What Do I Do With My Dogs?

[sevenyrold]

Hi,

I have two (enormous by Thai standards) dogs around one year of age (one German Shepherd and one Golden Retreiver) in the middle of Bangkok. They are fairly well trained, in that they come immediately when I call them, understand and respond well to "stop" and "no," sit and wait before crossing any road, etc. And they are quite gentle and cowardly- they play perfectly fine with my neighbor's 1 kg dog. They will chase cats, but are too wimpy to make a real attack if they actually corner one. However, even when they were really young, about 1/3rd of Thai people would freeze in terror if my dogs walked past them. Now that they are bigger (they are actually very small for their breeds, only a little above 25 kg each) anytime I take them out for a walk I am constantly hearing (na glua, maa tua yaa maak, etc.) And since I moved two months ago to a house with a fence (I really believe fences make dogs more aggressive,) they will now bark at certain people (away from the actual house, where almost all dogs will bark at people) they don't like for whatever dumb doggy reason (drunk people, people wearing funny hats, people behind fences, people wearing tradtional Indian clothes, and most aggressively at ladyboys) Individually they might not be a problem, the German Shepherd never comes close to anyone she barks at and will only bark once or twice, then run away. The Golden Retreiver hardly barks at all, but when someone runs away from my dogs because that person is scared, the GT will sometimes give chase and jump at said person in a playful manner. People who are not particularly scared of dogs don't have a problem with their behavior, but unfortunately this absolutely terrifies some people, in this country where a large minority are really afraid of dogs.

I know most people are going to just tell me to simply put a leash on my dogs at all times, but I'm reluctant to do this for two reasons: I think always using a leash makes a dog more antisocial and intractable, because they are surronded by stimuli with which they want to but cannot interact. Two, they need their exercise and I am in the middle of a big city with no place to take them (the fenced in area is tiny and I have a busy body neighbor who gets upset if the dogs bark out there.) This is also a rare occurence as they don't bark at most people and I have pretty good control of the dogs so can call them off quickly (but sometimes too late when the person comes out of nowhere.) When it does happen, I often get a earfull of swear words, and sometimes even threats and I usually just play the dumb farang who doesn't understand a word they're saying (I'm actually now close to fluent in dog related swearing vocabularly.) Sorry for the longwinded explanation, but finally my question is does anyone have any suggestions of possible training techniques or does everyone believe it best that I just leash my dogs at all times? At the moment, I'm trying three things: I hit the dogs when they bark at someone on the street. I try to socialize the dogs with the types of people they are more likely to bark at (it's 95% Thai men.) And I take the dogs on walks in crowded areas where they see a lot of people walk past, because they will never bark at people when they are in large crowds. Any well intended advice would be greatly appreciated.

[MsFigure]

this post can't be serious because any responsible dog owner knows the importance of keeping their dogs secure within fencing on their properties as well as keeping their dogs on leash when in public ! In case you haven't done so already, maybe you should read through some very recent posts where behaviour, and the importance of fencing/restraining/keeping dogs on leash have been discussed (here and here) and you should get an idea about what some of us here (me included) think about these issues.

If you are serious, my only advice and the ONLY option you have is to keep your dogs on leashes when in public and keep them secured behind a fence on your property.

[Nienke]

Hi,

I have two (enormous by Thai standards) dogs around one year of age (one German Shepherd and one Golden Retreiver) in the middle of Bangkok. They are fairly well trained, in that they come immediately when I call them, understand and respond well to "stop" and "no," sit and wait before crossing any road, etc. And they are quite gentle and cowardly- they play perfectly fine with my neighbor's 1 kg dog. They will chase cats, but are too wimpy to make a real attack if they actually corner one. However, even when they were really young, about 1/3rd of Thai people would freeze in terror if my dogs walked past them. Now that they are bigger (they are actually very small for their breeds, only a little above 25 kg each) anytime I take them out for a walk I am constantly hearing (na glua, maa tua yaa maak, etc.) And since I moved two months ago to a house with a fence (I really believe fences make dogs more aggressive,) they will now bark at certain people (away from the actual house, where almost all dogs will bark at people) they don't like for whatever dumb doggy reason (drunk people, people wearing funny hats, people behind fences, people wearing tradtional Indian clothes, and most aggressively at ladyboys) Individually they might not be a problem, the German Shepherd never comes close to anyone she barks at and will only bark once or twice, then run away. The Golden Retreiver hardly barks at all, but when someone runs away from my dogs because that person is scared, the GT will sometimes give chase and jump at said person in a playful manner. People who are not particularly scared of dogs don't have a problem with their behavior, but unfortunately this absolutely terrifies some people, in this country where a large minority are really afraid of dogs.

