Generator ATS and AVR Advice please

[Kwarium]

Gents- I’m finally giving up on PEA ever getting to the point of no more brown outs and outages here 15km south of Udon. Every time it seems better, like 3 weeks with no problem, we get a spell of 5 outages in 10 days. Longest 10 hours.

 

Thinking of a diesel generator in a purpose built shed out behind the garden. Seems to be only cheap Chinese off brands on offer, but have seen a few with 1 year warranties at least. 5.5-6.5kw should get the job done. A unit with ATS (auto start and switching) seems to cost about 6k Baht more. 25,000 - 34,000 Bt is what I’m finding online.

 

There don’t seem to be any inverter type gensets here, but a few are rated THD ~5% which would be great. Cheaper generators commonly pump out dirty (fluctuating) power which is not great. Many don’t even state having any AVR in the specs.

 

If I run the gen power through an AVR (CBC from Lazada), in addition to giving stable voltage, will it be clean power, e.g. by design low THD due to the coils? Does having an AVR preclude being concerned about dirty power? I have never used an AVR.

 

@Crossy, your regular help and advice over the years has been awesome, along with other regulars of course! Instead of getting a generator with ATS box, could your diy solution pretty much be adapted to most gensets? I recall you wrote, “It has to have key off as well as on.” Not sure how to tell what the key is actually doing?

 

I’m looking at and chatting with www.Subtanyanan.com, www.europa.com, and www.ratthanin-tools.com.

 

All help and suggestions appreciated!

K

 

Stay safe!

[carlyai]

I have a 5.5Kw Chinese branded genset with AVR and now Crossy's inspired Autostart module from the UK installed to my Automatic Transfer Switch.

I think Honda generator is probably the way to go or something with a good reputation.

You should get one with an AVR inbuilt and now auto start and Automatic Transfer Switch also included (if you can).

Also silent running (have noise reduction insulation nearly all around). Mine is also diesel and not had experience with petrol gensets but Crossy would know more about that as his is petrol.

It's great having an auto start genset as you just don't notice it and it kicks in when we have a power problem then turns of when the power restored.

Try and locate it where the exhaust fumes don't blow back into the house and I put some mice sticky sheets under it as mice did once eat out the electrical wiring. 

Mine is air cooled, water cooled may be better but don't know. 

[Crossy]

If I was doing  it now I'd go for the easy option of a silent diesel with the ATS etc. All as a package, everything you need, just add cable.

 

As to key-start/stop, if it has a lever to stop the engine it's not what you want.

[Kwarium]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

If I was doing  it now I'd go for the easy option of a silent diesel with the ATS etc. All as a package, everything you need, just add cable.

 

As to key-start/stop, if it has a lever to stop the engine it's not what you want.

@carlyai @Crossy Thanks. Diesel seems sensible to me for the task, mostly as diesel can sit in the tank for months without gelling like petrol. Am I right? Have nit seen anything water cooled unless industrial capacity and six figures. Air cooled 6-7 kw ‘silent’ already weighs in at 165kg! My concern with the silent design which has a metal box built around it and some 10 Baht foam stuck in is the thermal insulation. Not to mention that silent is a complete misnomer with any generator I’ve heard. With a purpose built shed 8 meters behind the house, hopefully a regular open chassis will run cool enough and be somewhat muffled.

 

My two big concerns are quality of unit (copper windings, decent engine, steady output circuit). The retailers so far are not willing to share much on the reliability. “Lutian is better than Kanto” is the most I’ve got so far. Of course Lutian is out of stock. So is the Urogen 8000 ATS I was considering.

 

Any comments on THD? I’m not clear if a dedicated AVR works to smoith out the 50hz waveform so that I don’t need to worry what the generator actually puts out. My Marantz home theater would love some nice clean waves!

 

Bison brand at Global house has models listing -5%THD, and Welpro are “good for computers”, so also using a decent output circuit I guess. Neither have ATS support. The Hondas bigger than 2.5kw are silly money online. No one has any stock of course.

 

Cheers.

[Crossy]

Our cheapo (petrol) Kwai Thong 6500 runs PCs with nothing more than a simple UPS between (keeps them alive whilst the beast starts), it also happily runs our Hitachi inverter A/C in the lounge, the conventional units in the bedrooms don't always start. 

 

Don't forget cheap UPS's are "modified sine" or even square wave with the associated THD, and Task A of a PC PSU is to rectify the incoming power anyway.

