thai listers failed to guess the correct word around 50% of the time, which was not that far from a complete random guess.

 

I then gave the speaker a short sentence which put the word in context, and accuracy by the listeners jumped to 100%.

An interesting experiment, I've often wondered what the results of something like that might be. It sounds like something informal you just did with friends, but my science background comes into play and makes me curious about details. For example: How large was your sample, how many people did you involve in this experiment? How many words were used? Did the people know ahead of time what you were testing? Did the reader and the listener switch roles?

 

It would be interesting to have a large sample of people and set it up as a blind study where neither the reader nor the listener knows what is being tested. If the reader knows, for example, then they could possibly alter results by over-pronunciation of the tone on purpose. An interesting idea might be to record the readers on video and then show to a number of listeners.

 

Interesting post. Thanks.

[Logosone]

I'm learning Thai right now and looking at tones so this post was really helpful.

 

It does affect reading though, doesn't it, as there are different letters/marks for different tones?

[Bredbury Blue]

I'm sceptical on your theory.

 

So you are basically saying that we can pronounce every word in a mid/normal tone and 

Thais work out the tone and the meaning of the word used from the context of the sentence.

 

Sometimes you will be right, if there's a horse in a field and I say that maa (horse) has to go", then Thais can work out it is the horse I'm talking about.

But if there's a horse and a dog in a field (both 'maa' in Thai but different tones) and I say "that maa has to go", then Thais cannot work out if it is the horse or dog I'm talking about.

 

So to a point you are correct but there will be instances when the incorrect pronunciation will confuse the other person or make no sense to them.

 

It would therefore be better to learn and use tones and if you pronounce with the wrong tone unlucky but you'll probably learn from that mistake.

[Caldera]

Even in my early days in Thailand, when my pronunciation surely was atrocious, there were some Thais who understood me almost without fail, while I had no luck whatsoever with others.

 

I think many Thais just aren't wired to think outside of the box and to make sense of what sounds like nonsense to them, by applying context and common sense. And not used to foreigners speaking Thai.

 

In many cases, it's comical. Sometimes I overhear a fellow foreigner in front of me order food. No matter how bad their Thai pronunciation is, I can easily understand what they want, just because there's a limited number of dishes they could possibly want to order. Still, more often than I'd expect, the Thai working there has no idea.

[JackGats]

I have a weird problem with tones. When I hear tones, I can repeat them correctly and I can tell whether two tones are different from one another or identical. But when asked (in a drill) to say which tone is which I get the names wrong. In other words I can imitate it, I can hear it, but I can't name it. And from what I can make out  it's not even like I would wrongly name two tones that should sound a bit like one another (like the rising and the high tone). I would more often mistake the low tone for the high or the rising tone for the falling tone. Worse still, if I know the name of a tone and tell to myself "careful this is falling tone" I'm more likely to pronounce it wrong than if I just listen to it and imitate it without knowing which one it is.

 

I have learned the tone rules and I have them on a cheat sheet but I don't find them helpful. They are much too cumbersome to be implementable in oral speech. I think the only way forward is to remember words or groups of words that go together, and to have those at the back of your mind when you speak.

 

As to tone drills, they could be useful provided they consist in phrases, not in one-syllable words.

[Kinnock]

12 hours ago, Logosone said:

I'm learning Thai right now and looking at tones so this post was really helpful.

 

It does affect reading though, doesn't it, as there are different letters/marks for different tones?

Yes there are tone marks over some of the tonal letters, but there also some letters with no tones marks that have tones.  And in theory the effect of the tone Mark's is different for different letters.  Also the interpretation of the tone Mark's is not consistent between different readers.

[Kinnock]

5 hours ago, JackGats said:

I have a weird problem with tones. When I hear tones, I can repeat them correctly and I can tell whether two tones are different from one another or identical. But when asked (in a drill) to say which tone is which I get the names wrong. In other words I can imitate it, I can hear it, but I can't name it. And from what I can make out  it's not even like I would wrongly name two tones that should sound a bit like one another (like the rising and the high tone). I would more often mistake the low tone for the high or the rising tone for the falling tone. Worse still, if I know the name of a tone and tell to myself "careful this is falling tone" I'm more likely to pronounce it wrong than if I just listen to it and imitate it without knowing which one it is.

