International Fraud - how to proceed

[Liverpool Lou]

45 minutes ago, Pete70 said:

You're saying if a guy says "A", it's irrelevant that I have electronic communication that proves he originally said "B"?

 

I don't believe that can be true.

Seems that you already have the answers.    Submit your county court claim in the UK and let us know how it goes.   Don't worry about the B20,000, when you win you'll be getting back B400,000, won't you?

[Khabib]

Even with success, the best you can hope for is a legal charge against any property he has in the uk. It's unlikely a court would force the sale. Possibly, if you win, you may get the money back when it's sold (could be years). 

[Liverpool Lou]

41 minutes ago, Pete70 said:

 

Didn't make myself clear. I would expect someone to at least look at it and say "yes we'll deal with this, it's reasonable, has all the necessary proof, etc" before being forced to pay a vast sum of money.

 

You're expecting a decision from the county court on a likely judgement before going to court and paying a court fee?    What world do you live in?   Does that happen in Swiss courts?   One reason the courts ask for a small percentage fee is to deter frivolous or insubstantive claims that take up court time.

[Khabib]

Or if he has a bank account, that you know the details, and think there's money in it, the court may issue a garnishee order, which freezes the account until your paid. Is it all really going to be worth it though. The advice to take it on in Vietnam might be better.

[Liverpool Lou]

46 minutes ago, Khabib said:

... imagine the grief, paperwork, guaranteed cost with assurance of victory, going to the uk for restitution.

There's a court somewhere that gives "an assurance of victory", is there?

[Liverpool Lou]

46 minutes ago, Khabib said:

Any solicitors in the uk will say, "yes,well deal with it, now let's first discuss the deposit" 55

He wouldn't need a solicitor in the county court.

[Khabib]

1 minute ago, Liverpool Lou said:

He wouldn't need a solicitor in the county court.

To your previous post I meant no assurance, many apologies. You're correct also, he doesn't need a solicitor, but then he would have to turn up in person most likely, for any chance of success. He is a witness after all.

[Khabib]

Just imagine the fun we could have, if we could take people we didn't like to court from a remote location, based on electronic communications. It's hilarious for me.

[Roger That]

International fraud is extremely complicated. I'm afraid, for a small amount such as £9000 (I know it is a lot personally, but in the grand scheme of things it's nothing), you've got no chance via legal recourse. You'd be best to hold out and see if anything changes with your friend, although I'd imagine it won't.

 

Plenty of crypto scams get away with millions and it's very rare that anyone gets done for it anywhere (the US perhaps being an exception, so most stay away).

[Liverpool Lou]

45 minutes ago, khunPer said:

Taking into consideration that your "investment" is 400,000 baht, which I know is a relative large sum for many (also me), it might not be worth opening a case. You expenses for lawyer(s) could end up eating most of the money, and even if you win the case in a court, then it doesn't give you money in your hand. You might need to spend further funds to get money back, and can end up with a loss even if you get your initial investment back.

He's talking about using the county court for a small claim in the UK.   He wouldn't necessarily need lawyers and he just has to pay B20,000.   If he wins and the defendant doesn't pay, the court takes action to enforce it's judgement, the plaintiff doesn't pay for that. 

[Khabib]

2 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

He's talking about using the county court for a small claim in the UK.   He wouldn't necessarily need lawyers and he just has to pay B20,000.   If he wins and the defendant doesn't pay, the court takes action to enforce it's judgement, the plaintiff doesn't pay for that. 

That's all true, but who does the talking for him in the court.

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, Pete70 said:

 

It would be done in the UK, and the UK only. Law enforcement in SEA is, well, doubtful in its efficacy, at best. I wouldn't even bother trying.

 

And yes, I'd be happy to come to a solution.

 

But tell me - what's a reasonable amount of time to just sit here and wait, not knowing, not having closure?

 

For me, it was a month, and I feel like I waited far too long already.

 

Again, I'm not saying I want to wait 2 weeks and get all my money back. Just communication. That's all I was waiting for.

 

And it never happened.