 

Have a look at the units from Hyundai Power, they are available with ATS etc.

 

[Kwarium]

10 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Our cheapo (petrol) Kwai Thong 6500 runs PCs with nothing more than a simple UPS between (keeps them alive whilst the beast starts), it also happily runs our Hitachi inverter A/C in the lounge, the conventional units in the bedrooms don't always start. 

 

Don't forget cheap UPS's are "modified sine" or even square wave with the associated THD, and Task A of a PC PSU is to rectify the incoming power anyway.

 

Have a look at the units from Hyundai Power, they are available with ATS etc.

 

I remember Kwai-Tong, but don’t see them anymore. I wonder if Bison is related in any way? I wish I inew why the market is saturated with house brands done up by random companies from China factories. Kanto, Jupiter, Raptor, Tosaki, Sakari, Kawama, Tiger. None of them are generator companies!

 

At least Luthian has a factory website showing they make generators. Polo, Urogen, Total, Ford, Honda are big enough companies that one could expect some level of support. However, Ford doesn’t seem to have generators anywhere else in the world, so I’m suspicious. The Hyundais in Thailand clearly state “genertor” on the side, so also doubtful.

 

Would love to find a Kubota or Yanmar generator dealer! Or Hyundai if it was not a knock off.

 

Thanks @Crossy for the details on your results. I would nit expect to run more than 1 AC, but it is conventional.

 

I may end up doing diy ATS. Couldn’t be that hard, right?

[carlyai]

Even though I've set my  frequency up for as near 50 Hz as possible over a range of loads, the UPS (on the router) still doesn't like it. So the output from the genset is not as smooth as the mains. 

Another thing I thought off is the specifications on models (at least my Chinese model) is a bit exaggerated. Says 22 Amps but engine starts to hick-up at 12 to 14A.

Bit noisy even with the soundproofing. But I think you need it if your engine is going to start at 0200hr now and again. That's if you have neighbours.

[Crossy]

48 minutes ago, Kwarium said:

I may end up doing diy ATS. Couldn’t be that hard, right?

 

Go for it, have a read of this thread if you've not already https://aseannow.com/topic/671221-build-a-low-cost-semi-automatic-generator-transfer-switch/

 

 

 

[Kwarium]

1 hour ago, carlyai said:

Even though I've set my  frequency up for as near 50 Hz as possible over a range of loads, the UPS (on the router) still doesn't like it. So the output from the genset is not as smooth as the mains. 

Another thing I thought off is the specifications on models (at least my Chinese model) is a bit exaggerated. Says 22 Amps but engine starts to hick-up at 12 to 14A.

Bit noisy even with the soundproofing. But I think you need it if your engine is going to start at 0200hr now and again. That's if you have neighbours.

I recall uou were not at 50Hz from the get-go. What brand generator? Did you get one of the “silent” models with the claddng?

 

europa.co.th has sent me to view their offerings on www.heretools.com. Looking at the Luthian LT-D5-ATS. Super Silent! Lol! Compared to what I wonder.

 

@Crossy of course I read your ats guide! Will revisit soon.

 

ps- As info, the one Honda dealer in Udon listed on the www.powerproducts.Honda.co.th page only sells weed whackers. Cannot or will not order generators. 

[Kwarium]

For those considering a generator, it seems these two suppliers carry big selections. Whether a unit is in stock is another question, maybe that is a Covid problem?

 

Www.Subtanyanan.com supplier is now using www.gen1688.com. (The Lutian LT-D5-ATS is out of stock there, too.) You can see this model on Lazada, but any images with the ‘sub’ logo came from this website.

 

www.heretools.com is the site used by www.europa.co.th. Also a big selection, including stand alone ATS units. Can chatbin English on Line. Units with ATS are all out of stock right now.

 

The big box stores seem to have fewer models than previously, Global House (Udon) has 1 of the Honda cx3000 units with 2.5kw, which is a bit small for me.

 

good luck!

[carlyai]

'I recall uou were not at 50Hz from the get-go. What brand generator? Did you get one of the “silent” models with the claddng?'

My brand is 'Doing'. Guy in Pattaya bought a container full from China so bought one of those. Think the company gone now. Wouldn't recommend them, but generators are like dogs, you love them and try and take care of them doesn't matter how much problem they are.

Bit difficult to adjust the speed to get exactly 50 Hz under no load to load conditions. Goes from 50Hz to 52Hz so OK for Isaan :).