 

I have learned the tone rules and I have them on a cheat sheet but I don't find them helpful. They are much too cumbersome to be implementable in oral speech. I think the only way forward is to remember words or groups of words that go together, and to have those at the back of your mind when you speak.

 

As to tone drills, they could be useful provided they consist in phrases, not in one-syllable words.

In my experience Thai native speakers have the same problem.  They can recite their tone party tricks, but in practice they cannot distinguish the tones reliably.

[Kinnock]

12 hours ago, Bredbury Blue said:

I'm sceptical on your theory.

 

So you are basically saying that we can pronounce every word in a mid/normal tone and 

Thais work out the tone and the meaning of the word used from the context of the sentence.

 

Sometimes you will be right, if there's a horse in a field and I say that maa (horse) has to go", then Thais can work out it is the horse I'm talking about.

But if there's a horse and a dog in a field (both 'maa' in Thai but different tones) and I say "that maa has to go", then Thais cannot work out if it is the horse or dog I'm talking about.

 

So to a point you are correct but there will be instances when the incorrect pronunciation will confuse the other person or make no sense to them.

 

It would therefore be better to learn and use tones and if you pronounce with the wrong tone unlucky but you'll probably learn from that mistake.

Yep - that's what I'm saying.  And in my test, my Thai friends could not distinguish between horse and dog reliably.  It would have to be very unusual and specific circumstances where there was no context at all, so in normal speech the problem does not occur.

[Kinnock]

14 hours ago, ColeBOzbourne said:

An interesting experiment, I've often wondered what the results of something like that might be. It sounds like something informal you just did with friends, but my science background comes into play and makes me curious about details. For example: How large was your sample, how many people did you involve in this experiment? How many words were used? Did the people know ahead of time what you were testing? Did the reader and the listener switch roles?

 

It would be interesting to have a large sample of people and set it up as a blind study where neither the reader nor the listener knows what is being tested. If the reader knows, for example, then they could possibly alter results by over-pronunciation of the tone on purpose. An interesting idea might be to record the readers on video and then show to a number of listeners.

 

Interesting post. Thanks.

You are right that this was more of an informal, fun test with friends, and a wider, more scientific test is needed to prove my theory - but it was not a totally invalid test.

 

I tried the same flash cards in different settings and with friends originally from different regions of Thailand - although Bangkok and Samut Prakarn was the majority of people's family origin, but there was also one from Chonburi, one Lampang and two Chiang Mai in the mix 

 

I did not swap reader/listener roles as I did not tell them what I was testing, although this started to become clear as the test went on, but interestingly accuracy did not improve with time, except in cases where subtle actions were used to try to improve performance (especially with the dog/horse example).

 

My friends know I struggle with tones, and quickly realised the purpose of the game, but by switching roles I felt there would be even more collusion to try and prove me wrong, so we'd stop after around 10 words.

 

I admit there could be big improvements in the way the test was run, and in the statistical analysis, but it was enough to  convince me that tones are not a reliable, consistent form of communication. 

 

My Thai friends were amused by their poor performance, but not unduly worried.  By it's nature Thai is a very imprecise language compared to English.  You can't tell tense or intent without context for example.

 

I would like to see a proper scientific study with a large random sample of people - but the more nationalistic  Establishment Thais may not like the findings, so I think it unlikely it will ever happen.

[KeeTua]

20 hours ago, Logosone said:

I'm learning Thai right now and looking at tones so this post was really helpful.

 

It does affect reading though, doesn't it, as there are different letters/marks for different tones?

It is necessary to know the tone of the syllables to get the correct meaning of a word when reading but you can probably get by ok based on the context without fully understanding the tone rules. But knowing the tone rules is very important if the day comes you want to be able to correctly spell/write Thai words that you hear spoken.

[KeeTua]

7 hours ago, Kinnock said:

Yes there are tone marks over some of the tonal letters, but there also some letters with no tones marks that have tones.  And in theory the effect of the tone Mark's is different for different letters.  Also the interpretation of the tone Mark's is not consistent between different readers.

