Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application - Part 2 - Getting The Id Card

[dbrenn]

Hi Again All,

For those who are interested, this post covers the procedure that I followed once the Police Department had given me my certificate of citizenship, which I previously described here:

Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

A certificate of citizenship is all well and good, and looks very impressive printed on high quality thick card with various rubber stamps and a Police General's signature. However, the certificate itself is useless without the ID card that it entitles you to. It's the ID card that actually allows you to do things. Surely, I thought, all I have to do now is go to my local Ampher (disrict office), present this flashy certificate, and I will be welcomed with open arms and given an ID card in 5 minutes as a matter of formality. Well, I did get the ID card, but, as usual in Thailand, the process was entertainingly complex, to say the least. In my enthusiasm, I was forgetting that anything that I have ever done at an Ampher takes at least two attempts - the first to see exactly what this particular set of officials wants according to their own interpretation of the rather ambiguous laws; and the second attempt to provide them with the documentation in the way that they want it ...

FIRST ATTEMPT:

1) Went to my Ampher with every conceivable document along with the certificate of cisizenship, and presented it to one of the officials in the Tabien section

2) Sat there for a while and waited patiently. He looked totally confused and was frowning as he shuffled through all the papers. He got out the rule book and read it for a while. Then, he told me to go away and make photocopies of my citizenship certificate, all the other papers that accompanied it, including my certificate of residence, my alien registration certificate, my Tabien Bahn, my work permit

3) I made all the copies and went back to the same official. He made me sign all the copies, then he went away and spoke to a couple of his higher ups. After a while, he came back and told me that they have never done this before, and that they would need time to "study" the rules. He told me that I would need an interview with the boss of the Ampher. According to his interpretation of the rules, even though I had received the permission of both the King and the Interior Minister, changing my citizenship to Thai was a matter of great sensitivity and could not be done witout exhaustive checking of all my documents. He gave me a telehone number to call the following day, once he and his colleagues had taken a closer look

Needless to say, even my legendary patience in situations like these was starting to wear a little thin, but of course I kept smiling and didn't show displeasure. Looking at the dozey people in my local Ampher, who seemed to have no grasp of the rules, I called the official in the Police Department who handled my application to ask for advice. I was told to go to a different Ampher, one that is more adept at handling such applications and whose officials knew the process. This came as a surprise to me, as I thought that such a procedure could only be done at my local Ampher, but I am no expert and so I followed this advice.

SECOND ATTEMPT:

1) Went to the recommended Ampher, whereupon I was initially was told to go back to my own Ampher. Upon gentle insistence that I had been sent there, I befriended one of the officials and told him that his Ampher was specifically recommended. Now, at last, the process could begin in earnest

2) I was told to go away and make copies of every conceivable document (again)

3) I was temporarily "moved" to a Tabien Bahn within the catchment area of this new Ampher

4) I was told to go away and come back with four photos

5) I signed a whole mass of forms

6) My photo was stuck in a big book, and the official manually wrote a page-long commentary of my application

7) I was told to produce a Thai witness (apparently all first ID cards need a witness)

8) My witness (one of my friends who worked nearby) kindly arrived and filled out various forms

9) Lunch time - I was told to come back in an hour

10) Had all my forms approved by the boss of the Tabien section

11) The nationality line on my (new) Tabien Bahn was amended from my old nationality to "Thai"

11) Went to the ID card issuing section - signed more forms. Commentary of my application was written manually into another book, register style, similar to the first but a different colour. I Was asked to go away and come back with some more photocopies of sundry personal documents that were apparently missing from the first set

12) Had my photo taken against a measure to show my height. Had my thumb prints electronically read

13) Paid 25 Baht

14) Got my ID card - at last. In answer to a previous question, my citizen ID begins with the number 8

Now the cleanup - I need to move back to my old Tabien Bahn. I can do this as and when I please, and it is a simple process. Can't wait to see the faces of the people in my old Ampher when they see that I have made a pilgrimmage to a new Ampher to perform a task that they were not capable fo doing.

Thai bureacracy is an interesting mix of old and new - there are computers at the Ampher upon which citizen records are kept. The ID card was issued in 5 minutes and made on the spot using the latest technology, but only after wading through a bureacratic system that can only be described as dickensian. Oh well, I did get my ID card, and this is a once in a lifetime experience.

Cheers

[jdinasia]

Congrats! and next ... the passport? and first trip to laos?