 

Before you proceed with a small claims court in the UK, you will need to provide an UK address where you can be contacted and a UK address for the person that you are claiming against

You might have to go to a court hearing if the other person or business (the ‘defendant’) denies owing the money and you disagree with their response

https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money

 

[Roger That]

I suspect that small claims court won't go near anything that has even a hint of international about it, but I could be wrong.

[Khabib]

2 minutes ago, Roger That said:

I suspect that small claims court won't go near anything that has even a hint of international about it, but I could be wrong.

Roger That 555

[Khabib]

3 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Before you proceed with a small claims court in the UK, you will need to provide an UK address where you can be contacted and a UK address for the person that you are claiming against

You might have to go to a court hearing if the other person or business (the ‘defendant’) denies owing the money and you disagree with their response

https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money

 

Spot on.

[Liverpool Lou]

6 minutes ago, Khabib said:

That's all true, but who does the talking for him in the court.

What happens at the hearing

Do not go to court if you have coronavirus (COVID-19) symptoms or if you’re self-isolating or in quarantine. Tell the court if you cannot attend.

If there’s a hearing, you can:

• represent yourself
• pay for a barrister or solicitor to represent you
• ask someone to advise you in court - they do not have to be a lawyer
• ask someone to speak on your behalf - you might need to get the court’s permission

https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/what-happens-at-the-hearing

[vinny41]

11 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

He's talking about using the county court for a small claim in the UK.   He wouldn't necessarily need lawyers and he just has to pay B20,000.   If he wins and the defendant doesn't pay, the court takes action to enforce it's judgement, the plaintiff doesn't pay for that. 

If the plaintiff wants the court to take action to enforce its judgement the plaintiff will have to pay additional fees to the court

Enforce a judgment

You can ask the court to collect payment from the person or business who owes you money (the ‘debtor’) if they do not pay you after receiving the court order.

You must pay a court fee when you ask the court to collect the payment.

https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/enforce-a-judgment

 

[Khabib]

4 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

What happens at the hearing

Do not go to court if you have coronavirus (COVID-19) symptoms or if you’re self-isolating or in quarantine. Tell the court if you cannot attend.

If there’s a hearing, you can:

• represent yourself
• pay for a barrister or solicitor to represent you
• ask someone to advise you in court - they do not have to be a lawyer
• ask someone to speak on your behalf - you might need to get the court’s permission

https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/what-happens-at-the-hearing

Pete has gone quiet, I guess he feels he has gleaned as much as he can from this thread now.

[vinny41]

8 minutes ago, Roger That said:

I suspect that small claims court won't go near anything that has even a hint of international about it, but I could be wrong.

You are correct for anything international you have to apply for permission 

Providing information about yourself and the defendant full address including postcode You should provide the address including postcode for yourself and the defendant or its equivalent in any European Economic Area (EEA) state (if applicable). If an address does not have a postcode you will need to ask the judge for permission to serve the claim with this information missing. There is no additional fee for this, but the court will not allow your claim to be served without the postcode, unless you have permission from the judge. When suing or being sued

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/952020/n1a-eng.pdf

[Golden Triangle]

1 hour ago, Liverpool Lou said:

How would he be "bringing IBM into disrepute"?   This has nothing to do with IBM, it's the OP who's trying to drag IBM into it, not the Briton.

Simply because if it were to make it into the mainstream media IBM would not  be happy, multinational companies do not like adverse news about senior employees hitting the news.

I have nothing more to add and I  don't need a reply from you.

[The Theory]

7 hours ago, Pete70 said:

Note that he is by no means in financial trouble. He owns property in England and has a very well paying job working remotely for IBM in their consulting branch.

Did "he" tell you all these ? 
if yes, 

it was part of a long term scam plan.
There is one more possibility that he has lost all (your fund) by gambling or illegal investment. 
 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by The Theory

[vinny41]

16 minutes ago, The Theory said:

Did "he" tell you all these ? 
if yes, 

it was part of a long term scam plan.
There is one more possibility that he has lost all (your fund) by gambling or illegal investment. 
 