I know most people are going to just tell me to simply put a leash on my dogs at all times, but I'm reluctant to do this for two reasons: I think always using a leash makes a dog more antisocial and intractable, because they are surronded by stimuli with which they want to but cannot interact. Two, they need their exercise and I am in the middle of a big city with no place to take them (the fenced in area is tiny and I have a busy body neighbor who gets upset if the dogs bark out there.) This is also a rare occurence as they don't bark at most people and I have pretty good control of the dogs so can call them off quickly (but sometimes too late when the person comes out of nowhere.) When it does happen, I often get a earfull of swear words, and sometimes even threats and I usually just play the dumb farang who doesn't understand a word they're saying (I'm actually now close to fluent in dog related swearing vocabularly.) Sorry for the longwinded explanation, but finally my question is does anyone have any suggestions of possible training techniques or does everyone believe it best that I just leash my dogs at all times? At the moment, I'm trying three things: I hit the dogs when they bark at someone on the street. I try to socialize the dogs with the types of people they are more likely to bark at (it's 95% Thai men.) And I take the dogs on walks in crowded areas where they see a lot of people walk past, because they will never bark at people when they are in large crowds. Any well intended advice would be greatly appreciated.

Hi,

In stead of giving step by step tips on how to modify your dogs (and your) behavior, I strongly suggest to contact Mr. Patrick. He seems to be an American, lives in BKK and does dog training.

I don't have his address or phone number, but he is highly recommended in the pinned subject on importing dogs. PM the person who recommends him for his phone number.

You can also contact Soi Dog Rescue in BKK, as he seems to help them out as well.

Dogs that bark at certain people are not well socialized, meaning that your dogs are not well-socialized with (in their minds) strange things, such as hats or different from the usual outfits, and peculiar behavior (ladyboys). I agree with the fence thing so far, the a fence means the border of the territory and there's where most agression occurs. Dogs that will chase after people and even jump on them, are NOT under 100% command of their owner and show predatory behavior. Can imagine that that's something that scares the crap out of people. The danger in this part is that your adolecent dog can learn that he can 'control' his environment.

Hitting a dog when showing undesired behavior towards strangers can INCREASE in stead of decrease the behavior, as the dog can start associating the stranger/s with the punishment (hitting in this case, but it can also be any other kind of correction, such as a jerk on a choke chain). Following, the dog wants the stranger to be as far as possible in order to avoid the punishment, meaning that their undesired behavior can start sooner and sooner. It also breaks their trust in you, which is especially in your GSD's case not desirable because s/he already shows a shy behavior.

Taking them into crowded are's can be a good thing to do, but it can also be too much for the dog/s resulting in an increase of fear (aggressive) behavior. I can imagine that GR would be ok with this, but that it can be a quite scary experience for your shy GSD. But to say exactly which one it is I can't as I don't know the dogs and the situation.

Socializing your dogs with those they tend to bark at the most is a VERY good thing to do IF you do it in the proper way.

All the abovementioned is NOT meant ot critize you (on the contrary, after all you wrote to this forum in order to seek help), but meant as an explanation to urge you to seek direct guidance in modifying your dogs behavior with somebody who can see you, your dogs, the interaction between you and your dogs and knows about dog behavior (development AND modication techniques), and not through a forum where people most probably will give you all well-intentioned advices, but don't know (I repeat) you, your dogs, the interaction between you and the dogs in normal daily life and during the abovementioned encounters.