[Crossy]

Great stuff, can't wait for 'Episode Three, the Amphur Move"

Hmm, like JD I would love to be a fly on the wall when you attempt to enter Laos with your Thai passport

[CMexpat]

Great post dbrenn! I have also read your first thread with great interest. I really appreciate you sharing these experiences, I have done some research on this for two years and this is the best info that i have come across so far.

In a few years I plan to go down that path as well. I have my PR three years now. One of the things that i did after receiving the PR was splitting my salary that i take out of my company with my wife to reduce the amount of income tax that we pay. From reading your thread i understand that you need to pay tax over a salary of at least 80,000 per month or pay a minimum of 100,000 tax per year. Is it correct that you only need to do this in the last year, which is the year you apply for the citizenship?

Again very informative thread, many thanks.

[dbrenn]

Great post dbrenn! I have also read your first thread with great interest. I really appreciate you sharing these experiences, I have done some research on this for two years and this is the best info that i have come across so far.

In a few years I plan to go down that path as well. I have my PR three years now. One of the things that i did after receiving the PR was splitting my salary that i take out of my company with my wife to reduce the amount of income tax that we pay. From reading your thread i understand that you need to pay tax over a salary of at least 80,000 per month or pay a minimum of 100,000 tax per year. Is it correct that you only need to do this in the last year, which is the year you apply for the citizenship?

Again very informative thread, many thanks.

That is correct. Are you married? If I remember correctly, the minimum amount goes down to 30,000 Baht per month and there is no specific minimum tax requirement over and above the tax that you would normally pay on a 30,000 Baht salary. However, it is good to be well above the minumums, given that approval is very discretionary.

[aussiestyle1983]

Well done!

[samran]

Even though I am an overseas born with Thai nationality by decent, the getting of the ID card while when I decided to move to Thailand permanently and sounded a bit litke your experience...

Don't worry, you are on easy street now. The passport is a sinch. The 'application form' is about 4 lines long. The info is downloaded straight out of the central database, and the passport office at Chaeng Wattana is probably the best public office anywhere - in the world - in terms of efficiency and service to the public. You won't beleive that the same government who gives you the ampur office also gives you the passport office. It is like night and day.

You also won't be too much of a novelty there. My very nordic looking daughter with a Thai passport isn't as uncommon as one would think, so the officials told me. Immigration officials don't even blink when we go places with her

Congrats again.

Great posts and keep them coming!

[Krub]

Congratulations

Well done

Enjoy

[Pisith]

Hi,

congratulation on your getting Thai ID. I have a question would like to ask you. Before applying for your Thai citizen, did you have to first apply for the residency permit (being called alien) ? I've been in Thailand for 8 years now, but I have stayed here on student visa for five years and working visa for 3 years. Is it possible that I apply for the Thai citizen?

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Best regards,

[TerryLH]

"...citizenship certificate, all the other papers that accompanied it, including my certificate of residence, my alien registration certificate, my Tabien Bahn, my work permit..."

I have a question about something you wrote. Very informative, by the way.

If you are now a citizen, why do you have a work permit? Was that just left over from prior to getting the citizenship certificate, or do you still need it?

Thanks for the answer and for the report.

[samran]

"...citizenship certificate, all the other papers that accompanied it, including my certificate of residence, my alien registration certificate, my Tabien Bahn, my work permit..."

I have a question about something you wrote. Very informative, by the way.

If you are now a citizen, why do you have a work permit? Was that just left over from prior to getting the citizenship certificate, or do you still need it?

Thanks for the answer and for the report.

Like any govt department, they are going to want to see every bit of paper possible and examine it themselves. Sure you have citizenship, but they probably just wanted to make sure that everything was in order...again.

Having said that, even though I'm a natural born Thai (though I don't look it + have a Anglo/Irish name) and have a Thai ID card, I'm still asked for time to time for my work permit, even though I am Thai. Usually a bank, or a govt department. The conversation usually goes something like this:

Me: I'd like to apply for 'X' please.

Them: Sure, please give me your ID and work permit.

Me: Here is my Thai ID and my Tabieen Baan.

Them: Thank you, but we need your work permit as well.

Me: Why?

Them: Cause you need to show one.

Me: But I am Thai and have a Thai ID card which says I am Thai.

Them: So how do you work legally?

Me: Do you need a work permit to work given you are a Thai citizen??

Them:

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

flummoxed look

.

.

.

.

.

.

penny drops

.

.

.

.

Them: Ah, OK, here is the application form then.

[torrenova]

Great read and thanks for posting.

Not sure I'll ever get there as my Thai is terrible but the PR thing would be well received just from a visa point of view.