The leading consonant determines the tone of a syllable. On occasion a tone mark is used to modify the tone of a syllable. How the tone is modified by a tone mark, when used, depends on which consonant class the initial syllable belongs to. The vast majority of syllables do not have a tone mark but all the syllables have a tone nonetheless.

[KeeTua]

7 hours ago, Kinnock said:

I would like to see a proper scientific study with a large random sample of people

It seems like it would be very easy to record conversations then analyze the audio with software that will detect all the changes of tone and output the shapes in a visual form. I'd be very curious to see the results of something like that.

 

It’s possible the tones are there when talking but very subtle and hard for people to consciously detect but the brain is an amazing processor and can detect the subtleties.

 

I appreciate the effort you've put into making your case regarding tones and personally I believe that when stringing several words together getting your vowels correct is more important than worrying over the tones.

 

[JackGats]

1 hour ago, KeeTua said:

The leading consonant determines the tone of a syllable. On occasion a tone mark is used to modify the tone of a syllable. How the tone is modified by a tone mark, when used, depends on which consonant class the initial syllable belongs to. The vast majority of syllables do not have a tone mark but all the syllables have a tone nonetheless.

And if that were not complicated enough, you have to watch out for whether the syllable is "dead" or "alive". And if it's a dead syllable whether the vowel is short or long. It's a four to five-step algorithm. OK if you're solving a math problem, useless if you need to decide in a fraction of a second.

[clivebaxter]

I honestly cannot hear any tones at all, so have no interest in this crude language any longer

[KeeTua]

43 minutes ago, JackGats said:

And if that were not complicated enough, you have to watch out for whether the syllable is "dead" or "alive". And if it's a dead syllable whether the vowel is short or long. It's a four to five-step algorithm. OK if you're solving a math problem, useless if you need to decide in a fraction of a second.

Thanks for pointing out those other items that can determine the tone. Learning to read Thai and sorting out the tones based on the 'four to five-step algorithm' is certainly good mental exercise at least.

[KeeTua]

40 minutes ago, clivebaxter said:

I honestly cannot hear any tones at all, so have no interest in this crude language any longer

Then why visit the Thai language forum if you don't have any interest in this 'crude' language?

[ColeBOzbourne]

40 minutes ago, JackGats said:

And if that were not complicated enough, you have to watch out for whether the syllable is "dead" or "alive". And if it's a dead syllable whether the vowel is short or long. It's a four to five-step algorithm. OK if you're solving a math problem, useless if you need to decide in a fraction of a second.

True, it's very complicated when first learning. I had a little 'cheat sheet' card that I referred to often. But with time, like a year, and lots of practice reading I no longer need the cheat sheet. Rarely does it come to me in a fraction of a second, but little by little I can tell it is registering in my brain faster and more automatically without need for deciphering those 'algorithms'.  People shouldn't be discouraged, just keep at it.

[ColeBOzbourne]

In an attempt to be lazy I tried typing some 'like-sounding' words into Google Translate to possibly conduct the experiment more easily. You can type entries such as: "rice white news" or "near far" or "horse dog" and then hit the sound icon on the Thai side and hear the words pronounced one after the other. But GT emphasizes the tones very clearly, so I don't think it would bring the same results as the OP's experiment. Native speakers, in any language, often become lackadaisical with enunciation, and in Thai it can result in the difference between tones becoming very subtle.

[SABloke]

I didn't spend 20 years sweating to learn tones, I just learnt them from the start, and disagree that they are BS. I think your experiment might have some flaws: Out of interest, were all the speakers and listeners speaking with the same regional accent? If not, then clearly they need context because context matters when listening to different accents. For example, I can clearly understand the difference when someone from my hometown says just the word "close" - I can hear if they mean "to shut" or "near". However, if someone from a different country says only the word I would guess if they meant "to shut" or "near"  - a 50% accuracy.

 

In the same way, I think that if you did the same experiment with my local family members, they would probably be 100% correct. I have done similar experiments and I am correct when I hear just the word with no context (in the dialect that I understand or listen to predominantly)

[OJAS]

On 5/31/2021 at 8:51 PM, Kinnock said:

And Thai friends would constantly correct my tones, so almost everything I said was followed by an echo as a Thai friend corrected my tone.