From what I've understood (again I don't know the person, have it only from hear-say/read), Mr. Patrick seems to be a good dog trainer/behaviorist to contact.

Wish you good luck,

Nienke

[sevenyrold]

this post can't be serious because any responsible dog owner knows the importance of keeping their dogs secure within fencing on their properties as well as keeping their dogs on leash when in public ! In case you haven't done so already, maybe you should read through some very recent posts where behaviour, and the importance of fencing/restraining/keeping dogs on leash have been discussed (here and here) and you should get an idea about what some of us here (me included) think about these issues.

If you are serious, my only advice and the ONLY option you have is to keep your dogs on leashes when in public and keep them secured behind a fence on your property.

To clarify, no, they are never let out alone, but I do want to take my dogs off the leash so they run and play together. In a city full of feral soi dogs who are obviously not on a leash, I think this is reasonable IF the dogs are not causing any problems. The area that is fenced in is too small for them to run in, and my neighbors (very close promixity) do not appreciate my leaving them outdoors because they will bark at anything that walks past my property and make quite a bit of noise. As for it being absolutely necessary to keep the dogs on a leash at all times, I think it depends on the dog. Obviously if you cannot control your dog and he runs away or if he is a biter, he should not be allowed off the leash. However my dogs do neither, just bark at people rarely (probably happens once a week, which is still not acceptable, because this really does frighten some people.) Where I grew up, the norm was to take dogs on walks off the leash (and I do not think we were all irresponsible pet owners as you assert,) and my previous dogs never barked at people who were not on their property. I am not trying to be an inconsiderate jerk who unleashes my wild dogs into the neighborhood to go terrorize children and kill other people's pets, and am prepared to keep them on a leash at all times if I cannot solve this problem...

[elfe]

hi

my first thought was move to another house with bigger garden and less neighbours, but certainly in bkk not so easy...

so, for a start, to be able to let your dogs run and play freely, why not join a dog club in bkk where they have plenty of space and even swimming pools for the dogs? so you could spend a relaxed time with your dogs and they can exercise and get tired

don't unleash your dogs please, to prevent problems for your dogs, yourself and others!!

nienke's advice about mr patrick sounds very good!

good luck!

[sevenyrold]

Hi,

In stead of giving step by step tips on how to modify your dogs (and your) behavior, I strongly suggest to contact Mr. Patrick. He seems to be an American, lives in BKK and does dog training.

I don't have his address or phone number, but he is highly recommended in the pinned subject on importing dogs. PM the person who recommends him for his phone number.

You can also contact Soi Dog Rescue in BKK, as he seems to help them out as well.

Dogs that bark at certain people are not well socialized, meaning that your dogs are not well-socialized with (in their minds) strange things, such as hats or different from the usual outfits, and peculiar behavior (ladyboys). I agree with the fence thing so far, the a fence means the border of the territory and there's where most agression occurs. Dogs that will chase after people and even jump on them, are NOT under 100% command of their owner and show predatory behavior. Can imagine that that's something that scares the crap out of people. The danger in this part is that your adolecent dog can learn that he can 'control' his environment.

Hitting a dog when showing undesired behavior towards strangers can INCREASE in stead of decrease the behavior, as the dog can start associating the stranger/s with the punishment (hitting in this case, but it can also be any other kind of correction, such as a jerk on a choke chain). Following, the dog wants the stranger to be as far as possible in order to avoid the punishment, meaning that their undesired behavior can start sooner and sooner. It also breaks their trust in you, which is especially in your GSD's case not desirable because s/he already shows a shy behavior.

Taking them into crowded are's can be a good thing to do, but it can also be too much for the dog/s resulting in an increase of fear (aggressive) behavior. I can imagine that GR would be ok with this, but that it can be a quite scary experience for your shy GSD. But to say exactly which one it is I can't as I don't know the dogs and the situation.

Socializing your dogs with those they tend to bark at the most is a VERY good thing to do IF you do it in the proper way.