[tijnebijn]

Must be so funny inside of you sometimes heh Samran ?

They are not used to it , and are not thinking further , well you know whay I mean .

Just funny scenario , and I am just only thinking about it .....

[asiaexpat]

Hi Again All,

For those who are interested, this post covers the procedure that I followed once the Police Department had given me my certificate of citizenship, which I previously described here:

Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

A certificate of citizenship is all well and good, and looks very impressive printed on high quality thick card with various rubber stamps and a Police General's signature. However, the certificate itself is useless without the ID card that it entitles you to. It's the ID card that actually allows you to do things. Surely, I thought, all I have to do now is go to my local Ampher (disrict office), present this flashy certificate, and I will be welcomed with open arms and given an ID card in 5 minutes as a matter of formality. Well, I did get the ID card, but, as usual in Thailand, the process was entertainingly complex, to say the least. In my enthusiasm, I was forgetting that anything that I have ever done at an Ampher takes at least two attempts - the first to see exactly what this particular set of officials wants according to their own interpretation of the rather ambiguous laws; and the second attempt to provide them with the documentation in the way that they want it ...

FIRST ATTEMPT:

1) Went to my Ampher with every conceivable document along with the certificate of cisizenship, and presented it to one of the officials in the Tabien section

2) Sat there for a while and waited patiently. He looked totally confused and was frowning as he shuffled through all the papers. He got out the rule book and read it for a while. Then, he told me to go away and make photocopies of my citizenship certificate, all the other papers that accompanied it, including my certificate of residence, my alien registration certificate, my Tabien Bahn, my work permit

3) I made all the copies and went back to the same official. He made me sign all the copies, then he went away and spoke to a couple of his higher ups. After a while, he came back and told me that they have never done this before, and that they would need time to "study" the rules. He told me that I would need an interview with the boss of the Ampher. According to his interpretation of the rules, even though I had received the permission of both the King and the Interior Minister, changing my citizenship to Thai was a matter of great sensitivity and could not be done witout exhaustive checking of all my documents. He gave me a telehone number to call the following day, once he and his colleagues had taken a closer look

Needless to say, even my legendary patience in situations like these was starting to wear a little thin, but of course I kept smiling and didn't show displeasure. Looking at the dozey people in my local Ampher, who seemed to have no grasp of the rules, I called the official in the Police Department who handled my application to ask for advice. I was told to go to a different Ampher, one that is more adept at handling such applications and whose officials knew the process. This came as a surprise to me, as I thought that such a procedure could only be done at my local Ampher, but I am no expert and so I followed this advice.

SECOND ATTEMPT:

1) Went to the recommended Ampher, whereupon I was initially was told to go back to my own Ampher. Upon gentle insistence that I had been sent there, I befriended one of the officials and told him that his Ampher was specifically recommended. Now, at last, the process could begin in earnest

2) I was told to go away and make copies of every conceivable document (again)

3) I was temporarily "moved" to a Tabien Bahn within the catchment area of this new Ampher

4) I was told to go away and come back with four photos

5) I signed a whole mass of forms

6) My photo was stuck in a big book, and the official manually wrote a page-long commentary of my application

7) I was told to produce a Thai witness (apparently all first ID cards need a witness)

8) My witness (one of my friends who worked nearby) kindly arrived and filled out various forms

9) Lunch time - I was told to come back in an hour

10) Had all my forms approved by the boss of the Tabien section

11) The nationality line on my (new) Tabien Bahn was amended from my old nationality to "Thai"

11) Went to the ID card issuing section - signed more forms. Commentary of my application was written manually into another book, register style, similar to the first but a different colour. I Was asked to go away and come back with some more photocopies of sundry personal documents that were apparently missing from the first set

12) Had my photo taken against a measure to show my height. Had my thumb prints electronically read

13) Paid 25 Baht

14) Got my ID card - at last. In answer to a previous question, my citizen ID begins with the number 8

Now the cleanup - I need to move back to my old Tabien Bahn. I can do this as and when I please, and it is a simple process. Can't wait to see the faces of the people in my old Ampher when they see that I have made a pilgrimmage to a new Ampher to perform a task that they were not capable fo doing.

Thai bureacracy is an interesting mix of old and new - there are computers at the Ampher upon which citizen records are kept. The ID card was issued in 5 minutes and made on the spot using the latest technology, but only after wading through a bureacratic system that can only be described as dickensian. Oh well, I did get my ID card, and this is a once in a lifetime experience.