 

 

Did your read the op's 1st post where he stated this person lent him £5000 4 years ago when the op was having problems and it seem to be on a pay it back when you can

If you know any scammers that are willing to loan large amounts of money on a pay it back when you can basis maybe you can share their details with the rest of the forum

[khunPer]

46 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

He's talking about using the county court for a small claim in the UK.   He wouldn't necessarily need lawyers and he just has to pay B20,000.   If he wins and the defendant doesn't pay, the court takes action to enforce it's judgement, the plaintiff doesn't pay for that. 

That will only work if his friend lives in the UK, at the moment his friend resides in Vietnam.

 

Without a lawyer will he need to be present himself in the county court, i.e. travel expenses to UK?

[The Theory]

27 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Did your read the op's 1st post where he stated this person lent him £5000 4 years ago when the op was having problems and it seem to be on a pay it back when you can

If you know any scammers that are willing to loan large amounts of money on a pay it back when you can basis maybe you can share their details with the rest of the forum

Then how much he lost ? 555

You are absolutely right and knowledgeable. I'm sure you can help the op. not me. And what I wrote was not for you. 
 

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by The Theory

[gearbox]

1 hour ago, josthomz said:

There is no legal options here. He has your money and he will only return it when he wants (that supposing he is willing to return it, which I doubt). 

 

Your best course of action, would be having a local Vietnamese thug pay him a visit and scare him for good. 

Excellent advice, unfortunately the borders are closed. There would be plenty of options locally, lots of Russians liven there permanently too.

[Heng]

May or may not have an effect, but to me there might be a slight choke point in 'threatening' (or maybe just going through with it) to inform Vietnamese immigration of his -I'm assuming you know your best friend's full name... a threat that includes a photo might be better too- activities in detail (in English and Vietnamese) as well as the UK embassy/consulate in Vietnam.    These are the institutions that foreigners still have to regularly access and often have a slight reverence/fear towards.    (fear of a visa for a loved one to get back to the UK getting rejected, fear of whatever the Viets have that is like our 90 day reporting hoop here in the LOS, etc.)

 

Low cost (you just need to take the time to write a few letters and look up the relevant contact addresses and email addresses) and might have a good payoff.   

[DaddyWarbucks]

7 hours ago, VillageIdiot said:

Cut your losses right now.

   Legal redress in cases like this is like a mirage in the desert.

   The lawyers get the lion's share.

 

So true.                                     I    

   Growing up in and around New York City I saw a corrupt excuse for a legal system

 

   Same here. 

   The shysters do get the lion’s share... every time.

[vinny41]

56 minutes ago, The Theory said:

Then how much he lost ? 555

You are absolutely right and knowledgeable. I'm sure you can help the op. not me. And what I wrote was not for you. 
 

 

If you post or a public forum anyone can reply to your posts regardless if you agree or not to what they post

Clearly you didn't read the op's 1st post on this thread

Edited July 5, 2021 by vinny41
additional info

[ericthai]

9 hours ago, Pete70 said:

Think of it this way:

- you see a product you like on Amazon, a platform that offers you guarantees and a certain level of safety to protect your purchase

- due to the high cost, you decide to split it with a friend

- your friend then buys another product elsewhere and gets scammed

 

 

did you guys start a company? Is there a contract? If no contract you have no proof why money was sent.

Unless your "friend" is a real friend and works things out with you, I think your money is lost. 

[Paul DS]

So you invested 3rd hand in an unregulated generally untrusted investment with many crooks around, you knew you had no redress legally and now you are paying the price!

 

Crypto is mostly unregulated. Sites such as Binance are full of victims.

 

Bitcoin etc is fantasy land! Thr more it is popularised, the more scammers take your money.

 

It will be impossible to make a case...who with, contracts etc, what country, is it a regulated financial instrument? No, never!

 

It sounds like your friensd you invested in is/was trustworthy, however it is likely he is also in over his head having also been ripped off! 

 

You know of course the saying "Friends are friends and business is business and the two should never be mixed"

 

Sorry, but the saying is "If it looks to good to be true, then it's a con!"

 

Good luck!

Edited July 5, 2021 by Paul DS