All the abovementioned is NOT meant ot critize you (on the contrary, after all you wrote to this forum in order to seek help), but meant as an explanation to urge you to seek direct guidance in modifying your dogs behavior with somebody who can see you, your dogs, the interaction between you and your dogs and knows about dog behavior (development AND modication techniques), and not through a forum where people most probably will give you all well-intentioned advices, but don't know (I repeat) you, your dogs, the interaction between you and the dogs in normal daily life and during the abovementioned encounters.

From what I've understood (again I don't know the person, have it only from hear-say/read), Mr. Patrick seems to be a good dog trainer/behaviorist to contact.

Wish you good luck,

Nienke

Hi,

Thank you for the response. Yes, you may be right that hitting them is counterproductive as the problem is fear/behavior related and not really to do with discipline/authority. At first I did not hit them for this, but as the problem grew, I thought maybe I could try the "it's not acceptable to do that" approach, rather than just getting them to love all people. They are actually very good with people, even the ones they bark at after they have smelled the person...They also do very well in crowds, because I started taking them at a young age, specifically to prevent this sort of problem and at first it seemed to work very well. I think the problem stems from the fact that they now spend most of their days indoors staring out over the fence at a lot of things they would like to go interact with...I didn't quite understand what you mean by socializing my dogs in "the right way," so let me tell you the way I do it. Since the vast vast majority of the people they bark at are young men, I ask security guards (who ask me about my dogs, as many do) if they wouldn't mind petting them. The GSD will sometimes bark at him at first, but she's actually the one who is happier to petted by strangers- the GT doesn't seem to care one way or the other.

Also thanks for the info about the dog trainer- I actually did contact one a while back, but he wasn't very good. He was very impressed that my dogs obeyed "come" and "sit" so well, and then told me the only thing left to teach them was to "attack" on my command

[Nienke]

Hi,

Thank you for the response. Yes, you may be right that hitting them is counterproductive as the problem is fear/behavior related and not really to do with discipline/authority. At first I did not hit them for this, but as the problem grew, I thought maybe I could try the "it's not acceptable to do that" approach, A 'distract and then reward for good behavior' approach will in IMO lead faster to desired beahvior, and is nicer to your dogsrather than just getting them to love all people. They are actually very good with people, even the ones they bark at after they have smelled the person...They also do very well in crowds, because I started taking them at a young age, specifically to prevent this sort of problem and at first it seemed to work very well. I think the problem stems from the fact that they now spend most of their days indoors staring out over the fence at a lot of things they would like to go interact with...I think you make a good point there. Being confined to one area for long periods of time can increase territorial aggression and boundary frustrations. Is it possible to take them out more often during the day? or take them to doggy places, such as Elfie mentioned? I've heard good comments on Pet Paradise (google for their website) I didn't quite understand what you mean by socializing my dogs in "the right way," so let me tell you the way I do it. Since the vast vast majority of the people they bark at are young men, I ask security guards (who ask me about my dogs, as many do) if they wouldn't mind petting them. The GSD will sometimes bark at him at first, but she's actually the one who is happier to petted by strangers- the GT doesn't seem to care one way or the other. This comes across to me that your GR is much more confident and your GSD needs more confirmation as she is shy by nature. This means that they need diffrent approaches in training and behavior modification

Also thanks for the info about the dog trainer- I actually did contact one a while back, but he wasn't very good. He was very impressed that my dogs obeyed "come" and "sit" so well, and then told me the only thing left to teach them was to "attack" on my command Wow, some people are real jokes Anyway, with your approach, intention and the things you have done till now, I truely believe with a little guidance you will quickly turn your dogs in nice pets.

Nienke:jap:

[sevenyrold]

The one thing I'm concerned about with the "A 'distract and then reward for good behavior' approach" is that I've seen it act as a positive reinforcement for dogs acting aggressively, especially small dogs, whose owners sometimes overindulge/overprotect and turn them into little beasts that cling to their owner and growl and bark at everything...And if they're truly distracted, won't they just bark the next time when someone pops out from a gate?