Yes mine has cladding and in a little shed out the back of the house.

[carlyai]

Just looked at the YouTube of the machine you're thinking about and it looks good, and red too. Red always better. 

ATS on the side and fan in the back for.B43000 seems good. 2yr warranted.

I'd run it past Crossy to see what he thinks as I'm not always right. ???? 

[Kwarium]

15 minutes ago, carlyai said:

Just looked at the YouTube of the machine you're thinking about and it looks good, and red too. Red always better. 

ATS on the side and fan in the back for.B43000 seems good. 2yr warranted.

I'd run it past Crossy to see what he thinks as I'm not always right. ???? 

Wait. Red with 2 year warranty? Which one?

????

[carlyai]

1 hour ago, Kwarium said:

Wait. Red with 2 year warranty? Which one?

????

Sorry, scrolled past . Was the next one the red one.

[driver52]

@Kwariumhave you considered solar panels and batteries? Added benefit of being silent come the zombie apocalypse ????

[Kwarium]

3 hours ago, driver52 said:

@Kwariumhave you considered solar panels and batteries? Added benefit of being silent come the zombie apocalypse ????

Yes, but tell me more. Our power outage days are often dark and dreary rainy days. I don’t hink tesla walls are in Thailand or within my budget. What is plan B for storing power? We should be goid with 8 hours as a median outage time.

 

links?

[Kwarium]

8 hours ago, carlyai said:

Sorry, scrolled past . Was the next one the red one.

The Orange Kanto D5 ATS above is one of the few in stock and they are trying to raise the price 970 Baht due to the Covid economy. They do also show a red Polo, slightly larger for 43,000 Bt. I could get no clarification of what could make the Polo 14,000 Bt ‘better’. Both have 6 month warranties. Many of these random brands are made in the same town ir factory in China.

 

I did run across a Rowel with similar specs and ATS in stock with a 1 year warranty. Maybe that is actually higher quality? The supplier is www.ratthanin-tools.com and has great service chatting in English on Line. They also suffet from the current ‘no hab’ on most units which must be due to Covid economy.

 

Power was not out today but 3bb was down for 6 hours!  Can’t win! ????

 

PS- I was told Kanto and Lutian are about equally low on the quality totem pole. Very dfficult to get actual info.

[driver52]

3 minutes ago, Kwarium said:

Yes, but tell me more. Our power outage days are often dark and dreary rainy days. I don’t hink tesla walls are in Thailand or within my budget. What is plan B for storing power? We should be goid with 8 hours as a median outage time.

 

links?

yes avoid anything to do with Elon he's just out to get your cash lol

so joking apart, disclaimer I'm a techie guy rather than a solar expert but I do know that those new fangled Lifepo4 batteries are getting a lot of good press and the prices are coming down, this is one that I think @Crossy posted in another thread https://www.lazada.co.th/products/i2527489409-s8982895965.html

you need to make a list of what is important for you to keep running in a power cut and what your power requirements are?

ie here in France I'd just want to keep my fridge running, lighting wise just use led lamps and torches, they cost pennies nowadays

another requirement I can imagine out there is air con but again you can have a 'back up solution' ie something like this lol 

 

OR this vid might be worth a watch as this guy has quite a popular youtube channel and the vid is pretty recent

let us know your 'power requirements' and we can do some number crunching!

Good luck and have fun!

[carlyai]

6 hours ago, Kwarium said:

The Orange Kanto D5 ATS above is one of the few in stock and they are trying to raise the price 970 Baht due to the Covid economy. They do also show a red Polo, slightly larger for 43,000 Bt. I could get no clarification of what could make the Polo 14,000 Bt ‘better’. Both have 6 month warranties. Many of these random brands are made in the same town ir factory in China.

 

I did run across a Rowel with similar specs and ATS in stock with a 1 year warranty. Maybe that is actually higher quality? The supplier is www.ratthanin-tools.com and has great service chatting in English on Line. They also suffet from the current ‘no hab’ on most units which must be due to Covid economy.

 

Power was not out today but 3bb was down for 6 hours!  Can’t win! ????

 

PS- I was told Kanto and Lutian are about equally low on the quality totem pole. Very dfficult to get actual info.

Just Remembered.  

Bob from Buriram Ruangsangthai shop. Used to advertise gensets. Seemed like a good company but never bought anything from them. Give Bob a ring.