Cheers

Glad to hear all went well. My wife was out of thailand for an extended period and her ID card expired. It took her two weeks of endless paperwork, three trips to the office and three witness to attest that she really is Thai. All this with a vaild Thai passport and old ID card. She did finally get a new ID card.

[chatette]

I got my card yesterday, a week after registering the paper work. Would have prefered not to have had the delay but didn't want to make a fuss for an extra week when the officer was pleasant enough. Y'day's experience didn't start out pleasantly. The head of the card issuing section, to whom we were directed, arrived late, drunk, unshaven and obstreperous. HE would have to interrogate me and verify all of my paperwork (approved by his superior) before I would get a card and I could come back on another day at his convenience. We both got annoyed and pushed him to a 3 p.m. appt. he clearly had no intention of keeping as he refused to give us an interview slip. So we went back to the head of the registration section, told her of his refusal and she kindly went to tell him the application was approved by the interior minister, not him, and the paper work had been signed off by the district office head. He was cowed into submission but just as ugly as before, altho thankfully that was almost the last that we saw of him. We were given a form to fill and a queue number by the very helpful front desk staff and barely sat down to wait than we moved to the card processing officer and left by 11 a.m. with the card. It would have been an hour earlier without that ugly character who clearly was sizing us up for cash. It's really unfortunate, as he is the only such person we've struck from the outset of the long journey.

Next step: passport, which I'm aware is a breeze, and cancelling my work permit and visa. Advised the company lawyer today to proceed with the latter and got this reply:

`under the regulations of the Immigration Bureau, when we cancel your Temporary Stay Permit, you will be required to

leave Thailand within 7 days. Your case, however, is different from other general cases as you are now Thai and can arguably (my italics) stay in Thailand legally.

No argument about it in my book! The lawyer was a little chagrined when he called in response to my question why a Thai would have to leave the country

Edited November 23, 2007 by chatette

[lopburi3]

Congratulations.

Actually Thai do have to leave the country to clear they entry on non Thai entry documents, and are charged overstay if they do not. So arguably is probably the operative word in this case.

[chatette]

Thx Lopburi3. However, not arguable at all. I have not overstayed. I am canceling a valid visa and work permit I no longer require as I am now Thai.

[lopburi3]

But you may be if you do not exit the country on your old passport entry. You did not enter the country as Thai (even if you had been Thai earlier) and are currently here on a visa extension of stay. That stay/extension is normally ended by your exit of the country. Believe it is indeed arguable and could keep many barstool layers busy for an extended period.

Edit: Hopefully immigration can take care of it with some stamps but somehow I suspect they will need to get your passport status reconciled.

[paulsmithson]

Congratulations

[chatette]

Thx Paul. But I'm sorry to say there's not much scope for bar-room discussion here, Lopburi3. The perfectly valid visa in my incoming passport is cancelled by Immigration because its no longer relevant as I am now a Thai citizen and no longer require a visa (D'Oh).

Edited November 23, 2007 by chatette

[misterme]

Fantastic post and story. Threads like these are gems in the board. Nothing like personal experience to help us with our journeys.

thanks,

misterme

[LivinLOS]

Thx Paul. But I'm sorry to say there's not much scope for bar-room discussion here, Lopburi3. The perfectly valid visa in my incoming passport is cancelled by Immigration because its no longer relevant as I am now a Thai citizen and no longer require a visa (D'Oh).

Not trying to stir up an old discussion..

But I had heard of a case where a dual national Thai (as you are) entered on a non Thai passport (as you did) and left on a Thai passport by mistake.. This created a entry on a Euro passport without a corresponding exit and they did have a mess and an overstay charge.

I am thinking this sounds very very much akin to your situation. Even as a Thai national they faced overstay fees due to an open entry on a non Thai passport that had to be 'closed' by exiting the country.

[chatette]

Just to close the discussion on the question of me overstaying on a now irrelevant visa, both immigration and lawyers assure me it's impossible and there is no requirement to do anything at all as the visa is, er, now irrelevant. A Thai entering the country as the citizen of another country isn't the same circumstance at all.

[torrenova]

I think what they are trying to say is that you are currently in Thailand under a visa on your non Thai passport. Now this visa is cancelled as it is no longer required, fine. Now when you leave Thailand you will use your Thai passport unless it is a country where Thailand requires a visa for entry and you other passport does not but if you were to leave Thailand on your non Thai passport, the system would see that your visa was no longer valid and thus, you would be on an overstay on that passport.

I appreciate that legally you can no longer overstay but the paperwork does not have common sense rather just right and wrong and in this instance, your non Thai passport would potentially be flagged as overstay. Now whether this can be resolved at the airport by showing your Thai passport is the question ?