Part of the problem, I think, is Bangkok people are often overly fearful of big dogs- if I'd known beforehand I would've gotten smaller dogs (although then I'd constantly be worried about soi dogs killing them.)

I take them out 3-4 times a day for 15-30 minutes each time, which is already a large amount of my free time, but I think even if I doubled that amount they still would be spending the vast majority of their day staring out at the fenced away road very close to them (and all my neighbors, cats, dogs, and cars moving just beyond their reach...) Thanks for the info about the parks, but I don't think any of them are close enough for me to make it to with any regularity, but will look into it...I'm near Ekamai, you don't know of anything there do you?

I assume from your posts that you have dogs Nienke? If you walk them, do you use a leash? Are you also of the opinion that EVERY dog in public needs to be leashed? I always thought that the fewer physical ways (leash, cage etc) you use to control your dogs the better you can actually control them. I once adopted a two year dog that obviously been caged up most of her life and she was completely untrainable...But then again, I grew up in a somewhat rural environment where everyone not only knew my first name, but also the names of all my dogs...so maybe it's time I adapt to city life and leash them on walks.

Thanks again for all the advice...

[Nienke]

The one thing I'm concerned about with the "A 'distract and then reward for good behavior' approach" is that I've seen it act as a positive reinforcement for dogs acting aggressively, especially small dogs, whose owners sometimes overindulge/overprotect and turn them into little beasts that cling to their owner and growl and bark at everything...Those owners react on the fear behavior of the dog, and thus reinforce this behavior. These dogs growl and bark because they are scred. And if they're truly distracted, won't they just bark the next time when someone pops out from a gate? Not when you do it correctly.

Part of the problem, I think, is Bangkok people are often overly fearful of big dogs- if I'd known beforehand I would've gotten smaller dogs (although then I'd constantly be worried about soi dogs killing them.)

I take them out 3-4 times a day for 15-30 minutes each time, which is already a large amount of my free time, but I think even if I doubled that amount they still would be spending the vast majority of their day staring out at the fenced away road very close to them (and all my neighbors, cats, dogs, and cars moving just beyond their reach...) Thanks for the info about the parks, but I don't think any of them are close enough for me to make it to with any regularity, but will look into it...I'm near Ekamai, you don't know of anything there do you?No, sorry, live in Chiang Mai

I assume from your posts that you have dogs Nienke? Three of my own: 2 GSD's (10 and 5 yrs old)and 1 Rottie (11 yrs old), the rest are customers dogs. Whne you click on my name and go to my profile, then click on my website, you can see who i am and what I do for a living. If you walk them, do you use a leash? Depends where I walk my dogs. Customer dogs in training are ALWAYS on a leash. I've got short leashes of about 1 1/2 to 2 meters and long leashes of 5 and 10 meterAre you also of the opinion that EVERY dog in public needs to be leashed? If in crowded area's such as shopping areas or close to roads, yes, always on the leash. We are talking 'dog', they don't know the dangers of traffic etc (with the exception of some dogs, usually those that have experienced (near) accidents) I always thought that the fewer physical ways (leash, cage etc) you use to control your dogs the better you can actually control them. Correct. A dog is really under 'control', when it also obeys without physical restriction. But then still, it's a dog. It always can happen that they get a sudden fright or a cat flashes by and gone is the dog in a split second. That this happens as well with your dogs, you told us in a former post; when somebody suddenly runs by, coming out-of-the-blue. What if ... s/he runs after this person on the road and a car passes at that exact moment? I once adopted a two year dog that obviously been caged up most of her life and she was completely untrainable...But then again, I grew up in a somewhat rural environment where everyone not only knew my first name, but also the names of all my dogs...so maybe it's time I adapt to city life and leash them on walks.