 

I seriously wonder how they might react if you were to nit-pick every little flaw on their part in expressing themselves in the English language!

 

[kokesaat]

3 hours ago, KeeTua said:

Thanks for pointing out those other items that can determine the tone. Learning to read Thai and sorting out the tones based on the 'four to five-step algorithm' is certainly good mental exercise at least.

I made it through about 20 lessons of Maani before working on tones.  The early lessons of Maani were difficult enough trying to decypher a ฉ  from an อ or a ท from a ห.....but I did reasonably well with my one-on-one teacher.  When I started to tackle tones, and continued with the Manni series, that's when my brain turned to mush after about 20 minutes.  But I stuck with it and got to the point where my brain didn't have to break down the letters of the word along with the tone.......well, for most common words, anyway.  

I got to the point where I could easily identify the class of consonant, the type of tone for most any syllable, and the difference between long and short vowels.  But as time went on, applying those rules became second nature and if someone asked me to differentiate those things today, I probably couldn't......but I'd be able to get the tone right.

My wife will often tell me the Thai name of some insect or plant that I'm not familiar with.  I ask her to spell the word for me.......along with the tone........once she does, I can look the word up in a dictionary or google it.  I've seen plenty of times where she says the word with the proper tone......but when I ask her to verbally spell it with the tone, she'll often stumble on the tone.   I get the sense that it's like tying your shoes or riding a bike.....we don't have to think about it......anymore.  

I'm far from being anything more than a basic intermediate student of Thai.......but mastering the tones and reading have made my life using the language so much more enjoyable.  Thais generally understand what I'm saying......unless I'm saying it wrong to begin with.

 

[ColeBOzbourne]

1 hour ago, SABloke said:

In the same way, I think that if you did the same experiment with my local family members, they would probably be 100% correct. I have done similar experiments and I am correct when I hear just the word with no context (in the dialect that I understand or listen to predominantly)

You raise some valid points. You can't test more than one variable at a time so speakers from different regions would be effected both by tone and accent. However, testing local family members with each other would also skew the results because they are so familiar with each other's way of talking. Similar to a mother that can understand her toddler babbling but nobody else can. My girlfriend can understand me far better than other people. So results may be more valid if the participants were from the same region and did not know each other.

[KeeTua]

1 hour ago, kokesaat said:

My wife will often tell me the Thai name of some insect or plant that I'm not familiar with.  I ask her to spell the word for me.......along with the tone........once she does, I can look the word up in a dictionary or google it.

Do you ever have her just pronounce the words clearly for you and then you figure out the spelling? That's a fun challenge for me if the words are simple enough with no unusual/uncommon consonants or endings.

[kokesaat]

4 minutes ago, KeeTua said:

Do you ever have her just pronounce the words clearly for you and then you figure out the spelling? That's a fun challenge for me if the words are simple enough with no unusual/uncommon consonants or endings.

Yes, often times she'll be unsure of the spelling.....like the Thai word for zinnia.....but the beauty of google is that even if I type in what I think is ดอกบ้านชื้น, google will self-correct it for zinnia and then I have the correct spelling.  

I wish learning Thai tones would have been as easy as learning to type in Thai.......on a scale of 1-10......typing Thai = 3, Thai tones (and rules) = 10

[Kinnock]

6 hours ago, KeeTua said:

Then why visit the Thai language forum if you don't have any interest in this 'crude' language?

I wish it was crude!  I think the issue is that it's way too complex.

 

Bahasa Malay/Indonesian is a simple language.  Korean is a very logical language, but Thai, with it's labyrinthine tone rules and multiple letters to express exactly the same sounds must be the hardest to learn .... properly   So hard that I believe Thai people themselves simplify the language.

 

Posts in Thai on social media often have a simpler way of writing, combining Thai version of English and a more informal 'child-like' structure.

 

I heard there was an attempt to simplify the written language just after WW2, but it was blocked by the ruling elite.  After all, any barriers to educating the masses must be maintained.

[kokesaat]

54 minutes ago, Kinnock said:

"   So hard that I believe Thai people themselves simplify the language."

Yeah, that's not something us educated people would do:  lol......lmfao

[DUNROAMIN]

And dont forget, from North to South there can be a big difference in Thai language.