[vincent202030]

great country, happy for those who successs ....congratulations...

[dr_Pat_Pong]

great country, happy for those who successs ....congratulations...

Very patient people

[dbrenn]

I think what they are trying to say is that you are currently in Thailand under a visa on your non Thai passport. Now this visa is cancelled as it is no longer required, fine. Now when you leave Thailand you will use your Thai passport unless it is a country where Thailand requires a visa for entry and you other passport does not but if you were to leave Thailand on your non Thai passport, the system would see that your visa was no longer valid and thus, you would be on an overstay on that passport.

I appreciate that legally you can no longer overstay but the paperwork does not have common sense rather just right and wrong and in this instance, your non Thai passport would potentially be flagged as overstay. Now whether this can be resolved at the airport by showing your Thai passport is the question ?

I once read a similar post in the Phuket Gazette website. The response (from an immigration official) was that a Thai national who enters and overstays on a foreign passport is still liable to pay the fine, but can not be deported.

[dbrenn]

I got my card yesterday, a week after registering the paper work. Would have prefered not to have had the delay but didn't want to make a fuss for an extra week when the officer was pleasant enough. Y'day's experience didn't start out pleasantly. The head of the card issuing section, to whom we were directed, arrived late, drunk, unshaven and obstreperous. HE would have to interrogate me and verify all of my paperwork (approved by his superior) before I would get a card and I could come back on another day at his convenience. We both got annoyed and pushed him to a 3 p.m. appt. he clearly had no intention of keeping as he refused to give us an interview slip. So we went back to the head of the registration section, told her of his refusal and she kindly went to tell him the application was approved by the interior minister, not him, and the paper work had been signed off by the district office head. He was cowed into submission but just as ugly as before, altho thankfully that was almost the last that we saw of him. We were given a form to fill and a queue number by the very helpful front desk staff and barely sat down to wait than we moved to the card processing officer and left by 11 a.m. with the card. It would have been an hour earlier without that ugly character who clearly was sizing us up for cash. It's really unfortunate, as he is the only such person we've struck from the outset of the long journey.

Next step: passport, which I'm aware is a breeze, and cancelling my work permit and visa. Advised the company lawyer today to proceed with the latter and got this reply:

`under the regulations of the Immigration Bureau, when we cancel your Temporary Stay Permit, you will be required to

leave Thailand within 7 days. Your case, however, is different from other general cases as you are now Thai and can arguably (my italics) stay in Thailand legally.

No argument about it in my book! The lawyer was a little chagrined when he called in response to my question why a Thai would have to leave the country

Conjgratulations Khun Chalette krub .... having an ID card with all the rights that it confers is a weight off the mind.

[chatette]

Except the right to vote. Amazing! What I thought was the most basic right isn't extended for 5 years after becoming a citizen. I have been annoyed all day, even though my vote wouldn't have made the slightest difference. Would be interested if anyone else knows of countries that grant citizenship without such a basic right.

Re the visa/overstay issue. It's REALLLLLY simple: 1: you are in Thailand on a visa or permanent residency 2: Your citizenship application is approved and you become Thai. 3: Your visa/pr is automatically null and void: it is impossible to overstay something that is null and void and you can not overstay something that doesn't exist.

I don't quite understand why people are confused about this or find it a point of discussion. It is not the same as a Thai citizen entering and leaving the country on the passport of their other nationality: of course they would be subject to an overstay fine like anyone else.

[dbrenn]

Except the right to vote. Amazing! What I thought was the most basic right isn't extended for 5 years after becoming a citizen. I have been annoyed all day, even though my vote wouldn't have made the slightest difference. Would be interested if anyone else knows of countries that grant citizenship without such a basic right.

Re the visa/overstay issue. It's REALLLLLY simple: 1: you are in Thailand on a visa or permanent residency 2: Your citizenship application is approved and you become Thai. 3: Your visa/pr is automatically null and void: it is impossible to overstay something that is null and void and you can not overstay something that doesn't exist.

I don't quite understand why people are confused about this or find it a point of discussion. It is not the same as a Thai citizen entering and leaving the country on the passport of their other nationality: of course they would be subject to an overstay fine like anyone else.

Chalette, I was a bit surprised too. But in actual fact you only have Thai nationality now, and nationality strictly defined does not convey automatic voting rights. You will become a fully fledged Thai citizen in the true sense of the word in 5 years. Until then, you can do everything except vote ja.