Thanks again for all the advice...You're very welcome

Nienke

[MsFigure]

Sevenyrold, I can honestly understand and see your point in your wanting to allow your dogs to run around off leash (I wish I could do it too with my dogs) but while you may be absolutely positive that your dog wouldn't harm anyone or any animal - the same can not be said for the dogs that your dog can come in contact with. Also because your dogs are still young, they will go through that adolescent stage when hormones will kick in and they may act differently by challenging other dogs. I'm not saying they will do it, but there is a good possibility it could happen. So many things can go wrong in a split second without any warning and totally unexpected.

An example of this : A good friend of ours had a rott that he walked every where with - this rott had been socialised with people and other dogs since he was a pup,and was trouble free during his adolescence and as an adult dog. The only problem anyone had with the dog was the amount he drooled on you

One day during one of his daily walks, his rott was attacked by a boxer (I know we were shocked because we always thought if he was going to have any problems it would've been with one of the hundreds of feral aggressive soi dogs that he walked past every day) whose farang owner was walking off-leash because (according to the owner) his boxer was a "friendly wouldn't-harm-a-fly" dog and never aggressive or attacked anything before. Now I personally knew the rottweiler in question and his temperament - As for the boxer, i wouldn't know if the dog was as it's owner said "a friendly non aggressive dog", or if the owner was just saying that to cover his assss - so it's impossible for me to say exactly what caused the boxer to attack our friends rott; but one thing I can be positive of is that, had the boxer been on a leash in the first place - the injuries the rott received could've been avoided.

The main reason I'm so in favour of keeping dogs restrained especially in public is for the dogs protection. I know my dogs, and I especially know what they are capable of but I can in no way possibly know what other dogs are like. You can read the body language and try to avoid certain situations like walking the other side of the road if you see a dog running free, but that is made so much harder if people are walking their dogs off leash who CAN'T control their dogs have their dogs deciding he doesn't like and wants to challenge your dog and so you end up with a situation that could one or both dogs hurt or involve people trying to separate be badly hurt in the process of trying to separate them.

Also with the leash use, it should be used without them pulling on it. Our dogs would walk right by our side with absolutely no pulling/restraining the dog to keep them by our side, and it was like they were walking without one - but to know that if anything did come up, I could still have total control over my own dog - whether it was shortening the lead to keep the dog from going any further than I would like or a quick tug to get their attention or to let them know that certain behaviour is not acceptable ie. if they barked at things (certain people, etc). Also people you may in contact with would be more comfortable and less fearful of your dogs. I've had dogs all my life and not scared of dogs, but one thing that scares the crap out of me is seeing someone coming towards me without their dogs being leashed. How am I to know if the dog is friendly or ready to start trouble? You can try to read the signs between your and the strange dog, but I've also seen seemingly friendly dogs (displaying all the happy signals) get up close and then suddenly take an instant dislike to each other and then attack.

[sceadugenga]

Big dogs and cities eh? A very volatile mix.

You should keep your dogs on a lead when they're out side the house. Seeing your land lord about raising the height of the fence could be an option, you'd have to pay for it of course!

My dog's about the size of a small whippet, he gets two good walks in the village everyday, about 2 km each, as fast as a fat old man can walk, and at least once a week a trip to the Khun Kon National park and waterfall where he can run his little heart out.

[Jet Gorgon]

Big dogs and cities eh? A very volatile mix.

You should keep your dogs on a lead when they're out side the house. Seeing your land lord about raising the height of the fence could be an option, you'd have to pay for it of course!

My dog's about the size of a small whippet, he gets two good walks in the village everyday, about 2 km each, as fast as a fat old man can walk, and at least once a week a trip to the Khun Kon National park and waterfall where he can run his little heart out.

You old and fat, Scea?

[sceadugenga]

Big dogs and cities eh? A very volatile mix.

You should keep your dogs on a lead when they're out side the house. Seeing your land lord about raising the height of the fence could be an option, you'd have to pay for it of course!

My dog's about the size of a small whippet, he gets two good walks in the village everyday, about 2 km each, as fast as a fat old man can walk, and at least once a week a trip to the Khun Kon National park and waterfall where he can run his little heart out.

You old and fat, Scea?

Never came naturally Jet, I had to work on it for years.